Canadian Politics Thread

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

4 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

Someone like Singh doesn't have to be an attack dog to broaden his appeal.  But he does need to walk the walk.  His upper middle class image has already affected the NDP's popularity - a leader of the working class party should not be wearing a Rolex and drive a Z4M. 

 

Notley for Federal NDP leader?  

[Bob Long]

8 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Notley for Federal NDP leader?  

 

thats actually a very interesting idea. I think she would appeal to a lot of people outside of Cowberta.

 

But I'd rather see Nenshi. I don't typically support the NDP, but I respect him a lot and would give it real consideration. 

 

[Warhippy]

9 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Notley for Federal NDP leader?  

She'd have a lot more votes than Singh

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

thats actually a very interesting idea. I think she would appeal to a lot of people outside of Cowberta.

 

But I'd rather see Nenshi. I don't typically support the NDP, but I respect him a lot and would give it real consideration. 

 

 

Was just thinking in terms of NDP ranks, who would most likely appear to the right of the current Rt.Hon., and with her "retiring" from the Alberta NDP leadership and a federal election just over a year away, figured she might have some interest.  

[Bob Long]

Just now, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Was just thinking in terms of NDP ranks, who would most likely appear to the right of the current Rt.Hon., and with her "retiring" from the Alberta NDP leadership and a federal election just over a year away, figured she might have some interest.  

 

I think you're on to something there. If Notley, Nenshi and maybe someone like Gregor Robertson ran it could really raise the NDPs profile. 

 

[Shift-4]

44 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Notley for Federal NDP leader?  

She already said no.

And I don't believe she speaks French.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

4 minutes ago, Shift-4 said:

She already said no.

And I don't believe she speaks French.

 

Ah, c'est dommage.  

[Shift-4]

1 minute ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

Ah, c'est dommage.  

Si

[Maninthebox]

Notley and Nenshi?

 

Jesus wept!

[Miss Korea]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

I'd argue that 'progressives' have dropped the ball, big time in both the US and Canada when it comes to basic issues like housing and wages too. Far too much concern these days about signalling who's aligned with who, etc. and in the meantime peoples lives aren't better off.

 

Look at BC, we've had the NDP since 2017 and rent never went down, very little housing built under them either.

 

yea thats when you know things are getting silly, when people vote against their own interests for parties that will just use them. 

 

 

I can assure that the true progressive wing of the Democratic Party (AOC, Bernie, Porter, Warren) have been hard at work grilling various groups in legislature.  They are absolutely raising concerns about housing and wages, and anyone who suggests otherwise is not following their body of work.

 

But enough about the United States.  The problem with the federal NDP is that they banked their confidence-and-supply deal on dental care/pharmacare.  They did not pressure the Liberals on housing and inflationary spending.  This is because the NDP has shifted a bit closer to the centre in an effort to broaden its appeal to the middle class... at the worst time when the middle class is increasingly shrinking.  After all, settled homeowners don't like the idea of increased housing and lower prices.  Anyone in Vancouver should know how rampant the nimbyism is.  Just look at the mayor.

 

Now, Eby's BC NDP has made significant strides; you are definitely not giving them enough credit for the work they've put in.  They've taxed empty housing.  They've put strict regulations on short-term housing (Airbnb).  Tax credit relief for renters.  Dense zoning around transit hubs and and increased medium-density zoning all around.  All of these things have certainly helped in a dire situation that has truly affected the entire world.  And along with Toronto, Vancouver is obviously one of Canada's most livable cities.  There is only so much one can do with demand, and I'm very surprised to see you this dismissive of Eby's record so far.  You cannot name a province that has come close to him in terms of addressing housing.

 

3 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Notley for Federal NDP leader?  

 

Her exit interview suggests she has a bit too much baggage right now.  Not unlike Smith, better to wait for a better time before making a big return.

 

4 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Dignified?

 

LOL

 

Fuck dignity.  You LITERALLY have right wing politicians telling their base that they didn't lose elections that they lost.  You have them parroting bullshit lies to the populace pissing them off and pushing that anger towards the wrong places.  You have them leading the idiocy ever further down the rabbit hole of anger and nationalism and that's a lid that isn't easily put back on the pot sir.

