Canadian Politics Thread

[Boudrias]

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I agree with you on this.  The problem is there is not a good option on the Liberal side either.  People can defend Trudeau and Freeland until they are blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that we are almost $1.3 trillion in debt and have a $50 billion interest payment due every year now just to pay the debt.  And that interest payment is growing each day and will be $60 billion in a couple of years.  That's money that we have to raise via taxes that won't be going to any social services or to medical care.  It's basically money thrown out the window.  It's like burning it in a fire pit.

 

All I see is people ragging on PP for things like quoting a CTV news article that there was a terrorist attack.  Like that is going to change people's minds on how they vote in the next election.  It isn't.  The ones who are going to vote for Trudeau/Freeland will vote for them no matter what.  However, the rest will be voting based on their need to put food on the table for their kids and for their ability to pay their mortgage and keep their house.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about the economy.  That's all the average Joe cares about.  The stuff that is talked about in this thread means nothing to the average person in terms of how they will vote.

Isn't Canadian politics all about personality? Seriously PP has abandoned Ukraine? 

 

PP is taking advantage of the faux paus that Trudeau's government is serving up on a almost daily basis. It is cheap and effective politicing. Go back to 2015 and look at how Trudeau behaved. I doubt that will happen. Should PP put more meat on his platform? I am one for serious debate on public issues that affect Canada. The major issues facing this country are not addressed and have not been addressed for many years. Politicians are rewarded for the 'sound bite'. As much as I detest Trudeau his government has done some funding for research. I have no use for a politician like Singh who throws out uncosted BS on a regular basis.  

[Bob Long]

17 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Thats amazing. I believe you  but wow.

Ukrainian heritage and they would still vote for a party that could turn away from their old country 

 

If you haven't spent much time there it's hard to know how deep Trudeau hate runs, add to that a big dose of western alienation and yep.

 

PP might get some annoyed a bit over it but it won't move the needle.

[I.Am.Ironman]

6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I agree with you on this.  The problem is there is not a good option on the Liberal side either.  People can defend Trudeau and Freeland until they are blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that we are almost $1.3 trillion in debt and have a $50 billion interest payment due every year now just to pay the debt.  And that interest payment is growing each day and will be $60 billion in a couple of years.  That's money that we have to raise via taxes that won't be going to any social services or to medical care.  It's basically money thrown out the window.  It's like burning it in a fire pit.

 

All I see is people ragging on PP for things like quoting a CTV news article that there was a terrorist attack.  Like that is going to change people's minds on how they vote in the next election.  It isn't.  The ones who are going to vote for Trudeau/Freeland will vote for them no matter what.  However, the rest will be voting based on their need to put food on the table for their kids and for their ability to pay their mortgage and keep their house.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about the economy.  That's all the average Joe cares about.  The stuff that is talked about in this thread means nothing to the average person in terms of how they will vote.

 

What is PP's plan to pay down the debt? I doubt it's to raise taxes.

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

 

What is PP's plan to pay down the debt? I doubt it's to raise taxes.

 

nuking dental, pharma, and green tech should net him about 25-30 billion. The rest he'll promise as revenue from removing "red tape" from energy exports. 

[Gurn]

Trimming money, and finding money in the budget?

Sell all government art that is either not Canadian made, or donated/gifted by other countries or other entities.

Sell off  most CFB Esquimalt, and move the large part of it to the mid or north Vancouver Island region.-could probably do much the same in Halifax as well.

Sell of a bunch of crown land.

 

From an accounting perspective-make sure they aren't counting debt twice e.g. B.C. owes Canada $5 billion on this project, but Canada owes B.C. $6 billion on this other project. So instead of looking like $11 billion of government debt it is 'only' 1 bill.

 

Other thoughts welcome!

 

 

and time to go for a walk- back in a few hours.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Gurn

[Optimist Prime]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

All I see is people ragging on PP for things like quoting a CTV news article that there was a terrorist attack. 

I generally agree with your other points, I think we are headed towards a future election that is P.P's to lose. I think he is the worst option for Canada, but he is the popular chap at the moment. 

 

I whittled all that down to this statement though: I am of the understanding that even CTV has now said they made that article 15 minutes after P.P. said what he said, he wasn't quoting them, they were using his statement to generate a news article. So what then was P.P. talking about when he first made the terrorist attack statement? Seems to me it started with him, not that he was quoting anyone at CTV

[Optimist Prime]

16 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Trimming money, and finding money in the budget?

