[Signing] Daniel Sprong to the Canucks

[CanuckMan]

2 hours ago, canucks curse said:

If we are trading garland 

imo he represents the only inefficient contract on the Canucks he is 1.5 mill over paid so not terrible 

 

to CAR 

garland 

podz 

hogz

 

to VAN 

Necas 

3rd 

 

Sprong Petey Necas

Debrusk Miller Brock 

Joshua Bluegger Sherwood 

pDG Aman Suter 

Heinen missing from your lineup. But I think if Garlands moved it will be for a dman. If it’s a top 4D we would probably have to add a pick or prospect as well. I don’t think we will move a forward for another forward.

[DrJockitch]

17 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

 We must be talking about two different things because over the last few seasons, maximizing LTIR meant going over the cap by as close to 2.5 million as possible so we get the full amount for replacement players. I'm not sure what the rules are when we are under and not using the LTIR. Poolman is considered full time LTIR and isn't expected to play again. At the moment he is considered a roster player and his salary is counted towards the cap. I'm not sure what the benefit is that you are referring to.

If they can get under the cap with Poolman on the active roster then they can start accruing cap space for the TDL. If they need to put Poolman on LTIR to be cap compliant on day 1 there is no accruing of salary cap for the deadline. 
So if can’t get under the cap without LTIR then it is best to maximize the amount you spend which is what we did perfectly last year. This year is a different situation and we can make it under with Poolman so best not to maximize every cent of cap as the more space you have, the more accrued at the end. 

Edited July 26 by DrJockitch

[RWMc1]

2 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

If they can get under the cap with Poolman on the active roster then they can start accruing cap space for the TDL. If they need to put Poolman on LTIR to be cap compliant on day 1 there is no accruing of salary cap for the deadline. 
So if can’t get under the cap without LTIR then it is best to maximize the amount you spend which is what we did perfectly last year. This year is a different situation and we can make it under with Poolman so best not to maximize every cent of cap as the more space you have, the more accrued at the end. 

 

That doesn't answer my question. I already mentioned that we are not in LTIR. How is getting as close to the cap as possible beneficial? How is that considered maximizing Poolman's LTIR when we are not in LTIR? The more cap space we have the more we can accrue by the trade deadline so getting within $15,000 limits how much we can accrue. The post I quoted claimed that we are maximizing Poolman's LTIR.

[MattJVD]

9 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

 

That doesn't answer my question. I already mentioned that we are not in LTIR. How is getting as close to the cap as possible beneficial? How is that considered maximizing Poolman's LTIR when we are not in LTIR? The more cap space we have the more we can accrue by the trade deadline so getting within $15,000 limits how much we can accrue. The post I quoted claimed that we are maximizing Poolman's LTIR.

LTIR does not automaticly guarantee you can exceed the cap by the cap hit of the player on LTIR. It allows you to replace the player, up to the maximum of their cap hit. If we were 1 mil under the cap, we could put Poolman on LTIR and be allowed to add a player(s) with a cap hit up to 2.5 million. We would only be allowed to exceed the cap by 1.5 million, because that's all it would take to replace the LTIR contract.

[GrammaInTheTub]

4 minutes ago, MattJVD said:

LTIR does not automaticly guarantee you can exceed the cap by the cap hit of the player on LTIR. It allows you to replace the player, up to the maximum of their cap hit. If we were 1 mil under the cap, we could put Poolman on LTIR and be allowed to add a player(s) with a cap hit up to 2.5 million. We would only be allowed to exceed the cap by 1.5 million, because that's all it would take to replace the LTIR contract.

Quit making sense - they were arguing about what “maximizing” means in a different way

[DrJockitch]

14 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

 

That doesn't answer my question. I already mentioned that we are not in LTIR. How is getting as close to the cap as possible beneficial? How is that considered maximizing Poolman's LTIR when we are not in LTIR? The more cap space we have the more we can accrue by the trade deadline so getting within $15,000 limits how much we can accrue. The post I quoted claimed that we are maximizing Poolman's LTIR.