 

If dignity is the thing you're worried about, well I would rather die in the mud fighting tooth and nail blowing their crap wide open and reminding people that it's all a lie as opposed to standing there looking prim and proper, a loser in a fight for basic human rights thinking "gee; at least I didn't say the bad words" 

 

You're also absolutely misunderstand everything I said.  I never mentioned pushing fake stories or conspiracy theories.  I meant excusing their actions, or laws or movements using the EXACT same words and arguments that those on the right have done to excuse their own.

 

Imagine Trudeau in front of a microphone telling people that the economy is this way because 'insert former governments actions" in the same way they do his.  Imagine Trudeau reminding people that the covid money spent, was done with the signatures of the Conservative leaders.  That Pierre can't solve housing because he blew $400 million and built nothing.  That he may be failing but he's done it in the face of insane global challenges and rising rates while the guy who wants to take over was the voice of a party that did the same and never once balanced a budget and managed to do it without a single issue anywhere near the magnitude that has occurred int he last 4 years.

 

That is what I am saying.  Fuck dignity.  Holding your head high only allows them a better chance of knocking you out with one punch.  Duck your head and get ready to fight as dirty as hell because that's where we're at in this world.  People will only respond to anger right now because that's all they're being fed.  So serve them what they're looking for but serve it from a different plate and shine a light of ugly truth on the situation.

 

Answer every single thing the EXACT same way they would and even use their own speeches word for word if needed to justify it.  I am a small c type conservative and I am sick to death of the current state of affairs because I know what's coming.  There's one chance to avoid it but nobody wants to step in the mud to do it,

 

It is difficult for an incumbent party of over 8 years to continually blame the previous government.  Whether there is truth behind it or not (which there is), the optics of such an attack campaign will ring empty to the ears of average Canadians.  It's not like I like those types of attack ads.  Instead, the Liberals are likely to adopt a fearmongering campaign, showcasing how dangerous PM Poilievre will be.  After 8 years, Trudeau should be trumpeting the successes of his party.  He should be trumpeting the initiatives towards stopping the housing crisis and inflation.  But unfortunately it's been a party of indecision, choosing to stay mum and complacent while Poilievre's attack dog tactics filled the airwaves.  The Liberals had enough time to formulate some concrete initiatives to combat these problems, but instead they've just promised vague spending budgets with few specifics.

 

Because let's face it.  There are many things that are completely out of the Liberals' control.  This is the reality of Canadian federalism, where Parliament's jurisdiction is limited to 1867 institutions that have since become completely outdated (ie. defence, criminal law) while the provinces get all the juicy stuff (ie. education, health care, resources).  And yet there are many things the Liberals can control and have simply let get out of hand.  Instead of owning up to their shortcomings and promising to do better... the party has denied any issues plaguing Canada while promised to do better.  So instead of a message of humility and commitment, we get a message that reeks of arrogance and elitism.  And while that's all Poilievre is too (arrogant and elitist), he has the vantage point of not being the ruling government.

[Bob Long]

43 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

I can assure that the true progressive wing of the Democratic Party (AOC, Bernie, Porter, Warren) have been hard at work grilling various groups in legislature.  They are absolutely raising concerns about housing and wages, and anyone who suggests otherwise is not following their body of work.

 

But enough about the United States.  The problem with the federal NDP is that they banked their confidence-and-supply deal on dental care/pharmacare.  They did not pressure the Liberals on housing and inflationary spending.  This is because the NDP has shifted a bit closer to the centre in an effort to broaden its appeal to the middle class... at the worst time when the middle class is increasingly shrinking.  After all, settled homeowners don't like the idea of increased housing and lower prices.  Anyone in Vancouver should know how rampant the nimbyism is.  Just look at the mayor.