Sell all government art that is either not Canadian made, or donated/gifted by other countries or other entities.

Sell off  most CFB Esquimalt, and move the large part of it to the mid or north Vancouver Island region.-could probably do much the same in Halifax as well.

Sell of a bunch of crown land.

 

From an accounting perspective-make sure they aren't counting debt twice e.g. B.C. owes Canada $5 billion on this project, but Canada owes B.C. $6 billion on this other project. So instead of looking like $11 billion of government debt it is 'only' 1 bill.

 

 

I think the money raised by selling the lands at Esquimalt (and there may be first nations challenges there) would all be spent on building the infrastructure somewhere else. Either we need a west coast navy or we don't but moving it is the more expensive option. However, It may be worth considering if I can see the numbers. Maybe they should make a study of it. 

 

the accounting point, bang on. Lots of that debt is owed between 'in Canada' entities that would offset each other it is true. Also worth noting, the USA has extremely worse deficits and debt per capita and relative to their GDP than Canada, of the best ten economies in the world we are doing the best if we exclude the 2 countries with over a billion people in them to spread that debt or deficit per capita around to. 

The argument that Canada is fiscally falling apart fails if one only looks at it relative to the entire world. If we are the best economy in the world, what can P.P. possibly do to enhance it? Nothing. Any change is more likely to topple our position at the top of most of those economic charts than to push us further ahead of number 2.  I think that is just common sense, which right wingers like to hear about. 

[Optimist Prime]

43 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

nuking dental, pharma, and green tech should net him about 25-30 billion. The rest he'll promise as revenue from removing "red tape" from energy exports. 

I know it is gauche to post three in a row, but this is my last reply for the moment and wanted to squeeze it in without a wall of text quotting three things at the same time...

 

As a veteran I worry that the Harper era cutbacks to Veterans Affairs will be back in full force. The Harper Conservatives made it so that say, a lifetime monthly annuity of 1000 dollars was only availble to vets as a 127 thousand dollar cash out. so just over 10 years of value that would go up with inflation over time so more like 8 years of medical pension was boiled down to 127k and vets with mental issues were given checks and left to their own devices: ergo they went broke fast. One client of my wife's, she worked with VAC at the time: the clients husband was the vet, he got his lump sum and bought vacant land and a giant back hoe and was broke, with no place to live and no skills to build his dream home, which is what he tried to set out to do. Having sold his home and put that money and his pension money into the dirt pile and the tonka toy his family was left destitute and homeless. Just one example of the failings of the Harper Government on the Veterans file, but a big part of the reason I don't trust Con Men. When they talk about affordability for families, they mean cuts to services. nothing more and nothing less. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

I know it is gauche to post three in a row, but this is my last reply for the moment and wanted to squeeze it in without a wall of text quotting three things at the same time...

 

As a veteran I worry that the Harper era cutbacks to Veterans Affairs will be back in full force. The Harper Conservatives made it so that say, a lifetime monthly annuity of 1000 dollars was only availble to vets as a 127 thousand dollar cash out. so just over 10 years of value that would go up with inflation over time so more like 8 years of medical pension was boiled down to 127k and vets with mental issues were given checks and left to their own devices: ergo they went broke fast. One client of my wife's, she worked with VAC at the time: the clients husband was the vet, he got his lump sum and bought vacant land and a giant back hoe and was broke, with no place to live and no skills to build his dream home, which is what he tried to set out to do. Having sold his home and put that money and his pension money into the dirt pile and the tonka toy his family was left destitute and homeless. Just one example of the failings of the Harper Government on the Veterans file, but a big part of the reason I don't trust Con Men. When they talk about affordability for families, they mean cuts to services. nothing more and nothing less. 

 

 

this is an important point. Most of our debt is in bonds, and also public liabilities like pensions and benefits like yours. 

 

So its easy to say 'we owe it to ourselves' but thats not really encouraging to default on our own people. 

 

The debt service is getting out of hand, assuming we want to maintain our current services. 

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

this is an important point. Most of our debt is in bonds, and also public liabilities like pensions and benefits like yours. 

 

So its easy to say 'we owe it to ourselves' but thats not really encouraging to default on our own people. 

 

The debt service is getting out of hand, assuming we want to maintain our current services. 

 

Out of hand by whose standards? 

 

Best in the world is out of hand?

