Bob Long Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, the destroyer of worlds said: It's going to be hard when you have a significant percentage of people whose political identity is "owning the Libtards". I don't really see how you can get political parties that have these people in the base to agree to progressive ideas. I think the lefties can hurt the cause as well depending on how they engage in it. Yes people like Poilievre and Smith are frustratingly thick, but we have to get through that somehow. We used to say a lot of things about mental illness that was politically sided, but most people now would agree its a treatment issue not something else like bad parenting, which used to be a prevalent idea. I just don't see any other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 24 minutes ago, 112 said: Most people who use know what their tolerance is and how much they can safely use. It's when things are cut with fentanyl and carfentanyl that overdoses are more common. That's what safe supply means. Are you sure the program doesn't reduce deaths and property crimes? So giving a "safe" supply of heroin to an addict has zero possibility of that person dying? Doesn't regular use of heroin and cocaine cause heart and lung damage? If a heart is already weakened due to regular abuse, can that person not drop dead even after taking a 'safe" supply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: I think the lefties can hurt the cause as well depending on how they engage in it. Yes people like Poilievre and Smith are frustratingly thick, but we have to get through that somehow. We used to say a lot of things about mental illness that was politically sided, but most people now would agree its a treatment issue not something else like bad parenting, which used to be a prevalent idea. I just don't see any other way. Yes, lefties can hurt the cause. Yes, we need the other side to accept reality. There is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 I think there is no one single solution to the drug addiction problem. It requires a multifaceted approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 8 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said: It's going to be hard when you have a significant percentage of people whose political identity is "owning the Libtards". I don't really see how you can get political parties that have these people in the base to agree to progressive ideas. This issue has been going on for decades through multiple governments. The downtown eastside hasn't changed since the 1980's. So I don't agree that this is a political issue, even though politicians on both sides will try to exploit it for political purposes like they do everything else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, the destroyer of worlds said: Yes, lefties can hurt the cause. Yes, we need the other side to accept reality. There is the problem. I have to think there's enough people on the right side of the spectrum, the old moderates maybe?, that could agree on a plan thats shed of politics from all parties, and just focused on a sensible de-moralized treatment plan. Or maybe I'm just out to lunch thinking its possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: This issue has been going on for decades through multiple governments. The downtown eastside hasn't changed since the 1980's. So I don't agree that this is a political issue, even though politicians on both sides will try to exploit it for political purposes like they do everything else... Not a political issue? Yet, the majority of votes that go against programs like safe injection sites, safe supply, and legalization seem to come from one side of the political spectrum. One side that consistently is opposed. One side that has prominent members who spoke/speak against them. What side could that be? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Prime Minister Trudeau rejects Quebec request for full powers over immigration https://www.timescolonist.com/national-news/prime-minister-trudeau-rejects-quebec-request-for-full-powers-over-immigration-8449374 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 minutes ago, Bob Long said: I have to think there's enough people on the right side of the spectrum, the old moderates maybe?, that could agree on a plan thats shed of politics from all parties, and just focused on a sensible de-moralized treatment plan. Or maybe I'm just out to lunch thinking it’s possible. In the party or voters? If the party is popular and polling I don’t see politicians pivoting from the party norm even if they don’t agree with it. Dissent within a party of any sort isn’t a good look especially with an election looming and politicians have no balls. Voters are probably the same way to a lesser extent. They got a lot less to lose not agreeing with party norms, are more like sheep and are willing give their party a longer leash on things if it achieves them victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, the destroyer of worlds said: Not a political issue? Yet, the majority of votes that go against programs like safe injection sites, safe supply, and legalization seem to come from one side of the political spectrum. One side that consistently is opposed. One side that has prominent members who spoke/speak against them. What side could that be? So, in how many provinces is heroin and cocaine legal? ZERO? So how is it a political issue? BC is the only province where hard drugs are "decriminalized". Also, in 2023 there were more overdoses in BC than in any other prior year. So, how exactly is this "safe" supply" working out? Maybe that is why "one side" is speaking out? Records broken as more than 2,500 people die from overdoses in BC in 2023 (kelownanow.com) Records broken as more than 2,500 people die from overdoses in BC in 2023 The BC Coroners Service has revealed there were 2,511 suspected illicit drug deaths last year, the highest annual toll ever recorded. