DeNiro Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 18 minutes ago, Diamonds said: Outscored by Alex Friesen (Also outscored quite handily by Linden Vey and fellow failed prospect Michael Dal Colle) What a mixed bag legacy Benning left behind. On one hand you’re like wow this guy got us so many great players. Then on the other hand you’re questioning who ties his shoes for him… And it’s not just the drafting it’s so many other moves and lack of moves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nergish Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 5 minutes ago, DeNiro said: What a mixed bag legacy Benning left behind. On one hand you’re like wow this guy got us so many great players. Then on the other hand you’re questioning who ties his shoes for him… And it’s not just the drafting it’s so many other moves and lack of moves. Yeah, I'm more than willing to admit that Jet Black Jim was a poor GM. But for his drafting successes alone, he's far from the worst. He telegraphed Quinn Hughes when everyone else was content to let him slide at the draft, even going so far as to tell Jim Hughes: "we're taking your son" the day before. Had Cale Makar as a 1st OA talent on his board that year. Took Demko with a relatively high pick (2nd goalie off the board). Scouted Boeser in person when seemingly no one else was. The guy was a skilled Dman in his own right, and knew how to draft 'em. Juolevi not withstanding... His pro scouting was atrocious, obviously. But the JT Miller trade is moving up the ranks for best in the history of this organization. I never enjoyed piling on Jimbo like some did. He wasn't great, but he did some great things. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 2 hours ago, LillStrimma said: So you say that he as a GM should be hands on every contract? I thought every team had specialists doing that. Intelligence does a lot and he should be very good with words since he became a GM without experience. So in my view it seems he has staff that works against him. Can you explain how hIs inexperience was bad for the team? look at how they handled this offseason? like what have they done? signed riley stillman and chatfield? while losing players left and right... all they have done is signed stillman.. while losing peces skjei teurovainen guentzel and trying to trade necas.. looking at carolina's current defence and goalie?? they are prolly a wild card team at best next season.. quite a fall from being a contender.. their top 6 is still going to be good.. but their defence is led by an ancient burn orlov slavin and ghost/chatfield?? with an injury prone anderssen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, nergish said: Yeah, I'm more than willing to admit that Jet Black Jim was a poor GM. But for his drafting successes alone, he's far from the worst. He telegraphed Quinn Hughes when everyone else was content to let him slide at the draft, even going so far as to tell Jim Hughes: "we're taking your son" the day before. Had Cale Makar as a 1st OA talent on his board that year. Took Demko with a relatively high pick (2nd goalie off the board). Scouted Boeser in person when seemingly no one else was. The guy was a skilled Dman in his own right, and knew how to draft 'em. Juolevi not withstanding... His pro scouting was atrocious, obviously. But the JT Miller trade is moving up the ranks for best in the history of this organization. I never enjoyed piling on Jimbo like some did. He wasn't great, but he did some great things. I mean even the OEL trade might have turned out alright had he made Arizona retain more. Imagine OEL without the injuries at say 5.25 mil? Plus Garland? That deal starts to look a lot better. I gotta think the downturn started when Linden left and Benning was forced to take on way more than he could handle. He was not a hockey operations guy, he needed to be out scouting players. Probably why him and Chiarelli worked well together. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, DeNiro said: What a mixed bag legacy Benning left behind. On one hand you’re like wow this guy got us so many great players. Then on the other hand you’re questioning who ties his shoes for him… And it’s not just the drafting it’s so many other moves and lack of moves. I'd like to see a study of Jimbo vs random, and see what comes out better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 5 hours ago, DeNiro said: Time for Canucks to circle back then. Hoglander and a 1st? Garly, hogs and a 1st might get it done, if they fail on landing Ehlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWJC Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Garly, hogs and a 1st might get it done, if they fail on landing Ehlers. Would rather have those assets at this point and be loaded depth wise and go into the season to test what works out until half way point. Take a run at other UFAs to be at deadline or next free agency. No point in dumping more assets for singular pieces, especially those with me first attitudes. Had Necas just continued to prove himself, CAR wouldn’t have looked to secure better pieces. Great player but was surpassed by those with arguably more heart, skill and a willingness to play for the team, crest and