Elias Pettersson Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 4 hours ago, Bob Long said: She was told flat out she was qualified, but the owner was worried about losing customers on Vancouvers north shore. I find this hard to believe. The North Shore isn’t known for having people living there who are homophobic. If this was in Chilliwack I could believe it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 14 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: I find this hard to believe. The North Shore isn’t known for having people living there who are homophobic. If this was in Chilliwack I could believe it. I'll remember this next time you want us to take your dinner party discussions at face value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 19 minutes ago, King Heffy said: I'll remember this next time you want us to take your dinner party discussions at face value. Do you have any evidence that on the North Shore people would refuse to go to a mechanic shop because a gay person is working there? Because that’s exactly what I was told in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 10 hours ago, Master Mind said: Glad she eventually got something, even if it took longer than it should have. How would DEI help this situation without hurting someone else? It depends on how it's applied. If it's educational, maybe in time people stop thinking being gay is bad for business. If you're talking about quotas that can get messy for sure. For her case, the owner would have to be held to account to follow a fair hiring process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: I find this hard to believe. The North Shore isn’t known for having people living there who are homophobic. If this was in Chilliwack I could believe it. Then don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sapper Posted July 8 Popular Post Share Posted July 8 (edited) https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/long-term-rv-future-1.7256144 The grey tidal.wave has just begun. We are now seeing the first of the canadian workers who worked their entire lives under austerity and little if any retirement pensions / RRSPs from work Rent would have to be below $800 a month and even then it will have many still needing food banks. This isn't a carbon tax or housing cost fixable issue. We will never see in BC safe housing below $1000 a month ever again. This is what makes PP such a dangerous leader. His and Harper's plan to fix this was just to not let these working poor seniors retire .... Up the age of OAS to keep them working Not a fan of truduea but atleast he's begun doing things such as strengthening the CPP, seniors dental and pharmacare. It's not enough and it's going to get far far worse before it begins to turn. Wages under corporate austerity have fallen so far behind that it's impossible for most people to thrive We bitch about carbon tax but shortly the OAS will be our top tax burden .... And all that is thanks to companies off loading that cost to tax payers so they could yet again break each year their profit records The trickle down theory which PP and conservatives follow has been the real thing that has broken Canada and our way of life. The theory goes that If the boss doesn't have to pay alot of taxes , can pass their taxes onto the consumer, get out of paying pensions and benefits .... Well then they would sprinkle gold from.above to their workers and we would all be so rich that workers could look after all those things themselves Instead we set 2 new records each year ..... Highest consumer debt and highest corporate profits. Next year we will do it again PP has his cult so worked up over carbon tax that he gets away without actually having to be honest about why we have these RV living squats exploding Not one thing PP has said he's going to do will have any impact beyond a few more groceries for these folks and in fact his policies will be fast tracking their growth But eh .... Axe the tax and save the children .... Lol Edited July 8 by Sapper 1 1 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 9 minutes ago, Sapper said: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/long-term-rv-future-1.7256144 The grey tidal.wave has just begun. We are now seeing the first of the canadian workers who worked their entire lives under austerity and little if any retirement pensions / RRSPs from work Rent would have to be below $800 a month and even then it will have many still needing food banks. This isn't a carbon tax or housing cost fixable issue. We will never see in BC safe housing below $1000 a month ever again. This is what makes PP such a dangerous leader. His and Harper's plan to fix this was just to not let these working poor seniors retire .... Up the age of OAS to keep them working Not a fan of truduea but atleast he's begun doing things such as strengthening the CPP, seniors dental and pharmacare. It's not enough and it's going to get far far worse before it begins to turn. Wages under corporate austerity have fallen so far behind that it's impossible for most people to thrive We bitch about carbon tax but shortly the OAS will be our top tax burden .... And all that is thanks to companies off loading that cost to tax payers so they could yet again break each year their profit records The trickle down theory which PP and conservatives follow has been the real thing that has broken