Canadian Politics Thread

[RupertKBD]

1 minute ago, Bure_Pavel said:

You can always detain them and release them. I dont think you can just sit back and ignore this kinda stuff though.  

 

TBH, I wouldn't really have an issue with this. I would point out however, that the scapegoating of the federal government is off base. Seems to me that local police both in Ottawa and Vancouver should be the ones getting the criticism.

 

When you (or anyone else) start blaming Justin Trudeau for this, is tells me you aren't as concerned about the protest itself as you are about an opportunity to criticize JT for it.

[Bob Long]

29 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Yes, we only have left and right now, the centre party has been completely wiped out.  Same as BC.  That's the problem we face Bob.  Carney will need to start a brand new centrist party...

 

Carney won't be leading anything unfortunately. Hopefully some good planning tho.

 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

5 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

When you (or anyone else) start blaming Justin Trudeau for this, is tells me you aren't as concerned about the protest itself as you are about an opportunity to criticize JT for it.

 

More like they get off by finding more ways to convey the "fuck Trudeau" message without saying it as such, as well as by somehow being deluded by the thought that they've somehow "pwned" the users here who "defend Trudeau" (even though it's been stated - and demonstrated - multiple times that there aren't as many users here who fall into that category as they somehow think there are... I mean, talk about reading comprehension fail and blind homerism )

Edited October 8 by 6of1_halfdozenofother

[Coconuts]

14 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I was just thinking the same thing... 7 days ago our Liberal party leader who is the Prime Minister of Canada enjoyed the individually cast and counted votes of 207 members of Parliament when the Conservative Leader tried to bring him down with a non confidence vote. The Conservative Leader managed 121 votes for his cause. His cause, for those who are unaware is attaining the seat of power in Canada: the Prime Minister job. 

 

A week earlier he tried it and the Prime Minister garnered 211 votes of confidence. 

 

The news of the Liberal Parties impending demise is at best inaccurate. 

 

And that's a good thing, the last anyone around here should want is something more resembling what we see in the US. Yes, the Liberals and Cons have made up every federal government, but the difference is that Canada actually has a contributing left party in the NDP,  and another contributing party in the Bloque, whereas the US lacks an actual left entirely. What is "left" in the US is probably closer to middle ground in Canada. 

 

Canada's a country that's historically leaned a bit left, the Libs leaning left on some issues and a bit right on others isn't new. Maybe the current Libs have swung a bit further left than some would like, or maybe the NDP's simply enjoyed the most influence they've ever had at the Federal level. Could be both. Could be both and other contributing factors, depends on who you ask. 

 

More than likely the political pendulum will continue to swing, tomorrow's Libs and NDP could look different. The Cons seem to be enjoying momentum right now, I'd personally argue that every once in a while Canada needs a federal conservative government to remind the average Canadian why they're better off not having one. 

 

I've said it before, I wish con voters had a party option that wasn't as right, because the current cons have embraced social conservatism and that isn't representative of all con voters. Some folks are simply more conservative fiscally, well, idealistically anyway. I wish Canada has a progressive conservative party of sorts. 

Edited October 8 by Coconuts

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

And that's a good thing, the last anyone around here should want is something more resembling what we see in the US. Yes, the Liberals and Cons have made up every federal government, but the difference is that Canada actually has a contributing left party in the NDP,  and another contributing party in the Bloque, whereas the US lacks an actual left entirely. What is "left" in the US is probably closer to middle ground in Canada. 

 

Canada's a country that's historically leaned a bit left, the Libs leaning left on some issues and a bit right on others isn't new. Maybe the current Libs have swung a bit further left than some would like, or maybe the NDP's simply enjoyed the most influence they've ever had at the Federal level. Could be both. Could be both and other contributing factors, depends on who you ask. 

 

More than likely the political pendulum will continue to swing, tomorrow's Libs and NDP could look different. The Cons seem to be enjoying momentum right now, I'd personally argue that every once in a while Canada needs a federal conservative government to remind them why they're better off not having one. 

 

I've said it before, I wish con voters had a party option that wasn't as right, because the current cons have embraced social conservatism and that isn't representative of all con voters. Some folks are simply more conservative fiscally, well, idealistically anyway. I wish Canada has a progressive conservative party of sorts. 

