[SIGNING] Edmonton extends Leon Draisaitl 8 years $14 million AAV

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Bobby James said:

I think if you're Edmonton you do anything you can to sign these two guys to a long term deal. Bouchard is the other main piece and from there you build around that. 

 

Many are saying it is impossible to win with that much spent on your top 3. Sure it might be, but what does a Drai trade even look like? What is fair value for a guy who is likely in the top 3 of the NHL if you include playoff performance (def top 5).

Dryercycle sucks pucks. F the Soilers, their city and their fans. 

[fuzzy]

38 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Dryercycle sucks pucks. F the Soilers, their city and their fans. 

I hope the oilers sign him to a ridiculous contract that cripples them financially for the next decade and they wallow in mediocrity in perpetuity. A pox on their house!

[Combover]

21 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Babcock might actually be a good hire; he's one of the few guys will the balls to tell McDiver that he'll be in the press box if he doesn't start playing like a man.  He's also at least not a sex criminal like their owner and GM are.

Your right Babcocks a scumbag but hes not on the same level of scumbag as the oilers 

he’s like a B team level  scumbag  he trying hard to make the A team but doesn’t quite have what it takes.
they need a A team level scumbag.

 

mcdouche wouldn’t allow the Edmonton scumbags to hire a coach with any  level of spine  anyway. 
 

So A-team  spineless scumbag,who fits the bill?

for when the rookies magic is all gone. 

[King Heffy]

5 minutes ago, Combover said:

Your right Babcocks a scumbag but hes not on the same level of scumbag as the oilers 

he’s like a B team level  scumbag  he trying hard to make the A team but doesn’t quite have what it takes.
they need a A team level scumbag.

 

mcdouche wouldn’t allow the Edmonton scumbags to hire a coach with any  level of spine  anyway. 
 

So A-team  spineless scumbag,who fits the bill?

for when the rookies magic is all gone. 

Graham James would fit right in with the Oilers.

[Diamonds]

12 hours ago, JeremyCuddles said:

Tavares got 11mil for zero 90 point seasons. Miller has a 99 point and a 103 point season with us. On top of being leaned on for defence and physicality. He's a playoff gamer as well. 30 points in 30 playoff games with the Canucks. Also funny to note, in 6 playoff runs with Toronto Tavares has 24 playoff games and in 2 playoff runs with Vancouver Miller has 30. Not notable to the discussion, just thought it was funny. Miller's contract might be the best in hockey that isn't an ELC or bridge contract. I think the estimation that he is worth 11mil is pretty darn accurate.

Using a player that never should have been paid 11M and who broke Toronto's cap structure is not the strong argument you might think it is. Also, you can't really compare their points pre current contracts as scoring has sharply increased the past couple seasons (about .4 goals/game/team higher the past three seasons than it was during Tavares' time with the Islanders).

 

Even ignoring that he never should have been given 11M, Tavares' best season he finished 2nd in league scoring whereas Miller's best finish is 9th. Tavares was also a 2-time Hart finalist before signing with Toronto. Tavares' contract also started when he was 27 and will finish this season at age 33 whereas Miller's contract started at age 30 and will finish at age 37.

 

But again, Tavares never should have been given 11M and was overpaid the day he signed it. It was the second largest cap hit in the league at the time and I don't think anyone thought he was the second best player in the world. Tavares signing for 11M broke Toronto's cap and forced them to become a super top heavy team since Matthews and Marner needed contracts to match.

[Supreme17]

 

Ahh Summer in the hockey world, such news, much excitement.

[JeremyCuddles]

17 hours ago, Diamonds said:

Using a player that never should have been paid 11M and who broke Toronto's cap structure is not the strong argument you might think it is. Also, you can't really compare their points pre current contracts as scoring has sharply increased the past couple seasons (about .4 goals/game/team higher the past three seasons than it was during Tavares' time with the Islanders).

 

Even ignoring that he never should have been given 11M, Tavares' best season he finished 2nd in league scoring whereas Miller's best finish is 9th. Tavares was also a 2-time Hart finalist before signing with Toronto. Tavares' contract also started when he was 27 and will finish this season at age 33 whereas Miller's contract started at age 30 and will finish at age 37.

 

But again, Tavares never should have been given 11M and was overpaid the day he signed it. It was the second largest cap hit in the league at the time and I don't think anyone thought he was the second best player in the world. Tavares signing for 11M broke Toronto's cap and forced them to become a super top heavy team since Matthews and Marner needed contracts to match.

Not sure if you're new, but yeah. That's how free agency works.

[AnthonyG]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:17 PM, King Heffy said:

Babcock might actually be a good hire; he's one of the few guys will the balls to tell McDiver that he'll be in the press box if he doesn't start playing like a man.  He's also at least not a sex criminal like their owner and GM are.

Babcock is the biggest piece of shit.

He would be a great fit and he could coach a piece of shit like Kane to be a bigger piece of shit and together the whole organization will be the complete pile of shit

[The Lock]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:17 PM, King Heffy said:

Babcock might actually be a good hire; he's one of the few guys will the balls to tell McDiver that he'll be in the press box if he doesn't start playing like a man.  He's also at least not a sex criminal like their owner and GM are.