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: In the party or voters? If the party is popular and polling I don’t see politicians pivoting from the party norm even if they don’t agree with it. Dissent within a party of any sort isn’t a good look especially with an election looming and politicians have no balls. Voters are probably the same way to a lesser extent. They got a lot less to lose not agreeing with party norms, are more like sheep and are willing give their party a longer leash on things if it achieves them victory. more the voters. If there's clear support from moderate conservatives then things can move ahead. I don't think you need to convince the extreme folks. People arguing that one chemical is OK because it kills you and or destroys families slower, is kind of silly. People are addicts, who cares what chemical it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: So, in how many provinces is heroin and cocaine legal? ZERO? So how is it a political issue? BC is the only province where hard drugs are "decriminalized". Also, in 2023 there were more overdoses in BC than in any other prior year. So, how exactly is this "safe" supply" working out? Maybe that is why "one side" is speaking out? Records broken as more than 2,500 people die from overdoses in BC in 2023 (kelownanow.com) Records broken as more than 2,500 people die from overdoses in BC in 2023 The BC Coroners Service has revealed there were 2,511 suspected illicit drug deaths last year, the highest annual toll ever recorded. You want us to re-criminalize hard drug use? Are you being serious right now? You want to send those users to JAIL?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 5 minutes ago, Miss Korea said: You want us to re-criminalize hard drug use? Are you being serious right now? You want to send those users to JAIL?? its worth looking at who is dying: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/82-003-x/2021002/article/00003/tbl/tbl03-eng.htm 36% of people were employed in 2016 that died from an overdose. In 54% of deaths people were not on social assistance. These are not criminals, they are the guy building your condo or serving you at a hotel. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 34 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: So giving a "safe" supply of heroin to an addict has zero possibility of that person dying? Doesn't regular use of heroin and cocaine cause heart and lung damage? If a heart is already weakened due to regular abuse, can that person not drop dead even after taking a 'safe" supply? The problem is that they're using whether or not they're being prescribed. It's much safer when they know what they're taking. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 minutes ago, Bob Long said: more the voters. If there's clear support from moderate conservatives then things can move ahead. I don't think you need to convince the extreme folks. People arguing that one chemical is OK because it kills you and or destroys families slower, is kind of silly. People are addicts, who cares what chemical it is? Voters would need to talk with their MPs and participate in polls on the topic, particularly ones that get headlines. It would require bipartisan conversations on a grand scale. That’s easier said than done. Maybe if there was protests on this issue then bigger conversations could be had but it is not as divisive as what we usually see with wedge topics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: So, in how many provinces is heroin and cocaine legal? ZERO? So how is it a political issue? BC is the only province where hard drugs are "decriminalized". Also, in 2023 there were more overdoses in BC than in any other prior year. So, how exactly is this "safe" supply" working out? Maybe that is why "one side" is speaking out? Records broken as more than 2,500 people die from overdoses in BC in 2023 (kelownanow.com) Records broken as more than 2,500 people die from overdoses in BC in 2023 The BC Coroners Service has revealed there were 2,511 suspected illicit drug deaths last year, the highest annual toll ever recorded. What is your opinion on methadone? My wife has a lot of patients who she has to give it out to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: Voters would need to talk with their MPs and participate in polls on the topic, particularly ones that get headlines. It would require bipartisan conversations on a grand scale. That’s easier said than done. Maybe if there was protests on this issue then bigger conversations could be had but it is not as divisive as what we usually see with wedge topics. when you think of the kind of thing Bieksa did with mental health awareness, that kind of thing can do so much good. I'm sure he turned some folks around on the issue. I think the same kind of thing can be done on this issue. Again, you can't convince everyone but you don't need to. Some people will always think one chemical is more moral than another, and you just have to work around them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 14 minutes ago, Miss Korea said: You want us to re-criminalize hard drug use? Are you being serious right now? You want to send those users to JAIL?? Why not? Isn't that what everyone else does? Also, hard drug use has only been "de-criminalized" in BC. Not in the rest of Canada or any other part of North America. In Oregon, they de-criminalized hard drugs in 2020. They were the first state to do it. Guess what, they just re-criminalized them this year. Why is that? Why Oregon is recriminalizing even small amounts of illicit drugs : NPR Three years after Oregon became the first state in the country to decriminalize drug use - that's including drugs like methamphetamines and fentanyl - the experiment now appears to be dead. State lawmakers sent a bill last week to Oregon's governor that would once again make it a crime to possess small, personal-use amounts of drugs. What's happening in Oregon could end up reshaping the national debate over how to respond to America's deadly fentanyl crisis. NPR addiction correspondent Brian Mann and Oregon Public Broadcasting reporter Conrad Wilson have been following this and join us now. Hey to both of you. CONRAD WILSON, BYLINE: Hi, Ailsa. BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: Hi there. CHANG: So, Conrad, I want to start with you because I need you to catch us up here. Go back in time and explain why Oregon voters decided to decriminalize personal drug use in the first place. WILSON: So the idea was to make addiction something that, in Oregon, would be almost entirely dealt with as a public health issue. So, you know, think clinics with doctors, nurses. And really, the hope was to sever the connection between substance use and the criminal justice system. So when voters passed ballot measure 110 in 2020, there was a lot of hope that Oregon could try something different to keep people out of prisons and jails. Not only did measure 110 decriminalize small amounts of hard drugs. It also dedicated hundreds of millions of dollars in funding to expand treatment. That part isn't going away. CHANG: Right. OK. Then fast-forward three years to today, and Oregon is abandoning the decriminalization part of this whole experiment. Why the shift? WILSON: Well, a lot of Oregonians blame Measure 110 for the rise in overdose deaths and a worsening homelessness crisis. But Oregon has long had a shortage of affordable housing, and some researchers say fentanyl is to blame for the spike in overdose deaths. The opioid entered the state's drug supply at roughly the same time voters passed Measure 110. Still, lawmakers went into this legislative session under a lot of pressure to recriminalize drugs. The debate around the bill on both sides was really heated. Jesse Merrithew is a civil rights attorney in Portland. He told lawmakers that decriminalization - it might reduce the street problems, but it isn't going to help people who are struggling with addiction. JESSE MERRITHEW: The difference now is that instead of leaving people on the street to suffer in public, you're going to leave people in jail cells to suffer. But there, they'll be out of sight and out of mind. WILSON: But others testified it was the criminal consequences or the threat that helped them stop using drugs. Renee Peffer (ph) now works with law enforcement, helping people struggling with addiction, and says she's been sober for 20 years. RENEE PEFFER: I had a choice. I could go to prison, or I could go to treatment. I actually spent enough time in jail for my head to clear out, and I'm very grateful that I was given the opportunity to go get treatment instead of going to prison. WILSON: And that's what got us to last week, where the legislature's Democrats and Republicans overwhelmingly voted to recriminalize drugs. CHANG: OK. Well, Brian, can you just expand the scope here? Like, why is the backlash against this experiment in Oregon kind of a big deal nationally? MANN: Yeah. Ailsa, this is being watched really closely all over the country, in part because drug deaths are so grim right now, topping 112,000 fatal overdoses a year. There was hope Oregon's experiment would offer some answers and offer a roadmap also for how to dismantle the so-called war on drugs. That's the set of really tough state and federal crime laws that punish people with addiction, hitting Black and Hispanic families especially hard. Researchers now say the science is clear that when you criminalize addiction, it does help a small number of people, but a lot more are actually likely to die from overdoses. I spoke about this with Dr. Nora Volkow, who heads the National Institute on Drug Abuse. She's the federal government's top expert on addiction. NORA VOLKOW: The data show much more detrimental effects. It's at least thirteenfold higher risk of dying when these individuals are released from jail or prison, extremely high rates of mortality. MANN: The reason that happens, experts say, is people get out of custody without getting drug treatment. They often go back to using, and that's when they're really vulnerable to fatal overdoses. Now it appears likely Oregon is going to go back to this policy of sending people to jail for addiction. CHANG: Well, do you think this shift in Oregon will have an effect on the wider debate over drug decriminalization, then? MANN: Yeah, that's what I'm hearing from public health experts. They had hoped that success in Oregon would help the rest of the country shift in a new direction. Now that hope is gone. I spoke about this with Kassandra Frederique. She heads the Drug Policy Alliance. That's one of the national groups that backed Measure 110 in Oregon. KASSANDRA FREDERIQUE: It's a disappointing setback for a hard-won bill. It was not easy to do in Oregon. It won't be easy now, right? We are experiencing a major backlash for drug policy. Yes, this is a setback. MANN: So what's