Canadian Politics Thread

[Dizzle]

10 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

but all of this is just what you think is the main issue. At the end of the day, you are making this choice for someone.

 

Are you going to be there to support these people for their entire lives? other than e.g., getting a religious need filled, where are you going to be for the rest of it?

 

I'm not demonizing you, I'm asking you where you think you get the right to make this decision for someone else. 

 

So far, I just see an argument based on your values, which in a free society isn't what the law is based on.

 

For the record, I wasn’t accusing you of demonizing. I was making a note of what I see in general and I think most of us would be hard pressed to argue it isn’t true that we don’t listen to each other on issues like this. 
 

as for your pushback, yes absolutely, given the opportunity I would be there for people in whatever capacity I am able. I am not sure how that changed the argument in any way shape or form though. If I were to say, ‘no I won’t’ Does that make taking the life of a human okay? Of course it doesn’t. 
 

which brings us back to the question, are unborn babies human or not? 
 

And I did - in fact - answer your question.. if they are, then I have every right to weigh in on other peoples choices that impact whether or not their lives are protected. If they are not human, than my right to weigh in on what someone else does is significantly lessened (although most healthy societies do have some level of care for other people and the choices they make on various levels). 
 

so again, is an unborn baby a human or not? This is what everything we’re arguing about hinges on. 

[bishopshodan]

55 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Oh look @Master Mindwith his usual insight 

 

You're not supposed to tag him in to the convo even though he is doing his drive by baggings again.

 

I see it is already happening on this page.

Abortion issues WILL be on the table as the cons take over. 

 

When does the fetus develop enough to be called a being...? 

Dunno. But you know me..I'm pissed that most people eat animals, ones that are as smart as a 7 year old human animal ...And breeders want me to care about an undeveloped tad-pole of a human animal?

 

Womens right, womens choice.

 

Now, where is my confusy face!?! emoji!

 

 

Edited May 11 by bishopshodan

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Your not supposed to tag him in to the convo even though he is doing his drive by baggings again.

 

Oh missed that rule. I guess he gets to be passive aggressive 

 

I'll stop that then.

 

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

I see it is already happening on this page.

Abortion issues WILL be on the table as the cons take over. 

 

When does the fetus develop enough to be called a being...? 

Dunno. But you know me..I'm pissed that most people eat animals, ones that are as smart as a 7 year old human animal ...And breeders want me to care about an undeveloped tad-pole of a human animal?

 

Womens right, womens choice.

 

This. It's no one else's choice because no one else carries all the risks.

 

 

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

Now, where is my confusy face!?! emoji!

 

 

 

 

Best I could find 

[Bob Long]

11 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

For the record, I wasn’t accusing you of demonizing. I was making a note of what I see in general and I think most of us would be hard pressed to argue it isn’t true that we don’t listen to each other on issues like this. 
 

as for your pushback, yes absolutely, given the opportunity I would be there for people in whatever capacity I am able. I am not sure how that changed the argument in any way shape or form though. If I were to say, ‘no I won’t’ Does that make taking the life of a human okay? Of course it doesn’t. 
 

which brings us back to the question, are unborn babies human or not? 
 

And I did - in fact - answer your question.. if they are, then I have every right to weigh in on other peoples choices that impact whether or not their lives are protected. If they are not human, than my right to weigh in on what someone else does is significantly lessened (although most healthy societies do have some level of care for other people and the choices they make on various levels). 
 

 

A personal motivation is behind much of the support to take away women's rights, only you know what your motivation is

 

11 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

so again, is an unborn baby a human or not? This is what everything we’re arguing about hinges on. 

 

Doesn't matter, that's again the part you want to try to make most important here.

 

A mother faces all the physical, emotional and financial risk. They get to choose, not you or me.

[Dizzle]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

A personal motivation is behind much of the support to take away women's rights, only you know what your motivation is

 

 

Doesn't matter, that's again the part you want to try to make most important here.

 

A mother faces all the physical, emotional and financial risk. They get to choose, not you or me.

How does it not matter if what you are ending is a human life or not? Would you apply that logic anywhere else? 
 

If the baby is a human, then the physical/emotional/financial risk of the mother - while utterly important - is not a justification for ending its life. If the unborn baby is not a human… no big deal. Try as you may to dissuade, that question has to be answered. 