 

I'm sure the Oilers totally need a coach to ask for the players' texting history to send to a GM who's probably looking to cover up and new issues that arise.

[IBatch]

On 7/31/2024 at 11:09 AM, AnthonyG said:

Tenure did nothing for Horvat.
Chances are guaranteed he’s gone if he wants to get paid. Incase you missed Alvin’s presser on Zadorov, he made it clear he can’t overpay 1 guy. So Boeser either gets with the program or he’s outta here. Especially if someone like Lekkermaki pops off.

So far Allvins overpaid or struck out on Ilya Mikheyev,  Kuzemenko, and was willing to do  Lindholm (7 x 7, analytic's priced him at 6.8 x 5, good luck Boston!) and is going to be under the micro-scope for EP.   Brock worked out his second year and probably will again this year, otherwise (and yes it understandable why) was making UFA money for what he produced. 

 

As far as EP goes,  Allvin was damned he didn't sign him, and sure taxes played into it.  He does still have an out this year (not expecting a great return if he goes there).     Brock as a whole, was  overpaid (paid like a UFA not an RFA, a premium on potential).    One year he's made up for some of that.    Not so sure he won't sign a deal that doesn't look much different than his current one, plus the raise for cap.   So 7.25-7.5 x 8 maybe.   And Allvin isn't going to open up the bank account based on one great season/playoffs  either.     

 

Do get we are in a really tough market tax wise.   We have to accept that disadvantage, when looking at what other players sign for.    Even bringing all those things into account, EP got a massive payday.    He's not Austin Mathew's.   And he's not McKinnon, Crosby, Draisatl or Crosby either.   He's shown periods of time he can be a top five C.    Also we paid for a couple RFA years...wasn't all UFA.   

 

EP should have lots of time to prove his worth.   So far, from where i'm sitting anyways,  the fan base is going to lose patience pretty quickly if he's not knocking off 100 point plus seasons.  That's what he's getting paid to do.   De-Brusk is a legit top six winger.   Guys who get paid that sort of dough,  are paid to carry a line.    EPs done that once.   Millers done it too, actually have Millers Green/Bruce efforts > then EPs everyone is playing for points season.   The fact Miller played with everyone and their dog that year, backs it up.    Miller is a perfect example of how contracts used to work.   Not a fan of the new system, that gives out 3rd contract money for 2nd contracts, and weighs potential so heavily.   

 

Aside from these deals, Allvin has managed extremely well.   All of them a little under.   Especially Miller, who did the noble thing and saved 7 for Horvat.    Every deal was under this summer.   EP, he didn't take a discount.   

Edited August 14 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:07 AM, Diamonds said:

Using a player that never should have been paid 11M and who broke Toronto's cap structure is not the strong argument you might think it is. Also, you can't really compare their points pre current contracts as scoring has sharply increased the past couple seasons (about .4 goals/game/team higher the past three seasons than it was during Tavares' time with the Islanders).

 

Even ignoring that he never should have been given 11M, Tavares' best season he finished 2nd in league scoring whereas Miller's best finish is 9th. Tavares was also a 2-time Hart finalist before signing with Toronto. Tavares' contract also started when he was 27 and will finish this season at age 33 whereas Miller's contract started at age 30 and will finish at age 37.

 

But again, Tavares never should have been given 11M and was overpaid the day he signed it. It was the second largest cap hit in the league at the time and I don't think anyone thought he was the second best player in the world. Tavares signing for 11M broke Toronto's cap and forced them to become a super top heavy team since Matthews and Marner needed contracts to match.

Look at what Tavares made before his money deal.   That's what RFA deals used to look like.  Also he turned down a couple million per from SJ.    Stamkos is the real case study, turned down way more cap money from SJ and TO, but ended up taking home virtually the same in TB net overall pay.  His deal was actually structured 100% on the bottom line.  36.6% versus 53% and change adds up.  JT Miller lost over 500k each of his years with us, from the one he signed with TB.   Dubas may have looked to have broke things.   Things have been lopsided and broken for quite sometime. 

 

 

 

Edited August 14 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 8/2/2024 at 1:01 AM, Provost said:

That was the hope and he lived up to it.  
 

The contract length and his age meant he is supposed to outperform it in the first half and he is likely to underperform it in the last half.

 

Early cap savings in return for extra contract years.  That is the normal formula when signing 30 year olds.

 

 

 

 

 

Except it would have be just fine at a PPG and later 50-60 points.   Even with this "formula" he's far exceeded expectations.   How's Kadri and Horvat doing anyways?   Or do we even want to check.    

 

Never got the Horvat versus Miller thing,  Miller took less to allow Horvat rook to sign, a million less at least.     Also preferred his game from the get go. 

Edited August 14 by IBatch

[old guy]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall now...lol. A lot of Maalox shooters in the head office. Hell, probably just buying by the case and passing around the bottle!

[AnthonyG]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

So far Allvins overpaid or struck out on Ilya Mikheyev,  Kuzemenko, and was willing to do  Lindholm (7 x 7, analytic's priced him at 6.8 x 5, good luck Boston!) and is going to be under the micro-scope for EP.   Brock worked out his second year and probably will again this year, otherwise (and yes it understandable why) was making UFA money for what he produced. 

