[SIGNING] Edmonton extends Leon Draisaitl 8 years $14 million AAV

[AnthonyG]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Mathew's won the Hart (deservedly) at 24, and runner up at 23.  Has already scored  368 goals in 562 games.   Pearson award too.   Last year he was 3rd in Selke voting, while winning the Richard with an eye popping 69 goals.   

Let me ask you this, how many players have won the hart on 

1) a rebuilding team

2) a non-playoff team

Trophies like the Hart, Selke and Norris are reflective of the teams success as well. The teams success has a large impact on one single players impact on those votes. Unless a player has an absolute mind blowing season on a bottom feeder team ala Karlsson on SJS. 

Ottawa made the playoffs in 2011-12 and Karlsson won the Norris. The following season he plays 17 games and finishes 18th in Norris votes. What? 2013-14 Karlsson puts up 20 goals 54 assists 74 points, Ottawa misses the playoffs....Karlsson 7th in Norris votes. 2014-15 21 goal 45 assists 66pts wins the Norris and guess what Ottawa made the playoffs. 

The ebbs and flows of team success translates to recognition.

2022-23 Karlsson put up 105 fucking points, he clearly was winning the Norris, no one could come close. But the Hart... went to a playoff team. Karlsson was literally the definition of what that award is. "Most valuable player to his team"  he was the most valuable player to his team by a southern country mile. Yet doesnt even get top 3 recognition.

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

If you think EP is the better player then that's not how the rest of the league feels, the experts that vote on this, only a few are from Toronto.  Past 5 years, AS 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 (in no particular order).  649 points as well.   The only slight on Mathew's is that he hasn't led his team in the post season. 

Matthews is the higher goal scorer, Pettersson is the more all around 2 way player. Matthews has a 16.2S% Pettersson has a 16.6S%. Is Matthews really the better shooter? He's a higher volume shooter, but puts up slightly lower S% than Pettersson. 3966 shots vs 1998 shots. Double the shots double the goals.

John Scott went to the Allstar game. Its votes for fans favorite players they want to see. The allstar game doesnt mean shit imo. Matthews hasnt shown the drive and determination to win. Pettersson gives it everything and thats why he is part of the PK because he is competitive.

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

As for EP, has managed AS5 his 100 point year, and AS7 (or the 5th and 7th best center in the league) twice in six seasons.  170 goals and 412 points in 407 games.   Plus 58.   Averages close to a minute less in ice time.   Both guys are on the number one unit,  EPs has some PK time, where Tavares takes that on (rightly so) in TO, other centers take the first unit PK.   Miller and EP have had some great short handed plays for sure.    

averages a minute of TOTAL icetime less, however he plays 13 minutes TOI as I showed you and Matthews plays nearly 2 minutes more 5v5 plus gets all the PP time and no PK time PLUS far more offensive zone starts. Thats a HUGE advantage if you are going to weigh stats you need to factor in all the advantages/disadvantages. Matthews is the volume shooter, Pettersson is the playmaker. I cant remember exactly where I saw it, but there was an interview with a few goalies around the league and they were asked who has the hardest shot or release to track and stop. You know whos name was said? Elias Pettersson. I wish I could remember where I saw it, maybe on sportsnet?

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Won't even get into McKinnon, that's simply silly. 

That's because I already did that for you. The offensive advantages for Mackinnon are astronomically higher. 4 minutes more at 5v5.... FOUR MINUTES PLUS PP TIME!!!! Thats 30% of Petterssons ice time 5v5! Take away 4minutes of Mackinnons TOI 5v5 and see how much his production drops, then allot that total of icetime to Petey and see what the production is. 140x0.25=35. 140-35=105pts. Add 30% more TOI to Petterssons production 89x0.3=26.7+89=115pts

And just to add to my point about offensive opportunities having a significant impact on production.

who do you think will have a greater chance at producing more, Mackinnon with 365 offensive zone starts, or Pettersson with 191 offensive zone starts. 174 more opportunities.
 

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

 MckInnon doesn't need Rantanen (still kills it on his own) which was my point.  If he isn't getting 100 points plus a season, there will be blow back.    McKinnon scores with or without Rantanen.

This is where you are wrong. His strongest linemate is Rantanen, 71points of his 140 came with Rantanen stapled to his nutsack. 

