Canadian Politics Thread

[Master Mind]

21 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I just don't think it is the school districts job to OUT kids to their parents. Hard stop end of my opinion. I have a few friends in the alphabet group, and I am highly sympathetic to  the historical harms the LGBTQ2S+ folks have suffered both at large in society AND within their own homes that were supposed to nurture them. I have shared about a close friend named Frankie whose dad beat her nearly unconscious when she came out as Frankie and not the Francine he baptised. I think the rights of the children far outweigh the rights of the parent and I suspect the supreme court will eventually strike down the "Schools will out kids to their parents" part of these various provincial legislations. More harm will come to children than the anecdotal 'good' that will come from schools calling parents about their kids pronouns. Again i refer this group to the inadvertent side effects of poorly thought out legislation: will nicknames and short forms now also need to be phone checked with parents? It is a ridiculous style of law, in several conservative run provinces that in fact infringes on the rights of the young people we are all aiming to 'protect' in various ways. The Parents Rights group are positing that their rights supersede their kids rights, as though those kids are chattel, much like in a Muslim run theocracy where women and children are possessions. I dislike that intensely. I believe those parts will be struck down as soon as there is a test case willing to go to the supreme court. 

 

edit: and on the surgical side of the same legislation: I have yet to hear about a minor getting surgery to change their parts in Canada, I think it is a moot point, or close enough to one if a single example or two can be found: that would be 1 in 20 million and not worth the time it takes to talk about, I think it is dog whistling from the 'good stock canadian' side of politics and I find that icky at best from D (Bag) Smith the Premier of Alberta. She is basically taking a stance that a few more young suicides is just the cost of being re-elected. 

 

The example of your friend is very unfortunate, and I'm sorry to hear that. As I mentioned, there are scenarios where it is better to not tell the parents, but I also believe there are scenarios where it is better. I don't know of a solution that helps everyone in the best way possible. It is great that we are looking out for others, but I think it is more helpful to be aware of all scenarios.

 

I imagine the nicknames/short forms won't be enforced, even if they fall under that legislation.

 

That isn't the interpretation I get from people supporting the parents rights. Sure, that may be the case for some, but I think it's mostly people doing what they think is best for their kids.

[King Heffy]

11 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

 

The example of your friend is very unfortunate, and I'm sorry to hear that. As I mentioned, there are scenarios where it is better to not tell the parents, but I also believe there are scenarios where it is better. I don't know of a solution that helps everyone in the best way possible. It is great that we are looking out for others, but I think it is more helpful to be aware of all scenarios.

 

The child is better equipped to know which situation they fall into than the bigots who wrote this barbaric legislation.  They don't care about the welfare of children; if they did, they'd be a lot more concerned about keeping children away from priests.

Edited February 5 by King Heffy

[Wiggums]

13 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

Yeah I'll openly state I used the report feature last night. If someone has a different opinion that's perfectly fine, but hate speech goes beyond just "merely" having an opinion.

 

And I hope something gets done about it because these threads are just going to continue going downhill if not. I love that we have people with differing opinions being able to debate, but there still should be a line that shouldn't be crossed.

 

In fact, I'm going to provide a good example of someone I've noticed debating in a way that I view as being respectable even if I don't always see eye-to-eye with: @UnkNuk

 

Ahh yes, report and get them cancelled.   The most common and most cowardice play in the liberal playbook

 

The Topic of trans surgery in children cannot be discussed without it being considered hate speech? Give me a break 

[Elias Pettersson]

8 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Canada has a horrible tendency of voting people out rather than in, but if you really think Poilievre's attack campaign is akin to anything we've seen in the past, you are completely disregarding our country's political history.  No Conservative leader in Canadian history has ever courted with the far right the way PP has.  He has actively engaged with conspiracy theorists, hate groups, white supremacists, you name it.  Is he a far-right person himself?  I don't think so.  But he is the first major party leader in Canada willing to use that energy to promote his campaign, which when you really look into it, has very little substance apart from attacking the Liberals on everything.  

 

If the Liberals want to get voters like me back to their party then they need to change up the leadership like I've mentioned before.  People like me voted for Jean Chretien and Paul Martin.  We even voted for Trudeau the first time.  However, we won't be voting for him again.  The Liberal party needs to shift over to the centre again like it used to be under Chretien and Martin.  I don't vote NDP federally, never have, so I am not about to vote for a Liberal Party that is in bed with the NDP and that the only reason they are still in power is because of their alliance and sleeping together with said NDP party.  There is a reason the Liberals and the NDP are two different parties, they used to be fundamentally different, now you can't tell them apart.