 

As far as EP goes,  Allvin was damned he didn't sign him, and sure taxes played into it.  He does still have an out this year (not expecting a great return if he goes there).     Brock as a whole, was  overpaid (paid like a UFA not an RFA, a premium on potential).    One year he's made up for some of that.    Not so sure he won't sign a deal that doesn't look much different than his current one, plus the raise for cap.   So 7.25-7.5 x 8 maybe.   And Allvin isn't going to open up the bank account based on one great season/playoffs  either.     

 

Do get we are in a really tough market tax wise.   We have to accept that disadvantage, when looking at what other players sign for.    Even bringing all those things into account, EP got a massive payday.    He's not Austin Mathew's.   And he's not McKinnon, Crosby, Draisatl or Crosby either.   He's shown periods of time he can be a top five C.    Also we paid for a couple RFA years...wasn't all UFA.   

 

EP should have lots of time to prove his worth.   So far, from where i'm sitting anyways,  the fan base is going to lose patience pretty quickly if he's not knocking off 100 point plus seasons.  That's what he's getting paid to do.   De-Brusk is a legit top six winger.   Guys who get paid that sort of dough,  are paid to carry a line.    EPs done that once.   Millers done it too, actually have Millers Green/Bruce efforts > then EPs everyone is playing for points season.   The fact Miller played with everyone and their dog that year, backs it up.    Miller is a perfect example of how contracts used to work.   Not a fan of the new system, that gives out 3rd contract money for 2nd contracts, and weighs potential so heavily.   

 

Aside from these deals, Allvin has managed extremely well.   All of them a little under.   Especially Miller, who did the noble thing and saved 7 for Horvat.    Every deal was under this summer.   EP, he didn't take a discount.   

Well to be fair Allvin overpaid in an attempt to create a more competitive roster based on how the 2021-22 season finished. However now that we are considered a contender, overpayment goes out the door and pay cuts are handed out to those who want to win.

Allvin didn’t overpay or strike out on Kuzmenko, he struck a goald mine and didn’t cash in on it. Kuzmenko’s biggest issue is his skating. From the get go I was never sold on him and called for trade while his value was high at the rate he was producing. His stride is too choppy and he’s a bit of a hay bailer. Skill and shot, is fucking unreal but the thing that causes forwards to decline is their skating and in his prime age, his skating was already below average. Allvin fucked up and held on when he should have moved Kuzmenko and kept Horvat and could have still acquired Hronek in return. Traded away a pretty damn respectable two way C who can put up 30 goals and kept Kuzmenko, only to sell at rock bottom on Kuzmenko and then go and reacquire a 2way C. We would still have assets today to make an even bigger push at the TDL. So to me, this was pretty bad asset management imo. I didn’t like it at the time and really don’t like it now. That being said though, Allvin has pivoted quite quickly and recovered quite nicely in the offseason. 

Who knows if Horvat would have taken 7.5 or even 8mil to stay at home, after JT took 8, I would like to think Horvat would follow suit.

 

Matthew’s is a 1 dimensional player
EP just hit his prime, Mackinnon is at the peak and plateau of his prime…. Mackinnon took some time to get up and running and has had far more star players around him. Pettersson has been putting up goals from the moment he arrived, Mackinnon took 5 seasons to break the 25 goal mark. Pettersson has had to deal with some shitty linemates and let’s be real here, he’s playing a full 200ft game and keeping up with the points with a lot of 1 star players. Give the guy some talent around him and more favourable zone starts and watch the points pile up. 
Pettersson is not only more of a two way player, but he is deployed as one as well. What I mean by that is Pettersson works hard in both ends, harder than Mackinnon and because he has that determination to get the puck back he is given nearly 50/50 zone start distribution, where as Mackinnon is a 60/40 distribution. Pettersson has more impact on possession than Mackinnon as well. For example at 5v5

Mackinnon’s last 3 seasons

2021-22 60.6%oZS  50.4%CORSI

2022-23 66.7%oZS  56.1% CORSI

2023-24 63.2%oZS  56.5%CORSI

 

Pettersson 

2021-22 58.5%oZS  50.4%CORSI
2022-23 53.3%oZS  50.5%CORSI
2023-24 53.3%oZS  52.8%CORSI

 

There is a pretty noticeable difference in CORSI vs zone starts for Mackinnon and pretty small differences for Pettersson outside of the 2021-22 season.

So I go and look at giveaways and takeaways.

 

Mackinnon 218GP

2021-22 37TKA 56GVA

2022-23 43TKA 47GVA

2023-24 42TKA 82GVA

 

Pettersson 242GP

2021-22 56TKA 39GVA

2022-23 56TKA 47GVA

2023-24 50TKA 30GVA 

 

Pettersson has 69 fewer giveaways in 24 more games played and also 40 more takeaways. Less favourable zone starts, worse linemates AND kills penalties. Pettersson spent 112mins short handed last season compared to Mackinnons 5.2minutes. Mackinnon has 268mins TOI short handed in his entire career and 150 of those minutes were in 1 season 8 years ago. Pettersson has 260ish minutes short handed the last 2 seasons combined. Pettersson does everything, he absolutely took a home town discount if you ask me. The kid can spend 140mins short handed 13minsTOI at 5v5 with a 3.3% favourable offensive zone start over the dzone…and get 100pts.

