Alflives Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 2 hours ago, Coryberg said: According to advanced analytics both players have a higher WAR%. Obviously everyone loved it when Zadorov turned it on and decided to make a difference in a game but you shouldnt forget the handfull of games before and after where he was our #6 for a reason. Zadorov was an excellent 3rd pairing defenceman, the thing that you need to remember about that is he was a 3rd pairing defenceman. We got a downgrade in 5 on 5 but a massive upgrade on the PK. Overall I would call that slight downgrade, definitely worth 4.6 million in cap space. Yup. Deharnais will prove better than Big Z. Bruins’ fans will soon be calling for Bog Z to be Big Buyout. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryberg Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, The Duke said: And I think management knows that. We have a little space. It’ll probably be used to fill that #3-4 defenceman at some point this year. That's my assumption seeing how deep the forward depth is I'm wondering if they are going to try to flip hoglander for a cost controlled 20 minute blueliner on a cap strapped team. With the poolman ltir we could afford a 4 mil plus dman by replacing Hogs with PDG and sending Friedman down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryberg Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Just now, Alflives said: Yup. Deharnais will prove better than Big Z. Bruins’ fans will soon be calling for Bog Z to be Big Buyout. I would hope that if he plays like crap in Boston that we could acquire him with retention. He wasn't a bad defenseman just too much money. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, Coryberg said: I would hope that if he plays like crap in Boston that we could acquire him with retention. He wasn't a bad defenseman just too much money. IMHAO is not signing Big Z was a bullet dodged. He’s a bottom pairing 29 year old. He can look good in short sports but will fall back to what he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 2 hours ago, Coryberg said: This site explains the system... https://jfresh.substack.com/p/2022-nhl-player-cards-explainer Thanks amigo Edited July 8 by spook007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillStrimma Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 On 7/5/2024 at 5:43 PM, EdgarM said: Thank you, we were basically Hughes/Hronek and then everyone else last year. I find it funny that we are praising Myers for having a great year when we do the exact opposite for Zadorov? From what I seen last year, I think they were all fairly good in the regular season but Cole faultered and Zadorov shined in the playoffs. Also, whatever faults Zadorov had, would Gonchar/Foote not be able to fix them the same way they helped Myers? What ever faults Zadorov had were nowhere near as bad as Myers faults in the past where he earned his handle, which was quite fitting before last season. Now Boston is going to use him in their top pairing or in the very least, in the top 4, so its not too crazy to think that he is more then just a career 5/6 defenseman in this league. Myers is 3 mill and PA would never had offered Myers six mill as Benning did. So if Zad had been cheaper, no problem. But now he was too expensive. As it turned out we got two D instead of 1. Desjardines and Myers for five. Offer Zad over five and somethings gotta give… So I don’t believe Zad got an offer of five mill. If so we would have no cap space left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 6 minutes ago, LillStrimma said: Myers is 3 mill and PA would never had offered Myers six mill as Benning did. So if Zad had been cheaper, no problem. But now he was too expensive. As it turned out we got two D instead of 1. Desjardines and Myers for five. Offer Zad over five and somethings gotta give… So I don’t believe Zad got an offer of five mill. If so we would have no cap space left. This we do not know... Last year AND the year before where folks were kicking Myers, PA and RT came out saying they were happy with how Myers was playing. When Benning signed Myers we needed a RHD, we were bottom of the league and sucked ass... He was projected to be paid $7M in free agency, so $6M to sign with a team that sucks, for a sought after 29 year old RHD, was not such a bad move.... I'm not standing up for Benning, but sometimes it is, as if you are going to blame him for WW2 next... He did do a few good moves and a few meh ones as well amongst all the garbage.... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillStrimma Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 24 minutes ago, spook007 said: This we do not know... Last year AND the year before where folks were kicking Myers, PA and RT came out saying they were happy with how Myers was playing. When Benning signed Myers we needed a RHD, we were bottom of the league and sucked ass... He was projected to be paid $7M in free agency, so $6M to sign with a team that sucks, for a sought after 29 year old RHD, was not such a bad move.... I'm not standing up for Benning, but sometimes it is, as if you are going to blame him for WW2 next... He did do a few good moves and a few meh ones as well amongst all the garbage.... So wich 29 year old player is PA even close to pay 6 mill? He saves that kind of money for players that can follow Petey and Hughes up through the years like Debrusk and Hronek. And the cap is going up now… If I’m not mistaken Benning was one if the suspects in planning the assasination of Franz Ferdinand. So it wasn’t WW2… But for real, wich GM is even close to Bennings level? There is a reason why I talked about a modern management and called Bennings style neanderthal. Edited July 8 by LillStrimma 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 37 minutes ago, spook007 said: This we do not know... Last year AND the year before where folks were kicking Myers, PA and RT came out saying they were happy with how Myers was playing. When Benning signed Myers we needed a RHD, we were bottom of the league and sucked ass... He was projected to be paid $7M in free agency, so $6M to sign with a team that sucks, for a sought after 29 year old RHD, was not such a bad move.... I'm not standing up for Benning, but sometimes it is, as if you are going to blame him for WW2 next... He did do a few good moves and a few meh ones as well amongst all the garbage.... How many people wanted to sign Myers ? I could be mistaken but apparently the only one that was really targeting Myers was Benning. Was it Myers when the folks in the media were claiming Benning was trying to out bit himself? Or was that another signing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post spook007 Posted July 8 Popular Post Share Posted July 8 2 hours ago, LillStrimma said: So wich 29 year old player is PA even close to pay 6 mill? He saves that kind of money for players that can follow Petey and Hughes up through the years like Debrusk and Hronek. And the cap is going up now… If I’m not mistaken Benning was one if the suspects in planning the assasination of Franz Ferdinand. So it wasn’t WW2… But for real, wich GM is even close to Bennings level? There is a reason why I talked about a modern management and called Bennings style neanderthal. Benning was a clown... we know that, but I still remember, when we signed Myers... He was expected to get $7M on the open market, and Benning was hailed for getting him signed at $6M...These are the gambles, GMs have to do, and luckily our management team now, are getting a lot more success now than Benning was... You don't sign a top 4 RHD for peanuts as a bottom team... It can be debated, if we at that stage in our cycle should even had entertained getting an expensive top 4 RHD, just like it could be debated whether we should even have signed Miller at that stage...or Eriksson... or Beagle etc... But these questions should be directed towards FA, as he was the one, who wouldn't let the team bottom out and rebuild properly, when everyone knew, it was over... As for Franz Ferdinand ... forgive me, I was only out by 25 years oe so... 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, iinatcc said: How many people wanted to sign Myers ? I could be mistaken but apparently the only one that was really targeting Myers was Benning. Was it Myers when the folks in the media were claiming Benning was trying to out bit himself? Or was that another signing? I don't recall that at all... I recall it as Benning having done a good deal, as Myers was expected to cost $7M/year... and to be fai, not many top 4 RHD would sign with Vancouver at the time, as the team sucked and so did the coaches at the time... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PureQuickness Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 9 minutes ago, spook007 said: I don't recall that at all... I recall it as Benning having done a good deal, as Myers was expected to cost $7M/year... and to be fai, not many top 4 RHD would sign with Vancouver at the time, as the team sucked and so did the coaches at the time... Yes, we have to be careful about historical revisionism. People are misremembering a lot of the details, likely clouded by their disdain for the GM. We saw this with the Juolevi pick, especially, even though the information AT THE TIME supported the pick. Myers got 6M because that's what the market set his price to be. It makes sense that he signed with us, given that he did meet his wife around that time too. He quite possibly may have left money on the table, but that's beside the point. 6M was an overpayment for him, in hindsight. But at 3M now and playing his best hockey of his career, Myers is a good re-signing now. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 2 hours ago, iinatcc said: How many people wanted to sign Myers ? I could be mistaken but apparently the only one that was really targeting Myers was Benning. Was it Myers when the folks in the media were claiming Benning was trying to out bit himself? Or was that another signing? PS. just to add on a bit from the Athletic at the time, this is the only thing I could find in a quick search... What to make of the Tyler Myers contract and the Canucks’ blue line overhaul By Harman Dayal Jul 2, 2019 79 The initial reaction was a sigh of relief — it could have been a lot worse. That Tyler Myers was going to become a Vancouver Canuck on July 1 seemed inevitable, but the worry always came down to dollars and term. Numbers in the $7-million range on a six or seven-year term were floated around in the days leading up, but ultimately both sides agreed to a five-year, $30-million deal that will pay the 29-year-old $6-million per year. It’s also nice that Myers’ no-movement clause becomes a no-trade after the first year which means he doesn’t have to be protected in the expansion draft. ADVERTISEMENT Whether that’s a good piece of negotiating by the Canucks or simply a market where many teams weren’t in on Myers is an unknown, although it is worth pointing out that no other team was seriously linked to him aside from Vancouver. Starting with the good, there’s no question that Myers will improve the blue line for next season. As I analyzed last week, if we look at the player independent of the contract, Myers will certainly provide short-term value. He moves the puck well, is mobile for his size and has scored more than 30 points in back-to-back seasons. Viz by CJ Turtoro, data courtesy Corey Sznajder In essence, there’s a lot to like about what Myers can do with the puck on his stick. He can lead breakouts with good outlet passes, facilitate offensive zone entries and injects offensive help. The 2008 first-round pick has consistently averaged over 20 minutes per game and addresses a direct need for the Canucks’ right side. Where things become a little less flattering for Myers is the defensive side of his game. Viz by Micah Blake McCurdy Winnipeg allowed high danger shots and scoring chances at a considerably worse rate when Myers was on the ice. This is because, despite his size, Myers struggles at defending in his own zone. He’s passive in reading and reacting to the developing play as opposed to being proactive and struggles to use his reach and frame to effectively defend both passing and shooting lanes. Chart via The Point The chart above is from The Point which uses Sportlogiq data and depicts 2017-18 defensive data. A lot of a player’s raw on-ice numbers are dependent on the team’s system they play, but in Myers’ case, you can see that he’s notably worse than the Jets’ average defenceman at allowing high danger scoring chances and passes to the slot. Blocking shots has become quite a divisive topic as far as evaluating defensive zone play — it’s often a sign of players who don’t have the puck, but I don’t think anyone’s summarized the point of contention better than The Athletic’s own Kent Wilson. Rather than looking at blocked shots per 60 minutes, it’d be a better idea to look at the percentage of attempted blocks that are successful. In Myers’ case, Sportlogiq data indicates that in 2017-18, just 74.8 percent of his attempted blocks were successful despite the fact that the league average is well over 80 percent. ADVERTISEMENT Long story short, Myers struggles at denying the opposition of passing and shooting lanes in his own zone despite his size and reach which leads him being prone to lots of quality chances against. Ultimately, the question is whether Myers’ offensive strengths outweigh his defensive weaknesses and that’s where things become a lot murkier. If you were to base your answer on this past season’s performance, you’d be led to a conclusion that he’s not the high-end top-4 defenceman he’ll be paid as. The Jets controlled less than 50 percent of the shots and scoring chances in 2018-19 when Myers was on the ice. Most importantly, it translated in the form of actual goals where the Jets were outscored 57-53 with Myers deployed. Talent wise, I think you’re looking at a number four or five defenceman, which still represents an upgrade. The problem with a Myers deal was never about the player itself — it’s about the cost it’d take to bring him to Vancouver. In that vein, even though $6 million per year for five seasons is more palatable than the potential 7x 7 years that kept coming up, it still doesn’t represent good value. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 (edited) 8 hours ago, Coryberg said: According to advanced analytics both players have a higher WAR%. Obviously everyone loved it when Zadorov turned it on and decided to make a difference in a game but you shouldnt forget the handfull of games before and after where he was our #6 for a reason. Zadorov was an excellent 3rd pairing defenceman, the thing that you need to remember about that is he was a 3rd pairing defenceman. We got a downgrade in 5 on 5 but a massive upgrade on the PK. Overall I would call that slight downgrade, definitely worth 4.6 million in cap space. I think that Zadorov sheet is from Nov 2023 when he just became a Canuck. I would love to see what his stats look like while in a canucks jersey and not the bottom feeding flames club. I thought he looked really good in a canucks jersey and especially amazing during playoffs. Does anyone have a recent one? Also it says it's a weighted average of past 3 seasons. So yeah i dont think this is the right data to use to compare these players. Edited July 9 by CanucksJay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 4 hours ago, LillStrimma said: Myers is 3 mill and PA would never had offered Myers six mill as Benning did. So if Zad had been cheaper, no problem. But now he was too expensive. As it turned out we got