Canadian Politics Thread

[UnkNuk]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Yes, that was when Chretien was elected.  That is what he inherited.  By the time he left office we had balanced budgets.

 

In comparison, Trudeau actually inherited a balanced budget, and now after 8 years we are in a $40 billion deficit. Do you see the difference?  Trudeau did the exact opposite that Chretien did. 

 

Sure.  But, then, I'm not trying to defend Trudeau here.  

 

I agree that we should be paying attention to the national debt and the interest payments it incurs.  And the question is:  how are we going to bring them under control?

 

I'm suggesting it may be through a combination of tax reform (possibly including such things as higher marginal tax rates on high income earners and possibly a wealth tax on the very rich) and curbing government waste.

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

Sure.  But, then, I'm not trying to defend Trudeau here.  

 

I agree that we should be paying attention to the national debt and the interest payments it incurs.  And the question is:  how are we going to bring them under control?

 

I'm suggesting it may be through a combination of tax reform (possibly including such things as higher marginal tax rates on high income earners and possibly a wealth tax on the very rich) and curbing government waste.

 

That’s not what Chretien did.  He didn’t implement a wealth tax to pay off the debt.  He also didn’t raise the marginal tax rates.  He had a guy named Paul Martin as his finance minister who actually understood accounting and finance. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/02/28/canada-unveils-deficit-cutting-budget/9a5058ea-b7da-40a7-be16-29673128d145/

 

Prime Minister Jean Chretien, beset by a federal deficit that is among the largest in the industrial world, proposed a new budget today that provides for massive cuts in spending and includes a 15 percent reduction in the number of government employees.

 

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/joseph-jacques-jean-chretien

 

Canada in 1993 had high taxes, a high national debt and an alarming annual deficit. Chrétien made it a priority to cut or limit federal programs, including subsidies to the provinces, and to eliminate the deficit. The Liberals also kept the unpopular Goods and Services Tax (GST), even though Chrétien had once promised to abolish it. Fortunately for Chrétien, economic conditions were good, and revenues rose. In 1998, Canada registered its first surplus in nearly 30 years. In spite of the Liberal budget cuts, Chrétien and his finance minister, Paul Martin, enjoyed high public approval in comparison to the political opposition, which remained in disarray.

 

The only thing that Chretien did tax wise was he kept the GST.  Of course he was never gonna get rid of it.  No government ever would.  The revenue is too good.  However, he never raised taxes at all and got us out of a huge deficit within 5 years. 

[Super19]

At least we are not in America's crappy situation regarding national debt.

 

Instead of taxing the poor more, govt should tighten up their spending. Then we can talk about tax reform. Fair? @Elias Pettersson

 

 

[Future Considerations]

42 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

Sure.  But, then, I'm not trying to defend Trudeau here.  

 

I agree that we should be paying attention to the national debt and the interest payments it incurs.  And the question is:  how are we going to bring them under control?

 

I'm suggesting it may be through a combination of tax reform (possibly including such things as higher marginal tax rates on high income earners and possibly a wealth tax on the very rich) and curbing government waste.

Less government please.  

[JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo]

How much debt can be attributed to the pandemic? How have other countries faired under the same circumstances? 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

At least we are not in America's crappy situation regarding national debt.

 

Instead of taxing the poor more, govt should tighten up their spending. Then we can talk about tax reform. Fair? @Elias Pettersson

 

 

 

Yeah, sure...

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

How much debt can be attributed to the pandemic? How have other countries faired under the same circumstances? 

 

Canada’s spending and deficits higher than comparable countries during pandemic | Fraser Institute

 

Governments around the world have significantly ramped up spending due to the COVID-19 recession. However, recent data from the International Monetary Fund’s semi-annual fiscal monitor reveals that Canada has largely outpaced other countries in the scale of both spending and deficits.

In its fiscal monitor, the IMF estimates the level of net borrowing (deficits)—across all levels of government—as a share of the economy for 35 high-income countries in 2020. Among this group, Canada has the highest deficit-to-GDP ratio at 19.9 per cent (see first chart below). To put this in perspective, Canada’s net borrowing is more than double the ratio of Germany and triple that of Sweden and Ireland. Furthermore, Canada ranks higher than the United States (18.7 per cent), United Kingdom (16.4 per cent) and is almost double that of Australia (10.1 per cent), which has a similar economy to Canada.

 

The scale of government spending in Canada raises additional concerns for the future given that research on the optimal size of government (relative to economic growth and social progress) demonstrates that the optimal size of government ranges between 24 per cent and 32 per cent of the economy in terms of maximizing rates of economic growth. At nearly 60 per cent of GDP, the size of government in Canada is almost double the optimal level for economic growth, which means concerted efforts are needed to reduce the share of the economy represented by government spending.