coach…you know…what our whole ethos is about. I’d like him here but not at what will be a heavy price point and certainly not at the cost of players who play at or above contract value. And no more trading F’n 1st rounders! This draft was so boring this year, hah Edited July 8 by RWJC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, RWJC said: Would rather have those assets at this point and be loaded depth wise and go into the season to test what works out until half way point. Take a run at other UFAs to be at deadline or next free agency. No point in dumping more assets for singular pieces, especially those with me first attitudes. Had Necas just continued to prove himself, CAR wouldn’t have looked to secure better pieces. Great player but was surpassed by those with arguably more heart, skill and a willingness to play for the team, crest and coach…you know…what our whole ethos is about. I’d like him here but not at what will be a heavy price point and certainly not at the cost of players who play at or above contract value. And no more trading F’n 1st rounders! This draft was so boring this year, hah If we can actually bank cap space this year, I'm all for that path too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: I'd like to see a study of Jimbo vs random, and see what comes out better. I did a deep dive into our first round picks Vs. The various major draft lists. Benning did worse than most of them. Button and Pronman had the best picks if you were redrafting. The only player that could really be considered a win was Petterson as most lists had him at that pick as the highest and most a couple picks later. Hughes would have been the consensus pick at our spot or higher and it was only a couple of bad selections ahead of us that were a little off the board that let him fall to us. You can’t really give credit to a guy for running around 50% success with top ten picks, those are supposed to be pretty much money in the bank. If you put all the top players names into a hat, brain damaged monkey could pick some great players with enough selections. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 9 minutes ago, Provost said: I did a deep dive into our first round picks Vs. The various major draft lists. Benning did worse than most of them. Button and Pronman had the best picks if you were redrafting. The only player that could really be considered a win was Petterson as most lists had him at that pick as the highest and most a couple picks later. Hughes would have been the consensus pick at our spot or higher and it was only a couple of bad selections ahead of us that were a little off the board that let him fall to us. You can’t really give credit to a guy for running around 50% success with top ten picks, those are supposed to be pretty much money in the bank. If you put all the top players names into a hat, brain damaged monkey could pick some great players with enough selections. https://thehockeywriters.com/success-rates-of-nhl-draft-picks/ Once you get to 6th overall, you have less than a 50% chance of 500 games played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWJC Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Provost said: I did a deep dive into our first round picks Vs. The various major draft lists. Benning did worse than most of them. Button and Pronman had the best picks if you were redrafting. The only player that could really be considered a win was Petterson as most lists had him at that pick as the highest and most a couple picks later. Hughes would have been the consensus pick at our spot or higher and it was only a couple of bad selections ahead of us that were a little off the board that let him fall to us. You can’t really give credit to a guy for running around 50% success with top ten picks, those are supposed to be pretty much money in the bank. If you put all the top players names into a hat, brain damaged monkey could pick some great players with enough selections. pre draft at draft I actually have no hate for JB. Thanks to certain picks we have the best Dman in our history and have had a pretty solid core group of players to build off of. At least he left the org with that, even if some were obvious picks Edited July 8 by RWJC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 3 hours ago, King Heffy said: https://thehockeywriters.com/success-rates-of-nhl-draft-picks/ Once you get to 6th overall, you have less than a 50% chance of 500 games played. That is a nonsense article that uses picks back to 1963. 6th is also an anomaly even with that as pick 14 still has a much higher chance over 50%. Drafting in the 60’s when the amateur draft was first invented is not relevant to the last 20 years. Scouting was effectively non existent, Vs being a detailed science now with huge staffs watching players since they were little kids. Nor is games played a meaningful number without actually correcting it for length of seasons and playoffs changing over time, average careers, etc. Even with all that, 500 games is almost double the career average of an NHLer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Provost said: That is a nonsense article that uses picks back to 1963. 