Dryercycle as @Alflives calls him, Mackinnon, Matthew’s and Crosby do not do that. These guys get more ice time 5v5 so yea there stats should be inflated.

Pettersson averaged 13.41minTOI 5v5

Mackinnon 17.11

Crosby 15.36

Dryercycle 15.45

Matthews 15.49

 

2mins minimum more at 5v5…. No PK time and almost all over 60%oZS. Just think of how much more Pettersson could produce with those sorts of advantages.

 

 

 

As for the taxes….. they really need to have pro-rated caps across the league based off the tax markets and have contracts in % and not $ so that it’s transferable across the league which would make it more appealing to waive their NTC or NMC. Your pay would be the same no matter where you got shipped to and it would be fair across the league that no team had advantages because of taxes.

 

 

 

Edited August 14 by AnthonyG

[Devron]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Well to be fair Allvin overpaid in an attempt to create a more competitive roster based on how the 2021-22 season finished. However now that we are considered a contender, overpayment goes out the door and pay cuts are handed out to those who want to win.

Allvin didn’t overpay or strike out on Kuzmenko, he struck a goald mine and didn’t cash in on it. Kuzmenko’s biggest issue is his skating. From the get go I was never sold on him and called for trade while his value was high at the rate he was producing. His stride is too choppy and he’s a bit of a hay bailer. Skill and shot, is fucking unreal but the thing that causes forwards to decline is their skating and in his prime age, his skating was already below average. Allvin fucked up and held on when he should have moved Kuzmenko and kept Horvat and could have still acquired Hronek in return. Traded away a pretty damn respectable two way C who can put up 30 goals and kept Kuzmenko, only to sell at rock bottom on Kuzmenko and then go and reacquire a 2way C. We would still have assets today to make an even bigger push at the TDL. So to me, this was pretty bad asset management imo. I didn’t like it at the time and really don’t like it now. That being said though, Allvin has pivoted quite quickly and recovered quite nicely in the offseason. 

Who knows if Horvat would have taken 7.5 or even 8mil to stay at home, after JT took 8, I would like to think Horvat would follow suit.

 

Matthew’s is a 1 dimensional player
EP just hit his prime, Mackinnon is at the peak and plateau of his prime…. Mackinnon took some time to get up and running and has had far more star players around him. Pettersson has been putting up goals from the moment he arrived, Mackinnon took 5 seasons to break the 25 goal mark. Pettersson has had to deal with some shitty linemates and let’s be real here, he’s playing a full 200ft game and keeping up with the points with a lot of 1 star players. Give the guy some talent around him and more favourable zone starts and watch the points pile up. 
Pettersson is not only more of a two way player, but he is deployed as one as well. What I mean by that is Pettersson works hard in both ends, harder than Mackinnon and because he has that determination to get the puck back he is given nearly 50/50 zone start distribution, where as Mackinnon is a 60/40 distribution. Pettersson has more impact on possession than Mackinnon as well. For example at 5v5

Mackinnon’s last 3 seasons

2021-22 60.6%oZS  50.4%CORSI

2022-23 66.7%oZS  56.1% CORSI

2023-24 63.2%oZS  56.5%CORSI

 

Pettersson 

2021-22 58.5%oZS  50.4%CORSI
2022-23 53.3%oZS  50.5%CORSI
2023-24 53.3%oZS  52.8%CORSI

 

There is a pretty noticeable difference in CORSI vs zone starts for Mackinnon and pretty small differences for Pettersson outside of the 2021-22 season.

So I go and look at giveaways and takeaways.

 

Mackinnon 218GP

2021-22 37TKA 56GVA

2022-23 43TKA 47GVA

2023-24 42TKA 82GVA

 

Pettersson 242GP

2021-22 56TKA 39GVA

2022-23 56TKA 47GVA

2023-24 50TKA 30GVA 

 

Pettersson has 69 fewer giveaways in 24 more games played and also 40 more takeaways. Less favourable zone starts, worse linemates AND kills penalties. Pettersson spent 112mins short handed last season compared to Mackinnons 5.2minutes. Mackinnon has 268mins TOI short handed in his entire career and 150 of those minutes were in 1 season 8 years ago. Pettersson has 260ish minutes short handed the last 2 seasons combined. Pettersson does everything, he absolutely took a home town discount if you ask me. The kid can spend 140mins short handed 13minsTOI at 5v5 with a 3.3% favourable offensive zone start over the dzone…and get 100pts.

Dryercycle as @Alflives calls him, Mackinnon, Matthew’s and Crosby do not do that. These guys get more ice time 5v5 so yea there stats should be inflated.

Pettersson averaged 13.41minTOI 5v5

Mackinnon 17.11

Crosby 15.36

Dryercycle 15.45

Matthews 15.49

 

2mins minimum more at 5v5…. No PK time and almost all over 60%oZS. Just think of how much more Pettersson could produce with those sorts of advantages.