 

I know it could be better, nothing is perfect, but of the G7 we are tops, g20 we are tops, and of course I am exluding China and India who we beat on many different lines, but they have billions to spread their debt load to, and we have 38 million on a good day. 

 

So if we are generally the best across the globe or in some cases 2nd best in almost all economic standings, debt, deficit, as they relate to gdp and per capita.... again I have to ask whose standards say it is getting out of hand? The guy who wants the Prime Minister's job and his supporters are the only people declaring our best in the world status is getting out of hand. That is where I understand it to be at, politically. It is the football that PP wants to fight over because generally people associate good economic governance with right wing governments, history though shows that to be upside down thinking. Most of our largest debt accumulations were under Con govs. Covid notwithstanding. 

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

Out of hand by whose standards? 

 

Best in the world is out of hand?

 

I know it could be better, nothing is perfect, but of the G7 we are tops, g20 we are tops, and of course I am exluding China and India who we beat on many different lines, but they have billions to spread their debt load to, and we have 38 million on a good day. 

 

So if we are generally the best across the globe or in some cases 2nd best in almost all economic standings, debt, deficit, as they relate to gdp and per capita.... again I have to ask whose standards say it is getting out of hand? The guy who wants the Prime Minister's job and his supporters are the only people declaring our best in the world status is getting out of hand. That is where I understand it to be at, politically. It is the football that PP wants to fight over because generally people associate good economic governance with right wing governments, history though shows that to be upside down thinking. Most of our largest debt accumulations were under Con govs. Covid notwithstanding. 

Do you really believe this? 

[Optimist Prime]

10 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Do you really believe this? 

I could spend an hour reposting from work i showed a month ago but yes i do. I have the stats to back it up somewhere in these pages. 

Italy beat us one year two years ago on deficit per capita. so we were second there, and aside from china and india which I didn't do the work on because with 1.5billion or more people each they are in their own class and not a comparable to Canada.

[RupertKBD]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I know it is gauche to post three in a row, but this is my last reply for the moment and wanted to squeeze it in without a wall of text quotting three things at the same time...

 

As a veteran I worry that the Harper era cutbacks to Veterans Affairs will be back in full force. The Harper Conservatives made it so that say, a lifetime monthly annuity of 1000 dollars was only availble to vets as a 127 thousand dollar cash out. so just over 10 years of value that would go up with inflation over time so more like 8 years of medical pension was boiled down to 127k and vets with mental issues were given checks and left to their own devices: ergo they went broke fast. One client of my wife's, she worked with VAC at the time: the clients husband was the vet, he got his lump sum and bought vacant land and a giant back hoe and was broke, with no place to live and no skills to build his dream home, which is what he tried to set out to do. Having sold his home and put that money and his pension money into the dirt pile and the tonka toy his family was left destitute and homeless. Just one example of the failings of the Harper Government on the Veterans file, but a big part of the reason I don't trust Con Men. When they talk about affordability for families, they mean cuts to services. nothing more and nothing less. 

 

It's droit, as far as I'm concerned. I do it all the time.....

[4petesake]

10 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

All I see is people ragging on PP for things like quoting a CTV news article that there was a terrorist attack.  Like that is going to change people's minds on how they vote in the next election.  It isn't.  The ones who are going to vote for Trudeau/Freeland will vote for them no matter what.  However, the rest will be voting based on their need to put food on the table for their kids and for their ability to pay their mortgage and keep their house.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about the economy.  That's all the average Joe cares about.  The stuff that is talked about in this thread means nothing to the average person in terms of how they will vote.

 

We can agree that nothing we see here (so far) is going to change anyone’s vote but this isn’t about that. Won’t you at least agree that the man who will quite likely be our next PM should act with a little more care and not treat every incident as an opportunity for outrage and attack. He should be trying to show Canadians who won’t vote for him that he can be a thoughtful leader, especially on matters that concern threats to national security.

 

Don’t do the very thing you accuse the other side of doing - make excuses. We deserve better from whoever becomes the next PM.

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

 

What is PP's plan to pay down the debt? I doubt it's to raise taxes.

I have no idea. I haven’t heard of any plan from him. The election is still two years away. I’m sure the CPC will come up with a plan before then. 

[Elias Pettersson]

55 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

We can agree that nothing we see here (so far) is going to change anyone’s vote but this isn’t about that. Won’t you at least agree that the man who will quite likely be our next PM should act with a little more care and not treat every incident as an opportunity for outrage and attack. He should be trying to show Canadians who won’t vote for him that he can be a thoughtful leader, especially on matters that concern threats to national security.