happening in Oregon is echoing for a lot of smaller experiments around the country trying to shift the addiction response toward health care and treatment, away from police and incarceration. And now, Ailsa, a lot of those smaller projects are facing the same kind of backlash and loss of political support we're seeing in Oregon. CHANG: But it is worth mentioning that despite recriminalizing small amounts of drug possession, Oregon is still on track to spend a lot more money than it has in the past on addiction care, right, Conrad? WILSON: That's right. Lawmakers appear committed to funding treatment and really even boosting it. During the past three years, treatment has slowly expanded. But right now many communities in Oregon still don't have enough space in rehab and recovery programs, even for people who want and are desperately seeking addiction care. So in theory, this bill that's been sent to the governor gives people a choice between criminalization and drug treatment, but experts say that kind of health care system just doesn't exist yet. They think a lot of these very ill people will simply wind up in jail. CHANG: That is Conrad Wilson with Oregon Public Broadcasting in Portland, along with NPR addiction correspondent Brian Mann in New York. Thank you to both of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 18 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said: What is your opinion on methadone? My wife has a lot of patients who she has to give it out to. Not too familiar with it but I know it's used for withdrawal symptoms. Does it work? Who does your wife give it to? What are the worst side effects from it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 10 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Not too familiar with it but I know it's used for withdrawal symptoms. Does it work? Who does your wife give it to? What are the worst side effects from it? Methadone is a medicine used to treat heroin dependence. It is taken daily to relieve heroin withdrawal symptoms and reduce cravings for heroin. Her patients have to take it in the pharmacy before they can leave. https://www.bcpharmacy.ca/news/methadone-maintenance-treatment-what-you-need-know 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: I have to think there's enough people on the right side of the spectrum, the old moderates maybe?, that could agree on a plan thats shed of politics from all parties, and just focused on a sensible de-moralized treatment plan. Or maybe I'm just out to lunch thinking its possible. People like me question the real value of a maintenance program. Understanding the reasons for addictions and then creating a program the actually leads to a drug free life seems to be the way to go. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 6 minutes ago, Boudrias said: People like me question the real value of a maintenance program. Understanding the reasons for addictions and then creating a program the actually leads to a drug free life seems to be the way to go. So as a life long, and at times politically active, conservative, who would you need to see the message from to get behind the program? Could it be from an all-party committee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: So as a life long, and at times politically active, conservative, who would you need to see the message from to get behind the program? Could it be from an all-party committee? Why not? If memory serves the program in Portland was a ‘cold turkey’ approach that people signed themselves into. They got counseling as part of their rehab. Not sure of the time frame but 60-90 days seems to ring a bell. At that the recidivism was +30%. A worker in the program claimed anything less than this approach was a waste of time. This isn’t a political issue IMHO. It is about positive results. Knowing why drug use became a method of coping with life? Was the problem medical, economic, emotional….? Do people think conservatives don’t care about the people in their lives who fall into this lifestyle? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Boudrias said: Why not? If memory serves the program in Portland was a ‘cold turkey’ approach that people signed themselves into. They got counseling as part of their rehab. Not sure of the time frame but 60-90 days seems to ring a bell. At that the recidivism was +30%. A worker in the program claimed anything less than this approach was a waste of time. This isn’t a political issue IMHO. It is about positive results. Knowing why drug use became a method of coping with life? Was the problem medical, economic, emotional….? A mixed bag of reasons. I don't think the reason matters, it's the commitment to treating people. 1 hour ago, Boudrias said: Do people think conservatives don’t care about the people in their lives who fall into this lifestyle? Yes, they do think that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 hours ago, Bob Long said: I think the lefties can hurt the cause as well depending on how they engage in it. Yes people like Poilievre and Smith are frustratingly thick, but we have to get through that somehow. We used to say a lot of things about mental illness that was politically sided, but most people now would agree its a treatment issue not something else like bad parenting, which used to be a prevalent idea. I just don't see any other way. Why the absolute hell is addiction, mental health issues now a lefty/righty thing? Is there any aspect of life people will not politicize or draw political lines across? 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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