two D instead of 1. Desjardines and Myers for five. Offer Zad over five and somethings gotta give… So I don’t believe Zad got an offer of five mill. If so we would have no cap space left. There in lies a more concerning issue then not resigning Zadorov................. We signed an aging(34 yr old), inconsistent, Myers for another 3 years at 3 million! We deemed him more important because he was signed before free agency even started. I am pretty sure, if we didn't sign him, we would have had better options once free agency opened and we would have had the cap space too. If Zadorov out priced himself, the priority should have been to find another top 4 defenseman, not 2 bargain basement ones. Quality over Quantity. To top it all off, we have now put our faith in Myers to play in the top 4 for the next 3 years, yay! He will be 37-38 by that time. I thought Soucy /Myers was our third pairing and he should not have not have been given a 9 million dollar contract, thats crazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Aquaman Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Good signing, the Canucks have trees on the defence again. With Sherwood signing, the Canucks won’t be fun to play against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillStrimma Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 9 hours ago, spook007 said: Benning was a clown... we know that, but I still remember, when we signed Myers... He was expected to get $7M on the open market, and Benning was hailed for getting him signed at $6M...These are the gambles, GMs have to do, and luckily our management team now, are getting a lot more success now than Benning was... You don't sign a top 4 RHD for peanuts as a bottom team... It can be debated, if we at that stage in our cycle should even had entertained getting an expensive top 4 RHD, just like it could be debated whether we should even have signed Miller at that stage...or Eriksson... or Beagle etc... But these questions should be directed towards FA, as he was the one, who wouldn't let the team bottom out and rebuild properly, when everyone knew, it was over... As for Franz Ferdinand ... forgive me, I was only out by 25 years oe so... Well, I said that PA wouldn’t have signed him in a similar situation. Not that it was one of the better deals Benning did. But then we can go into OEL where Benning goes for a 1st LD when we already had a 1st LD. OEL needed his first PP-time wich Hughes took. A totally insane trade. I couldn’t fathom how bad that trade was initially since I didn’t understand how important the first PPtime was for a player like OEL. But Benning and his team should have known that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillStrimma Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 7 hours ago, EdgarM said: There in lies a more concerning issue then not resigning Zadorov................. We signed an aging(34 yr old), inconsistent, Myers for another 3 years at 3 million! We deemed him more important because he was signed before free agency even started. I am pretty sure, if we didn't sign him, we would have had better options once free agency opened and we would have had the cap space too. If Zadorov out priced himself, the priority should have been to find another top 4 defenseman, not 2 bargain basement ones. Quality over Quantity. To top it all off, we have now put our faith in Myers to play in the top 4 for the next 3 years, yay! He will be 37-38 by that time. I thought Soucy /Myers was our third pairing and he should not have not have been given a 9 million dollar contract, thats crazy! Myers can crush players into his fourties. It’s almost the only thing he get paid for. Oh, and his a RD. Zad is a leftie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 (edited) 11 hours ago, spook007 said: PS. just to add on a bit from the Athletic at the time, this is the only thing I could find in a quick search... What to make of the Tyler Myers contract and the Canucks’ blue line overhaul I think 7 x 6 years would have been too high considering, at the time, people were penciling him in as a #4 and #5 D-Man already. The article you posted did also say there were no other teams linked to Myers except the Canucks which probably lead to the narrative that Benning was out bidding himself. Not saying another team would not have signed him but if, Vancouver was the only bidder, another team probably would have signed him for much lower than what Benning was offering. That is the thing about Benning in the Vacuum maybe this signing was ok but it helps add to Benning's long history of overpaying for free agents or trades that eventually lead to his downfall. Edited July 9 by iinatcc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 11 hours ago, PureQuickness said: Yes, we have to be careful about historical revisionism. People are misremembering a lot of the details, likely clouded by their disdain for the GM. We saw this with the Juolevi pick, especially, even though the information AT THE TIME supported the pick. Myers got 6M because that's what the market set his price to be. It makes sense that he signed with us, given that he did meet his wife around that time too. He quite possibly may have left money on the table, but that's beside the point. 