I tried to lay that out as two separate scenarios, maybe it got garbled.  I wasn’t arguing somebody else’s position, if anything I was saying same thing you are. 
1.  We get under the cap including Poolman’s contract in which case we can accrue cap, in that situation then it is better for accrual to be further from the cap as it increases the amount accrued by TDL. 

2. Need to put Poolman on LTIR on day 1 so there will be no accrued cap space, in which case best to spend as close to cap as possible as there is no benefit not to and you can maximize your player expenditures. 
There are some more minor things there as well, I believe CA summarized them well last season when we hit the cap number perfectly. 
 

edit:  easier to just paste this in:

• If a team is cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, or uses LTIR at any point during the season, the LTIR Pool is the Cap Hit of the LTIR player less the team’s cap space when the player goes on LTIR.  For example, if a player with a $4M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $100K of Cap Space, the LTIR pool is $3.9M ($4M-$0.1M). Because of this, team’s often make several roster moves right before a player goes on LTIR in order to be as close to the cap as possible, in order to maximize the LTIR Pool
• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

Edited July 27 by DrJockitch

[The Lock]

On 7/25/2024 at 4:26 PM, Jester13 said:

But if we trade Garland, we might be able to land something good. It could even be another Garland! 

 

 

It's funny how you can literally have the GM who pretty much does the most trades in the NHL, and people still crave the new and shiny and want more trades. lol

[RWMc1]

9 hours ago, MattJVD said:

LTIR does not automaticly guarantee you can exceed the cap by the cap hit of the player on LTIR. It allows you to replace the player, up to the maximum of their cap hit. If we were 1 mil under the cap, we could put Poolman on LTIR and be allowed to add a player(s) with a cap hit up to 2.5 million. We would only be allowed to exceed the cap by 1.5 million, because that's all it would take to replace the LTIR contract.

That's just restating what has already been said.

[RWMc1]

4 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

I tried to lay that out as two separate scenarios, maybe it got garbled.  I wasn’t arguing somebody else’s position, if anything I was saying same thing you are. 
1.  We get under the cap including Poolman’s contract in which case we can accrue cap, in that situation then it is better for accrual to be further from the cap as it increases the amount accrued by TDL. 

2. Need to put Poolman on LTIR on day 1 so there will be no accrued cap space, in which case best to spend as close to cap as possible as there is no benefit not to and you can maximize your player expenditures. 
There are some more minor things there as well, I believe CA summarized them well last season when we hit the cap number perfectly. 
 

edit:  easier to just paste this in:

 

• If a team is cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, or uses LTIR at any point during the season, the LTIR Pool is the Cap Hit of the LTIR player less the team’s cap space when the player goes on LTIR.  For example, if a player with a $4M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $100K of Cap Space, the LTIR pool is $3.9M ($4M-$0.1M). Because of this, team’s often make several roster moves right before a player goes on LTIR in order to be as close to the cap as possible, in order to maximize the LTIR Pool
• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR ol is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

 

I'm not arguing about anything. I'm wondering if there is an LTIR mechanism that we can use by getting as close to the cap as possible like there is for going over by as close to Poolman's LTIR as possible.

 

It's sad that people perceive everything on the internet as a dispute.

[DrJockitch]

52 minutes ago, RWMc1 said:

 

I'm not arguing about anything. I'm wondering if there is an LTIR mechanism that we can use by getting as close to the cap as possible like there is for going over by as close to Poolman's LTIR as possible.

 

It's sad that people perceive everything on the internet as a dispute.

Nope (the cap part).

Tone is always hard in message boards and texts. I guess it is the old the media is the message cliche and the internet is an angry confrontational place. 

Edited July 27 by DrJockitch

[RWMc1]

6 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Nope (the cap part).

Tone is always hard in message boards and texts. I guess it is the old the media is the message cliche and the internet is an angry confrontational place. 

 

Yeah I get the tone part. It was annoying that people were basically paraphrasing what I posted while acting like they were refuting what I said.