 

Now, Eby's BC NDP has made significant strides; you are definitely not giving them enough credit for the work they've put in.  They've taxed empty housing.  They've put strict regulations on short-term housing (Airbnb).  Tax credit relief for renters.  Dense zoning around transit hubs and and increased medium-density zoning all around.  All of these things have certainly helped in a dire situation that has truly affected the entire world.  And along with Toronto, Vancouver is obviously one of Canada's most livable cities.  There is only so much one can do with demand, and I'm very surprised to see you this dismissive of Eby's record so far.  You cannot name a province that has come close to him in terms of addressing housing.

 

 

Her exit interview suggests she has a bit too much baggage right now.  Not unlike Smith, better to wait for a better time before making a big return.

 

 

It is difficult for an incumbent party of over 8 years to continually blame the previous government.  Whether there is truth behind it or not (which there is), the optics of such an attack campaign will ring empty to the ears of average Canadians.  It's not like I like those types of attack ads.  Instead, the Liberals are likely to adopt a fearmongering campaign, showcasing how dangerous PM Poilievre will be.  After 8 years, Trudeau should be trumpeting the successes of his party.  He should be trumpeting the initiatives towards stopping the housing crisis and inflation.  But unfortunately it's been a party of indecision, choosing to stay mum and complacent while Poilievre's attack dog tactics filled the airwaves.  The Liberals had enough time to formulate some concrete initiatives to combat these problems, but instead they've just promised vague spending budgets with few specifics.

 

Because let's face it.  There are many things that are completely out of the Liberals' control.  This is the reality of Canadian federalism, where Parliament's jurisdiction is limited to 1867 institutions that have since become completely outdated (ie. defence, criminal law) while the provinces get all the juicy stuff (ie. education, health care, resources).  And yet there are many things the Liberals can control and have simply let get out of hand.  Instead of owning up to their shortcomings and promising to do better... the party has denied any issues plaguing Canada while promised to do better.  So instead of a message of humility and commitment, we get a message that reeks of arrogance and elitism.  And while that's all Poilievre is too (arrogant and elitist), he has the vantage point of not being the ruling government.

 

Not sure why you credit Eby for Vancouvers density plan - that's Ken Sim's work. He's not a NIMBY at all.

[Miss Korea]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

Not sure why you credit Eby for Vancouvers density plan - that's Ken Sim's work. He's not a NIMBY at all.

 

Come again!??  Ken Sim and the ABC are not NIMBYs??

 

I cannot believe there is someone here giving credit to Sim when he's been completely outclassed by Kahlon and his comparatively limited influence.  Make no mistake - SimCity has literally done nothing to help the city's housing situation.  The bulk of that credit is owed to the BC NDP's initiatives, despite about 95% of the accountability belonging to the City of Vancouver.  I've given you a list of what the BC NDP has done.  Give me a list of things that ABC has done. 

 

P.S.: Those empty home taxes?  Guess which mayor took all the windfalls and handed them.... straight back to his developer friends...?

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Come again!??  Ken Sim and the ABC are not NIMBYs??

 

I cannot believe there is someone here giving credit to Sim when he's been completely outclassed by Kahlon and his comparatively limited influence.  Make no mistake - SimCity has literally done nothing to help the city's housing situation.  The bulk of that credit is owed to the BC NDP's initiatives, despite about 95% of the accountability belonging to the City of Vancouver.  I've given you a list of what the BC NDP has done.  Give me a list of things that ABC has done. 

 

P.S.: Those empty home taxes?  Guess which mayor took all the windfalls and handed them.... straight back to his developer friends...?

 

The NDP didn't change the city bylaws.

 

Also, tell me if rent has gone down or up since 2017.

[Miss Korea]

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

The NDP didn't change the city bylaws.

 

Also, tell me if rent has gone down or up since 2017.

 

Not even my lord and saviour Jesus Christ could have stopped rent from going up.  Are you able to name a single city or province (or country in the entire developed world) where rent has gone down since 2017?  Can you name even one?

 

What I can tell you is that Vancouver rent has declined for the 4th month in a row.  Still the most expensive city in Canada - but numbers are numbers.