6M was an overpayment for him, in hindsight. But at 3M now and playing his best hockey of his career, Myers is a good re-signing now. That would be a good point if the majority narrative at the actual time wasn’t that he was overpaid…. Which it was. You can easily go look at the articles from the time and the vast bulk were that Myers was a guy with bad numbers on basically every model and got entranced by the fact he was big. Dom Luszczyszyn’s model had him pegged at a $3.3 million value. Others had him at below replacement level (meaning an AHL/NHL fringe level. They were all right, it isn’t revisionist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PureQuickness Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, Provost said: That would be a good point if the majority narrative at the actual time wasn’t that he was overpaid…. Which it was. You can easily go look at the articles from the time and the vast bulk were that Myers was a guy with bad numbers on basically every model and got entranced by the fact he was big. Dom Luszczyszyn’s model had him pegged at a $3.3 million value. Others had him at below replacement level (meaning an AHL/NHL fringe level. They were all right, it isn’t revisionist Both things could still be true. The market price was set high for Myers (too high in hindsight) and that Myers never ended up living up to the contract. My point was that market price does not match up with 'actual' price. Comparison is like our housing prices. The house physically is not worth 1M+. The land, however, is beyond that, so it makes even the worst house worth that much simply because of the area. Edited July 9 by PureQuickness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 4 hours ago, iinatcc said: I think 7 x 6 years would have been too high considering, at the time, people were penciling him in as a #4 and #5 D-Man already. The article you posted did also say there were no other teams linked to Myers except the Canucks which probably lead to the narrative that Benning was out bidding himself. Not saying another team would not have signed him but if, Vancouver was the only bidder, another team probably would have signed him for much lower than what Benning was offering. That is the thing about Benning in the Vacuum maybe this signing was ok but it helps add to Benning's long history of overpaying for free agents or trades that eventually lead to his downfall. Aye cheers amigo, My point was just, it was reported that he could get around 7x7 and thus getting him for 5x$6M wasn't bad... Again, I'm not standing up for Benning, but he wanted a top RHD and for some reason thought Myers was it... he clearly wasn't, and even as a top 4 he was the 4th... so yes in hindsight, he was vastly overpaid... But with Guddy being paid $4M as a pylon, who could throw them, But rarely did... not surprised Myers got paid.... Thing is nearly all FAs ends up looking like over payments... or just break even on their contracts... that's the down side of going into the FA market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuyLafleur10 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 I know nothing about all these charts and advanced stats. If a player plays on a team with a good PK, aren't they going to have better numbers than a player playing on a bad PK? How does it take into account if that player was the bad player on a good PK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 7 hours ago, LillStrimma said: Well, I said that PA wouldn’t have signed him in a similar situation. Not that it was one of the better deals Benning did. But then we can go into OEL where Benning goes for a 1st LD when we already had a 1st LD. OEL needed his first PP-time wich Hughes took. A totally insane trade. I couldn’t fathom how bad that trade was initially since I didn’t understand how important the first PPtime was for a player like OEL. But Benning and his team should have known that. That I am 100% behind... I. like yourself, thought there must be a reason, why Benning had such a hard on for OEL... There really wasn't... He got rid go some contracts, he would have gotten rid off the year after for nothing, and instead f'ed it up totally... I think, at that stage he was on a warning from Aquilinis to get into the playoffs again, and then made these terrible moves trying to do so... 1 year, he could have waited, and we wouldn't have OEL cap issues for the next 5 years... Thank god, we now have a management team AND STAFF, who seem to have the finger on the pulse... It is so much more tight nit and well run, that it can't even be compared... thankfully.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 16 minutes ago, GuyLafleur10 said: I know nothing about all these charts and advanced stats. If a player plays on a team with a good PK, aren't they going to have better numbers than a player playing on a bad PK? How does it take into account if that player was the bad player on a good PK? They don't. There's no substitute for actually watching the players instead of trusting some analytics dweeb who has zero understanding of the sport. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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