 

I've never said I was some PP fan and my voting history shows that I am a centrist, not some right wing Conservative nut job.  If the Liberals were actually doing the right thing then they should be winning in the polls.  Instead, alot of their base has shifted elsewhere.  1 in 3 gen z'ers are polling to vote Conservative right now.  Liberals can call them ignorant, uninformed, stupid, whatever they want, but at the end of the day that is 14% of the voter base that is pissed off that they can't even afford their rent right now and that home ownership may never happen for them.  They don't believe in politicians anymore, they think they are all liars.  Which they are.

 

The Liberals need to do the right thing and force Trudeau to resign and get new leadership.  If they were to do that I think all those former Liberals who voted for Trudeau the first time would probably go back to the Liberals, including the gen z'ers.  If the Liberals can't even find someone better than Trudeau to run in the next election, then they don't deserve to be in power.  Best case scenario is for the Conservatives to form a minority government and then the Liberals are forced to get new leadership after Trudeau is voted out.  Once that happens, things will start to change for the better.  

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

 

Ahh yes, report and get them cancelled.   The most common and most cowardice play in the liberal playbook

 

The Topic of trans surgery in children cannot be discussed without it being considered hate speech? Give me a break 

I'd say it would all depend on what was said during the discussion.  

[Master Mind]

11 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I was reminded that I did not reply to this post yesterday.   It came in at a busy time and I forgot to get back to it until now, when I saw it again.

 

You seem to be asking a question on both cluster outbreak and rapid outbreaks.   As well as the effects of social media.  And the isolation of the pandemic.

 

Clusters happen.   Coincidences occur.  To try to explain why a particular cluster or coincidence took place would require study of all related circumstances to that event and I can't do that from here.  

 

The affects of social media on young people, both adverse and positive, is an ongoing study.    I am not equipped to comment with any authority how it fits in to sexual identity though my gut feeling is that it is more commonly associated with concerns on things like weight, hair, makeup, and being thought of as cool and popular.

 

With apologies, I have to question if the scenario you describe in your daughter's class even took place.   For one thing, I think you would have mentioned it pages ago.  For another, given typical class sizes in BC, and typical boy/girl ratios,  it would mean about 30% of the girls in that class decided to change their pronouns.  That is quite the cluster.  Or coincidence.    As you point out yourself it seems like too big a coincidence.   

 

 

I am asking all those things, as I think there is a connection. At least for some, such as the scenario I've witnessed. I've seen the notion of social contagion labelled as hateful, and I don't see why that would be the case when we're looking at the possibility of it impacting some, but not all.

 

I believe I did mention it on the old forum. I don't want to repeat things too often as that feels spammy. I'm in Ontario, but it looks like the class sizes are similar. Yes it was a high percentage as you note, which is why I think it's too big of a coincidence, especially since they were all friends beforehand.

 

I have nothing to gain by lying or exaggerating. I'm trying to make sense of it, and social contagion seems like the most likely scenario here, but I'm open to other ideas, hence why I ask.

[Wiggums]

Just now, Satchmo said:

I'd say it would all depend on what was said during the discussion.  

 

I'd say no we're just not allowed to talk about it.  It's a typical liberal tactic, claim racism, bigotry etc get the other opinion stifled and carry on with your day.  

 

Imagine actually using the report feature cause you're so intolerant to other opinions.  Brutal

[The Lock]

8 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

 

The example of your friend is very unfortunate, and I'm sorry to hear that. As I mentioned, there are scenarios where it is better to not tell the parents, but I also believe there are scenarios where it is better. I don't know of a solution that helps everyone in the best way possible. It is great that we are looking out for others, but I think it is more helpful to be aware of all scenarios.

 

I imagine the nicknames/short forms won't be enforced, even if they fall under that legislation.

 

That isn't the interpretation I get from people supporting the parents rights. Sure, that may be the case for some, but I think it's mostly people doing what they think is best for their kids.

 

See, in my opinion, it's better for the kids to open up when they feel it's time. Sometimes, that time could be early on, other times it could be never. No legislation can interpret nor can it account for these factors and not all parents have the kids' best interests in mind.

 

It's also why I think any legislation towards it is just not going to work in the end. That being said, legislation never completely solves problems either.