 

 

Moreover, there are concerns that Canadian governments have given little attention to targeting assistance and may be wasting money by focusing on expediency rather than efficiency and effectiveness in spending. For instance, a recent study estimates that Ottawa has spent up to $22.3 billion in poorly targeted assistance during the pandemic.

 

This includes $503.5 million in Canada Child Benefit (CCB) payments to families with more than $100,000 in income in 2019 and about $12 billion spent on the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) for nearly one million young people aged 15 to 24 who live at home with their parents in households with incomes of at least $100,000 (2019).

 

Other potential wasteful spending includes $7.0 billion in CERB for spouses in families with at least $100,000 in income, $1.6 billion on the Canada Emergency Student Benefit (CESB) for students living in families with more than $100,000 in household income, and $1.4 billion in onetime payments to seniors ineligible for the Guaranteed Income Supplement (GIS).

 

Simply put, Canadian governments have spent considerably more money (mostly borrowed) than comparable countries around the world—with plenty of potential wasteful spending—while at the same time achieving relatively poor economic performance.

[Boudrias]

14 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

That's a great way to ensure wealth leaves the country 

$100 billion a year leaves Canada. Canada is now the USA's #2 trading partner as Mexico has surged ahead. Canada's industrial policy has been outsourced to the Americans for decades and continues to be. I like Americans but Canadians are making a big mistake in assuming they have our best interests at heart. A strong Canada is not in the USA's best interest. Many on here think that NAFTA #2 was a win for Canada during the Trump era. I have no idea why they would think so. Mexico thru Canada under the bus by signing a unilateral deal with the USA and then Trump told Canada to sign it as well or walk. Progressives were entralled by the Biden victory and Biden returned the favor by immediately cancelling Keystone XL and by passing the American First legislation that froze Canada out of markets that were guaranteed under NAFTA. Keystone XL cancellation was another NAFTA violation. America rewards Canada by importing Venezulan and Saudi oil. A weak Canada is in American interests as they can dictate when and what resources and production they allow into the USA and at what price. 

 

The solution to much of Canada's problems always resided with energy export. Getting energy to tidewater was more than an economic benefit it was a national security issue IMHO. Yes, it would eliminate much of the WTI/WCS deferential which amounts to $10 of billions. More importantly it would provide a counter to American influence. Canadian energy policy has in essence driven many producer and infrastructure companies out of Canada. TRP and ENB are pretty much American companies now.       

[RupertKBD]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Well if rich people are so smart and can influence government, then why did we elect a poor school teacher to run the country?

 

Maybe we should be electing rich people to run the country…

 

Because that worked out so well for the Yanks....

 

BTW: Kevin O'Leary, (aka "Mr. Wonderful") once ran for the leadership of the Conservative party, but dropped out because he didn't think he could beat the School Teacher....

[bishopshodan]

The Fraser Institute....That's the same group that released the map of the most free regions to live in N.A.?

 

Yeah, can't be bothered to read EP's post above. 

 

Tax the rich. It's getting silly.

 

 

 

[Bob Long]

41 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

$100 billion a year leaves Canada.

 

yep, have watched this for years in med tech. Its so ingrained now that many Canadian med tech start ups just have moving or selling to the US as part of the plan from the outset. 

 

41 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

 

Canada is now the USA's #2 trading partner as Mexico has surged ahead. Canada's industrial policy has been outsourced to the Americans for decades and continues to be. I like Americans but Canadians are making a big mistake in assuming they have our best interests at heart. A strong Canada is not in the USA's best interest. Many on here think that NAFTA #2 was a win for Canada during the Trump era. I have no idea why they would think so. Mexico thru Canada under the bus by signing a unilateral deal with the USA and then Trump told Canada to sign it as well or walk.

 

I'd argue you on this one, we were in a very difficult situation with nafta 2.0 and didn't lose any ground to either partner, in terms of the trade policies. Mexico's attempt really didn't gain them anything, they've been primed to benefit from anti-China sentiment to try to bring more manufacturing back to North America. We've been asleep at the switch on manufacturing for a long time now so thats not new.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

 

Progressives were entralled by the Biden victory and Biden returned the favor by immediately cancelling Keystone XL and by passing the American First legislation that froze Canada out of markets that were guaranteed under NAFTA. Keystone XL cancellation was another NAFTA violation. America rewards Canada by importing Venezulan and Saudi oil. A weak Canada is in American interests as they can dictate when and what resources and production they allow into the USA and at what price. 

 

I know, every time a democrat wins in the US Canadians on the left celebrate, but they just become more protectionist. Biden has also been happy to keep Canada on the sidelines of Pacific trade as well. 

 

41 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

 

The solution to much of Canada's problems always resided with energy export. Getting energy to tidewater was more than an economic benefit it was a national security issue IMHO. Yes, it would eliminate much of the WTI/WCS deferential which amounts to $10 of billions. More importantly it would provide a counter to American influence. Canadian energy policy has in essence driven many producer and infrastructure companies out of Canada. TRP and ENB are pretty much American companies now.       