 

Don’t do the very thing you accuse the other side of doing - make excuses. We deserve better from whoever becomes the next PM.

Sure, I can agree to that. All politicians are corrupt. I don’t trust any of them. So you won’t see me with my poms poms on here cheering anyone on. 
 

At the end of the day, we have a looming economic crisis that could turn into a full blown economic catastrophe. So unless a saviour comes down from the heavens to save us all we are pretty much fooked…

[Bob Long]

28 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Sure, I can agree to that. All politicians are corrupt. I don’t trust any of them. So you won’t see me with my poms poms on here cheering anyone on. 
 

At the end of the day, we have a looming economic crisis that could turn into a full blown economic catastrophe. So unless a saviour comes down from the heavens to save us all we are pretty much fooked…

 

I don't buy into that. We have some very good people who stepped forward to serve. Like any industry there are bad actors, but to label them all that way is unfair.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

I don't buy into that. We have some very good people who stepped forward to serve. Like any industry there are bad actors, but to label them all that way is unfair.

My uncle used to be a politician. He told me many stories. At the end of the day, these people are only concerned about their pensions. The system itself is corrupt which is why you don’t get alot of good qualified people running for office. 
 

Just look at the three amigos running the show right now. Trudeau, PP and Singh. I’m pretty sure I could find 3 more qualified people to run the country at my local Safeway. 
 

Down in the US it is even worse. You had Trump and now you have Biden, who is supposedly better but the guy doesn’t even know he’s alive. It’s pretty sad really. 
 

Sure, back in the day we had better people. People who actually cared. Chrétien, Paul Martin, Jack Layton. These types of people aren’t around anymore. Nobody with a functioning brain seems to want to run for politics any longer. It’s a slimy business to be in. People will come and attack you and your character all day long. 
 

I know some local people who ran for politics. They barely passed high school. But one of them got in. I think he was in the NDP party. This was like 15 years ago. I laughed when I saw his name on the signs. And he actually won. From what I remember he couldn’t even spell his own name. So sad. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Sure, I can agree to that. All politicians are corrupt. I don’t trust any of them. So you won’t see me with my poms poms on here cheering anyone on. 
 

At the end of the day, we have a looming economic crisis that could turn into a full blown economic catastrophe. So unless a saviour comes down from the heavens to save us all we are pretty much fooked…

And yet you defended his actions post after post by regurgitating the same excuse he gave. We all have to be better. Be best if you will. 

[Boudrias]

16 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

My uncle used to be a politician. He told me many stories. At the end of the day, these people are only concerned about their pensions. The system itself is corrupt which is why you don’t get alot of good qualified people running for office. 
 

Just look at the three amigos running the show right now. Trudeau, PP and Singh. I’m pretty sure I could find 3 more qualified people to run the country at my local Safeway. 
 

Down in the US it is even worse. You had Trump and now you have Biden, who is supposedly better but the guy doesn’t even know he’s alive. It’s pretty sad really. 
 

Sure, back in the day we had better people. People who actually cared. Chrétien, Paul Martin, Jack Layton. These types of people aren’t around anymore. Nobody with a functioning brain seems to want to run for politics any longer. It’s a slimy business to be in. People will come and attack you and your character all day long. 
 

I know some local people who ran for politics. They barely passed high school. But one of them got in. I think he was in the NDP party. This was like 15 years ago. I laughed when I saw his name on the signs. And he actually won. From what I remember he couldn’t even spell his own name. So sad. 

IMO there are some good politicians but I understand your scepticism. A good question might be why voters don't hold their politicians to account more. This page is dominated by progressives who give Trudeau a standard bye and focus in on PP who has not even been PM yet. I have no problem asking PP to flesh out his agenda but the obvious effort is to box him out using whatever means available. More to do with philosophical leaning than anything else. 

 

Voters have to start asking hard questions of all politicians or they will take the easy out. Politics today is all top down because it is easier. National party conventions are a sop to the grassroots. Actual decision making is done behind closed doors. I have seen a greater willingness by the CPC to turf leaders than the Liberals or NDP. No matter what party all the pronouncements and posturing are BS if they are not based on economic realism.  

[Johngould21]

17 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

My uncle used to be a politician. He told me many stories. At the end of the day, these people are only concerned about their pensions. The system itself is corrupt which is why you don’t get alot of good qualified people running for office. 
 