Even Strength Best Linemate

PTS	Linemate
71	MIKKO RANTANEN
40	JONATHAN DROUIN
23	VALERI NICHUSHKIN
22	ARTTURI LEHKONEN
7	LOGAN O'CONNOR
6	MILES WOOD
4	TOMAS TATAR
2	ANDREW COGLIANO
2	ROSS COLTON
1	CASEY MITTELSTADT
1	BRANDON DUHAIME
1	RYAN JOHANSEN
1	ZACH PARISE
1	JOEL KIVIRANTA

 

Power Play Best Linemate

PTS	Linemate
46	MIKKO RANTANEN
36	JONATHAN DROUIN
32	VALERI NICHUSHKIN
11	ARTTURI LEHKONEN
6	RYAN JOHANSEN
5	ROSS COLTON
3	CASEY MITTELSTADT
1	ZACH PARISE

 

 

Add up the PP points and you have 117 points with Rantanen. He has had Rantanen at his side since 2017. Which is when he exploded. Dont get me wrong Mackinnon is one hell of a player, but he has had nothing but high end players at his side his entire career. He was a 20 goal 50pt player up until Rantanen joined the line and then he became a 40G+ 100+point player. Also 23 minutes of TOI means more opportunities to score which means higher production... Cant compare a guy in shackles to a guy on a horse. 

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

.Mathew's had spent a lot of time with Marner.    Those guys haven't figured out how to win in the post season, however if you watched TB cup team versus TO, the difference in that series was Vasilevsky.   The stats were virtually identical.  Zone time.  Shots on net.   Quality scoring chances.   One of the best series that post season.   TO has had some very bad luck when it comes to whom they play.   And have set club records with the Mathew's teams as well.   Bad luck.    Which is fun as a Canucks fan. 

 

Their biggest issue is they havent learned to play a full 200ft game. Matthews loses in the playoffs and its just a blank "meh whatever" look on his face. He shows no emotions. It just doesnt show a high enough level of personal care. Hughes, Miller, Petey are breaking sticks and getting pissed off this is why we have gone 2 rounds and took EDM to 7 with a 3rd string goalie.

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

EP had an awful playoffs.   Lindholm was a much more effective player, second to Joshua in hits, and they weren't love taps.   And the eye test certainly wasn't in EPs favour despite the stat line.   One PP goal was it?    Ouch.

 

Okay and Pettersson was clearly injured. Health matters and has a massive impact. 

Pettersson stopped shooting, he stopped taking hits from the side, he shied away from lateral contact and his skating and stability was noticeably weaker. EP had a spectacular playoffs in 2019-20, guess what he was healthy he led the team. His shooting % went from 16.4% to 4.5% in the playoffs. Hard to score if your shooting is clearly being impacted. Ouch is right, he was hurting.

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Draisatl.  He's the other center that's bumped McKinnon once.   Hart, Pearson, Art Ross, AS 1,2,3,4,8,8 - (last year no votes, despite 41 goals and 106 points) past 7 years, aside from his 41 goals all of them over 50 goal seasons or on pace for over 50 goals, and consecutive 106-128 pace.. This includes covid! 347 goals, 850 points in 719 games.   Also a playoff beast (not this year after Myers hit, but in the past, year before that was on pace to shatter that PHI guys record in a single playoffs).  

Draisaitl goes from playing with Hall in 2015-16 to McDavid in 2016-17 and boom his points go up nearly 150%

Leon's number 1 linemate is McDavid every season and his number 1 highest producing linemate every season is McDavid. 

Yes LEON IS A FUCKING BEAST. But he is also 3 years older, more physically mature and playing with Connor fucking McDavid more often than not. 

first 6 years of Leons career 415pts also a -24 where as Pettersson is +56 and that was through some dark rebuilding years....3pts more than Pettersson. Pettersson is tracking quite nicely. Not to mention Pettersson has never been a minus, Draisaitl was only a +7 with 128pts. 

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

This isn't meant to pick on EP.   I'd rather he score 90 and not cheat defensively, the  110 and cheat.   And do recognize McDavid is a perimeter player, Draisatl less so, but both are whiners.    As far as producing goes they also feast on the PP...that said if EP was so good, why doesn't he have 5-7 years of consecutive years of 50 to 69 goals scored?    It's pretty safe to say, he's got the potential. 

 

You're damn right!!!