[bishopshodan]

2 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

If the baby is a human

Well, a baby might be.

A fetus could be, it's on it's way. 

 

Since the fetus is parasitic to the female, it's her choice.

 

Figuring out when it's too late is fine, when the fetus could be put in a machine for it continued path to becoming a baby. The raised on the governments dollar, for life.

[Dizzle]

7 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Well, a baby might be.

A fetus could be, it's on it's way. 
 

 

do you not think, ‘might be’ and ‘could be’ may be a little insufficient when you may be dealing with the termination of a human life? This is why an understanding of what it means to be a human is so important. 
 

7 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Since the fetus is parasitic to the female, it's her choice.

 

This is an interesting argument… and not unimportant. I think there are two aspects I would touch on in response. 1.) if a human is ‘parasitic’ in this sense does that justify ending its life? 
2.) could we not then argue that people in coma’s or dependent on long term care are at the mercy of those who care for them? Certainly, this line of thinking could be applied to severely mentally handicapped individuals as well. They are ‘parasitic’ in a very natal sense. They are utterly dependent on those around them… usually one or two people. (The same could be said of most children). 
 

this raises a further question… does human life have intrinsic value or does it have value based on function?

 

7 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Figuring out when it's too late is fine, when the fetus could be put in a machine for it continued path to becoming a baby. The raised on the governments dollar, for life.

I think I understand what you’re saying here, but if I’m wrong correct me… you are arguing that it would be okay to find a point where the baby becomes somewhat self sufficient (could survive outside the womb) and then draw the line there? 
 

If I’ve understood that correctly, my response would be… absolutely, let’s at least do that. We are still left with the question of what defines a human, and if the unborn baby is a human (even at early stages of pregnancy) is it okay to end their life? 
 

 

[bishopshodan]

If I had a being that was attached to me, one that I did not want attached to me, one that drained my energy / nutreints, affected my health, changed my body permanently, one that prevented me from working, one that if I chose to smoke or drink that I would be shamed...

 

I would want the choice to remove it. I would remove it....and no law would stop me.

 

Since almost all vesectomies can be reversed...

What are those who dont respect a womens right over her body think about mandatory vesectomies for all males until they desire to breed?

( I dont expect many answers to that question.)

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, Dizzle said:

 

do you not think, ‘might be’ and ‘could be’ may be a little insufficient when you may be dealing with the termination of a human life? This is why an understanding of what it means to be a human is so important. 
 

 

This is an interesting argument… and not unimportant. I think there are two aspects I would touch on in response. 1.) if a human is ‘parasitic’ in this sense does that justify ending its life? 
2.) could we not then argue that people in coma’s or dependent on long term care are at the mercy of those who care for them? Certainly, this line of thinking could be applied to severely mentally handicapped individuals as well. They are ‘parasitic’ in a very natal sense. They are utterly dependent on those around them… usually one or two people. (The same could be said of most children). 
 

this raises a further question… does human life have intrinsic value or does it have value based on function?

 

I think I understand what you’re saying here, but if I’m wrong correct me… you are arguing that it would be okay to find a point where the baby becomes somewhat self sufficient (could survive outside the womb) and then draw the line there? 
 

If I’ve understood that correctly, my response would be… absolutely, let’s at least do that. We are still left with the question of what defines a human, and if the unborn baby is a human (even at early stages of pregnancy) is it okay to end their life? 
 

 

Thank you for discussing this. You make some very strong points.

 

I come froma stance that, we humans are no better than any other animal. It's the reason I dont eat them. 

Life has soo much suffering. Sentient beings are destroyed and consumed by humans... it is celebrated.

 

But when it comes to, undeveloped, unwanted, 'future human animals', ones that I dont believe are sentient yet, the general 'we' see it different cause they are human.. i dont. We are all animals. 

Though I understand it can be sad for some....It has to be the womans choice. It's her life. That being is effecting her life, massively 

[Bob Long]

34 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

How does it not matter if what you are ending is a human life or not? Would you apply that logic anywhere else? 
 

If the baby is a human, then the physical/emotional/financial risk of the mother - while utterly important - is not a justification for ending its life. If the unborn baby is not a human… no big deal. Try as you may to dissuade, that question has to be answered. 

 

It's about who gets to make the choice. If you are not the mother, why should you have any say in it?