Canada and our way of life. The theory goes that If the boss doesn't have to pay alot of taxes , can pass their taxes onto the consumer, get out of paying pensions and benefits .... Well then they would sprinkle gold from.above to their workers and we would all be so rich that workers could look after all those things themselves Instead we set 2 new records each year ..... Highest consumer debt and highest corporate profits. Next year we will do it again PP has his cult so worked up over carbon tax that he gets away without actually having to be honest about why we have these RV living squats exploding Not one thing PP has said he's going to do will have any impact beyond a few more groceries for these folks and in fact his policies will be fast tracking their growth But eh .... Axe the tax and she the children .... Lol PP doesn't actually want to be cornered on a real plan for these folks, or anyone for that matter. As long as he can keep the hoopleheads upset over anything Trudeau, he doesn't have to have a plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: I find this hard to believe. The North Shore isn’t known for having people living there who are homophobic. If this was in Chilliwack I could believe it. Have you ever been to Chilliwack? Cash is king and stores would sell to Satan himself. Never heard of a single case of anyone being turned away from a purchase Destroying rainbow cross walks , condemning sogi, flying the F truduea and being ground zero for the homeless purge from 2010 Vancouver .... That's more the jam Get away from the old guard in the city and it's actually a very welcoming community. It's odd as federally they are die hard conservatives but provincially are NDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 10 minutes ago, Sapper said: Have you ever been to Chilliwack? Cash is king and stores would sell to Satan himself. Never heard of a single case of anyone being turned away from a purchase Destroying rainbow cross walks , condemning sogi, flying the F truduea and being ground zero for the homeless purge from 2010 Vancouver .... That's more the jam Get away from the old guard in the city and it's actually a very welcoming community. It's odd as federally they are die hard conservatives but provincially are NDP. My best friend lives in Chilliwack. I'm out there once a month or so. I go to see her kids too who all live there. They moved out there 10 years ago. It's getting better out there now, more new developments. My friend lives in a newer area by the golf course. Downtown Chilliwack still needs a major cleanup though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 16 hours ago, Master Mind said: There is a lot of rage bait, and some take it too far, but many cases their criticism is justified. Most won't complain about a black person being the lead actor in a movie, but if a historically white person is race swapped in a movie, this is certainly to fulfill a quota or ideology, and people will call it out. If you're in favour of meritocracy, I'm surprised you would speak negatively about anti-DEI sentiments when DEI naturally goes against meritocracy. I believe in DEI because I don't believe everyone has an equal chance today. And yes, there are circumstances where there is an overreaction and qualified candidates may be turned down for a diversity hire, but this is the exception more than the rule. I think the overwhelming majority of cases we are still seeing the ways of the old boys club being the norm (look no further than the NHL), and I'll speak for tech as that is where I am, but women's wages for instance are still behind men's for similar work. I think the question we should be asking is, how can we make this better, not be against it. I think DEI if done correctly, truly enhances a meritocracy, especially if we can address the generational imbalances. Edited July 8 by DSVII 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 10 hours ago, King Heffy said: I'll remember this next time you want us to take your dinner party discussions at face value. I know it's a small meme at this point but as hockey fans I'd imagine we'd all have a great time reminiscing about the post Benning era over a bottle of Dom Perignon or Whiskey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 21 minutes ago, DSVII said: I believe in DEI because I don't believe everyone has an equal chance today. And yes, there are circumstances where there is an overreaction and qualified candidates may be turned down for a diversity hire, but this is the exception more than the rule. I think the overwhelming majority of cases we are still seeing the ways of the old boys club being the norm (look no further than the NHL), and I'll speak for tech as that is where I am, but women's wages for instance are still behind men's for similar work. I think the question we should be asking is, how can we make this better, not be against it. I think DEI if done correctly, truly enhances a meritocracy, especially if we can address the generational imbalances. My main point comes back your negative position towards someone who is against DEI. If there are known flaws to it as you mention, it seems to me that it would be reasonable to prefer another solution. If you or a loved one are in an emergency and needed paramedics/police/firefighters, I imagine you're going to hope to receive help from the most qualified people, instead of lesser qualified diversity-based hires. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Master Mind said: My main point comes back your negative position towards someone who is against DEI. If there are known flaws to it as you mention, it seems to me that it would be reasonable to prefer another solution. If you or a loved one are in an emergency and needed paramedics/police/firefighters, I imagine you're going to hope to receive help from the most qualified people, instead of lesser qualified diversity-based hires. I guess you and I have different opinions on what DEI actually is. For the paramedics/police/firefighters.....any job really, the skills come first, then you weigh the other factors. I also think it is easy then for others to make an inference that DEI = less qualified candidates, again, not the way I envision DEI. It's also a marketing issue, I don't think that is what DEI is trying to achieve. Less qualified and undeserving candidates, but it is just how it is being framed in a negative light and plays into the reactionary narrative. You fix what is broken, but you don't burn the entire thing down. My preferred method of hiring is actually based on what the Sydney orchestra does, and have candidates perform behind a black curtain so they can judge purely on the music. If there was a way to operationalize that to other professions that is most ideal. Edited July 8 by DSVII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, DSVII said: I guess you and I have different opinions on what DEI actually is. For the paramedics/police/firefighters.....any job really, the skills come first, then you weigh the other factors. I also think it is easy then for others to make an inference that DEI = less qualified candidates, again, not the way I envision DEI. My preferred method of hiring is actually based on what the Sydney orchestra does, and have candidates perform behind a black curtain so they can judge purely on the music. The DEI you likely see spoken negatively about is the practice of forced diversity, such as requiring a police department to hire x% female officers. It simply sounds like you are wanting true meritocracy, hiring the best candidate regardless of race, sex, etc, treating people equally including wages, which I agree with. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, Master Mind said: The DEI you likely see spoken negatively about is the practice of forced diversity, such as requiring a police department to hire x% female officers. It simply sounds like you are wanting true meritocracy, hiring the best candidate regardless of race, sex, etc, treating people equally including wages, which I agree with. I was raised to respect the police but their misogynist/racist/homophobic history cannot be denied. They needed a bit of a push in the right direction. A force that serves all people should represent all people. https://www.federalretirees.ca/en/news-views/news-listing/march/scathing-report-calls-out-rcmps-toxic-culture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, Satchmo said: I was raised to respect the police but their misogynist/racist/homophobic history cannot be denied. They needed a bit of a push in the right direction. A force that serves all people should represent all people. https://www.federalretirees.ca/en/news-views/news-listing/march/scathing-report-calls-out-rcmps-toxic-culture The knowledge minorities in the police force have of their respective communities is valuable. It's also a hell of a lot easier for undercover work with ethnic gangs if you have officers who fit the profile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, DSVII said: I believe in DEI because I don't believe everyone has an equal chance today. And yes, there are circumstances where there is an overreaction and qualified candidates may be turned down for a diversity hire, but this is the exception more than the rule. I think the overwhelming majority of cases we are still seeing the ways of the old boys club being the norm (look no further than the NHL), and I'll speak for tech as that is where I am, but women's wages for instance are still behind men's for similar work. I think the question we should be asking is, how can we make this better, not be against it. I think DEI if done correctly, truly enhances a meritocracy, especially if we can address the generational imbalances. This discussion takes me back to the early days of JT's run as PM. He put together a cabinet split exactly 50/50 between men and women.....when asked why, he said, "Because it's 2015". Of course, the right lost their mind about the "political correctness" of it all. (not sure that "Wokeism" as a pejorative was in vogue at the time) I remember "debating" with a certain fellow CDC member, who was outraged by the decision. (Can't recall his handle, but his avatar had a photo of Randy from TPB) He was certain that the inclusion of so many women in the Cabinet meant that "better qualified" men were being passed over..... My position then, as it is now, is that the person with the best qualifications should generally be hired, however, for many positions, there is a chance (and some might say a likelihood) that several applicants will be equally qualified. It is in such cases, IMO, that DEI could (and maybe should) be employed. I've always held the opinion that a government should be representative of it's