Satchmo Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 11 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: Probably not, but similar is working in other countries. And clearly the stupid shit we are doing here isn’t working. Let’s just make the drugs legal! That will stop people from using them and keep bad drugs off the street! hahahaha. What a stupid fucking idea. Creating a scenario where someone is forced to get and stay clean for long enough to become a straight thinking person again, followed by stable housing and a job, combined with counselling and forced to attend meetings. Get clean, here is how you stay clean. We will help you. or Do drugs. Live on the streets and do what you can to get drugs. But don’t worry, we won’t do anything to you when we see you doing heroin on the streets in front of families and storefronts. We are not likely to agree on this one. I think we have had many years of sending addicts to jail with little success. We have not had much more success with rehab. What you describe in theory would likely be very hard, and costly, to put into practice. 'stable housing and a job, combined with counselling and forced to attend meetings' sounds great. How will it actually be done? I do agree that we have done some stupid shit. I do not fully agree with your assessment of 'legal drugs'. I see some benefits when it is all described as 'harm reduction' and used to limit the insane amount of od's taking place. I will also readily admit that drug addiction is a very complex problem for which I can offer no solutions. I just know I think yours is a little Draconian. It's bad cop/good cop rolled into one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 8 minutes ago, Warhippy said: This works in a number of european nations where the issues related to drug use are quite diminished due to these programs Which ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kootenay Gold Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 1 hour ago, D.B Cooper said: years of addiction Not all mental health issues are because of addiction but you do have a point for those that are. I was not very clear on that distinction in my previous post. Our own personal interaction was strictly a mental health issue where the patient was never a threat to anyone; entered treatment center voluntarily but when she wanted to leave after 6 months, they changed it to involuntary treatment without informing her of her right to appeal. That changed dramatically when we informed them that we would be seeking legal council on her behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 2 hours ago, Satchmo said: Which ones? See: Portugal https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-drug-decriminalization-a-failure-or-success-the-answer-isnt-so-simple/#:~:text=Portugal had the lowest drug,the same amount of time. https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13011-021-00394-7 Sweden https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-policy-in-sweden-a-repressive-approach-that-increases-harm https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2023.1106509/full Denmark https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/node/2580_ro#:~:text=The Social Services Administration is,to the Social Service Act. https://www.barrons.com/news/denmark-to-double-drug-penalties-in-capital-s-pusher-street-c22370c5 Netherlands https://www.iamsterdam.com/en/travel-stay/visitor-information/hard-drugs-and-street-dealers https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/what-is-addiction-care Switzerland https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7552491/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11390430_Modes_and_Impact_of_Coercive_Inpatient_Treatment_for_Drug-Related_Conditions_in_Switzerland Belgium (recent) https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/2138-mental-health-study-2009-BE.pdf All nations that have adopted a model in which drug related offences are treated with mandatory mental health and work rehabilitation until proven that the individual in question is incapable of change or is deemed a permanent public threat in which case it is a mandatory lock up for the safety of the general population. This is not a blanket approach as some nations have a far less tolerant view of decriminalization while others have a fully decriminalized policy but all have similar views on mandatory abstinence/detox, rehab, mental health and lock up/retraining of repeat offenders The EU's compulsory commitment to care and rehab laws essentially state or allow for nations to lock up individuals with mental health addiction problems and force themt o rehab, they allow for those locked up individuals to be part of work gangs on national projects or for municipal/federal clean up projects and they allow for those deemed violent non fixable types to be locked up for the safety of the general population. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Warhippy said: See: Portugal https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-drug-decriminalization-a-failure-or-success-the-answer-isnt-so-simple/#:~:text=Portugal had the lowest drug,the same amount of time. https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13011-021-00394-7 Sweden https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-policy-in-sweden-a-repressive-approach-that-increases-harm https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2023.1106509/full Denmark https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/node/2580_ro#:~:text=The Social Services Administration is,to the Social Service Act. https://www.barrons.com/news/denmark-to-double-drug-penalties-in-capital-s-pusher-street-c22370c5 Netherlands https://www.iamsterdam.com/en/travel-stay/visitor-information/hard-drugs-and-street-dealers https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/what-is-addiction-care Switzerland https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7552491/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11390430_Modes_and_Impact_of_Coercive_Inpatient_Treatment_for_Drug-Related_Conditions_in_Switzerland Belgium (recent) https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/2138-mental-health-study-2009-BE.pdf All nations that have adopted a model in which drug related offences are treated with mandatory mental health and work rehabilitation until proven that the individual in question is incapable of change or is deemed a permanent public threat in which case it is a mandatory lock up for the safety of