[King Heffy]

I wonder how those who think a fetus is a person would react if pregnant women started getting charged admission for it at ticketed events.

Edited May 11 by King Heffy

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I wonder how those who think a fetus is a person would react if pregnant women started getting charged admission for it at ticketed events.

 

Paying for them is someone else's problem.

 

 

[Spring Salmon]

12 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So you can officially say that anti abortionist actions are officially on the Conservative platform

From the conservative website from Pierre himself if you don't believe that The liberals see Alex Jones and diagolon haven't changed the polls and now they're giving their last shot on abortions?   What's next after this doesn't work?   "Assault rifles"?

[Satchmo]

37 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

We are still left with the question of what defines a human, and if the unborn baby is a human  

Can you answer those questions or can you just tell us how you feel about it?

 

I am not trying to diss how you feel about it, just pointing out that's all it comes down to. 

 

EDIT - not sure how bishopshodan was quoted.  This was meant for @Dizzle

 

Edited May 11 by Satchmo

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Can answer those questions or can you just tell us how you feel about it?

 

I am not trying to diss how you feel about it, just pointing out that's all it comes down to. 

It's human once it's viable outside the host.

[Spring Salmon]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

my question to you is, what gives you the right to make this decision for someone else? 

 

Maybe mastermind gave you a confused face because you thought people should be forced to take a covid shot and now can't understand how people can make choices for somebody else

[Satchmo]

8 minutes ago, Spring Salmon said:

Maybe mastermind gave you a confused face because you thought people should be forced to take a covid shot and now can't understand how people can make choices for somebody else

In a democracy the majority wins.

 

The majority felt that during a time of a dangerous global pandemic people should be vaccinated (despite the opposition of the minority).

 

Abortion is legal in Canada (despite the opposition of the minority).

 

The only link between these two things is a vocal minority.  I'm not saying either group does not have a right to their opinions; just saying they've been outvoted.

[4petesake]

18 minutes ago, Spring Salmon said:

Maybe mastermind gave you a confused face because you thought people should be forced to take a covid shot and now can't understand how people can make choices for somebody else

 

Who here thought people should be forced to take a covid shot? Their body, their choice, period. Exactly the same as it is for a woman’s body and abortion. 
 

Choices are different than consequences.

[King Heffy]

3 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

In a democracy the majority wins.

 

The majority felt that during a time of a dangerous global pandemic people should be vaccinated (despite the opposition of the minority).

 

Abortion is legal in Canada (despite the opposition of the minority).

 

The only link between these two things is a vocal minority.  I'm not saying either group does not have a right to their opinions; just saying they've been outvoted.

And the idiots still weren't forced to do anything; they just threw a tantrum when they were provided with options and didn't like any of them.  Those opposed to abortion have a very simple solution: don't have one.

[Spring Salmon]

4 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

In a democracy the majority wins.

 

The majority felt that during a time of a dangerous global pandemic people should be vaccinated (despite the opposition of the minority).

 

Abortion is legal in Canada (despite the opposition of the minority).

 

The only link between these two things is a vocal minority.  I'm not saying either group does not have a right to their opinions; just saying they've been outvoted.

That's incorrect. At no time does a politician or anybody else ever have a right to tell you what to do or put in your body

[4petesake]

2 minutes ago, Spring Salmon said:

That's incorrect. At no time does a politician or anybody else ever have a right to tell you what to do or put in your body

 

…or to remove.

[King Heffy]

5 minutes ago, Spring Salmon said:

That's incorrect. At no time does a politician or anybody else ever have a right to tell you what to do or put in your body

So you don't think parents should be allowed to tell kids to eat their veggies?

[Spring Salmon]

7 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

Who here thought people should be forced to take a covid shot? Their body, their choice, period. Exactly the same as it is for a woman’s body and abortion. 
 

Choices are different than consequences.

Plenty of people here supported forcing people to take the shots or lose their jobs. That's force.

 

5 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

…or to remove.

I agree with you there

[Spring Salmon]

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

So you don't think parents should be allowed to tell kids to eat their veggies?

But I thought you don't believe in parental rights?

[King Heffy]

Just now, Spring Salmon said:

But I thought you don't believe in parental rights?

I don't believe in the rights to abuse children if that's what you mean.