Pettersson absolutely has that potential based off his consistent shooting % he can absolutely hit 50-60 goals. The thing is, hes a playmaker and he waits for the right opportunity to shoot. He doesnt waste a shot, he waits to pick an opening. Like i've said a few times though, even if he were to shoot more... He still needs more time 5v5 to gain those extra opportunities. But like you said we both would rather he play a full 200ft and give up a little offence.

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Im well aware of the context around Ilya Mikheyev, watched enough of him out east before the signing, also watched enough of Hyman.   Hyman was their glue guy, did all the little things right, especially going to the net, TO fans loved him.   Mikheyev had spot duty in the top six and was ok, nobody wanted him at Allvins cap hit.    Our PK was a disaster, that for sure was part of it, as was his speed and decent ability to finish.   Still it was a big contract, and if you knew, you'd know he was also playing with their fab four a lot his final season...when Hyman left.   Of course his stats would spike.    Also in Alvin's defense, he was going to play with another elite center in EP.  

 Ultimately in Allvins case he signed Mikheyev in order to sign Kuzmenko as they are friends. 

 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

As for Kuznemko, there weren't many posters who didn't feel his production was going to take a hit.   His shooting percentage was Bossy/ Greztky like.    Not sustainable.   No prior history in the KHL either.    Skilled yes.    It was a reasonable deal too.   Only two years. 

I don't mean to come across rude or as a know it all, but this is the difference between fans who have watched hockey and fans who have played a decent level of hockey. 

His skating was the first thing that stood out to me. Instantly didnt see him having a long time in the NHL. Even as the season wore on, as much as he was producing, I was calling for a trade and said I am not sold on Kuzmenko. He is a choppy skater and bails hay. Its inefficient the way he skates. It was an entirely reasonable deal, its just a MASSIVE missed opportunity for the team of gotten better via a trade. They could have unloaded him to a contender for whatever the fuck they would pay, still wound up with Hronek and likely another decent prospect. 

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Allvin is good at cleaning up his own and his predecessor's messes.    Have high hopes that DeBrusk can do for us, what Hyman has done for EDM.   Don't expect 50 goals from him, but 35-40 is a possibility if EP and him gain some chemistry.    

 

Cleaning up? He has made more of a mess for himself and had to clean his own mess more than his predecessor. 

He has a fully built core thanks to his predecessor. 

He overpaid for Mikheyev and had to dump him

Failed to capitalize on Kuzmenko's value and sold at rock bottom

Blew countless assets to watch all of his acquisitions walk. Left our pospect cupboards fairly shallow and less trade chips to move that have enough appeal that arent named Lekkermaki Willander and DPetey. Now we are playing with those guys names in trade talks if we are making a push at the TDL. 

Traded a way a selke caliber 30goal center, took that 1st and traded it for a dman, then needs a selke caliber center as the season is growing, blows a bunch of assets on a rental when he could have traded Kuzmenko, kept Horvat and still had a handful of picks and prospects. 

He lost Zadorov and Lindholm because he put himself in a situation with a 4mil cap hit that was a shortsighted trigger happy move. OEL just went and won a cup and went right back to having exact same impact he has his whole career. I can show the numbers to back it, this was a huge mistake and a timely mistake. He has been fortunate to luck out in free agency, but this is how Gillis got by for those years and look where it left us in the end. Thank god this core is much younger.

Edited August 15 by AnthonyG

[IBatch]

35 minutes ago, Devron said:

It’s not a bad deal, pretty average. Could have got him for 7 that previous summer. One of my favourite players ever. The fit was no longer however. We evolved 

We did have 7 left after Miller.  We had 15 for the pair.  Horvat wanted more.   So we had to trade him.   And well that's a lot of dough (Lou said it was way too much, first time i've ever seen a GM sign a guy and then say that out loud, and it was).   One year in, 68 points, 23 EV goals, 33 total in 81 games - 1.   7 goals, 16 points -4 in 30 games after the trade.   Yikes.  Felt Kadri set the bar, and Horvat wanted that plus a premium for 2 years or so younger.    Average is probably right, but it still was a bad deal.   Like most UFA deals.    It's always going to be compared to Hronek, 3 years younger, 8 years at 7.25 for a top pairing RHD (or so we hope).  Horvat wanted to be paid like a first line center and so far NYI is getting ok value.   