 

 

 

As for the taxes….. they really need to have pro-rated caps across the league based off the tax markets and have contracts in % and not $ so that it’s transferable across the league which would make it more appealing to waive their NTC or NMC. Your pay would be the same no matter where you got shipped to and it would be fair across the league that no team had advantages because of taxes.

 

 

 

So basically Petey is the man and people should stop shitting on him. Cant wait for the season! 

[Devron]

On 8/6/2024 at 5:04 PM, fuzzy said:

I hope the oilers sign him to a ridiculous contract that cripples them financially for the next decade and they wallow in mediocrity in perpetuity. A pox on their house!

Mmm I love the sound of that 

[EastCoastExpress]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Well to be fair Allvin overpaid in an attempt to create a more competitive roster based on how the 2021-22 season finished. However now that we are considered a contender, overpayment goes out the door and pay cuts are handed out to those who want to win.

Allvin didn’t overpay or strike out on Kuzmenko, he struck a goald mine and didn’t cash in on it. Kuzmenko’s biggest issue is his skating. From the get go I was never sold on him and called for trade while his value was high at the rate he was producing. His stride is too choppy and he’s a bit of a hay bailer. Skill and shot, is fucking unreal but the thing that causes forwards to decline is their skating and in his prime age, his skating was already below average. Allvin fucked up and held on when he should have moved Kuzmenko and kept Horvat and could have still acquired Hronek in return. Traded away a pretty damn respectable two way C who can put up 30 goals and kept Kuzmenko, only to sell at rock bottom on Kuzmenko and then go and reacquire a 2way C. We would still have assets today to make an even bigger push at the TDL. So to me, this was pretty bad asset management imo. I didn’t like it at the time and really don’t like it now. That being said though, Allvin has pivoted quite quickly and recovered quite nicely in the offseason. 

Who knows if Horvat would have taken 7.5 or even 8mil to stay at home, after JT took 8, I would like to think Horvat would follow suit.

 

Matthew’s is a 1 dimensional player
EP just hit his prime, Mackinnon is at the peak and plateau of his prime…. Mackinnon took some time to get up and running and has had far more star players around him. Pettersson has been putting up goals from the moment he arrived, Mackinnon took 5 seasons to break the 25 goal mark. Pettersson has had to deal with some shitty linemates and let’s be real here, he’s playing a full 200ft game and keeping up with the points with a lot of 1 star players. Give the guy some talent around him and more favourable zone starts and watch the points pile up. 
Pettersson is not only more of a two way player, but he is deployed as one as well. What I mean by that is Pettersson works hard in both ends, harder than Mackinnon and because he has that determination to get the puck back he is given nearly 50/50 zone start distribution, where as Mackinnon is a 60/40 distribution. Pettersson has more impact on possession than Mackinnon as well. For example at 5v5

Mackinnon’s last 3 seasons

2021-22 60.6%oZS  50.4%CORSI

2022-23 66.7%oZS  56.1% CORSI

2023-24 63.2%oZS  56.5%CORSI

 

Pettersson 

2021-22 58.5%oZS  50.4%CORSI
2022-23 53.3%oZS  50.5%CORSI
2023-24 53.3%oZS  52.8%CORSI

 

There is a pretty noticeable difference in CORSI vs zone starts for Mackinnon and pretty small differences for Pettersson outside of the 2021-22 season.

So I go and look at giveaways and takeaways.

 

Mackinnon 218GP

2021-22 37TKA 56GVA

2022-23 43TKA 47GVA

2023-24 42TKA 82GVA

 

Pettersson 242GP

2021-22 56TKA 39GVA

2022-23 56TKA 47GVA

2023-24 50TKA 30GVA 

 

Pettersson has 69 fewer giveaways in 24 more games played and also 40 more takeaways. Less favourable zone starts, worse linemates AND kills penalties. Pettersson spent 112mins short handed last season compared to Mackinnons 5.2minutes. Mackinnon has 268mins TOI short handed in his entire career and 150 of those minutes were in 1 season 8 years ago. Pettersson has 260ish minutes short handed the last 2 seasons combined. Pettersson does everything, he absolutely took a home town discount if you ask me. The kid can spend 140mins short handed 13minsTOI at 5v5 with a 3.3% favourable offensive zone start over the dzone…and get 100pts.

Dryercycle as @Alflives calls him, Mackinnon, Matthew’s and Crosby do not do that. These guys get more ice time 5v5 so yea there stats should be inflated.

Pettersson averaged 13.41minTOI 5v5

Mackinnon 17.11

Crosby 15.36

Dryercycle 15.45

Matthews 15.49

 

2mins minimum more at 5v5…. No PK time and almost all over 60%oZS. Just think of how much more Pettersson could produce with those sorts of advantages.

 

 

 

As for the taxes….. they really need to have pro-rated caps across the league based off the tax markets and have contracts in % and not $ so that it’s transferable across the league which would make it more appealing to waive their NTC or NMC. Your pay would be the same no matter where you got shipped to and it would be fair across the league that no team had advantages because of taxes.