 

Unfortunately Preston Manning sold the right on self pity and it's never looked back. 

 

Skippy just brings such abrasive nonsense to political discussion it's hard to know what his real plans are.

 

I'm not sure voters really understand that they are handing him a mandate to do whatever he feels like.

 

 

 

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

More like they get off by finding more ways to convey the "fuck Trudeau" message without saying it as such, as well as by somehow being deluded by the thought that they've somehow "pwned" the users here who "defend Trudeau" (even though it's been stated - and demonstrated - multiple times that there aren't as many users here who fall into that category... I mean, talk about reading comprehension fail and blind homerism )

One way to say fuck Trudeau is shown below.  We are reminded though that it was the few, not the many, who expressed it this way.  Unlike other protesters.  Each and everyone of those are chanting 'Death to Canada' at every opportunity.  

[Optimist Prime]

Just some musings on yesterdays protests around Canada seemingly in favour of Hamas and Hezbollah, but in reality in favour of valuing Arab lives the same as 'European lives'. I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of protesters were doing nothing wrong. I also have no doubt that the 'government' i.e. police, secret police and other agents of the state spent a lot of effort, and money, keeping an eye/ear on the few protestors who are truly the bad guys in the bunch. 

 

I am just reminded of sweeping protests from the 90's and 2000's that I was working. 99% of protesters were intending to be there to peacefully speak their minds to the subject at hand. less than 1% were literally bad guys from the official perspective. Those people were tagged, surveilled, and in some cases plucked out of crowds by the good guys without much notice. I know it is unnerving to see people wrapped in a keffiyeh waiving a Palestinian Flag yelling Death to Canada, i hate it, but what would be the actual harm from it? They can't stab Canada or shoot Canada...it was a stupid chant that did very little to gain sympathy for their cause. I don't see it as a credible threat. The authorities likely don't either, i am retired so i can't speak for them obviously. Now the less than 1% who may in fact be bad guys: i guarantee you they have been tracked as they left, I.D.'s have likely been figured out and contact tracing is well underway to see who they talk to post protest...and for the record, most of these real bad guys have likely been tracked and contact chained before they ever got to the protests. There is just no credible threat from a crowd of losers chanting things in teh streets, no matter how much I hate what they are chanting, my family has spent generations of blood defending their right to chant it. 

 

Final thought: citizenship isn't a club membership. I disagree with the ability to rip it up and throw it away. If we as born Canadians allow the litmus test for keeping citizenship to be any ill-defined set of rules in any given era: we weaken our own citizenship rights in that in any future era those rules could be changed and perhaps affect us. No doubt, foreigners who break laws face consequences including deportation, but assuming every brown skinned person in a keffiyeh chanting along with the crowd is deportable, dudes, that is just completely racist thinking, wither you know it or not. 

 

Many months back there was a rude asshole protesting for Palestine in a mall in Vancouver...everyone was mad in the Hamas thread that he was ignored by the cops. He was shoving some people and making vague threats just like yesterday but with only a handful of protestors around him.  I am aware that several weeks later he was scooped up and dealt with, with zero drama, no chance for anyone in the mall to be hurt and the outcomes protected Canada. I know from experience the intervening weeks in that case were spent by the authorities looking deeply into who he talked with before and after and what his chain of information was and from whom around the globe. 

 

It is frustrating to see other wise smart people demand folks be deported for disagreeing on a topic and using words we don't like. Rest assured any real baddies from yesterday are being dealt with and being used to find more of their ilk through various means. Shitty days all around, globally, but I am kind of happy the Palestinian supporters in my home town have dwindled down to the radical five or six who were out on Oct 7th a year ago with Palestinian flags trying to drum up business. (No we can't deport those five or six, they are white and were born here) 

 

Tough times. Cretien was right...tough times is tory times. it is how they make their hay.

[Optimist Prime]

9 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

And that's a good thing, the last anyone around here should want is something more resembling what we see in the US. Yes, the Liberals and Cons have made up every federal government, but the difference is that Canada actually has a contributing left party in the NDP,  and another contributing party in the Bloque, whereas the US lacks an actual left entirely. What is "left" in the US is probably closer to middle ground in Canada. 