Edited August 15 by IBatch

[Devron]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

We did have 7 left after Miller.  We had 15 for the pair.  Horvat wanted more.   So we had to trade him.   And well that's a lot of dough (Lou said it was way too much, first time i've ever seen a GM sign a guy and then say that out loud, and it was).   One year in, 68 points, 23 EV goals, 33 total in 81 games - 1.   7 goals, 16 points -4 in 30 games after the trade.   Yikes.  Felt Kadri set the bar, and Horvat wanted that plus a premium for 2 years or so younger.    Average is probably right, but it still was a bad deal.   Like most UFA deals.    It's always going to be compared to Hronek, 3 years younger, 8 years at 7.25 for a top pairing RHD (or so we hope).  Horvat wanted to be paid like a first line center and so far NYI is getting ok value.   

Horvat was lowballed in the summer. 7 million would have gotten in done. Thats where the contract should have been, instead he was offered 5 million and so the bad taste lingered and I believe Bo went on a scoring rampage as part of that. A FU to management. Which it is what it is. It’s not so much greedy Bo as it was a “I’ll show you” it worked out for the Islanders although they’ll forever be mediocre scratching for that 8th spot. For Bo he gets to be the guy on the island as much as he wanted to remain a Canuck 

[Madskillz]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

All JT Miller has done since arriving, is embrace his opportunity to play top six top line minutes and especially since Tochett, the match-ups too.   No thanks to Horvat, yes he's a very good player, but not a fan of his passivity and the fact he didn't really use his size to hit.    Maybe Tochett would have also got through to him.    DeBrusk won't take long to become a fan favourite.   He hits, and plays like a bull-dog within the rules.   Know Lindholm was their first choice, and had hopes they'd move EP to the wing and unleash those two.    At the cap hit and age difference, De-Brusk certainly won't have to fight it.   30/30 is a win at his cap hit.    Curious who the third man will be.   

 

As for JT Miller, he's already one of my favourite all-time Canucks, and he's heading towards the ROH, possibly even jersey retirement if we can manage some serious damage or a cup before his contact is up, and he's a big part of that..also after 11 years knocking on wood for health, will be right up there as far as our all-time centers go.   And right now, is our most important forward.    Thank the lord, he's also a durable type, often wondered if Horvats unwillingness to drop the gloves and make a hit, had to do with self preservation.   Linden and Smyl for sure didn't have that.   Glad QHs was the choice for our Captain.   Miller would have been just fine as well. 

Very exciting team we going to ice every night, theirs a players in the press box that would be a reg on other teams, nothing better to have depth.

[IBatch]

30 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Let me ask you this, how many players have won the hart on 

1) a rebuilding team

2) a non-playoff team

Trophies like the Hart, Selke and Norris are reflective of the teams success as well. The teams success has a large impact on one single players impact on those votes. Unless a player has an absolute mind blowing season on a bottom feeder team ala Karlsson on SJS. 

Ottawa made the playoffs in 2011-12 and Karlsson won the Norris. The following season he plays 17 games and finishes 18th in Norris votes. What? 2013-14 Karlsson puts up 20 goals 54 assists 74 points, Ottawa misses the playoffs....Karlsson 7th in Norris votes. 2014-15 21 goal 45 assists 66pts wins the Norris and guess what Ottawa made the playoffs. 

The ebbs and flows of team success translates to recognition.

2022-23 Karlsson put up 105 fucking points, he clearly was winning the Norris, no one could come close. But the Hart... went to a playoff team. Karlsson was literally the definition of what that award is. "Most valuable player to his team"  he was the most valuable player to his team by a southern country mile. Yet doesnt even get top 3 recognition.

 

Matthews is the higher goal scorer, Pettersson is the more all around 2 way player. Matthews has a 16.2S% Pettersson has a 16.6S%. Is Matthews really the better shooter? He's a higher volume shooter, but puts up slightly lower S% than Pettersson. 3966 shots vs 1998 shots. Double the shots double the goals.

John Scott went to the Allstar game. Its votes for fans favorite players they want to see. The allstar game doesnt mean shit imo. Matthews hasnt shown the drive and determination to win. Pettersson gives it everything and thats why he is part of the PK because he is competitive.