 

 

 

yep

[EastCoastExpress]

10 hours ago, IBatch said:

Except it would have be just fine at a PPG and later 50-60 points.   Even with this "formula" he's far exceeded expectations.   How's Kadri and Horvat doing anyways?   Or do we even want to check.    

 

Never got the Horvat versus Miller thing,  Miller took less to allow Horvat rook to sign, a million less at least.     Also preferred his game from the get go. 

to be fair, if Horvat was with Petey again, they would both be worth their respective contracts.

8.5 for Bo seemed crazy 2 years ago but now it would be pretty on target, and maybe even great in the next couple years.

Maybe we can get him back?

[bh90]

3 hours ago, EastCoastExpress said:

to be fair, if Horvat was with Petey again, they would both be worth their respective contracts.

8.5 for Bo seemed crazy 2 years ago but now it would be pretty on target, and maybe even great in the next couple years.

Maybe we can get him back?

Horvat can go eat a bag of pucks. The guy had no fire or spark in hum

 

Nice guys don't always win, just saying

[Madskillz]

5 hours ago, EastCoastExpress said:

to be fair, if Horvat was with Petey again, they would both be worth their respective contracts.

8.5 for Bo seemed crazy 2 years ago but now it would be pretty on target, and maybe even great in the next couple years.

Maybe we can get him back?

Debrusk will be a better fit for 3 mill less per year.  Bo has size and doesn't use it to punish other players he's 220lbish, Miller at close to the same weight is an absolute beast playing same position winning 55+% on faceoff.  Miller should be worth easily 10 mil + he's a physical center who wins faceoff can shutdown other teams best lines, he's showing year after year hes working hard in the off-season and coming in good shape always improving his game.  Ryan Kesler even said Miller is a player he would want on his side going to war, this guy is special and help the younger guys like Debrusk, Podz to play with an edge, good defensively, will be key for us having a chance to win a cup.

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Well to be fair Allvin overpaid in an attempt to create a more competitive roster based on how the 2021-22 season finished. However now that we are considered a contender, overpayment goes out the door and pay cuts are handed out to those who want to win.

Allvin didn’t overpay or strike out on Kuzmenko, he struck a goald mine and didn’t cash in on it. Kuzmenko’s biggest issue is his skating. From the get go I was never sold on him and called for trade while his value was high at the rate he was producing. His stride is too choppy and he’s a bit of a hay bailer. Skill and shot, is fucking unreal but the thing that causes forwards to decline is their skating and in his prime age, his skating was already below average. Allvin fucked up and held on when he should have moved Kuzmenko and kept Horvat and could have still acquired Hronek in return. Traded away a pretty damn respectable two way C who can put up 30 goals and kept Kuzmenko, only to sell at rock bottom on Kuzmenko and then go and reacquire a 2way C. We would still have assets today to make an even bigger push at the TDL. So to me, this was pretty bad asset management imo. I didn’t like it at the time and really don’t like it now. That being said though, Allvin has pivoted quite quickly and recovered quite nicely in the offseason. 

Who knows if Horvat would have taken 7.5 or even 8mil to stay at home, after JT took 8, I would like to think Horvat would follow suit.

 

Matthew’s is a 1 dimensional player
EP just hit his prime, Mackinnon is at the peak and plateau of his prime…. Mackinnon took some time to get up and running and has had far more star players around him. Pettersson has been putting up goals from the moment he arrived, Mackinnon took 5 seasons to break the 25 goal mark. Pettersson has had to deal with some shitty linemates and let’s be real here, he’s playing a full 200ft game and keeping up with the points with a lot of 1 star players. Give the guy some talent around him and more favourable zone starts and watch the points pile up. 
Pettersson is not only more of a two way player, but he is deployed as one as well. What I mean by that is Pettersson works hard in both ends, harder than Mackinnon and because he has that determination to get the puck back he is given nearly 50/50 zone start distribution, where as Mackinnon is a 60/40 distribution. Pettersson has more impact on possession than Mackinnon as well. For example at 5v5

Mackinnon’s last 3 seasons

2021-22 60.6%oZS  50.4%CORSI

2022-23 66.7%oZS  56.1% CORSI

2023-24 63.2%oZS  56.5%CORSI

 

Pettersson 

2021-22 58.5%oZS  50.4%CORSI
2022-23 53.3%oZS  50.5%CORSI
2023-24 53.3%oZS  52.8%CORSI

 

There is a pretty noticeable difference in CORSI vs zone starts for Mackinnon and pretty small differences for Pettersson outside of the 2021-22 season.

So I go and look at giveaways and takeaways.

 

Mackinnon 218GP

2021-22 37TKA 56GVA

2022-23 43TKA 47GVA

2023-24 42TKA 82GVA

 

Pettersson 242GP

2021-22 56TKA 39GVA

2022-23 56TKA 47GVA

2023-24 50TKA 30GVA 

 

Pettersson has 69 fewer giveaways in 24 more games played and also 40 more takeaways. Less favourable zone starts, worse linemates AND kills penalties. Pettersson spent 112mins short handed last season compared to Mackinnons 5.2minutes. Mackinnon has 268mins TOI short handed in his entire career and 150 of those minutes were in 1 season 8 years ago. Pettersson has 260ish minutes short handed the last 2 seasons combined. Pettersson does everything, he absolutely took a home town discount if you ask me. The kid can spend 140mins short handed 13minsTOI at 5v5 with a 3.3% favourable offensive zone start over the dzone…and get 100pts.

