[signing] Forbort to Canucks

[N4ZZY]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

I just don't see a cerebral player in Zads

How come? 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Just in passing, a really good article about which UFA signings were a bad idea. Lindholm and Zadorov made the list. Apologies if this has already appeared elsewhere in these forums.

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/the-worst-contracts-signed-in-2024-nhl-free-agency-so-far

Edited July 7 by Curmudgeon

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, N4ZZY said:

How come? 

 

 

He makes a lot of suspect plays where he is covering the wrong player, too slow to get to his man, or makes poor decisions in his own end. He also often goes for big hits either taking himself out of the play, or takes very poorly timed and silly penalties. He doesn't give the same feeling as a player like Lindholm on forward, or Tanev on defence, where you feel 100% confident they are making the right play defensively most all of the time.

 

Put it this way. At his size there is a reason Heiskanen and Hedman excel as defenders who can do anything, and Zadorov does not. A lot of it is overall ability to think the game and play it at top speed. I mean, if Zadorov could do those things at his size and skating ability he'd be one of the most sought after players in the league.

[grumpyone]

16 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

Just in passing, a really good article about which UFA signings were a bad idea. Lindholm and Zadorov made the list. Apologoies if this has already appeared elsewhere in thee forums.

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/the-worst-contracts-signed-in-2024-nhl-free-agency-so-far

I found it funny that both of them signed for the same money that we offered them. Must be the lower taxes in Boston that lured them south of the border. 

 

[PureQuickness]

15 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

He makes a lot of suspect plays where he is covering the wrong player, too slow to get to his man, or makes poor decisions in his own end. He also often goes for big hits either taking himself out of the play, or takes very poorly timed and silly penalties. He doesn't give the same feeling as a player like Lindholm on forward, or Tanev on defence, where you feel 100% confident they are making the right play defensively most all of the time.

 

Put it this way. At his size there is a reason Heiskanen and Hedman excel as defenders who can do anything, and Zadorov does not. A lot of it is overall ability to think the game and play it at top speed. I mean, if Zadorov could do those things at his size and skating ability he'd be one of the most sought after players in the league.

 

I feel like the above comment is largely an oversimplified narrative to support an opinion and it's not really based on fact. The interesting part about the bolded is that Zadorov WAS one of the most sought after players in the league, at least in this UFA, which was also why they got 5M offers from at least two teams. You don't get 5M for being a bum. And there's a reason why some defenseman don't make so much.

[Coryberg]

2 hours ago, grumpyone said:

I found it funny that both of them signed for the same money that we offered them. Must be the lower taxes in Boston that lured them south of the border. 

 

Lindholm signed for 7.75 mil, our reported final offer was 7 mil x 7 years. 

 

Zadorov signed at 5 mil for 6 years, apparently we were offering 5 but weren't willing to go past 4 years.

 

So Lindholm got an extra 5.25 million and Zadorov got an extra 10 million on their deals. Good on them for taking the most they can and good on management for not handcuffing the team's future.

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, Coryberg said:

Lindholm signed for 7.75 mil, our reported final offer was 7 mil x 7 years. 

 

Zadorov signed at 5 mil for 6 years, apparently we were offering 5 but weren't willing to go past 4 years.

 

So Lindholm got an extra 5.25 million and Zadorov got an extra 10 million on their deals. Good on them for taking the most they can and good on management for not handcuffing the team's future.

This management has been very disciplined in not handing out long term deals on non core players.

 

It’s very important to stay flexible with the cap. Can’t get tied to anchors on 6 and 7 year deals. Four years is the perfect term.

 

Im actually surprised they offered Lindholm that many years. Debrusk makes more sense considering his age. They’re essentially making him a core player now though.

[N4ZZY]

On 7/5/2024 at 2:46 PM, Curmudgeon said:

Just in passing, a really good article about which UFA signings were a bad idea. Lindholm and Zadorov made the list. Apologoies if this has already appeared elsewhere in thee forums.

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/the-worst-contracts-signed-in-2024-nhl-free-agency-so-far

well, that was fast. It didn't take long for people to think those contracts aren't going to age well. 