 

https://www.zumper.com/blog/rental-price-data-canada/

 

By the way, nice sidestep.  You completely avoided my prompt.  I have shown you the measures the BC NDP have already implemented to combat the housing crisis.  You still haven't named anything ABC has done.

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Not even my lord and saviour Jesus Christ could have stopped rent from going up.  Are you able to name a single city or province (or country in the entire developed world) where rent has gone down since 2017?  Can you name even one?

 

What I can tell you is that Vancouver rent has declined for the 4th month in a row.  Still the most expensive city in Canada - but numbers are numbers.

 

https://www.zumper.com/blog/rental-price-data-canada/

 

By the way, nice sidestep.  You completely avoided my prompt.  I have shown you the measures the BC NDP have already implemented to combat the housing crisis.  You still haven't named anything ABC has done.

 

Sim has been mayor since October 2022... How long do you expect the list to be?

 

The most important move was in the massive rezoning of the city for multiple homes. They are improving permitting. They are working with developer on new projects. Sims plan to increase density quickly around SkyTrain stations is a great move.

 

Other things I like are his support of the police, and nuking that idiotic park board.

 

I'm thrilled he booted Kennedy Stewart, best thing to happen to Vancouver in years.

 

I like Sim a lot, we might actually get some things accomplished.

[Miss Korea]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

Sim has been mayor since October 2022... How long do you expect the list to be?

 

The most important move was in the massive rezoning of the city for multiple homes. They are improving permitting. They are working with developer on new projects. Sims plan to increase density quickly around SkyTrain stations is a great move.

 

Other things I like are his support of the police, and nuking that idiotic park board.

 

I'm thrilled he booted Kennedy Stewart, best thing to happen to Vancouver in years.

 

I like Sim a lot, we might actually get some things accomplished.

 

Fair enough.  He has certainly taken some steps to implement core parts of the Vancouver Plan.  Sim has always been close to developers since before he entered politics.  Just keep in mind that you specifically queried me on lower housing prices, and Sim has no vested interest in affordability.  High-density housing isn't cheap - it's likely to cost double whatever it's replacing.  Transit-oriented housing development is not an original idea of Ken Sim, and not something that was already underway in the CoV.  

 

Mentioning the Parks Board is a bizarre thing, as it was a shortsighted reactionary move to internal party politics.  Despite having campaigned against abolishing it, ABC did a 180° and went ahead, booting party commissioners who opposed him.  As a result, Sim has set the city on a massive collision course with both the provincial government as well as the various First Nations of Vancouver.  The city is on unceded Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh territories.  Just like you right now, the mayor has opened up a massive can of worms that had no business being opened.  Eby has already warned Sim about this and it's going to be a long, drawn-out mess and an unnecessary distraction in municipal politics.

 

At the end of the day, you are simply not giving David Eby and the BC NDP enough credit for their efforts to alleviate the housing crisis.  They are not perfect, but far greater than what any other provincial government is doing.

[Duodenum]

25 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Fair enough.  He has certainly taken some steps to implement core parts of the Vancouver Plan.  Sim has always been close to developers since before he entered politics.  Just keep in mind that you specifically queried me on lower housing prices, and Sim has no vested interest in affordability.  High-density housing isn't cheap - it's likely to cost double whatever it's replacing.  Transit-oriented housing development is not an original idea of Ken Sim, and not something that was already underway in the CoV.  

 

Mentioning the Parks Board is a bizarre thing, as it was a shortsighted reactionary move to internal party politics.  Despite having campaigned against abolishing it, ABC did a 180° and went ahead, booting party commissioners who opposed him.  As a result, Sim has set the city on a massive collision course with both the provincial government as well as the various First Nations of Vancouver.  The city is on unceded Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh territories.  Just like you right now, the mayor has opened up a massive can of worms that had no business being opened.  Eby has already warned Sim about this and it's going to be a long, drawn-out mess and an unnecessary distraction in municipal politics.

 

At the end of the day, you are simply not giving David Eby and the BC NDP enough credit for their efforts to alleviate the housing crisis.  They are not perfect, but far greater than what any other provincial government is doing.

Eby and Sim are both trying, unfortunately Trudeau is a thing.