Dryercycle as @Alflives calls him, Mackinnon, Matthew’s and Crosby do not do that. These guys get more ice time 5v5 so yea there stats should be inflated.

Pettersson averaged 13.41minTOI 5v5

Mackinnon 17.11

Crosby 15.36

Dryercycle 15.45

Matthews 15.49

 

2mins minimum more at 5v5…. No PK time and almost all over 60%oZS. Just think of how much more Pettersson could produce with those sorts of advantages.

 

 

 

As for the taxes….. they really need to have pro-rated caps across the league based off the tax markets and have contracts in % and not $ so that it’s transferable across the league which would make it more appealing to waive their NTC or NMC. Your pay would be the same no matter where you got shipped to and it would be fair across the league that no team had advantages because of taxes.

 

 

 

Mathew's won the Hart (deservedly) at 24, and runner up at 23.  Has already scored  368 goals in 562 games.   Pearson award too.   Last year he was 3rd in Selke voting, while winning the Richard with an eye popping 69 goals.   He's already scored 60 once before as well, something Ovi managed once in his career (also at a young age, 22 or 23 can't remember).    Right now he's pacing the greatest goal scoring centers all-time plus 31 last two years in a row, which is a pretty good indication he's having an awesome impact 5 x 5.  Plus 140 his career.    If you think EP is the better player then that's not how the rest of the league feels, the experts that vote on this, only a few are from Toronto.  Past 5 years, AS 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 (in no particular order).  649 points as well.   The only slight on Mathew's is that he hasn't led his team in the post season.   Not that they've had an easy go of that, usually Boston or TB lol, would be like us facing COL or Dallas in the first round the past 5 years.    

 

As for EP, has managed AS5 his 100 point year, and AS7 (or the 5th and 7th best center in the league) twice in six seasons.  170 goals and 412 points in 407 games.   Plus 58.   Averages close to a minute less in ice time.   Both guys are on the number one unit,  EPs has some PK time, where Tavares takes that on (rightly so) in TO, other centers take the first unit PK.   Miller and EP have had some great short handed plays for sure.   

 

Won't even get into McKinnon, that's simply silly.   The guys been the runner up to Crosby until he wasn't, most of his career, and then McDavid as .   And an absolute beast in the post season.   So not sure why cherry picking a few stats matters much.   EP is now getting paid to produce like them, MckInnon doesn't need Rantanen (still kills it on his own) which was my point.  If he isn't getting 100 points plus a season, there will be blow back.    McKinnon scores with or without Rantanen.   Last seven years, AS 1, 2,2,3,3,3,3,6!   Hart, Pearson this year perennial Hart candidate, runner up etc.  He's why they won a cup more than any other player (cap hit, plus his on ice play ... some of those runs was scoring at over 2 points per game).   He also is on the ice a lot more.  Last year almost 23 minutes!   That's Gretzky territory. 

 

 

   Mathew's had spent a lot of time with Marner.    Those guys haven't figured out how to win in the post season, however if you watched TB cup team versus TO, the difference in that series was Vasilevsky.   The stats were virtually identical.  Zone time.  Shots on net.   Quality scoring chances.   One of the best series that post season.   TO has had some very bad luck when it comes to whom they play.   And have set club records with the Mathew's teams as well.   Bad luck.    Which is fun as a Canucks fan.  

 

EP had an awful playoffs.   Lindholm was a much more effective player, second to Joshua in hits, and they weren't love taps.   And the eye test certainly wasn't in EPs favour despite the stat line.   One PP goal was it?    Ouch.

 

Draisatl.  He's the other center that's bumped McKinnon once.   Hart, Pearson, Art Ross, AS 1,2,3,4,8,8 - (last year no votes, despite 41 goals and 106 points) past 7 years, aside from his 41 goals all of them over 50 goal seasons or on pace for over 50 goals, and consecutive 106-128 pace.. This includes covid! 347 goals, 850 points in 719 games.   Also a playoff beast (not this year after Myers hit, but in the past, year before that was on pace to shatter that PHI guys record in a single playoffs).  

 

So yes.   Stand by it, EP is getting paid like a top five center.   So far he's produced line one, once.   And his post season stuff is definitely up for debate. 

 

This isn't meant to pick on EP.   I'd rather he score 90 and not cheat defensively, the  110 and cheat.   And do recognize McDavid is a perimeter player, Draisatl less so, but both are whiners.    As far as producing goes they also feast on the PP...that said if EP was so good, why doesn't he have 5-7 years of consecutive years of 50 to 69 goals scored?    It's pretty safe to say, he's got the potential. 

