NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 20 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said: Rick Vaive (former Canuck) had a sort of similar statistical trajectory...went from a 200+ penalty minute machine to a 3x 50 goal scorer. We got Tiger Williams for him but man he would have looked nice taking passes from Gradin. I can picture Tanti sniping on one line and Vaive on the other. Oh well, I'll take Tiger and the 1982 run over some gawdy individual stats that didn't create any great memories for Maple Leafs fans. That Leafs team had some of the components to a solid team. That line of Sittler, McDonald & Williams formed one pretty effective line. Unfortunately for Leaf fans, Ballard's ego got in the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 (edited) 18 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said: That Leafs team had some of the components to a solid team. That line of Sittler, McDonald & Williams formed one pretty effective line. Unfortunately for Leaf fans, Ballard's ego got in the way Salming and Palmateer had the HOF D and top seven or so goalie covered. And Ian Turnbull was at least as good a 1B or 2D as Hronek. Their window had started to close by the start of the 80s though and the Williams for Derlago + Vaive trade worked out for both teams. Edited July 11 by Kevin Biestra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olli Juolevi Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 21 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said: Kind of like how Canucks fans now don't really know Ron Sedlbauer (first 40 goal scorer), Gary Smith (almost won the Hart Trophy for the Canucks in the 70s in net). Dennis Ververgaert, Dennis Kearns, Darcy Rota... Hell even King Richard seems to be somewhat forgotten now. I consider myself a pretty huge Canucks fan and a bit of a history/trivia geek, but I've never heard of Seldbauer or Smith before. Ververgaert, Kearns, and Rota I've heard of but don't really know much about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, Olli Juolevi said: I consider myself a pretty huge Canucks fan and a bit of a history/trivia geek, but I've never heard of Seldbauer or Smith before. Ververgaert, Kearns, and Rota I've heard of but don't really know much about. Man Gary Smith was the first true great in net. Played over 70 games in 1974-75 I think, got us our first ever division title singlehandedly, then won our first ever playoff game against the mighty Canadiens dynasty if I remember right. He was maybe 5th in Hart Trophy voting that year and probably would have been a finalist if the team had been original six or in the east. He was the gold standard until King Richard...then McLean and Luongo. Ververgaert I think set the All Star Game record for fastest two or three goals when he went there as a Canuck around maybe 1979. Sedlbauer...just had the one big year really but it was a good one and I think he was the only 40 goal scorer in almost the first 15 years of Canucks history until Tanti and Rota showed up. I think my avatar is the cover from the book the Canucks released in 1990 to celebrate their 20th anniversary. Bure hadn't quite yet entered the picture and the cover had the five icons of Canucks hockey to that point, King Richard, Reinhart, Smyl, Snepsts and maybe Gradin was the other one. But it had some good write ups on some of those guys like Sedlbauer and Ververgeart etc. who would later be unfortunately less celebrated. But I guess that happens. I wonder if really good players like Reed Larson, Mike Foligno, Laurie Boschman, Barry Beck, etc. get much attention in their old cities these days. Barry Beck (from Vancouver) - there's another guy who seemed like he might have been en route to the Hall of Fame before injuries came into play. Edited July 11 by Kevin Biestra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 Also the list of active players or inactive but not yet eligible players who I would see being inducted, even if they retired tomorrow... Jaromir Jagr Joe Thornton Patrick Marleau Zdeno Chara Corey Perry Sidney Crosby Alex Ovechkin Evgeni Malkin Patrick Kane Jonathan Toews Duncan Keith Marc Andre Fleury Connor McDavid Leon Draisaitl Nikita Kucherov Steven Stamkos Andrei Vasiliesvkiy Brad Marchand (ewwww) Victor Hedman Anze Kopitar Brent Burns Phil Kessel Auston Matthews Nathan MacKinnon Erik Karlsson Roman Josi Drew Doughty Carey Price Sergei Bobrvsky Maybe... Joe Pavelski Eric Staal John Tavares Claude Giroux Kris Letang Jonathan Quick Ryan Getzlaf Tuukka Rask PK Subban And some who aren't in if they retired tomorrow but who are trending toward the Hall of Fame if things keep going well. Although, beware the ballad of Tim Kerr and Barry Pederson... Quinn Hughes Cale Makar Adam Fox Artemi Panarin David Pastrnak Connor Hellebuyck (in Tim Thomas territory, just needs to play a few more seasons, even badly for career totals). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzle Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said: Also the list of active players or inactive but not yet eligible players who I would see being inducted, even if they retired tomorrow... Jaromir Jagr Joe Thornton Patrick Marleau Zdeno Chara Corey Perry Sidney Crosby Alex Ovechkin Evgeni Malkin Patrick Kane Jonathan Toews Duncan Keith Marc Andre Fleury Connor McDavid Leon Draisaitl Nikita Kucherov Steven Stamkos Andrei Vasiliesvkiy Brad Marchand (ewwww) Victor Hedman Anze Kopitar Brent Burns Phil Kessel Auston Matthews Nathan MacKinnon Erik Karlsson Roman Josi Drew Doughty Carey Price Sergei Bobrvsky Maybe... Joe Pavelski Eric Staal John Tavares Claude Giroux Kris Letang Jonathan Quick Ryan Getzlaf Tuukka Rask PK Subban And some who aren't in if they retired tomorrow but who are trending toward the Hall of Fame if things keep going well. Although, beware the ballad of Tim Kerr and Barry Pederson... Quinn Hughes Cale Makar Adam Fox Artemi Panarin David Pastrnak Connor Hellebuyck (in Tim Thomas territory, just needs to play a few more seasons, even badly for career totals). Toews will likely get the nod simply for being the captain of a dynasty, but the guy has absolutely pedestrian numbers. Fun fact… he never had a season where he was over a ppg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 7 minutes ago, Dizzle said: Toews will likely get the nod simply for being the captain of a dynasty, but the guy has absolutely pedestrian numbers. Fun fact… he never had a season where he was over a ppg. Yeah he really wasn't a much better player than Linden in my opinion. He'll get in though based on Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey etc. I thought they totally jumped the gun officially naming him one of the best 100 players of all time a few years back. Anyway, I think Linden would have accomplished what Toews did on that same team and without the knee injury seven years into his career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) On 7/5/2024 at 10:39 PM, Curmudgeon said: Excellent, detailed and thoughtful work. I have no preferences, but I always remember what Ray Ferraro said, "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Really Good." There is a case to be made for each of the players you've listed. I'll leave it to others to argue. This. I'm not sure who said it, but have parroted it myself a few times in the past, and know around when I first read it. THN had several hockey writers questioning, why Clarke Gillies and even Bernie Federko were inducted in 2002. That was the first time I remember some writers/historians, weren't happy with the inductions and "it's not the hall of very good" was somewhat of a lament in the hockey universe. Andreychuk and recently Lowe, are the only others I re-call, considered bar lowering. Why?. None of these guys were ever super-stars. Federko was never a first or second team all-star. A middling Byng vote guy, and peaked at AS 4. Only received any votes, four of his seasons too, got zero the other seasons. Didn't win the cup. Wasn't a playoff monster. Dave Andreychuk, like Esposito (without the same scoring touch), lived infront of the net and did score a ton of power play goals. Think Ovi broke it, but it was his until he did. So there is that record. His last 11 or so years, he scored 15-21 or so goals, his first decade much better . The other decade double that or so on average. It did pile up, but as an individual, was rarely top tier compared to his peers, aside from the PP. AS votes and deservingly so, for 7 years. Couldn't quite get to number two, but did have four years of 3 which is definitely pretty darn good. Truly believe, he'd of had to wait a much longer time, if he didn't win a cup in the end. 640 goals is eye popping, until you figure out it's an average of 27/28 goals a season. Tale of two careers, and if we are being totally honest, there are other guys on this @Kevin Biestra's list, who had a better first 13 years, 7 30 plus goal season and two over 50. Would he have got in based just on his first 13 years? Not a chance. Playing 23 NHL seasons, winning that cup. Was enough. Personally think that opened the door to reward others on longevity. That was a