 

[N4ZZY]

9 hours ago, DeNiro said:

This management has been very disciplined in not handing out long term deals on non core players.

 

It’s very important to stay flexible with the cap. Can’t get tied to anchors on 6 and 7 year deals. Four years is the perfect term.

 

Im actually surprised they offered Lindholm that many years. Debrusk makes more sense considering his age. They’re essentially making him a core player now though.

Maybe they weren't as disciplined after all. lol. To be fair, and in all seriousness, I think Lindholm was a luxury that management thought he was worth going in on. I couldn't see Allvin and Rutherford going pass 7m, the way Boston did for him at almost 8m. That's insane. 

 

[N4ZZY]

On 7/5/2024 at 3:23 PM, Gawdzukes said:

 

He makes a lot of suspect plays where he is covering the wrong player, too slow to get to his man, or makes poor decisions in his own end. He also often goes for big hits either taking himself out of the play, or takes very poorly timed and silly penalties. He doesn't give the same feeling as a player like Lindholm on forward, or Tanev on defence, where you feel 100% confident they are making the right play defensively most all of the time.

 

Put it this way. At his size there is a reason Heiskanen and Hedman excel as defenders who can do anything, and Zadorov does not. A lot of it is overall ability to think the game and play it at top speed. I mean, if Zadorov could do those things at his size and skating ability he'd be one of the most sought after players in the league.

Yeah, I guess that's true and it makes sense. I mean, it could explain why he's bounced around the league. 5-6 teams in his career, is a lot. Maybe management on those teams just didn't see him as a top four, and Zadorov thinks he himself is one. I don't really feel bad for Boston if Zadorov doesn't work out for them. I mean, I can see both Z and Lindholm contracts not aging well for Boston. Good for both those players for getting their bag, but not great for the team being stuck with those contracts. Again, I don't feel one bit sorry for the Bruins if those contracts age like milk. 
 

[IBatch]

On 7/3/2024 at 12:43 PM, CanucksJay said:

Im most nervous about the lack of foot speed on D. Skating is the biggest weakness for both Forbort and Desharnais. 

We got faster on forward but slower on D. Forbort is a downgrade on Cole and Desharnais is a big downgrade on Z. 

That being said, we didn't have Z until mid season last year. We have cap space and time to find the right guy on D but there no way we will roll into the playoffs as is. We should keep faith in the management. They've been so good so far. 

Who knows, we might get a true 2-3D at the deadline a la Hronek 

Didn't like that we couldn't get Zadarov done.    

 

Reality was the team had to choose what to do.   The offered Lindholm 7 x 7.   So really wanted him.   Zadarov 5 x 5 so they really wanted him too.   Boston wanted them more, and paid more.   And both these guys are going to make a lot more money there take home, 41% versus 53%... Add 12% to their deals, would you still do it?   That's part of it when it comes to UFAs.   Millions of dollars are on the table to the tax man.    Playing ball doesn't always look so hot in Canadian markets.    

 

Zadarov was my first hope.   They did a good job on the other free agents and worked on them in their order.   Which was obviously, Hronek then Lindholm.   The ones they kept, signed at US level or even a little better.   They stuck to it. 

 

As far the guys we did sign.   Canucks won free agency as far as not overpaying, and adding size and grit. (At least that's what media types in other markets are saying about us, with envy even).     They stuck to their best offers.    I'd of loved Zadarov even at six years.   His fair value based on comps?  5.25 x 4.   So he's the big winner.    Lindholm 6.7 x 5.   So he's also the big winner.     Felt we'd regret 7 x 7.     

 

We still have cap left.    And fortunately, a bevy of roster players teams like.

 

As far as starting rosters go, is this one worse then the one we started with last season?   No.   Every single guy we targeted, came in at or below actual value.     6 x 6 was Debrusk, we lowered the cap hit the same way EDM did with Hyman.    Not a bad strategy given his age.   Joshua bang on.    Our top 9 > then last season to start the year. 