 

averages a minute of TOTAL icetime less, however he plays 13 minutes TOI as I showed you and Matthews plays nearly 2 minutes more 5v5 plus gets all the PP time and no PK time PLUS far more offensive zone starts. Thats a HUGE advantage if you are going to weigh stats you need to factor in all the advantages/disadvantages. Matthews is the volume shooter, Pettersson is the playmaker. I cant remember exactly where I saw it, but there was an interview with a few goalies around the league and they were asked who has the hardest shot or release to track and stop. You know whos name was said? Elias Pettersson. I wish I could remember where I saw it, maybe on sportsnet?

 

That's because I already did that for you. The offensive advantages for Mackinnon are astronomically higher. 4 minutes more at 5v5.... FOUR MINUTES PLUS PP TIME!!!! Thats 30% of Petterssons ice time 5v5! Take away 4minutes of Mackinnons TOI 5v5 and see how much his production drops, then allot that total of icetime to Petey and see what the production is. 140x0.25=35. 140-35=105pts. Add 30% more TOI to Petterssons production 89x0.3=26.7+89=115pts

 

This is where you are wrong. His strongest linemate is Rantanen, 71points of his 140 came with Rantanen stapled to his nutsack. 

Even Strength Best Linemate

PTS	Linemate
71	MIKKO RANTANEN
40	JONATHAN DROUIN
23	VALERI NICHUSHKIN
22	ARTTURI LEHKONEN
7	LOGAN O'CONNOR
6	MILES WOOD
4	TOMAS TATAR
2	ANDREW COGLIANO
2	ROSS COLTON
1	CASEY MITTELSTADT
1	BRANDON DUHAIME
1	RYAN JOHANSEN
1	ZACH PARISE
1	JOEL KIVIRANTA

 

Power Play Best Linemate

PTS	Linemate
46	MIKKO RANTANEN
36	JONATHAN DROUIN
32	VALERI NICHUSHKIN
11	ARTTURI LEHKONEN
6	RYAN JOHANSEN
5	ROSS COLTON
3	CASEY MITTELSTADT
1	ZACH PARISE

 

 

Add up the PP points and you have 117 points with Rantanen. He has had Rantanen at his side since 2017. Which is when he exploded. Dont get me wrong Mackinnon is one hell of a player, but he has had nothing but high end players at his side his entire career. He was a 20 goal 50pt player up until Rantanen joined the line and then he became a 40G+ 100+point player. Also 23 minutes of TOI means more opportunities to score which means higher production... Cant compare a guy in shackles to a guy on a horse. 

 

 

Their biggest issue is they havent learned to play a full 200ft game. Matthews loses in the playoffs and its just a blank "meh whatever" look on his face. He shows no emotions. It just doesnt show a high enough level of personal care. Hughes, Miller, Petey are breaking sticks and getting pissed off this is why we have gone 2 rounds and took EDM to 7 with a 3rd string goalie.

 

 

Okay and Pettersson was clearly injured. Health matters and has a massive impact. 

Pettersson stopped shooting, he stopped taking hits from the side, he shied away from lateral contact and his skating and stability was noticeably weaker. EP had a spectacular playoffs in 2019-20, guess what he was healthy he led the team. His shooting % went from 16.4% to 4.5% in the playoffs. Hard to score if your shooting is clearly being impacted. Ouch is right, he was hurting.

 

Draisaitl goes from playing with Hall in 2015-16 to McDavid in 2016-17 and boom his points go up nearly 150%

Leon's number 1 linemate is McDavid every season and his number 1 highest producing linemate every season is McDavid. 

Yes LEON IS A FUCKING BEAST. But he is also 3 years older, more physically mature and playing with Connor fucking McDavid more often than not. 

first 6 years of Leons career 415pts also a -24 where as Pettersson is +56 and that was through some dark rebuilding years....3pts more than Pettersson. Pettersson is tracking quite nicely. Not to mention Pettersson has never been a minus, Draisaitl was only a +7 with 128pts. 

 

 

You're damn right!!!

Pettersson absolutely has that potential based off his consistent shooting % he can absolutely hit 50-60 goals. The thing is, hes a playmaker and he waits for the right opportunity to shoot. He doesnt waste a shot, he waits to pick an opening. Like i've said a few times though, even if he were to shoot more... He still needs more time 5v5 to gain those extra opportunities. But like you said we both would rather he play a full 200ft and give up a little offence.

 

 Ultimately in Allvins case he signed Mikheyev in order to sign Kuzmenko as they are friends. 

 

I don't mean to come across rude or as a know it all, but this is the difference between fans who have watched hockey and fans who have played a decent level of hockey. 