the general population. This is not a blanket approach as some nations have a far less tolerant view of decriminalization while others have a fully decriminalized policy but all have similar views on mandatory abstinence/detox, rehab, mental health and lock up/retraining of repeat offenders The EU's compulsory commitment to care and rehab laws essentially state or allow for nations to lock up individuals with mental health addiction problems and force themt o rehab, they allow for those locked up individuals to be part of work gangs on national projects or for municipal/federal clean up projects and they allow for those deemed violent non fixable types to be locked up for the safety of the general population. Lot's of reading Hip. I've already researched Portugal's approach as it seems to be the gold standard. They do not lock anyone up (apart from dealers found with a large amount of drugs). If they do not, do I really have to read all that to see if 'All nations that have adopted a model in which drug related offences are treated with mandatory mental health and work rehabilitation'? EDIT - let's not forget that this is the statement that got me started on this: I think a 2-5 year sentence in a jail/rehab facility is the way to go. Will that approach be described in any of your linked docs? Edited March 17 by Satchmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 3 hours ago, Satchmo said: Lot's of reading Hip. I've already researched Portugal's approach as it seems to be the gold standard. They do not lock anyone up (apart from dealers found with a large amount of drugs). If they do not, do I really have to read all that to see if 'All nations that have adopted a model in which drug related offences are treated with mandatory mental health and work rehabilitation'? EDIT - let's not forget that this is the statement that got me started on this: I think a 2-5 year sentence in a jail/rehab facility is the way to go. Will that approach be described in any of your linked docs? Yes. As stated european nations have a very clear style of rehab. it is nation specific but by and large european nations approach drug crime/mental health and addiction and rehab very similarly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 58 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Yes. As stated european nations have a very clear style of rehab. it is nation specific but by and large european nations approach drug crime/mental health and addiction and rehab very similarly Yes to what? I asked two questions although the only one I really want to know the answer to is if you think European addicts are packed off to a 2 - 5 year sentence in a jail/rehab facility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 7 hours ago, Satchmo said: We are not likely to agree on this one. I think we have had many years of sending addicts to jail with little success. We have not had much more success with rehab. we haven’t tried a forced rehab, homing/jobs/counselling program. we have really only tried decriminalizing, which has done fuck all. 7 hours ago, Satchmo said: What you describe in theory would likely be very hard, and costly, to put into practice. 'stable housing and a job, combined with counselling and forced to attend meetings' sounds great. How will it actually be done? We are wasting money on the same shit that hasn’t worked. This has had success in European countries. 7 hours ago, Satchmo said: I do agree that we have done some stupid shit. I do not fully agree with your assessment of 'legal drugs'. I see some benefits when it is all described as 'harm reduction' and used to limit the insane amount of od's taking place. It hasn’t actually helped at all though….. 7 hours ago, Satchmo said: I will also readily admit that drug addiction is a very complex problem for which I can offer no solutions. I just know I think yours is a little Draconian. It's bad cop/good cop rolled into one. So, we haven’t seen a reduction in ods with the legal drugs bs. Oldschool and aggressive….. yup sure. Ive had a lot of friends die who would have healed if made too or forced to see the help is there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 29 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: we haven’t tried a forced rehab, homing/jobs/counselling program. we have really only tried decriminalizing, which has done fuck all. We are wasting money on the same shit that hasn’t worked. This has had success in European countries. It hasn’t actually helped at all though….. So, we haven’t seen a reduction in ods with the legal drugs bs. Oldschool and aggressive….. yup sure. Ive had a lot of friends die who would have healed if made too or forced to see the help is there. I've never heard of a forced rehab, homing/jobs/counselling program done in implementation, do we have any case study or results from a European country or any other place doing this with decent/good results? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spur1 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 42 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: we haven’t tried a forced rehab, homing/jobs/counselling program. we have really only tried decriminalizing, which has done fuck all. We are wasting money on the same shit that hasn’t worked. This has had success in European countries. It hasn’t actually helped at all though….. So, we haven’t seen a reduction in ods with the legal drugs bs. Oldschool and aggressive….. yup sure. Ive had a lot of friends die who would have healed if made too or forced to see the help is there. How do you know it has done eff all as you say. I think it has saved lives even if it is a small fraction of the addicts. That being said the mental health system is totally failing mostly due to funding not to mention attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, Satchmo said: Yes to what? I asked two questions although the only one I really want to know the answer to is if you think European addicts are packed off to a 2 - 5 year sentence in a jail/rehab facility. You seem to be stuck on this 2-5 year thing that was clearly just a number I shot out of my head during an idea. Hippy gave lots of good info. Maybe read it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 22 minutes ago, DSVII said: I've never heard of a forced rehab, homing/jobs/counselling program done in implementation, do we have any case study or results from a European country or any other place doing this with decent/good results? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious. Check out @Warhippypost above. He gave more good info than I’d search for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 45 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: we haven’t tried a forced rehab, homing/jobs/counselling program. we have really only tried decriminalizing, which has done fuck all. We are wasting money on the same shit that hasn’t worked. This has had success in European countries. It hasn’t actually helped at all though….. So, we haven’t seen a reduction in ods with the legal drugs bs. Oldschool and aggressive….. yup sure. Ive had a lot of friends die who would have healed if made too or forced to see the help is there. 13 minutes ago, DSVII said: I've never heard of a forced rehab, homing/jobs/counselling program done in implementation, do we have any case study or results from a European country or any other place doing this with decent/good results? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious. I am still waiting for proof that forced rehab, with release at the discretion of the authorities, exists in Western Europe. While waiting, I looked at @Warhippy's documents. A few had nothing to do with the question. A few described outpatient counselling. Only Sweden had forced rehab and the two documents describing it did not do so favorably. So, I remain a proponent for decriminalization, as long as it is used in tandem with the correct social programs, much like is being done in Portugal, Their approach does not sound perfect but looks to be the closest to it. I am steadfastly against 'a 2 - 5 year sentence in a jail/rehab facility.' I've known a few dead drug users too D.B., all talented musicians. I don't think that gives either of us ammunition for our arguments though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 9 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: You seem to be stuck on this 2-5 year thing that was clearly just a number I shot out of my head during an idea. Hippy gave lots of good info. Maybe read it? See above about Hip's links. BTW - how would anybody know the whimsical background of the 2 - 5 year number you proposed so emphatically? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 minute ago, Satchmo said: See above about Hip's links. BTW - how would anybody know the whimsical background of the 2 - 5 year number you proposed so emphatically? Youre hilarious. So, what good has our current approach done? We are still losing people every single day. What has improved under decriminalization? Because I know BC has set a record in 2023 for OD deaths. Decriminalization has statistically made the situation worse. It’s not working. It’s a stupid idea and the morgue will back me up on that. 2511 deaths in 2023 2300 in 2022 So please tell me how my idea is so horrible, when the one you are supporting is making the problem worse? Because the people who will eventually die if they keep going, will be really mad they are being forced to get healthy? Tough shit. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 3 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: Youre hilarious. So, what good has our current approach done? We are still losing people every single day. What has improved under decriminalization? Because I know BC has set a record in 2023 for OD deaths. Decriminalization has statistically made the situation worse. It’s not working. It’s a stupid idea and the morgue will back me up on that. 2511 deaths in 2023 2300 in 2022 So please tell me how my idea is so horrible, when the one you are supporting is making the problem worse? Because the people who will eventually die if they keep going, will be really mad they are being forced to get healthy? Tough shit. Have you actually read anything I wrote? Can you show me just where I say we should just keep on doing what we are doing? Please read Hip's documents Sweden to see what I am opposed to. Please see this one to see what I would support: https://craftsmanship.net/portugals-path-to-breaking-drug-addiction/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 2 minutes ago, Satchmo said: Have you actually read anything I wrote? Can you show me just where I say we should just keep on doing what we are doing? Please read Hip's documents Sweden to see what I am opposed to. Please see this one to see what I would support: https://craftsmanship.net/portugals-path-to-breaking-drug-addiction/ With Sweden, it has proven effective with record low amounts of drug use, but has an increased harm rate…….in the folks that were on a path towards death to being with. I understand what you are getting at, I just don’t agree. Portugal does seem to be doing great, but multiple countries have tried the same thing (us included) and have failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 minute ago, D.B Cooper said: With Sweden, it has proven effective with record low amounts of drug use, but has an increased harm rate…….in the folks that were on a path towards death to being with. I understand what you are getting at, I just don’t agree. Portugal does seem to be doing great, but multiple countries have tried the same thing (us included) and have failed. You mean Portland? I would not call it the same thing. They did not even come close. Nor did Vancouver. Portugal supplies all the warm and fuzzy social programs you propose after incarceration but skips the incarceration part. (I think you just picked your favorite lines in the Swedish doc. Maybe I did too but they sure are different lines.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 3 hours ago, Satchmo said: I am still waiting for proof that forced rehab, with release at the discretion of the authorities, exists in Western Europe. While waiting, I looked at @Warhippy's documents. A few had nothing to do with the question. A few described outpatient counselling. Only Sweden had forced rehab and the two documents describing it did not do so favorably. So, I remain a proponent for decriminalization, as long as it is used in tandem with the correct social programs, much like is being done in Portugal, Their approach does not sound perfect but looks to be the closest to it. I am steadfastly against 'a 2 - 5 year sentence in a jail/rehab facility.' I've known a few dead drug users too D.B., all talented musicians. I don't think that gives either of us ammunition for our arguments though. Decriminalization doesn’t work. It didn’t work in Portland and it’s not working in B.C. either. There were more overdose deaths in B.C. in 2023 than in any year prior. Giving addicts free