Just look at the three amigos running the show right now. Trudeau, PP and Singh. I’m pretty sure I could find 3 more qualified people to run the country at my local Safeway. 
 

Down in the US it is even worse. You had Trump and now you have Biden, who is supposedly better but the guy doesn’t even know he’s alive. It’s pretty sad really. 
 

Sure, back in the day we had better people. People who actually cared. Chrétien, Paul Martin, Jack Layton. These types of people aren’t around anymore. Nobody with a functioning brain seems to want to run for politics any longer. It’s a slimy business to be in. People will come and attack you and your character all day long. 
 

I know some local people who ran for politics. They barely passed high school. But one of them got in. I think he was in the NDP party. This was like 15 years ago. I laughed when I saw his name on the signs. And he actually won. From what I remember he couldn’t even spell his own name. So sad. 

When those politicians can't go out for dinner, or take their families on a vacation without being harassed by idiots, who in their right mind would want to be a politcian?

[aGENT]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:57 PM, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Exactly.  The current government runs up the deficit to $1.2 trillion dollars with a $50 billion annual interest payment, and the first thing people think of in terms of fixing the problem is adding more taxes to the ultra rich.  That’s the classic socialist model of wealth redistribution.  

 

It’s always the rich people that have to fix the problem, it’s never a situation where the government is held accountable for their poor decisions…

 

I don't think we need to post any links to agree that there's a bad and worsening income disparity issue (here and abroad). That needs to be addressed one way or another. Whether that's higher wages or more taxation (or a mix of both) on the people getting the increasing slices of pie at the top, until that is addressed, the economy will worsen. And neither is free of economic repercussions either. Both effect the cost of doing business in Canada and hence effect investment. There's no free lunch to fix that issue.

 

On 11/23/2023 at 7:49 AM, Bob Long said:

 

its difficult to talk about this without being accused of sticking up for someone avoiding taxation. 

 

Very rich folks have mobility, they can and will go wherever they want to. If Canada makes it uncomfortable, they'll go elsewhere. Its not really a solution to anything imo. 

 

Sure go ahead and try I guess. I suspect nothing comes of it.

 

We have so many things we can do for more effective services than this idea, but imo its such an attractive idea it lets our governments off the hook for shitty management. 

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive. We very much need government spending reform. We also need to address worsening income disparity. Whether that's, taxes or wages or...? Wealth needs redistributing to keep the economy healthy. Pyramids don't function very well upside down.

[aGENT]

39 minutes ago, Johngould21 said:

When those politicians can't go out for dinner, or take their families on a vacation without being harassed by idiots, who in their right mind would want to be a politcian?

Yup, I'd consider running for public office but I have ZERO desire to deal with the public vitriol.

 

Even locally, in my small little town, the amount of ass-hattery I see our Mayor/counselors deal with from the loud, ignorant minority is stomach turning.

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

I don't think we need to post any links to agree that there's a bad and worsening income disparity issue (here and abroad). That needs to be addressed one way or another. Whether that's higher wages or more taxation (or a mix of both) on the people getting the increasing slices of pie at the top, until that is addressed, the economy will worsen. And neither is free of economic repercussions either. Both effect the cost of doing business in Canada and hence effect investment. There's no free lunch to fix that issue.

 

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive. We very much need government spending reform. We also need to address worsening income disparity. Whether that's, taxes or wages or...? Wealth needs redistributing to keep the economy healthy. Pyramids don't function very well upside down.

 

if you have a look at the links bishop and myself posted above, there are some answers in there, and also the scale of inequality for some perspective.

 

From my read of those links, the best thing we can do is get more people into higher skilled jobs with higher pay. And companies are waiting for people too, there's a huge shortage of skilled workers. 

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

if you have a look at the links bishop and myself posted above, there are some answers in there, and also the scale of inequality for some perspective.

 

From my read of those links, the best thing we can do is get more people into higher skilled jobs with higher pay. And companies are waiting for people too, there's a huge shortage of skilled workers. 

 

Still simply need to pay people more.  Even unskilled jobs. If you look at executive vs employee pay trends over the last 40 years, it's laughable. Low and middle class jobs have not remotely kept pace with inflation. Skilled or otherwise.

 

And as nice as that sounds a lot of people are too busy struggling to pay for food and housing to have time to go to school and better themselves. Only real solution there is paid, on the job training. Those companies should stop waiting, get off their assess and recruit, pay and train people then.