King Heffy Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 1 minute ago, Ricky Ravioli said: This is great and all but at the end of the day it's a perfect example as to why Canada needs far more competition in the grocery market More oversight and regulation is the only way that career criminals like the Weston family can be prevented from doing more damage to Canadians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Target came and tried and fled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 6 minutes ago, Bob Long said: how would we achieve that, tho? opening up even more to cheap US crap? Forcing the larger chains to break up could work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 6 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: This is great and all but at the end of the day it's a perfect example as to why Canada needs far more competition in the grocery market Here's the problem and I need you to try to understand it. There are really only 4/5 grocers in all of Canada. They essentially own all the chains/stores. They also control essentially all of the distribution. For more competition to come they'd have to have such an insane amount of money to create the infrastructure for distribution and storage but also manage to steal contracts from larger competitors in the big 4/5 while also opening numerous locations at once. Target tried that. Didn't go well. This means that the only logical solution is to actively and actually break up the big 4/5 in canada to allow for and ensure that we see mroe competition. This is the same for air travel, cable and telecoms/internet in canada. This has ben a serious issue for over 30 years and no government has in fact even come close to doing this barring Chretien with the Air Canada bailout (which still did essentially nothing for competition) So, with that in mind. Are you ok with direct and intense government intervention in to the monopolized industries and sectors that exist in our country? Are you in fact ok with them interfering with big business in a fashion or manner that is redolent or indicative of socialist policy or at the least socialist adjacent policy? There's no good answers or solutions here. the US has already seen it and is now in a conundrum in which it will need to engage in serious anti-trust actions against the big 4 of Google/Alphabet, Apple, Facebook/Meta and Amazon. This is to ensure that these insanely large companies do not continue down the same roads we see in which they eat the competition via buyouts or takeovers the second they appear. Which destroys the proverbial free market. So are you ok with that level of government intervention? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 8 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: This is great and all but at the end of the day it's a perfect example as to why Canada needs far more competition in the grocery market Absolutely. So to come full circle, this is part of what I was trying to get bouds to acknowledge when he wrote..Easier to blame the grocery stores for gouging. The fact that they are public companies and issue audited statements escapes most people. That to me reads that he is giving them a bit of a pass or at least just throwing shade at people that 'blame the grocery stores'. The grocery giants need looking at, gov says yup. Maybe this 'escapes' Bouds. And before you repeat yourself. I hear you. The gov should do more, probably, I dont know enough about what is currently happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Ravioli Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Here's the problem and I need you to try to understand it. There are really only 4/5 grocers in all of Canada. They essentially own all the chains/stores. They also control essentially all of the distribution. For more competition to come they'd have to have such an insane amount of money to create the infrastructure for distribution and storage but also manage to steal contracts from larger competitors in the big 4/5 while also opening numerous locations at once. Target tried that. Didn't go well. This means that the only logical solution is to actively and actually break up the big 4/5 in canada to allow for and ensure that we see mroe competition. This is the same for air travel, cable and telecoms/internet in canada. This has ben a serious issue for over 30 years and no government has in fact even come close to doing this barring Chretien with the Air Canada bailout (which still did essentially nothing for competition) So, with that in mind. Are you ok with direct and intense government intervention in to the monopolized industries and sectors that exist in our country? Are you in fact ok with them interfering with big business in a fashion or manner that is redolent or indicative of socialist policy or at the least socialist adjacent policy? There's no good answers or solutions here. the US has already seen it and is now in a conundrum in which it will need to engage in serious anti-trust actions against the big 4 of Google/Alphabet, Apple, Facebook/Meta and Amazon. This is to ensure that these insanely large companies do not continue down the same roads we see in which they eat the competition via buyouts or takeovers the second they appear. Which destroys the proverbial free market. So are you ok with that level of government intervention? I know. Which is exactly why I was saying there needs to be more competition. I would be all for forcing those companies to sell off. It's a huge problem in all those sectors. If those companies were forced to sell off, I feel like more upstarts would have a chance to give some actual competition I don't think making laws against companies having a monopoly in essential industries like grocery is "socialist" behavior honestly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 9 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: This is great and all but at the end of the day it's a perfect example as to why Canada needs far more competition in the grocery market Well we all know how long Target lasted in Canada. They have grown their grocery side quite a bit in the USA. Isn't it convenient that Canadian grocers turned out to be such bastards. Why are they gougers now and not prior to Covid? If the margins in the industry are so healthy then why isn't my corner store running deep discounts to gain market share? 