[The Lock]

11 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

Ahh yes, report and get them cancelled.   The most common and most cowardice play in the liberal playbook

 

The Topic of trans surgery in children cannot be discussed without it being considered hate speech? Give me a break 

 

You're only saying this because you're getting called out for bigotry.

 

Because... you know.. it's never your own fault....

Edited February 5 by The Lock

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

Imagine actually using the report feature cause you're so intolerant to other opinions.  Brutal

Imagine legislators wanting schools to report that a child may be trans because they're so intolerant of their identity.  Brutal.

[Satchmo]

Just now, Master Mind said:

 

I am asking all those things, as I think there is a connection. At least for some, such as the scenario I've witnessed. I've seen the notion of social contagion labelled as hateful, and I don't see why that would be the case when we're looking at the possibility of it impacting some, but not all.

 

I believe I did mention it on the old forum. I don't want to repeat things too often as that feels spammy. I'm in Ontario, but it looks like the class sizes are similar. Yes it was a high percentage as you note, which is why I think it's too big of a coincidence, especially since they were all friends beforehand.

 

I have nothing to gain by lying or exaggerating. I'm trying to make sense of it, and social contagion seems like the most likely scenario here, but I'm open to other ideas, hence why I ask.

I appreciate your considered response.  In retrospect I think mine might have been a bit harsh.

 

I too have wondered if some aspects of all this might be because of trend following, teen age rebellion, and a wish to be in vogue.   If so, I would suspect it would be on the part of a minority.   A pronoun changing club still has a ways to go before they decide to take any further actions.    I would suspect that anyone truly considering to do so has more on their mind.

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

You're only saying this because you're getting called out for bigotry.

 

Because... you know.. it's never your own fault....

Why take personal responsibility when you can fly a FTrudeau flag on your F-350 with lift kit, right above the truck nuts?

[Wiggums]

4 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

You're only saying this because you're getting called out for bigotry.

 

Because... you know.. it's never your own fault....

 

Yeah that's what you guys call it.  I get it and yeah I got penalized so you got your wish big man.  Congrats on the report, very liberal of you

 

Same thing happened in the old thread.  All conservative posters got banned and you guys rode off into the sunsets together

 

Misskorea can go around yelling and calling people fucking idiots but noo talking about surgery in children because it's somehow bigoted and not allowed.  

 

So yeah, you win, won't comment on it anymore.  Like I said, congrats

Edited February 5 by Wiggums

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

I appreciate your considered response.  In retrospect I think mine might have been a bit harsh.

 

I too have wondered if some aspects of all this might be because of trend following, teen age rebellion, and a wish to be in vogue.   If so, I would suspect it would be on the part of a minority.   A pronoun changing club still has a ways to go before they decide to take any further actions.    I would suspect that anyone truly considering to do so has more on their mind.

Could also be a group deciding that they don't want their friend to be ostracized and they're trying to support them.

[The Lock]

Just now, Wiggums said:

 

Yeah that's what you guys call it.  I get it and yeah I got penalized so you got your wish big man.  Congrats on the report, very liberal of you

 

Same thing happened in the old thread.  All conservative posters got banned and you guys rode off into the sunsets together

 

Misskorea can go around yelling and calling people fucking idiots but noo talking about surgery in children because it's somehow bigoted and not allowed.  

 

So yeah, you win, won't comment on it anymore.  Like I said, congrats

 

You're welcome to have a differing opinion. There is however a line that goes beyond politics or left vs right. You went across that line.

 

Own up to your mistakes rather than having a temper tantrum about it.

[Satchmo]

7 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

 

1) I'd say no we're just not allowed to talk about it. 

2) It's a typical liberal tactic, claim racism, bigotry etc get the other opinion stifled and carry on with your day.  

 

3) Imagine actually using the report feature cause you're so intolerant to other opinions.  Brutal

1) You would be wrong to say that.

2) WTF?

3) I am not a fan of that action.   As you've seen the mods did not over react. 

[Optimist Prime]

28 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

That isn't the interpretation I get from people supporting the parents rights. Sure, that may be the case for some, but I think it's mostly people doing what they think is best for their kids.

or what is best for 'their family name"? Just a query, i don't really know. For me it is in similar territory to honour killings among other religions than christianity. Same vibe, very different level of issue.

[Wiggums]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

You're welcome to have a differing opinion. There is however a line that goes beyond politics or left vs right. You went across that line.