 

Out D core.   Desharnais instead of Cole.     Forbot instead of Irwin.   A modest improvement maybe.   QHs can also play with Desharnais.   Feel that's a life preserve for him come playoff time.   Soucy and Hronek a solid pairing.    Forbot is the spot, I see the team upgrading.    

 

All the cap space, with the exception of possibly EP, has been cleaned up.    Plus the OEL thing but so far aces there.    Played third pairing in Florida. 

 

Could it come back and haunt us?   Maybe yes.     

 

Did we overspend?   Not at all.   And our team is going to be a lot harder to play against then last year.    And special teams got a boost, PK especially. 

Edited July 7 by IBatch

[Coryberg]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:43 AM, CanucksJay said:

 

We got faster on forward but slower on D. Forbort is a downgrade on Cole and Desharnais is a big downgrade on Z. 

 

3.5 million cap vs 8.1 million in cap you are talking about a slight downgrade for less than half the money.

Edited July 7 by Coryberg

[steviewonder20]

PK should be better this year. If we can: stay healthy (that’s you, Demko), improve our PP; have Petey and DeBrusk gel; and shut-down/frustrate/pound the shit out of McJesus and Draisaitl, I think we can make the finals next year.

[CanucksJay]

7 hours ago, Coryberg said:

3.5 million cap vs 8.1 million in cap you are talking about a slight downgrade for less than half the money.

Forbort and Desharnais is not a "slight" downgrade on Cole and Zadorvov even if you try to put a Canucks spin on it.

Cole is better than both Forbort and Desharnais and Zadorov is so much better than all 3 of them. 

The fact that Cole is making almost the same amount as both Forbort and Desharnais combined when all 3 were available on the open market is telling what the other GMs think about these players... 

That being said, I am a Canucks fan so I'm obviously rooting for the new guys. I hope Desharnais continues to take big steps and improve this year. I'm hoping he really surprises and is a stable bottom pairing defender who can work well with his partner so that there isn't a big drop off on the 3rd pairing. I hope Forbort can stay healthy and still has gas in the tank to be a solid bottom pairing guy. 

That would be a huge win if they can do that. 

PA then can use his cap space mid season and jump on another good deal (like Zadorov) 

 

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

On 7/6/2024 at 8:22 AM, PureQuickness said:

 

I feel like the above comment is largely an oversimplified narrative to support an opinion and it's not really based on fact. The interesting part about the bolded is that Zadorov WAS one of the most sought after players in the league, at least in this UFA, which was also why they got 5M offers from at least two teams. You don't get 5M for being a bum. And there's a reason why some defenseman don't make so much.

 

It's really not. I call them like I see them. I watch every single game. It's simply my opinion that he leaves a fair bit to be desired defensively in many respects. Like he's not really keen on it. He's effective because he's a physical specimen and plays an average all around game but he's not an overly great thinker of the game. He's not a bum he just got real cushy UFA deal for what he is.

[Bob Long]

On 7/6/2024 at 7:54 PM, N4ZZY said:

well, that was fast. It didn't take long for people to think those contracts aren't going to age well. 

 

 

It's funny, the athletic writers like those deals.

[Bob Long]

7 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Forbort and Desharnais is not a "slight" downgrade on Cole and Zadorvov even if you try to put a Canucks spin on it.

Cole is better than both Forbort and Desharnais and Zadorov is so much better than all 3 of them. 

The fact that Cole is making almost the same amount as both Forbort and Desharnais combined when all 3 were available on the open market is telling what the other GMs think about these players... 

That being said, I am a Canucks fan so I'm obviously rooting for the new guys. I hope Desharnais continues to take big steps and improve this year. I'm hoping he really surprises and is a stable bottom pairing defender who can work well with his partner so that there isn't a big drop off on the 3rd pairing. I hope Forbort can stay healthy and still has gas in the tank to be a solid bottom pairing guy. 

That would be a huge win if they can do that. 

PA then can use his cap space mid season and jump on another good deal (like Zadorov) 

 

 

 

 

If the new guys can be coached to improve the way Myers was, we will be as good or maybe better on the pk. If not.... Could be an adventure.