12/31/2023 Canadian dollar at 1.324; 08-16-2024 Canadian dollar at 1.369; Loss of buying power in the USA = 3.4%. How much foodstuff does Canada import from the USA? What supply contracts do they sign to access supply? How much have their transport and labor costs gone up in the last year? What I see in the grocery store is people passing on the more expensive brands and buying more no-name. As a retailer I would be very concerned. As a manufacturer of branded goods I would be very concerned. Are store chains gouging? My guess is not as much as most think. Politicizing what people see in the store resonates because money is not going as far. Discovering the real reasons likely has a political cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 1 hour ago, King Heffy said: Forcing the larger chains to break up could work. maybe? not sure how that changes what these guys charge tho: https://bolddata.nl/en/companies/canada/food-distribution-companies/ I guess we could force Loblaws to split up its companies, but then are we making those companies have to make smaller buys, raising prices anyway? not sure its just as simple as 'break them up'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 56 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Absolutely. So to come full circle, this is part of what I was trying to get bouds to acknowledge when he wrote..Easier to blame the grocery stores for gouging. The fact that they are public companies and issue audited statements escapes most people. That to me reads that he is giving them a bit of a pass or at least just throwing shade at people that 'blame the grocery stores'. The grocery giants need looking at, gov says yup. Maybe this 'escapes' Bouds. And before you repeat yourself. I hear you. The gov should do more, probably, I dont know enough about what is currently happening. you have a lot of experience in the alcohol market - did private booze sales increase or decrease overall costs? I kind of see it as a close-ish analogy. How much government oversight do we really need, I guess is my thought bubble. I'm not really arguing for or against it at the moment, just trying to understand the realities on the ground. We really don't have that many food distribution companies, and I can imagine it's the same with booze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4petesake Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 2 hours ago, Ricky Ravioli said: What has the government done except bring them before the house for political theatre? Something has been done. All of “the big 5” in Canada have now signed on to the Grocery Sector Code of Conduct for the Canadian grocery industry. Walmart and Costco finally agreed to join in July after being given a two week deadline after which the government would have been asked to introduce the code through legislation. “This is a positive step towards bringing more fairness, transparency, and predictability to Canada’s grocery supply chain and for consumers.” The code seeks to standardize interactions between grocery retailers and suppliers. The Liberal government has touted the policy as a primary way to eliminate abuses along the supply chain and stabilize food prices. Now your guess is as good as mine as to exactly what this c of c is, it doesn’t seem to have been made public yet so we’ll see if it has any teeth to it. Just saying that it is something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Ravioli Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 10 minutes ago, 4petesake said: Something has been done. All of “the big 5” in Canada have now signed on to the Grocery Sector Code of Conduct for the Canadian grocery industry. Walmart and Costco finally agreed to join in July after being given a two week deadline after which the government would have been asked to introduce the code through legislation. “This is a positive step towards bringing more fairness, transparency, and predictability to Canada’s grocery supply chain and for consumers.” The code seeks to standardize interactions between grocery retailers and suppliers. The Liberal government has touted the policy as a primary way to eliminate abuses along the supply chain and stabilize food prices. Now your guess is as good as mine as to exactly what this c of c is, it doesn’t seem to have been made public yet so we’ll see if it has any teeth to it. Just saying that it is something. The fact it was completely voluntary has me very skeptical on it having any substantial effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Pre-pandemic there was price fixing. Loblaws bread price fixing scandal https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/loblaw-to-settle-class-action-over-bread-price-fixing-for-500-million-1.6976996 Don't kid yourself into thinking a significant portion of the inflation increase wasn't corporations jacking up prices to make bank. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 1 minute ago, Ricky Ravioli said: The fact it was completely voluntary has me very skeptical on it having any substantial effect If you are looking for actual solutions, the last place to look is PP and the CONs. That isn't opinion. That is fact based of decades of track record. Tax cuts, deregulation and corporate greed is the modus operandi of CONservatives here and south of the border. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Ravioli Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 3 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said: If you are looking for actual solutions, the last place to look is PP and the CONs. That isn't opinion. That is fact based of decades of track record. Tax cuts, deregulation and corporate greed is the modus operandi of CONservatives here and south of the border. When did I ever mention him or the cons. It's honestly incredible how you can't even have any discussions in this thread without him or cons inevitably being brought up in some grade school fashion of "oh yeah my dad may smell, but so does yours!" The Liberals are still in power for at least another year. Let's stay focused here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 11 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: When did I ever mention him or the cons. It's honestly incredible how you can't even have any discussions in this thread without him or cons inevitably being brought up in some grade school fashion of "oh yeah my dad may smell, but so does yours!" The Liberals are still in power for at least another year. Let's stay focused here. We trying to find a solution or just moan about the problem? Stating that a political party is guaranteed to make the problem worse is pretty relevant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Ravioli Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 2 minutes ago, King Heffy said: We trying to find a solution or just moan about the problem? Stating that a political party is guaranteed to make the problem worse is pretty relevant. What about that comment screams "finding a solution" to you? It's just more useless mud singling. Let's focus on legitimate solutions and how we can reach them instead of moaning about political parties you don't like It's also an opinion. One that adds absolutely nothing to the current discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 16 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: When did I ever mention him or the cons. It's honestly incredible how you can't even have any discussions in this thread without him or cons inevitably being brought up in some grade school fashion of "oh yeah my dad may smell, but so does yours!" The Liberals are still in power for at least another year. Let's stay focused here. We get constant posts here about how the CONs are kicking ass in polling. Set to destroy the Libs. And in a year if polling is to be believed, PP and the CONs will have a majority government because people think they will change things. They won't. They are the last place to look for solutions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 25 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: The fact it was completely voluntary has me very skeptical on it having any substantial effect Nobody ever does anything voluntarily do they? (Especially in the face of impending negative actions if they fail to take positive actions.