 

its a big part, for sure. 

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

The Fraser Institute....That's the same group that released the map of the most free regions to live in N.A.?

 

Yeah, can't be bothered to read EP's post above. 

 

Tax the rich. It's getting silly.

 

 

 

 

its difficult to talk about this without being accused of sticking up for someone avoiding taxation. 

 

Very rich folks have mobility, they can and will go wherever they want to. If Canada makes it uncomfortable, they'll go elsewhere. Its not really a solution to anything imo. 

 

Sure go ahead and try I guess. I suspect nothing comes of it.

 

We have so many things we can do for more effective services than this idea, but imo its such an attractive idea it lets our governments off the hook for shitty management. 

[Bob Long]

9 hours ago, UnkNuk said:

So, yes, the current interest payments on the debt are worrisome.  But we made our way out of a worse mess years ago.  Hopefully we can do the same again.

 

"hopefully"

 

Who is going to do this? 

[bishopshodan]

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

its difficult to talk about this without being accused of sticking up for someone avoiding taxation. 

 

Very rich folks have mobility, they can and will go wherever they want to. If Canada makes it uncomfortable, they'll go elsewhere. Its not really a solution to anything imo. 

 

Sure go ahead and try I guess. I suspect nothing comes of it.

 

We have so many things we can do for more effective services than this idea, but imo its such an attractive idea it lets our governments off the hook for shitty management. 

 

The income inequality in Canada is growing, it is getting worse.

 

Something has to be done at some point. 

 

Edit:

I just read this...this dude has some decent points.

 

https://irpp.org/research-studies/whats-so-bad-about-increasing-inequality-in-canada/#:~:text=In Canada%2C the income gap,large and growing steadily larger.

Edited November 23, 2023 by bishopshodan

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

The income inequality in Canada is growing, it is getting worse.

 

interesting article on this topic: https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/caninequality-aspx/

 

Taxation is certainly part of it, but there's a lot more going on with the gap. It can be fixed though. 

 

4 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Something has to be done at some point. 

 

It does, but the wealth gap is just one element. We have so many things we've been dropping the ball on in Canada. We need to restructure how we deliver services like healthcare, even with more taxes on the rich we can't continue this way. 

[bishopshodan]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

interesting article on this topic: https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/caninequality-aspx/

 

Taxation is certainly part of it, but there's a lot more going on with the gap. It can be fixed though. 

 

 

It does, but the wealth gap is just one element. We have so many things we've been dropping the ball on in Canada. We need to restructure how we deliver services like healthcare, even with more taxes on the rich we can't continue this way. 

Ha.

I just added an article to my above post for you too...

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

We have so many things we've been dropping the ball on in Canada. We need to restructure how we deliver services like healthcare, even with more taxes on the rich we can't continue this way. 

I agree with this btw. no doubt

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Ha.

I just added an article to my above post for you too...

 

yea its not simple. Yes adjust the tax system. But then what? it seems pretty clear we need more highly skilled workers, but also focused on sectors that make sense for us. 

 

Boud's is correct, we need to get out of our own way on energy too. 

[Bob Long]

20 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Ha.

I just added an article to my above post for you too...

 

good read. 

 

If I could corner a politician, I'd be pushing them on the "then what" portion of this issue. A simple taxation adjustment is just the start.

 

[The Arrogant Worms]

 

[The Arrogant Worms]

[King Heffy]

16 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

Ohh yes, the same guy who supported terrorists who occupied Ottawa and had a large weapons stash seized by the police in Alberta.  We can definitely trust him to keep us safe.

[Gurn]

It can't happen here, we aren't like the folk down south----until some of us are;

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/conservative-senator-from-manitoba-apologizes-for-losing-my-cool-on-senate-floor/ar-AA1kqzKN?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=7d413822f6304879a53ecd7293c97bbd&ei=67

"OTTAWA — Conservative Sen. Don Plett apologized Thursday after two female senators accused him of physical intimidation and verbal harassment in the Senate chamber during debate on a carbon pricing bill earlier this month.

With trembling hands and a voice shaking through tears, the Manitoba senator said his behaviour that day was not acceptable."

---------------------------------------------------------

"Saint-Germain and Clement also said some senators shared a social media post that they believe was the impetus for a barrage of hateful phone calls, including one that compelled Clement to leave her home on the advice of police."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Conservative House leader Andrew Scheer posted Clement's photo and contact information, along with the details of Sen. Chantal Petitclerc, on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter. The post urged people to call them to ask why they were shutting down debate."

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more at link!

[the destroyer of worlds]

Ya, f this moron.

 

 

 

[the destroyer of worlds]

Just in time for the new year.  Since oil is around $80, the full 13 cents will be applied.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/gas-tax-returns-2024-danielle-smith-1.7037848

Pumped up: Alberta gas tax slated to return in January

Premier Danielle Smith says lower oil prices spell end for fuel tax break