 

Own up to your mistakes rather than having a temper tantrum about it.

 

How?  What exactly was crossing the line?  

 

What did you report?

[The Lock]

8 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

How?  What exactly was crossing the line?  

 

What did you report?

 

First of all, I reported the other guy, not you technically.

 

And it was for hate speech against trans. I have friends who are trans and I am of the mindset that the inclusivity of trans shouldn't be a political issue to begin with. Trans shouldn't even be an issue socially but there's a lot of people out there who are still fearful of it; thus, they participate in hate speech.

 

And, for the record, I still think there are areas that need to be ironed out when it comes to things like athletics (an issue for another time). But beyond that, we should be inclusive of these groups and I think hate speech only exposes the weak-minded who are unable to get around the notion of inclusivity.

 

Now, I haven't really read your posts the last couple of days. I didn't really care to, but I'm saying all of this to be open. Because I hope you learn from it.

Edited February 5 by The Lock

[Miss Korea]

13 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

 

Yeah that's what you guys call it.  I get it and yeah I got penalized so you got your wish big man.  Congrats on the report, very liberal and soft of you.

 

Same thing happened in the old thread.  All conservative posters got banned and you guys rode off into the sunsets together

 

Misskorea can go around yelling and calling people fucking idiots but noo talking about surgery in children because it's somehow bigoted and not allowed.  

 

So yeah, you win, won't comment on it anymore.  Like I said, congrats

 

All you keep talking about is boys raping girls in the washroom.  We've told you to stop with that shit but you keep saying the same old garbage every time.  Common sense my ass.  You're fucked up, dude.

[Wiggums]

Just now, The Lock said:

 

First of all, I reported the other guy, not you technically.

 

And it was for hate speech against trans. I have friends who are trans and I am of the mindset that the inclusivity of trans shouldn't be a political issue to between with. Trans shouldn't even be an issue socially but there's a lot of people out there who are still fearful of it; thus, they participate in hate speech.

 

And, for the record, I still think there are areas that need to be ironed out when it comes to things like athletics (an issue for another time). But beyond that, we should be inclusive of these groups and I think hate speech only exposes the weak-minded who are unable to get around the notion of inclusivity.

 

So worrying about children having this type of surgery, especially without parental consent is bigoted?  Have me or him ever actually said we don't support trans people? 

 

Where is the actual hate speech?  Speech you are.hurt by doesn't count as hate speech 

[aGENT]

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Instead, alot of their base has shifted elsewhere.  1 in 3 gen z'ers are polling to vote Conservative right now.  Liberals can call them ignorant, uninformed, stupid, whatever they want, but at the end of the day that is 14% of the voter base that is pissed off that they can't even afford their rent right now and that home ownership may never happen for them.

 

And that has very little to do with the Liberals and in fact gets worse under the Cons as other things like social services cuts, privatized health care etc make life more expensive under Conservative governments. Pushing them even further from affording those things. I get it, people are emotional, it's economically very challenging out there due to a shit tonne of (largely global) events conspiring against affordability. But reacting (and voting) emotionally for a party that's even further against your best interests does indeed seem "ignorant and uninformed" (as well as emotionally charged).

 

But you're probably right, people usually make wise, reasoned decisions while emotionally charged 

 

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

They don't believe in politicians anymore, they think they are all liars.  Which they are.

 

Anyone that ever believed most politicians is deluded. That's not a new phenomena.

 

 

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

 

So worrying about children having this type of surgery, especially without parental consent is bigoted?  Have me or him ever actually said we don't support trans people? 

 

Where is the actual hate speech?  Speech you are.hurt by doesn't count as hate speech 

Have you done any research to find out just how often what you are so opposed to actually happens?   And at what age it happens?  And what happens before and after?

 

Edited February 5 by Satchmo

[King Heffy]

3 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

All you keep talking about is boys raping girls in the washroom.  We've told you to stop with that shit but you keep saying the same old garbage every time.  Common sense my ass.  You're fucked up, dude.

I wish they'd put this kind of effort into solving the very real problem of sexual abuse within organized religion.  Statistically, a child is far safer with a trans person than a priest.

[Satchmo]

6 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

All you keep talking about is boys raping girls in the washroom.  We've told you to stop with that shit but you keep saying the same old garbage every time.  Common sense my ass.  You're fucked up, dude.

I think you and I agree on a lot of things but not on tactics.   Is that comment really helpful in promoting your ideas and opinions?