 

I even stated that Poolman is considered full-time LTIR. There are different rules for that but fans aren't privy to them. I was just wondering if anyone had any knowledge of that.

[RWMc1]

I noticed that NY Islanders are right at the cap with 22 players. I wonder if they would take Poolman's contract as they could completely maximize it. The other options would be a team already in LTIR or a team with cap to spare. Trading out his contract for the final year would be our best case scenario at this point.

 

Edit: I just realized that the Islanders scenario makes no sense unless they trade a player as close to 2.5 million as possible. Doh.

 

 

Edited July 27 by RWMc1

[NewbieCanuckFan]

5 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

 

Yeah I get the tone part. It was annoying that people were basically paraphrasing what I posted while acting like they were refuting what I said.

 

I even stated that Poolman is considered full-time LTIR. There are different rules for that but fans aren't privy to them. I was just wondering if anyone had any knowledge of that.

The old Coyotes owners would've loved a contract like Poolman's (where insurance companies pick up the tab).  Not sure what other teams out there are having "issues" reaching the cap floor.

[cripplereh]

On 7/25/2024 at 1:00 PM, canuck73_3 said:

Sprong is awful defensively Garland is not, signing Sprong makes Podkolzin or PDG expendable not Garland 

I agree but Sprong also has to prove himself like Podz does.

 

I'd rather keep Podz if he can score 20 plus goals this year.

[MeanSeanBean]

4 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

The old Coyotes owners would've loved a contract like Poolman's (where insurance companies pick up the tab).  Not sure what other teams out there are having "issues" reaching the cap floor.

Feels like we've moved in from this era, at least for now. The teams who have been intentionally tanking like Chicago and Utah have been throwing money around recently trying to make a splash around their young core.

 

I personally don't see any teams functioning as the NHL dumping ground for bad contracts, at least for the time being 

[Provost]

On 7/26/2024 at 4:02 PM, RWMc1 said:

 

That doesn't answer my question. I already mentioned that we are not in LTIR. How is getting as close to the cap as possible beneficial? How is that considered maximizing Poolman's LTIR when we are not in LTIR? The more cap space we have the more we can accrue by the trade deadline so getting within $15,000 limits how much we can accrue. The post I quoted claimed that we are maximizing Poolman's LTIR.

My understanding is that if you are under the cap you only get the LTIR benefit of what would take you over the cap.  You don’t automatically get the full amount of cap relief and need to manage it correctly to maximize the amount you get.

 

LTIR means Long Term Injury Reserve, maximizing it is getting the most possible reserve pool and is irregardless of how and when we use it.

 

eg.  If the Canucks were $1 million under the cap and put Poolman on LTIR they can only exceed the cap by $1.5 million of his $2.5 million cap.  They can’t ever access that entire amount.  This is calculated on the day you put a player on LTIR and is locked in until they get back.

 

If the Canucks are right at the cap with Poolman, and then put him on LTIR then they get all $2.5 million in LTIR overage.

 

So it behooves them to be as close to the cap as possible at the start of the season when they put Poolman on LTIR to preserve the ability to use ALL his cap hit as LTIR whenever they want during the season.  That is maximizing his LTIR.

 

In our current case being only $15k under the cap with a 23 man roster we can put Poolman on LTIR and get the full amount of his contract in the reserve pool (minus the $15k we are under)… hence maximizing the LTIR pool available.

 

Day 2 we then drop down to a 21 man roster at least for home games and start accruing cap space AND having an extra $2.5 million in LTIR overage to use whenever we need it.

 

Then if we get further LTIR injuries we bring up extra players to get as close to the cap as possible before putting them on LTIR, then dropping those players if you don’t need them.

 

 

Edited July 28 by Provost

[MattJVD]

23 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

That's just restating what has already been said.

I thought that answered your question "How is getting as close to the cap as possible beneficial?"

[RWMc1]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

My understanding is that if you are under the cap you only get the LTIR benefit of what would take you over the cap.  You don’t automatically get the full amount of cap relief and need to manage it correctly to maximize the amount you get.