constituents, but that isn't always easy to accomplish, when the bulk of politicians are wealthy white men. The final initial in DEI stands for "Inclusion". Somehow, certain folks on the right have interpreted it rather as "Exclusion", which makes me wonder if they understand it at all..... Edited July 8 by RupertKBD 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 12 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: I find this hard to believe. The North Shore isn’t known for having people living there who are homophobic. If this was in Chilliwack I could believe it. Checks out...this is still on my play list haha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, Master Mind said: My main point comes back your negative position towards someone who is against DEI. If there are known flaws to it as you mention, it seems to me that it would be reasonable to prefer another solution. What would satisfy everyone? 1 hour ago, Master Mind said: If you or a loved one are in an emergency and needed paramedics/police/firefighters, I imagine you're going to hope to receive help from the most qualified people, instead of lesser qualified diversity-based hires. I guess that's the thing, what makes you think that they would be less qualified? Most jobs are not like front line responders either. It's just comes back to fair hiring of average people, imo. We can get whipped up by media, etc. or theoretical discussions too easily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 30 minutes ago, Bob Long said: What would satisfy everyone? I guess that's the thing, what makes you think that they would be less qualified? Most jobs are not like front line responders either. It's just comes back to fair hiring of average people, imo. We can get whipped up by media, etc. or theoretical discussions too easily. Technically nothing would satisfy everyone, even in a perfect world people would find things to complain about. If this focus is on hiring candidates that fill quotas, like having x% women, x% hispanic, x% black, etc. that inherently conflicts with hiring the most qualified. Instead of your daughter's friend being denied due to being a gay woman, it just means now she can be denied due to them already having a gay woman on the team and they instead need to hire a first nations mechanic to meet their diversity quota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Technically nothing would satisfy everyone, even in a perfect world people would find things to complain about. If this focus is on hiring candidates that fill quotas, like having x% women, x% hispanic, x% black, etc. that inherently conflicts with hiring the most qualified. I think the concept of 'most qualified' gets used a lot, but it really doesn't have a lot of meaning for most jobs after basic competence is met. If a person can do the work, thats enough. People are just too different from each other to go much farther than that, imo. You can replace a muffler, or you can't. You can sell cosmetics, or you can't. You can work at ICBC, or you can't. Etc, etc. For most jobs, it's kind of moot once you have the basic skills. Sure there's a few gigs like a fireman that can carry someone, or logger, etc. but those are the exceptions. 2 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Instead of your daughter's friend being denied due to being a gay woman, it just means now she can be denied due to them already having a gay woman on the team and they instead need to hire a first nations mechanic to meet their diversity quota. thats certainly possible. I guess I'd ask you for groups like First Nations folks that really have undergone such awful discrimination, and still do, whats the better idea? We know that there will be bosses out there that just won't hire someone from a marginalized group. How do we deal with that fairly? I've run into this with consulting. A while back, a certain amount of federal work was set aside for some groups. Sure it made the remaining work a little more competitive for me to try to get, but I'm OK with it, if it helps to build up representation in the workforce. I see DEI as a temporary bridge to achieving a workforce that looks like our population. I understand your concerns about it for sure, but I haven't seen a better idea yet. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 51 minutes ago, Bob Long said: What would satisfy everyone? Why should we be attempting to satisfy racists who aren't even trying to hide their bigotry at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4petesake Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 26 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Sure there's a few gigs like a fireman that can carry someone, or logger, etc. but those are the exceptions. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 So this is pretty interesting - its US workplace views on DEI: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/05/17/diversity-equity-and-inclusion-in-the-workplace/ I guess its not surprising, right leaning white men like it the least but its nowhere near a majority of them. This gets into a lot of detail by particular groups, worth a look for this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Just now, 4petesake said: she's like my personal trainer, she could kick my ass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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