 

Canada's a country that's historically leaned a bit left, the Libs leaning left on some issues and a bit right on others isn't new. Maybe the current Libs have swung a bit further left than some would like, or maybe the NDP's simply enjoyed the most influence they've ever had at the Federal level. Could be both. Could be both and other contributing factors, depends on who you ask. 

 

More than likely the political pendulum will continue to swing, tomorrow's Libs and NDP could look different. The Cons seem to be enjoying momentum right now, I'd personally argue that every once in a while Canada needs a federal conservative government to remind the average Canadian why they're better off not having one. 

 

I've said it before, I wish con voters had a party option that wasn't as right, because the current cons have embraced social conservatism and that isn't representative of all con voters. Some folks are simply more conservative fiscally, well, idealistically anyway. I wish Canada has a progressive conservative party of sorts. 

They had one, the Progressive Conservatives, and Peter Mackay sold it to Steven Harper and Steve-O's boss.

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Unfortunately Preston Manning sold the right on self pity and it's never looked back. 

 

Skippy just brings such abrasive nonsense to political discussion it's hard to know what his real plans are.

 

I'm not sure voters really understand that they are handing him a mandate to do whatever he feels like.

 

 

 

 

I really don't like how he's embraced the US way of doing politics, all he seems to do is look for ways to attack and folks eat it up because he's attacking a stale candidate with a fair bit of baggage. It's a lot of bluster, a lot of grandstanding, he presents as a man who simply wants power and doesn't care much about the ethics and morality of how he gets it; as demonstrated by his courting the fringe right. 

 

To me that doesn't really speak to folks viewing him as a great candidate, it speaks more to folks being tired of Justin. I'm not convinced he'll be good for the average Canadian, Canadians who sit somewhere between under the poverty line and middle class. He'll probably be great for corporate interests and those with wealth though. 

 

I just hope the Libs and NDP can pull their socks up enough to at least ensure he doesn't get a majority.

[Bob Long]

3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

This is Trudeau’s Canada, where terrorists are allowed to enter the country and burn the Canadian flag without fear of arrest. 

 

The Liberal party is going to be completely wiped out next election.  It will cease to exist…
 

 

 

So in PPs version, are these people on a plane to somewhere within hours of a protest? How will it work?

 

[Coconuts]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

They had one, the Progressive Conservatives, and Peter Mackay sold it to Steven Harper and Steve-O's boss.

 

The ol' red tory, a shame. 

[Bure_Pavel]

22 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

TBH, I wouldn't really have an issue with this. I would point out however, that the scapegoating of the federal government is off base. Seems to me that local police both in Ottawa and Vancouver should be the ones getting the criticism.

 

When you (or anyone else) start blaming Justin Trudeau for this, is tells me you aren't as concerned about the protest itself as you are about an opportunity to criticize JT for it.

I think people just want him to stand up against stuff like this as the leader of Canada, the avoidance approach he tends to utilize is not inspiring or effective. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

I really don't like how he's embraced the US way of doing politics, all he seems to do is look for ways to attack and folks eat it up because he's attacking a stale candidate with a fair bit of baggage. It's a lot of bluster, a lot of grandstanding, he presents as a man who simply wants power and doesn't care much about the ethics and morality of how he gets it; as demonstrated by his courting the fringe right. 

 

To me that doesn't really speak to folks viewing him as a great candidate, it speaks more to folks being tired of Justin. I'm not convinced he'll be good for the average Canadian, Canadians who sit somewhere between under the poverty line and middle class. He'll probably be great for corporate interests and those with wealth though. 

 

I just hope the Libs and NDP can pull their socks up enough to at least ensure he doesn't get a majority.

 

For me personally I'll be better off financially tax wise, and I don't qualify for any of the new social programs. And I still don't want the little creep anywhere near real power.

 

He does parrot the US, just as Baird and Harper did but Skippy has embraced truly divisive bs.

 

The left really needs to figure out how not to split the vote. Maybe that's actually possible now with  polling and social media ? Dunno.

 

[Optimist Prime]

42 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

It's been a while since I've seen anyone genuinely supporting Trudeau in this thread, the consensus seems to be exactly what you've said for a while.

I am still around, haven't changed my mind yet. Trudeau, of the people who will be Prime Minister after the next election, is still the best choice for Canada. 