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 3 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: Let's focus on legitimate solutions and how we can reach them instead of moaning about political parties you don't like Not a bad idea. When will you start? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the destroyer of worlds Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 2 minutes ago, Ricky Ravioli said: What about that comment screams "finding a solution" to you? It's just more useless mud singling. Let's focus on legitimate solutions and how we can reach them instead of moaning about political parties you don't like It's also an opinion. One that adds absolutely nothing to the current discussion. Where in the decades long list of political decisions made by the CONs do they indicate that they are for MORE REGULATION? For forcing corporations selling of assets? If polling is accurate, then they will be the next government. Where in their recent track record is there any indication that they have solutions? Yes, the Libs aren't much better at this, but the last place to look for solutions is with the CONs. Their track record says so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Ravioli Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 1 minute ago, Satchmo said: Not a bad idea. When will you start? 2 hours ago, Ricky Ravioli said: I know. Which is exactly why I was saying there needs to be more competition. I would be all for forcing those companies to sell off. It's a huge problem in all those sectors. If those companies were forced to sell off, I feel like more upstarts would have a chance to give some actual competition I don't think making laws against companies having a monopoly in essential industries like grocery is "socialist" behavior honestly I'm trying? I admit fully I don't have all the answers or expertise but I'm at least open and willing to have discussions. What's your contribution again so far? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Ravioli Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 6 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said: We get constant posts here about how the CONs are kicking ass in polling. Set to destroy the Libs. And in a year if polling is to be believed, PP and the CONs will have a majority government because people think they will change things. They won't. They are the last place to look for solutions here. Ok? Am I the one posting those polls claiming victory already? Do I believe he likely wins? Sure. But I'm not out there parading around like I just won the Stanley cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Just now, Ricky Ravioli said: I'm trying? I admit fully I don't have all the answers or expertise but I'm at least open and willing to have discussions. What's your contribution again so far? My contribution? I post and not too many people (though some people certainly) raise their eyebrows and raise questions. I don't lose my temper too often and get all defensive so there's that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: you have a lot of experience in the alcohol market - did private booze sales increase or decrease overall costs? I kind of see it as a close-ish analogy. How much government oversight do we really need, I guess is my thought bubble. I'm not really arguing for or against it at the moment, just trying to understand the realities on the ground. We really don't have that many food distribution companies, and I can imagine it's the same with booze. There are a lot of venders in booze. The big guys dominate but its easier than food. You need is to get 'listed' with the BCLDB which is a bit of process but if you can, then there are options for distribution. The private/gov model changes depending on the province. But, in fact, there are safe guards against some of the stuff the gorcery stores do. I for example, could not be a 'Molson house' as a liquor store... i have to provide the customer with a reasonable amount of options in that category ( domestic beer in this case). Side rant for a second here... One thing I think of that is a big threat to the small producers and private shops is Jimmy Pattison's wine/beer on the grocery store shelves. I could write pages on this to explain why but instead think about this... Remember when those F'in BC Libs asked us all if we wanted wine/beer on the grocery store shelves? everyone said 'Yes!' just like Europe etc, etc.. However, the Yap report was a survey of 500 people with no industry insight. Crusty met with Jimmy in closed door meetings with some other big grocery types. They strategically started moving the goal posts, once they got the public onside, to what a 'grocery store' was...they put in things like 'must be 10,000 sq ft...' I'll cut to the chase, the large majority ( 90%+ I believe) of the new licenses were bought up by, guess who? Jimmy P. for his big stores. BTW, every one of his Save-Ons/QF have a liquor store within a 100 meters. Remember the people thought it was gonna be 'like Europe'...you could buy a beer maybe at the corner store...they lied to everyone. Where is this increased convenience? Does it really seem any different except now? Jim gets a bit more money. In fact, when it went through it went against NAFTA at the time as they were promising BC only wines/beer. There was immediate trade challenges from other countries. Heres an old article expanding a bit.. https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/03/24/BC-New-Liquor-Landscape/ To add, they went into this after BC banks had loaned over Billion to the private liquor store sector in 15 years prior. Only for the gov to change the landscape... whew, Now to try to answer your question a bit. I talked to a guy a bunch that owned Independent Gocery stores. He would tell tales of the big venders doing all sorts of off-side stuff. They absolutely pressure, collude, gouge and the rest of it. I always wonder why I have so few options for Ketchup...is it that hard to make a tomato based condiment? My conspiracy thoery tells me that buyers are pressured to not carry many options for such a popular style of product My real work experinece knows I was offered alot from competitors to remove certain products out of my liquor stores ( a no, no but they hide it in marketing spends) So, I'm sure it happens more in the massive world of food. Edited August 21 by bishopshodan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Ravioli Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 6 minutes ago, Satchmo said: My contribution? I post and not too many people (though some people certainly) raise their eyebrows and raise questions. I don't lose my temper too often and get all defensive so there's that too. Damn you must feel pretty proud of such an accomplishment? Ok? Again would you like a high five? Firm handshake? Validation? I'm honestly not understanding what your point here is? Are we having a discussion or you just want to keep taking lame shots? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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