 

LTIR means Long Term Injury Reserve, maximizing it is getting the most possible reserve pool and is irregardless of how and when we use it.

 

eg.  If the Canucks were $1 million under the cap and put Poolman on LTIR they can only exceed the cap by $1.5 million of his $2.5 million cap.  They can’t ever access that entire amount.  This is calculated on the day you put a player on LTIR and is locked in until they get back.

 

If the Canucks are right at the cap with Poolman, and then put him on LTIR then they get all $2.5 million in LTIR overage.

 

So it behooves them to be as close to the cap as possible at the start of the season when they put Poolman on LTIR to preserve the ability to use ALL his cap hit as LTIR whenever they want during the season.  That is maximizing his LTIR.

 

In our current case being only $15k under the cap with a 23 man roster we can put Poolman on LTIR and get the full amount of his contract in the reserve pool (minus the $15k we are under)… hence maximizing the LTIR pool available.

 

Day 2 we then drop down to a 21 man roster at least for home games and start accruing cap space AND having an extra $2.5 million in LTIR overage to use whenever we need it.

 

Then if we get further LTIR injuries we bring up extra players to get as close to the cap as possible before putting them on LTIR, then dropping those players if you don’t need them.

 

 

I used capfriendly and know that info was there. The puckpedia quote explains my question. Thanks for the clarity.

[Hammertime]

How much cap do we accrue by the deadline by carrying Poolman on the active roster? 

[BigTramFan]

6 hours ago, Hammertime said:

How much cap do we accrue by the deadline by carrying Poolman on the active roster? 

If there are no changes to the roster shown on Puckpedia, then we have $15,833 in cap space for the season.

 

If we accrue that space until the 2025 TDL (could be on 6 March) that would leave 37 days out of the 186-day season to use the accrued space, so we'd have 186 / 37 x $15,833 = $79,590. Wow not much!

 

However, factor in the $2.5m of LTIR relief for Poolman and we have $2.579m to spend at the deadline.

 

After the TDL there are no roster limits so we could add a player up to $2.579m without sending anyone down to the AHL (24-man roster). Or we could send someone down and keep a 23-man roster, allowing us to be able to spend at least another $775k, so that puts a potential addition at around $3.354m.

 

The best way to create space for a big addition is to trade Poolman. Trading Poolman before the season starts would give us cap space of $2.515m. Accruing that space until the 2025 TDL would give us 186 / 37 x $2.515 = $12.64m deadline cap space. Enough for a couple of big additions.

[DrJockitch]

2 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

If there are no changes to the roster shown on Puckpedia, then we have $15,833 in cap space for the season.

 

If we accrue that space until the 2025 TDL (could be on 6 March) that would leave 37 days out of the 186-day season to use the accrued space, so we'd have 186 / 37 x $15,833 = $79,590. Wow not much!

 

However, factor in the $2.5m of LTIR relief for Poolman and we have $2.579m to spend at the deadline.

 

After the TDL there are no roster limits so we could add a player up to $2.579m without sending anyone down to the AHL (24-man roster). Or we could send someone down and keep a 23-man roster, allowing us to be able to spend at least another $775k, so that puts a potential addition at around $3.354m.

 

The best way to create space for a big addition is to trade Poolman. Trading Poolman before the season starts would give us cap space of $2.515m. Accruing that space until the 2025 TDL would give us 186 / 37 x $2.515 = $12.64m deadline cap space. Enough for a couple of big additions.

Can also run a 22 man roster at times to try to add a bit more accrual. 

[CanucksJay]

2 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

If there are no changes to the roster shown on Puckpedia, then we have $15,833 in cap space for the season.

 

If we accrue that space until the 2025 TDL (could be on 6 March) that would leave 37 days out of the 186-day season to use the accrued space, so we'd have 186 / 37 x $15,833 = $79,590. Wow not much!

 

However, factor in the $2.5m of LTIR relief for Poolman and we have $2.579m to spend at the deadline.