6th is also an anomaly even with that as pick 14 still has a much higher chance over 50%. Drafting in the 60’s when the amateur draft was first invented is not relevant to the last 20 years. Scouting was effectively non existent, Vs being a detailed science now with huge staffs watching players since they were little kids. Nor is games played a meaningful number without actually correcting it for length of seasons and playoffs changing over time, average careers, etc. Even with all that, 500 games is almost double the career average of an NHLer. Randomly selected pick 8; went from 2018 as the most recent ones don't have enough body of work, and went 20 years back. Anything over 500 games is a hit, and I gave Mittlestadt the hit too as he's clearly good enough. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/draft_by_pick.php?position=8 Exactly 50% hit rate. Also keep in mind the draft age was 20 prior to 1980; this change made it a lot harder for scouts due to the players being less developed. Edited July 8 by King Heffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 4 hours ago, Provost said: I did a deep dive into our first round picks Vs. The various major draft lists. Benning did worse than most of them. Button and Pronman had the best picks if you were redrafting. The only player that could really be considered a win was Petterson as most lists had him at that pick as the highest and most a couple picks later. Hughes would have been the consensus pick at our spot or higher and it was only a couple of bad selections ahead of us that were a little off the board that let him fall to us. You can’t really give credit to a guy for running around 50% success with top ten picks, those are supposed to be pretty much money in the bank. If you put all the top players names into a hat, brain damaged monkey could pick some great players with enough selections. Benning was keen on taking “his guy” with our first pick. He’d go watch players for a short tournament and then pick one. Our scouts watched guys for years but would be ignored. Without Linden stepping in we don’t get Petey. Benning preferred Glass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 9 hours ago, King Heffy said: Randomly selected pick 8; went from 2018 as the most recent ones don't have enough body of work, and went 20 years back. Anything over 500 games is a hit, and I gave Mittlestadt the hit too as he's clearly good enough. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/draft_by_pick.php?position=8 Exactly 50% hit rate. Also keep in mind the draft age was 20 prior to 1980; this change made it a lot harder for scouts due to the players being less developed. #6 picks since 2000 to see where Virtanen stacks up. Hartnell Mika Koivu Upshall Michalek Montoya Brule Derrick Brassard Sam Gagner Filatov Ekman Larsson Brett Connelly Zabenajad Hampus Lindholm Sean Monahan Jake Virtanen Pavel Zacha Matthew Tkachuk Cody Glass Zadina Seider Jamie Drysdale Edvinnson Jiricek Simashev Tij Iginla Virtanen looks to be about the 2nd or 3rd worst pick in those 24 selections. Filatov was the only all out bust, but had a ten year career and played in Russia for most of it. There were some extenuating circumstances with him being caught in the middle of that transfer dispute between the NHL and KHL. Brule never got on track due to a bunch of injuries. Glass developed slower but is now a full time NHLer. Montoya played a bunch of seasons but as a back up so it is hard to gauge him compared to skaters. Some of the more recent picks just can’t be fully judged but even a guy like Drysdale us already looking to be a hit as a top four D. The rest are a list of guys who had solid to great careers. Go through 5th overall picks since 2000 and you see Juolevi is one of the worst of the bunch, definitely bottom 3 out of 24, and maybe the worst. His competition for worst pick is Dal Colle and Chistov. I put Juolevi as the bottom since even Dal Colle played a bunch of NHL games and Chistov had an excellent career, just spent his time in the KHL instead. Other guys with that pick… Torres, Whitney, Carey Price, Vanek, Wheeler, Alzner, the Schenn brothers, Kessel, Neiderreiter, Ryan Strome, Lindholm, Morgan Reilly, Hanafin, Petterson… then the younger guys who are still too early to fully judge but most have already far surpassed Juolevi With two of his highest picks, Benning made amongst the worst selections this century. Anyone defending that is just trying to cherry pick numbers. You don’t need to make up arbitrary numbers for what is a bust or not, you can actually look at the names and see the quality of most of the guys. Edited July 8 by Provost 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) On 7/7/2024 at 1:11 AM, Drakrami said: What retards.. Losing 2 of their top 6 forwards for nothing. Losing 2 of their top 4 defense for nothing. Now they are randomly trying to add Ehlers. Not to mention randomly signing Orslov and Kuznetsov which actually led to them losing so many valuable pieces this offseason. I thought may be a Marner deal is in the works for them. But now it looks more like they are just retards. Ouch! Ehlers, been tired of hearing his name for a very long time. Edited July 8 by IBatch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 lol if