 

It comes down to Foote imo. 

 

It would be amazing if Foote could unlock top 4 potential from VD, but not really expecting that big an improvement. It would be hilarious to see oiler fan reactions tho.

[Coryberg]

9 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Forbort and Desharnais is not a "slight" downgrade on Cole and Zadorvov even if you try to put a Canucks spin on it.

Cole is better than both Forbort and Desharnais and Zadorov is so much better than all 3 of them. 

The fact that Cole is making almost the same amount as both Forbort and Desharnais combined when all 3 were available on the open market is telling what the other GMs think about these players... 

That being said, I am a Canucks fan so I'm obviously rooting for the new guys. I hope Desharnais continues to take big steps and improve this year. I'm hoping he really surprises and is a stable bottom pairing defender who can work well with his partner so that there isn't a big drop off on the 3rd pairing. I hope Forbort can stay healthy and still has gas in the tank to be a solid bottom pairing guy. 

That would be a huge win if they can do that. 

PA then can use his cap space mid season and jump on another good deal (like Zadorov) 

 

 

 

According to advanced analytics both players have a higher WAR%. Obviously everyone loved it when Zadorov turned it on and decided to make a difference in a game but you shouldnt forget the handfull of games before and after where he was our #6 for a reason.

 

Zadorov was an excellent 3rd pairing defenceman, the thing that you need to remember about that is he was a 3rd pairing defenceman. We got a downgrade in 5 on 5 but a massive upgrade on the PK. Overall I would call that slight downgrade, definitely worth 4.6 million in cap space.

[spook007]

Can somebody please tell me what  "Teammates" represents?

[PureQuickness]

9 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

It's really not. I call them like I see them. I watch every single game. It's simply my opinion that he leaves a fair bit to be desired defensively in many respects. Like he's not really keen on it. He's effective because he's a physical specimen and plays an average all around game but he's not an overly great thinker of the game. He's not a bum he just got real cushy UFA deal for what he is.

 

None of that changes from the 'demand' factor that you brought up though. He is paid that much because of his game. No one said he had to be perfect.

[Elias Pettersson]

20 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Can somebody please tell me what  "Teammates" represents?

 

Apparently, Desharnais is really cheap and doesn't take his teammates out for dinner...   

[The Duke]

54 minutes ago, Coryberg said:

According to advanced analytics both players have a higher WAR%. Obviously everyone loved it when Zadorov turned it on and decided to make a difference in a game but you shouldnt forget the handfull of games before and after where he was our #6 for a reason.

 

Zadorov was an excellent 3rd pairing defenceman, the thing that you need to remember about that is he was a 3rd pairing defenceman. We got a downgrade in 5 on 5 but a massive upgrade on the PK. Overall I would call that slight downgrade, definitely worth 4.6 million in cap space.

It’ll be interesting to see how the D looks compared to last year once the season starts.

 

I’m comfortable predicting it won’t be noticeably worse so long as we’re healthy.  However, compared to the end of last year, we’re a lot less deep.  
 

We would have been screwed without Hughes last year, too. But any of Hronek, Myers or Soucy going down for an extended period this year will put a ton of strain on the defence group. 
 

And I think management knows that. We have a little space. It’ll probably be used to fill that #3-4 defenceman at some point this year.

Edited July 8 by The Duke

[Diamonds]

1 hour ago, spook007 said:

Can somebody please tell me what  "Teammates" represents?

I'm assuming it's quality of teammates they played with. So basically it's saying their partners were shit (a little less shit for Zadorov).

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Apparently, Desharnais is really cheap and doesn't take his teammates out for dinner...   

Does he order a round of beers and then go to the bathroom? Does he let team mates buy him dinner? Much of this behavior must reflect AHL life. Not a lot of money. 

[Coryberg]

1 hour ago, spook007 said:

Can somebody please tell me what  "Teammates" represents?

This site explains the system...

 

https://jfresh.substack.com/p/2022-nhl-player-cards-explainer