 

After the TDL there are no roster limits so we could add a player up to $2.579m without sending anyone down to the AHL (24-man roster). Or we could send someone down and keep a 23-man roster, allowing us to be able to spend at least another $775k, so that puts a potential addition at around $3.354m.

 

The best way to create space for a big addition is to trade Poolman. Trading Poolman before the season starts would give us cap space of $2.515m. Accruing that space until the 2025 TDL would give us 186 / 37 x $2.515 = $12.64m deadline cap space. Enough for a couple of big additions.

 

Is that how accrual works? 

Poolman @ 2.5m means he makes $13440 per day in a 186 day season.

Are we sure we're not accruing 13440 x (186-37) = which is 2m?

How did you get 186/37

I don't think I'm understanding accrual properly... 

 

12m @ the TDL would be amazing. 

Def worth it to add a pick and move Poolman if that's the case. 

[grumpyone]

35 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Can also run a 22 man roster at times to try to add a bit more accrual. 

if that was the case then I could see teams like Edmonton running with only 18 players to max out their accrual. I mean their top line plays 28 min a night anyway and their 4th line gets only about 8 min a night, they'd hardly miss it if they went with only 3 forward lines. 

Edited August 7 by grumpyone

[DrJockitch]

25 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

 

Is that how accrual works? 

Poolman @ 2.5m means he makes $13440 per day in a 186 day season.

Are we sure we're not accruing 13440 x (186-37) = which is 2m?

How did you get 186/37

I don't think I'm understanding accrual properly... 

 

12m @ the TDL would be amazing. 

Def worth it to add a pick and move Poolman if that's the case. 

Embedding this for clarification:

A team’s cap hit is calculated based on each day of the season (186 days). For every day a player is on the roster, the team’s cap hit is their full year cap hit divided by 186.  Once a player is on the roster, the calculations assume they will be on the roster for the remainder of year. Example: If a player with a $925K cap hit gets called up 86 days into the season (100 days remaining), on that day the team’s projected cap hit for the year goes up $497,312 ($925K/186)*100.

Cap space “accrues” over time.  A team with $500K cap room to start the year can add a player with a $1,000,000 Cap Hit halfway through season (Day 93). Due to the way the cap is calculated, a player worth $1M annually will only count for $500,000 in actual cap charge through the remainder of the year.

[Provost]

1 hour ago, CanucksJay said:

 

Is that how accrual works? 

Poolman @ 2.5m means he makes $13440 per day in a 186 day season.

Are we sure we're not accruing 13440 x (186-37) = which is 2m?

How did you get 186/37

I don't think I'm understanding accrual properly... 

 

12m @ the TDL would be amazing. 

Def worth it to add a pick and move Poolman if that's the case. 

There is no mechanism for accruing Poolman’s cap hit.  If he is on the active roster you are spending that cap and no accruing it.  It counts towards the cap just like he is playing.

 

All this is pretty foreign to us as it has been years since we could accrue cap space.

 

The way we have to accrue cap this year is to.

 

1.  Be as close to the cap as possible when we put Poolman on LTIR to preserve our LTIR overage pool.  This will mean at a full 23 man roster.

 

2.  Day 1 after putting Poolman on LTIR, we drop down to a 21-22 man roster (assuming there is someone to demote who doesn’t been to be waived or we don’t care if he gets picked up).  That is a bonus of having a local farm team.  You don’t have to carry a bunch of extra bodies in case of injury, you can call up guys on game days if someone gets the flu.  We can easily be $1.5-2.2 million under the cap each day tbid way and accrue cap space for the deadline.

3.  At the deadline or whenever we wanted to make a move, we then have the full LTIR space AND accrued cap space to fit in a player with a large salary.

 

With the cheaper scoring depth we have but also still a hole in the top four D or top six winger… it id easily conceivable that we could move Garland in season and with our LTIR and accrued cap space plus his salary we could fit in almost any player likely to be available, or even two really solid if there is some cap retention.