all it takes for Necas is ehler? Massive w for the jets 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Why even bother 'chasing' Ehlers when you can just re-sign your own top tier winger in Necas??? What terrible asset management by Carolina. Just about as bad as TBL these days. I think Carolina may drop in the standings more than people think next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 On 7/7/2024 at 4:47 PM, nergish said: Yeah, I'm more than willing to admit that Jet Black Jim was a poor GM. But for his drafting successes alone, he's far from the worst. He telegraphed Quinn Hughes when everyone else was content to let him slide at the draft, even going so far as to tell Jim Hughes: "we're taking your son" the day before. Had Cale Makar as a 1st OA talent on his board that year. Took Demko with a relatively high pick (2nd goalie off the board). Scouted Boeser in person when seemingly no one else was. The guy was a skilled Dman in his own right, and knew how to draft 'em. Juolevi not withstanding... His pro scouting was atrocious, obviously. But the JT Miller trade is moving up the ranks for best in the history of this organization. I never enjoyed piling on Jimbo like some did. He wasn't great, but he did some great things. He’s the first GM we have had to watch truly rebuild the shit hole that Gillis left behind. We’ve been very privileged as Canuck fans to not have to go through the painful process of a full rebuild until Gillis was fired. We went seamlessly from era to era with very little down time and suffering. Then the failure to find talent through the draft from 2005-2012 put a huge hole in the organization and as the years began to dwindle on the twins and the rest of the core, it looked like a very, very, dark road ahead….No prospects, aged out declining roster loaded with NMC and NTCs, disgruntled players…. It was a fucking nightmare to walk into and in less time he has turned this place around faster than countless other organizations. His mistakes or his “mistakes” I should say the things that didn’t work out, were 1000000x more noticeable because of the state the organization was in when he took over. When a pick doesn’t pan out it hits even harder because the last 10 years of drafting prior didn’t do a fucking thing. Now we are another year and another draft further behind…When a signing is too much or too long on a struggling/rebuilding team, it feels even more dreadfully long or even painfully more expensive. But none of that shit would have helped all that much more even if LE did work out. We weren’t anywhere close to realistically contending!! Benning did his best to increase his chances of finding solutions faster, he didn’t just bank on the draft itself. He also gambled on the development process with other organizations (Clendenning for Forsling) not only that but in trades he weighed their draft positions in any trade he ever made as to who was more likely to have an impact, stay and impact or become an increasing impact year by year. For example Gudbranson for McCann 3rd overall for 24th overall. Kesler for Sbisa+Bonino+24th 23rd for 19th+NHL player+24th The players he acquired in every trade that I’ve ever looked into, we have always received were always selected higher in whatever draft and that itself is a measure of “are we getting something with true potential in return?” Adam Clendenning 36OA for Forsling 153OA. Miller 15th for 20th+3rd rounder OEL 6th for a 9th not everything works out, but I can guarantee none of you have ever looked at what Benning was trying to do from this perspective and just how desperate we as an organization need this kind of outside the box thinking, to get ourselves back on the road to contention as fast as possible. Eriksson was a signing to ride out into the sunset with the twins at the same time. 6 year deal for a 31y/o guy who put up 30 goals and had international success and chemistry with the twins who were 34, that deal took the twins to the typical star player retirement age of 40. He did not gamble our future away every year or in any of the first 5 years and I could even says 7 years because he moved high picks for high calibre players who had age on their side to still provide room for development below. This is Jim Bennings fucking team. Not Allvins. without Garland, Joshua is without a contract. without Miller, Sutr ain’t even close to getting a sniff of the top line and there is no selke/hart calibre player without Miller without Boeser there is no 40 goal scorer without Hughes there is no Norris without Demko we do not have Vezina quality goaltending Without Pettersson, there is no elite talent with potential to win just about any offensive award and hart trophy. It’s time to appreciate Jim Benning and all that he did because he is the one who set us up for a very very long time and a very very good chance of a cup. There is no single contract you can complain about as being an absolute anchor at the very time we are now contending. It is now on Allvin to not fuck it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 On 7/8/2024 at 12:30 AM, Alflives said: Benning was keen on taking “his guy” with our first pick. He’d go watch players for a short tournament and then pick