long final ten years. Playing for TO i'm sure boosted things. And it's hard to ignore 640 goals. Without a cup, he'd be the Curtis Joseph of forwards at best. Cujo at least, was very close to winning individual hardware. As for Federko. There was some whining at the time that the bar just got lowered. And it certainly was considered an underwhelming year. Despite a PPG career and milestones. It was about he didn't win, and wasn't ever considered a super-star (1st and second team all-star type). Brian Prop. Brian Bellows. Absolutely Theo Fluery. Bernie Nichols. Mogilny. Others i'm sure, should all be in based on the Federko bar. And you don't need 400 goals either, so Naslund maybe too. He did his best work in the dead puck era, 3 time first team all-star in a row, almost an Art Ross (Forsberg just squeeked past him, on less goals), a Pearson. Then again Naslund didn't have a hot start or a hot finish really. Is 3 super-star seasons enough? Then there is Gillies. A special hockey player no doubt. That said Tonelli was a better hockey player, and i'd argue more important too. Like Kesler was for the Sedins. Took a ton of pressure off their first line, and took on the toughest assignments. Don't mind Gillies getting in, it opens the door for character guys with amazing skill sets to get some due. It's odd that we haven't seen anyone else though. Maybe because his cup rings also mattered a lot. OP made good cases for quite a few of these guys. Close to a dozen or so couid go under the Federko column. I think they realized, winning a cup shouldn't penalize a player with all the teams and plans for future expansion with him. Edited July 20 by IBatch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 On 7/12/2024 at 5:52 PM, Kevin Biestra said: Yeah he really wasn't a much better player than Linden in my opinion. He'll get in though based on Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey etc. I thought they totally jumped the gun officially naming him one of the best 100 players of all time a few years back. Anyway, I think Linden would have accomplished what Toews did on that same team and without the knee injury seven years into his career. Agreed. Linden easily would have 400 plus goals and 1000 plus points to go with his playoff performance's. And likely be in the HHOF. The first 6-7 years, Modano versus Linden, were considered very equal picks. 94, he was really just getting started. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted 11 hours ago Author Share Posted 11 hours ago (edited) On 7/20/2024 at 3:50 AM, IBatch said: Agreed. Linden easily would have 400 plus goals and 1000 plus points to go with his playoff performance's. And likely be in the HHOF. The first 6-7 years, Modano versus Linden, were considered very equal picks. 94, he was really just getting started. Yeah I think peak Linden was kind of similar to Kirk Muller...and would have had a lot more staying power with his 80-ish point seasons had he not blown out his knee in 1996 or whenever it was, right at the height of things and ending his league leading ironman streak I think. Age-wise, I think Stan Smyl would have basically been Glenn Anderson had he been on the Oilers, as Dave Babych would have been...Brad Park to Coffey's Bobby Orr...though who knows if Stan's body would have still given out at 30. As for Linden...too young to be on the Oilers dynasty but would have been a monster...maybe Brendan Shanahan-esque...on the Red Wings and probably a Hall of Famer on the Penguins or Avalanche as well. Edited 11 hours ago by Kevin Biestra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago (edited) On 7/20/2024 at 3:40 AM, IBatch said: As for Federko. There was some whining at the time that the bar just got lowered. And it certainly was considered an underwhelming year. Despite a PPG career and milestones. It was about he didn't win, and wasn't ever considered a super-star (1st and second team all-star type). Brian Prop. Brian Bellows. Absolutely Theo Fluery. Bernie Nichols. Mogilny. Others i'm sure, should all be in based on the Federko bar. And you don't need 400 goals either, so Naslund maybe too. With Henrik Sedin in on the first ballot, you don't even need 250. He has to be the modern low water mark for goals by a non-injury shortened career by a non-defensive specialist. As it stands, Bob Gainey had literally one less goal than Henrik (in 200 less games), and Guy Carbonneau had 20 more goals than Henrik. Edited 6 hours ago by Kevin Biestra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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