 

Im well aware of the context around Ilya Mikheyev, watched enough of him out east before the signing, also watched enough of Hyman.   Hyman was their glue guy, did all the little things right, especially going to the net, TO fans loved him.   Mikheyev had spot duty in the top six and was ok, nobody wanted him at Allvins cap hit.    Our PK was a disaster, that for sure was part of it, as was his speed and decent ability to finish.   Still it was a big contract, and if you knew, you'd know he was also playing with their fab four a lot his final season...when Hyman left.   Of course his stats would spike.    Also in Alvin's defense, he was going to play with another elite center in EP.   

 

As for Kuznemko, there weren't many posters who didn't feel his production was going to take a hit.   His shooting percentage was Bossy/ Greztky like.    Not sustainable.   No prior history in the KHL either.    Skilled yes.    It was a reasonable deal too.   Only two years.  
 

Allvin is good at cleaning up his own and his predecessor's messes.    Have high hopes that DeBrusk can do for us, what Hyman has done for EDM.   Don't expect 50 goals from him, but 35-40 is a possibility if EP and him gain some chemistry.    

Edited August 15 by IBatch

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Madskillz said:

Debrusk will be a better fit for 3 mill less per year.  Bo has size and doesn't use it to punish other players he's 220lbish, Miller at close to the same weight is an absolute beast playing same position winning 55+% on faceoff.  Miller should be worth easily 10 mil + he's a physical center who wins faceoff can shutdown other teams best lines, he's showing year after year hes working hard in the off-season and coming in good shape always improving his game.  Ryan Kesler even said Miller is a player he would want on his side going to war, this guy is special and help the younger guys like Debrusk, Podz to play with an edge, good defensively, will be key for us having a chance to win a cup.

All JT Miller has done since arriving, is embrace his opportunity to play top six top line minutes and especially since Tochett, the match-ups too.   No thanks to Horvat, yes he's a very good player, but not a fan of his passivity and the fact he didn't really use his size to hit.    Maybe Tochett would have also got through to him.    DeBrusk won't take long to become a fan favourite.   He hits, and plays like a bull-dog within the rules.   Know Lindholm was their first choice, and had hopes they'd move EP to the wing and unleash those two.    At the cap hit and age difference, De-Brusk certainly won't have to fight it.   30/30 is a win at his cap hit.    Curious who the third man will be.   

 

As for JT Miller, he's already one of my favourite all-time Canucks, and he's heading towards the ROH, possibly even jersey retirement if we can manage some serious damage or a cup before his contact is up, and he's a big part of that..also after 11 years knocking on wood for health, will be right up there as far as our all-time centers go.   And right now, is our most important forward.    Thank the lord, he's also a durable type, often wondered if Horvats unwillingness to drop the gloves and make a hit, had to do with self preservation.   Linden and Smyl for sure didn't have that.   Glad QHs was the choice for our Captain.   Miller would have been just fine as well. 

Edited August 15 by IBatch

[kettlevalley]

Canuck all time points is going to get interesting to watch for current players this year.  Petey leads the way and is 11th.  Miller 14th.  Brock 18th and Quinn 23rd.  Two will be in the top 10 by season end.  All 4 will be top ten in two seasons.  Only 10 points between Miller and Petey.  Might be Petey Quinn Sedin Sedin Miller Brock Naslund someday.  

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, kettlevalley said:

Canuck all time points is going to get interesting to watch for current players this year.  Petey leads the way and is 11th.  Miller 14th.  Brock 18th and Quinn 23rd.  Two will be in the top 10 by season end.  All 4 will be top ten in two seasons.  Only 10 points between Miller and Petey.  Might be Petey Quinn Sedin Sedin Miller Brock Naslund someday.  

Brock is 9  behind Kesler in 180 or so less games, and BoMo 70 or so games.   Not suggesting he was as good as either guy either.    Just goes to show how much folks don't appreciate players when they are younger.  As for EP, if he finishes his contract and does what we all hope he will do, for sure has a chance at numero uno.   QHs won't take long to pass Edler, but will say that bar was set really low, and we've had better D's for sure that played a lot let games.    I highly doubt QHs will overtake the Sedins, but yes could be EP, Sedin. Sedin,  Miller, one day ... until we see QHs sign his next deal would leave him out.     One thing i'd really like to see, is Lindens post season records broken.   Also the fact JT Miller has passed guys in five years that were around for a decade or so... he doesn't get the love he deserves.  Sure glad he was part of this years All-Star game, considering both Brock and EP have already been, kind of a joke really.   JT Miller leads the way, and by quite some distance, of any Canuck the past five seasons.   As for QHs even if he just finishes his current deal, likely set an assist record that will be awfully hard to break. 

 

Edit:  People still pump Mogilny's tires, rightly so to a degree.   JT Miller has 94 more points in 52 games.  Plus 44 versus plus 24.   Not that Mogilny wasn't playing in a much rougher era though because he was.    Just hope he's going to get some respect.   He's certainly earned it. 

Edited August 15 by IBatch

[Devron]

14 hours ago, EastCoastExpress said:

to be fair, if Horvat was with Petey again, they would both be worth their respective contracts.

8.5 for Bo seemed crazy 2 years ago but now it would be pretty on target, and maybe even great in the next couple years.

Maybe we can get him back?

It’s not a bad deal, pretty average. Could have got him for 7 that previous summer. One of my favourite players ever. The fit was no longer however. We evolved