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Not even my lord and saviour Jesus Christ could have stopped rent from going up.  Are you able to name a single city or province (or country in the entire developed world) where rent has gone down since 2017?  Can you name even one?

 

What I can tell you is that Vancouver rent has declined for the 4th month in a row.  Still the most expensive city in Canada - but numbers are numbers.

 

https://www.zumper.com/blog/rental-price-data-canada/

 

By the way, nice sidestep.  You completely avoided my prompt.  I have shown you the measures the BC NDP have already implemented to combat the housing crisis.  You still haven't named anything ABC has done.

 

Rents are dropping because supply is increasing.  I tried to explain this to a few posters who told me rents are linked to inflation and interest rates.  If the supply of rental homes goes up then rents come down, regardless of inflation.

 

Right now, we are seeing demand drop, which is increasing supply.  Demand for rental housing is down 15.7% over the past month, while supply is only down 2.8%.  So the net effect is a 13% increase in supply.  This is what is causing rents to drop...

 

Rentsync National Rental Demand Report: January 2024

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

The NDP didn't change the city bylaws.

 

Also, tell me if rent has gone down or up since 2017.

 

The city bylaws haven't technically changed yet.  They are slated to change in June of 2024 and the OCP's are slated to change by the end of 2025.

 

Bill 44, Bill 46 and Bill 47 are all provincial initiatives by the NDP to increase density.  Bill 44 is focused on turning every lot in the lower mainland to a multi-family dwelling.  Bill 47 is focused on rezoning all land around TOA's (transited oriented areas), from low density condos to 20 storey hirise buildings.  Bill 46 is focused on the costs that will come with all of this densification and the municipalities trying to figure out who will pay for everything.

 

IMO, Ken Sim so far has done a good job in his short time as Mayor of Vancouver.  But the brunt of all of the changes coming through right now for the re-densification of the lower mainland is coming from the provincial government.  

 

It's the same with short term rentals which is Bill 35, which is a provincial government legislation...

 

https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2023HOUS0171-001945

 

“Over the fall session, our government passed comprehensive laws to deliver more homes for people faster in every part of B.C.,” said Premier David Eby. “We are in a housing crisis and we will continue to take strong action to deliver thousands more middle-class homes families can afford.”

In the fall legislative session, the government introduced a suite of housing legislation to deliver more homes for people faster in every part of B.C.

 

Today, details and technical resources to support the implementation of Bill 35 – Short-Term Rental Accommodations Act, Bill 44 – Housing Statutes (Residential Development) Amendment Act and Bill 47 – Housing Statutes (Transit-Oriented Areas) Amendment Act have been provided to local governments.

 

“The action we are taking is strong, comprehensive and designed to meet one of the greatest challenges people face, here in B.C., and in jurisdictions across Canada and around the world,” said Ravi Kahlon, Minister of Housing. “We leveraged ideas from some of the most successful action taken on housing from around the world and we made B.C. a leader. These regulations will help local governments work with homebuilders to deliver viable housing projects, that help more people find homes in existing neighbourhoods and next to transit hubs.”

Edited January 18 by Elias Pettersson

[Elias Pettersson]

I just want to add that Bills 35, 44 and 47 are FORCING municipalities to change their bylaws.  They have no choice but to do it.  Also, the provincial government has given no indication whether they will allow builders to stratify the multi-family homes.  Right now, if you are building 4 units on a lot, 3 of those dwellings need to be market rentals.  If you are building 6 units, then one must be a subsidized housing unit.

 

The provincial government is going to leave it up to each individual municipality in terms of how they want to deal with the potential stratification of the multi-family dwellings so that they can be sold off.  This will identify which cities are more interested in increasing the rental supply versus the ones who want to increase the supply of units for sale.  I have a 33-page PDF that explains all of this that I was reading yesterday...

[Bob Long]

8 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Fair enough.  He has certainly taken some steps to implement core parts of the Vancouver Plan.  Sim has always been close to developers since before he entered politics.  Just keep in mind that you specifically queried me on lower housing prices, and Sim has no vested interest in affordability.  High-density housing isn't cheap - it's likely to cost double whatever it's replacing.  Transit-oriented housing development is not an original idea of Ken Sim, and not something that was already underway in the CoV.  