drugs and pretending the problem is going to go away by that approach is a stupid idea. There is ZERO incentive for an addict to get clean if the drugs are free and are legal to use. Not sure where you live but the downtown east side is even worse now than it was in the 1980’s. Hundreds of people are living on the streets with nowhere to go. And it’s spread to other areas too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) Here's an article on the opioid prescription program, based on a report by Bonnie Henry: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-bonnie-henry-report-prescribed-safe-supply-1.7101874 e: the 2,511 deaths statistic is the number of people who died from unregulated drugs, not prescriptions. correlation and causation are two different things. Edited March 18 by 112 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Decriminalization doesn’t work. It didn’t work in Portland and it’s not working in B.C. either. There were more overdose deaths in B.C. in 2023 than in any year prior. Giving addicts free drugs and pretending the problem is going to go away by that approach is a stupid idea. There is ZERO incentive for an addict to get clean if the drugs are free and are legal to use. Not sure where you live but the downtown east side is even worse now than it was in the 1980’s. Hundreds of people are living on the streets with nowhere to go. And it’s spread to other areas too. I agree. As I have said many times ITT. Decriminalization ALONE does not work. There needs to be much infrastructure in place before it is attempted. All I have been saying is that I do not like the idea of some kind of drug gulag system being part of the infrastructure. If the correct systems are in place, as in Portugal or Belgium, then we have no need of forced incarceration - except for those found with a huge amount of drugs. And just to prove that is really the only point I have been trying to make here it is again: If the correct systems are in place, as in Portugal or Belgium, then we have no need of forced incarceration. I'm kinda hoping that's it for me on this topic... Edited March 18 by Satchmo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) As someone working in corrections I can tell you that rehab is a big part of the system these days. ALOT of residents in our care and custody are addicts. There are also a lot of mental health issues that go hand in hand with the drug use. They closed down most of the psychiatric hospitals and have little support for addicts...so, they end up in prison. Today's drugs are not the same as some of the traditional addictions. In layman's terms, people say things like fentanyl 'punches holes in your brain ' over time. You never really rehab fully from some of these drugs, like you could from cocaine or heroin, you are changed for life. I believe we have good frontline systems however those systems are underfunded and thus understaffed. The courts have to do their parts, they are far too lenient. They have to throw the book at re-offenders. Then, let us do our job properly and correct/rehabilitate these individuals for the safety of all of us. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/justice/criminal-justice/corrections/reducing-reoffending/alternative-placements BC Corrections is continually developing and adopting new approaches to support the individuals who are in our custody. At least 69% of the individuals under our supervision in correctional centres have been diagnosed with mental health or addictions needs, and 42% have been diagnosed with both. Here's some more info on what we do. I work on a 'Right Living' unit. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/justice/criminal-justice/corrections/reducing-reoffending Edited March 18 by bishopshodan 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 14 hours ago, Spur1 said: How do you know it has done eff all as you say. I think it has saved lives even if it is a small fraction of the addicts. That being said the mental health system is totally failing mostly due to funding not to mention attitude. 2511 deaths in 2023 2300 in 2022 less in 2021 and so on….. It’s been a mess and things are getting worse. Just take a walk down Hastings and tell me it’s working. It’s never been so dense and disgusting as it is right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 14 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: 2511 deaths in 2023 2300 in 2022 less in 2021 and so on….. It’s been a mess and things are getting worse. Just take a walk down Hastings and tell me it’s working. It’s never been so dense and disgusting as it is right now. The overdose deaths have been rising year-over-year for well over a decade independent of any safe supply. There are people in the opioid prescription program who would be dead by now if they weren't in it. Fixing Hastings requires a multifaceted approach from all levels of government, whereas the bulk of the responsibility for it has fallen on the municipal government for too long. There are initiatives underway that will be a component of helping people struggling with homelessness and/or addiction. Things like the Canada Disability Benefit, a federal program set to start in December/January (iirc) will no doubt help people into homes by elevating disabled persons above the poverty line. There's also the Red Fish Healing Centre, which does have capacity for involuntary practice, and the provincial government is using it as a model on which to base other recovery centres. Nobody thought that the opioid prescription program would be the lone solution to the drug epidemic, and I really think you're simplifying to the point of banality when you just look at year-over-year deaths and go 'look, it doesn't work'. The reality is that the program has saved lives. Edited March 18 by 112 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 9 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said: 2511 deaths in 2023 2300 in 2022 less in 2021 and so on….. It’s been a mess and things are getting worse. Just take a walk down Hastings and tell me it’s working. It’s never been so dense and disgusting as it is right now. Who here has said what we are doing has been completely successful? I agree with Spur1 that some lives have been saved. I can see that it may be argued that deaths have merely been postponed. We are not going to get anywhere until we put a lot of thought, time, energy, and money into this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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