There are two people, Pierre Poilievre and Justin Trudeau, currently, who can be PM after the next federal election. The former is an ambitious power hungry angry little man bent on revenging his party's loss in 2015. Does anyone remember that he was actually in cabinet in the government nobody wanted around anymore? The latter is the sitting Prime Minister, and getting long in the tooth, who may want to consider retirement from politics. Still though, of the two people who will set Canadian policy for the next four years after an election: I fully support Justin Trudeau, between the two and will actively work against Pierre Poilievre in every way I know how. 

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So in PPs version, are these people on a plane to somewhere within hours of a protest? How will it work?

 

At minimum they should be arrested and detained. Check to see if they are Canadian citizens or not. If they are not, start the deportation process. They don’t want to be here anyways.  If they are Canadian citizens, then it’s Crown Counsel’s job to find out if they can be charged with a death threat. 

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

I think people just want him to stand up against stuff like this as the leader of Canada, the avoidance approach he tends to utilize is not inspiring or effective. 

At the very least, Trudeau should denounce and condemn this hate speech against Canada. Did he do this?  No. Did Poilievre do it?  Yes he did. I posted the video. 

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

At the very least, Trudeau should denounce and condemn this hate speech against Canada. Did he do this?  No. Did Poilievre do it?  Yes he did. I posted the video. 

Concrete proof that JT supports this kind of thing.  Or that PP is out to please his block.   Your choice.

 

Oh, and it seems like only yesterday Trudeau did have something to say...

 

[Bob Long]

10 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

At minimum they should be arrested and detained. Check to see if they are Canadian citizens or not. If they are not, start the deportation process. They don’t want to be here anyways.  If they are Canadian citizens, then it’s Crown Counsel’s job to find out if they can be charged with a death threat. 

 

Check out what optimist said. There is the potential for really good intelligence gathering if we are patient and let the dumb dumbs talk. 

 

I understand the initial negative reaction but if we don't play into the instant anger maybe we find out who their friends are too. 

[RupertKBD]

23 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

I think people just want him to stand up against stuff like this as the leader of Canada, the avoidance approach he tends to utilize is not inspiring or effective. 

 

Is that what you think?

 

The why the complaints about the protesters not being arrested, (when that is a job for local police) or deported? Speaking of "deportation", you don't see any anti-immigrant stance inherent in that criticism?

 

What about the snarky references to the Ottawa protest? How does that square with "just wanting him to stand up"?

Edited October 8 by RupertKBD

[Coconuts]

19 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

For me personally I'll be better off financially tax wise, and I don't qualify for any of the new social programs. And I still don't want the little creep anywhere near real power.

 

He does parrot the US, just as Baird and Harper did but Skippy has embraced truly divisive bs.

 

The left really needs to figure out how not to split the vote. Maybe that's actually possible now with  polling and social media ? Dunno.

 

 

Honestly, one of the best things for Canadian politics would be a Trump loss. If the Dems can find a way to finally put the MAGA bit to bed maybe the Republicans would find a way to take a step back from being a circus. A Trump win would probably just spur the Canadian cons on. 

 

Low and mid range earners are going through it, as we both know, and that's generally who I'm going to favour ideologically. I'm not as interested in funneling more wealth to those who already have wealth, I'm interested in those who are more marginalized, those whose day to day realities lean closer towards the poverty line than whatever the upper middle class is nowadays; and this doesn't just extend to demographics that some would deem the "deserving poor". I don't view the current iteration of the Canadian cons as being the party who'd help these demographics the most. So yeah, maybe the best I can hope for is a conservative minority, we'll see. 

 

While businesses, corporations, and the wealthy need to be considered, given they hold a disproportionate amount of power and capital (financial, social, or otherwise), I will not favour them or vote in their best interests. 

 

Vote splitting is a danger, the Cons benefit from not having a party that'll split their vote. I was hoping the People's Party would accomplish this a bit more but it hasn't happened. 

[Coconuts]

24 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am still around, haven't changed my mind yet. Trudeau, of the people who will be Prime Minister after the next election, is still the best choice for Canada. 