 

Mentioning the Parks Board is a bizarre thing, as it was a shortsighted reactionary move to internal party politics.  Despite having campaigned against abolishing it, ABC did a 180° and went ahead, booting party commissioners who opposed him.  As a result, Sim has set the city on a massive collision course with both the provincial government as well as the various First Nations of Vancouver.  The city is on unceded Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh territories.  Just like you right now, the mayor has opened up a massive can of worms that had no business being opened.  Eby has already warned Sim about this and it's going to be a long, drawn-out mess and an unnecessary distraction in municipal politics.

 

At the end of the day, you are simply not giving David Eby and the BC NDP enough credit for their efforts to alleviate the housing crisis.  They are not perfect, but far greater than what any other provincial government is doing.

 

Collision course with first Nations? Sim isn't the one against new projects they want to develop.

 

What I'm thrilled with is  the current city government isnt about the useless us vs them thing that the NDP brings to development.

 

Can you tell me a way that development can occur without developers being involved?

 

Edited January 18 by Bob Long

[aGENT]

20 hours ago, Ricky Ravioli said:

Lol what? The claim was troll farms were used to spread political misinformation. While that's not entirely wrong, it's quite clearly obvious MOST troll farms operate to make money and have nothing to do with political leanings. Was pointing that out. 

 

Bob who spreads bullshit on Facebook isn't running a troll farm

 

Are you suggesting that there's no money in politics?

[RupertKBD]

There's no easy answer to the housing issue IMO, but it's nice to see the city of Hamilton is doing something for lower income folks:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/hamilton-to-become-1st-ontario-city-with-bylaw-to-stop-bad-faith-renovictions/ar-AA1nbkCw?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=e355f099d70549a4b69d83809114a098&ei=36

 

Quote

 

Hamilton will soon be the first municipality in Ontario to enforce a renovictions bylaw designed to deter landlords from bad faith evictions and better protect tenants living in affordable units.

After more than a year of work and multiple drafts, city staff presented their latest version of the bylaw to councillors on Wednesday, who voted unanimously in support. 

Coun. Nrinder Nann (Ward 3), who has pushed for the bylaw for years, addressed tenants in the council chamber. 

"We see you and we've heard you, and cities can do something," said Nann.

"And honestly, I can't think of a better love letter to our neighbours who rent to affirm the fact you matter and you're valued as Hamiltonians."

Hamilton has seen a 983 per cent increase in the number of renoviction notices, N13s, issued to tenants between 2017 and 2022, Monica Ciriello, director of licensing and bylaw enforcement, told councillors last year. 

Landlords are allowed to issue eviction notices to tenants if they think units need to be vacant for renovation and repairs to be done safely. In Ontario, Tenants have the right to move back in afterwards, at the same rate.

 

 

Hopefully, this idea catches on with other cities....

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

There's no easy answer to the housing issue IMO, but it's nice to see the city of Hamilton is doing something for lower income folks:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/hamilton-to-become-1st-ontario-city-with-bylaw-to-stop-bad-faith-renovictions/ar-AA1nbkCw?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=e355f099d70549a4b69d83809114a098&ei=36

 

 

Hopefully, this idea catches on with other cities....

 

have to see how this plays out. It looks like the costs will be handled through increasing the city budget, so thats going to top out with taxpayers at some point. It also might mean that low income housing just stays in pretty bad state of disrepair if landlords have too many barriers to make upgrades. OTOH some landlords are kicking people out.

 

Not sure I see this making a significant change to the amount of homes actually available.

 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

14 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

The bulk of that credit is owed to the BC NDP's initiatives, despite about 95% of the accountability belonging to the City of Vancouver. 

 

There's a bit more about this (including expected Provincial plans for 2024) at Jimmy's favourite "fucking hippie" news site, The Tyee.

 

https://thetyee.ca/News/2024/01/18/Brace-Yourself-Housing-Reforms/