one. Our scouts watched guys for years but would be ignored. Without Linden stepping in we don’t get Petey. Benning preferred Glass. Without Benning personally keeping an eye on Boeser himself, no 40 goal scorer. without doing his job and listening to his advisers, he wouldn’t have drafted Pettersson. He put people in places whose word he could trust. Linden walked way pretty early and looks pretty fuckin arrogant and stupid now. What Benning put together is a contending core in a much shorter time than any other team without top 5 picks and generational talent. JB’s rebuild “trade chips” Aged out Bieksa Washed up Burrows no hands Hansen NMC I’m only playing here Kesler…. wont waive Hamhuis Don’t know how to waive Edler Yep sure looks like going all in will be easy to rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 6 minutes ago, AnthonyG said: Without Benning personally keeping an eye on Boeser himself, no 40 goal scorer. without doing his job and listening to his advisers, he wouldn’t have drafted Pettersson. He put people in places whose word he could trust. Linden walked way pretty early and looks pretty fuckin arrogant and stupid now. What Benning put together is a contending core in a much shorter time than any other team without top 5 picks and generational talent. JB’s rebuild “trade chips” Aged out Bieksa Washed up Burrows no hands Hansen NMC I’m only playing here Kesler…. wont waive Hamhuis Don’t know how to waive Edler Yep sure looks like going all in will be easy to rebuild. It was never going to be an easy rebuild... mainly because Aquilinis would allow the team to bottom out totally... We should have been in the Matthews or McDavid sweep stakes....But he did get some great picks from where he picked... not everything worked out draft wise, but he did get somethings right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 18 minutes ago, spook007 said: It was never going to be an easy rebuild... mainly because Aquilinis would allow the team to bottom out totally... We should have been in the Matthews or McDavid sweep stakes....But he did get some great picks from where he picked... not everything worked out draft wise, but he did get somethings right. And the fans need to be held accountable to have a realistic expectation. Expecting a cup and a rebuild, the best picks every time and every picky work out and be the best player in the draft, for every signing to be the best of free agency and best dollar per point value is just insanity. years and years.. almost a decade of complaining about the OJ pick, the LE deal that was signed when we were at our lowest… Virtanen… the shit that fans are still crying about 10 fucking years later… are so ridiculous. Like is their lives that depressing and have nothing else going on that they need to keep bringing up shit from 10 years ago?? Like why the hell can’t those doors close for good? Doesn’t hurt us right now and doesn’t hurt us down the road. Fans were pissed about Myers up til the end of this season yet he was one of our best defensive dmen his entire contract and they are only now just seeing it and were begging he get re-signed. cried about Tanev yet Don’t want to sign him now. Just let Zadorov walk and kept Myers who was the whipping boy for the clueless. The timing of letting Zadorov walk hurts more than when we let Tanev walk. That’s a gamble that could really hurt us while we are legitimately in the conversation of contenders 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said: And the fans need to be held accountable to have a realistic expectation. Expecting a cup and a rebuild, the best picks every time and every picky work out and be the best player in the draft, for every signing to be the best of free agency and best dollar per point value is just insanity. years and years.. almost a decade of complaining about the OJ pick, the LE deal that was signed when we were at our lowest… Virtanen… the shit that fans are still crying about 10 fucking years later… are so ridiculous. Like is their lives that depressing and have nothing else going on that they need to keep bringing up shit from 10 years ago?? Like why the hell can’t those doors close for good? Doesn’t hurt us right now and doesn’t hurt us down the road. Fans were pissed about Myers up til the end of this season yet he was one of our best defensive dmen his entire contract and they are only now just seeing it and were begging he get re-signed. cried about Tanev yet Don’t want to sign him now. Just let Zadorov walk and kept Myers who was the whipping boy for the clueless. The timing of letting Zadorov walk hurts more than when we let Tanev walk. That’s a gamble that could really hurt us while we are legitimately in the conversation of contenders The Zadorov issue is down to the numbers game... I've yet to hear anyone not loving Zad, but the question was really, how high are we going to go for a 'bottom' Dman... Could we afford to keep him with a $6M cap issue next season... These are the decisions managements live and die by... up until now the management team we have now, seems to have hit on most of their decisions if not all... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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