There are two people, Pierre Poilievre and Justin Trudeau, currently, who can be PM after the next federal election. The former is an ambitious power hungry angry little man bent on revenging his party's loss in 2015. Does anyone remember that he was actually in cabinet in the government nobody wanted around anymore? The latter is the sitting Prime Minister, and getting long in the tooth, who may want to consider retirement from politics. Still though, of the two people who will set Canadian policy for the next four years after an election: I fully support Justin Trudeau, between the two and will actively work against Pierre Poilievre in every way I know how. 

 

See, I view this more as you being more in favour of Poilievre not being prime minister than you being supportive of Justin being prime minister. To some degree they're the same thing, but I see it as you picking the "lesser evil". I think most folks who lean center or left are in this boat to some degree, it's not so much an endorsement of Trudeau so much as a condemnation of Poilievre. 

 

But I could be off base in your case, absolutely. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Honestly, one of the best things for Canadian politics would be a Trump loss. If the Dems can find a way to finally put the MAGA bit to bed maybe the Republicans would find a way to take a step back from being a circus. A Trump win would probably just spur the Canadian cons on. 

 

Low and mid range earners are going through it, as we both know, and that's generally who I'm going to favour ideologically. I'm not as interested in funneling more wealth to those who already have wealth, I'm interested in those who are more marginalized, those whose day to day realities lean closer towards the poverty line than whatever the upper middle class is nowadays; and this doesn't just extend to demographics that some would deem the "deserving poor". I don't view the current iteration of the Canadian cons as being the party who'd help these demographics the most. So yeah, maybe the best I can hope for is a conservative minority, we'll see. 

 

While businesses, corporations, and the wealthy need to be considered, given they hold a disproportionate amount of power and capital (financial, social, or otherwise), I will not favour them or vote in their best interests. 

 

Vote splitting is a danger, the Cons benefit from not having a party that'll split their vote. I was hoping the People's Party would accomplish this a bit more but it hasn't happened. 

 

I don't see it quite the same way but we still share the idea that our social programs are needed and should be carried by the people and businesses that have done well. I don't view it in an us v. them way. We need everyone.

 

The really caustic division and mean way the CPC describes people outside of their circle is going to hurt people who deserve better. But frankly I think a lot of them get off on it.

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

See, I view this more as you being more in favour of Poilievre not being prime minister than you being supportive of Justin being prime minister. To some degree they're the same thing, but I see it as you picking the "lesser evil". I think most folks who lean center or left are in this boat to some degree, it's not so much an endorsement of Trudeau so much as a condemnation of Poilievre. 

 

But I could be off base in your case, absolutely. 

But that is all Politics really is: Parties put forth their 'champion' and voters have to pick which Champion would be best to rule for a term in office. 

 

I am 100% in support of the Liberals Champion being Prime Minister when the alternatives are Jagmeet Singh, Pierre Poilievre, Liz May, Yves-Francois Blanchet and Maxime Bernier. 

 

For me, there is just no viable alternative right now, but I fully admit it looks like Pierre Poilievre will be winning the next term, I am of the opinion this would be a bad choice for Canada for several reasons, as I go into from time to time in the thread. 

[Bure_Pavel]

19 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Is that what you think?

 

The why the complaints about the protesters not being arrested, (when that is a job for local police) or deported? Speaking of "deportation", you don't see any anti-immigrant stance inherent in that criticism?

 

What about the snarky references to the Ottawa protest? How does that square with "just wanting him to stand up"?

If Trudeau come out and said that these actions would not be tolerated and implored the police to shut the promotion of violence and support towards terrorist organizations. I think the police would take a more hands on approach. Trudeau might not act like it but the Prime Minister of Canada is a position of power and influence. The same thing happened in the Truckers in Ottawa where is hid from confrontation and let things snowball, just to take the easy way out by enacting the war time act unlawfully. 

 

I dont see any anti-immigrant stance inherent in that criticism, if they aren't permanent citizens they dont have the right to come here and chant death to Canada.   

Edited October 8 by Bure_Pavel

[RupertKBD]

2 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

If Trudeau come out and said that these actions would not be tolerated and implored the police to shut the promotion of violence and support towards terrorist organizations. I think the police would take a more hands on approach. Trudeau might not act like it but the Prime Minister of Canada is a position of power and influence. The same thing happened in the Truckers in Ottawa where is hid from confrontation and let things snowball, just to take the easy way out by enacting the war time act unlawfully.  

 

So.....you didn't watch the video that @Satchmo posted?