His skating was the first thing that stood out to me. Instantly didnt see him having a long time in the NHL. Even as the season wore on, as much as he was producing, I was calling for a trade and said I am not sold on Kuzmenko. He is a choppy skater and bails hay. Its inefficient the way he skates. It was an entirely reasonable deal, its just a MASSIVE missed opportunity for the team of gotten better via a trade. They could have unloaded him to a contender for whatever the fuck they would pay, still wound up with Hronek and likely another decent prospect. 

 

Cleaning up? He has made more of a mess for himself and had to clean his own mess more than his predecessor. 

He has a fully built core thanks to his predecessor. 

He overpaid for Mikheyev and had to dump him

Failed to capitalize on Kuzmenko's value and sold at rock bottom

Blew countless assets to watch all of his acquisitions walk. Left our pospect cupboards fairly shallow and less trade chips to move that have enough appeal that arent named Lekkermaki Willander and DPetey. Now we are playing with those guys names in trade talks if we are making a push at the TDL. 

Traded a way a selke caliber 30goal center, took that 1st and traded it for a dman, then needs a selke caliber center as the season is growing, blows a bunch of assets on a rental when he could have traded Kuzmenko, kept Horvat and still had a handful of picks and prospects. 

He lost Zadorov and Lindholm because he put himself in a situation with a 4mil cap hit that was a shortsighted trigger happy move. OEL just went and won a cup and went right back to having exact same impact he has his whole career. I can show the numbers to back it, this was a huge mistake and a timely mistake. He has been fortunate to luck out in free agency, but this is how Gillis got by for those years and look where it left us in the end. Thank god this core is much younger.

Too much  wall of text.  Sorry man, i'm just going to go with the experts on this, once EP starts getting regular all-star berths then maybe we can consider him a top five center in this league.  Are you seriously trying to say he's better the  McKinnon and Mathews?   That's goofy.   Even Draisatl is goofy, basic stats suggest otherwise.   And well, so does the eye test.   As does the entire body of experts.   He's now been paid to be one of those guys, let's hope together, that he becomes that.   I don't need a history lesson ok.   Am well aware of what the Hart trophy is.  Didn't Taylor Hall recently win one on a crappy NJ team?   If EP is so good, why didn't he get some recognition then.   TO writers have an equal footing on every other city in the league as far as votings go too, so won't get into the Eastern Bias real or imagined.   I'm well aware of how the cap works.   And a well aware he was paid more then he's worth based on taxes compared to "team friendly" deals signed elsewhere in low state tax regions.    My entire point was he's been paid to be a top center (or even player now).   And part of that, comes with the expectation to produce like one.   FYI the cap went to 5%.   And if you care to bother, his contract came in exactly where I predicted it would, given taxes, otherwise he'd be getting less.   At his age we aren't paying for potentials anymore.   Maybe he will get to the top five perennial territory one day, maybe he won't.    He's got a lot of competition.  The guys who do get there, regularly, have a bit of a stranglehold on it. 

[IBatch]

32 minutes ago, Devron said:

Horvat was lowballed in the summer. 7 million would have gotten in done. Thats where the contract should have been, instead he was offered 5 million and so the bad taste lingered and I believe Bo went on a scoring rampage as part of that. A FU to management. Which it is what it is. It’s not so much greedy Bo as it was a “I’ll show you” it worked out for the Islanders although they’ll forever be mediocre scratching for that 8th spot. For Bo he gets to be the guy on the island as much as he wanted to remain a Canuck 

We offered a deal that started with a 5.   He was already making more than that, so suspect it was something in the high fives and 8 years.   It was the first offer.  We don't know what the final one was.   Given what they offered Lindholm, suspect it was in the total money range of high 40's.    What I felt was fair was the same money as Miller over 8 years, so 7 x 8.    Not sure if the club got there or not.  Also kind of sad he had to toil through our rebuild, and likely going to do the same on Long Island. 

 

Edit:  Horvat made an impact as kid versus CAL.   And felt his bubble efforts were on par with Lindens heroics.   Truly wanted to see more of Horvat in the post season, he has  great series versus St. Louis and O'Reilly.   Was it 10 goals in 17 games?  Pretty darned good. 

Edited August 15 by IBatch

[EastCoastExpress]

Sure hope management learned from Horvat and does better with Boeser.

47 minutes ago, IBatch said:

We offered a deal that started with a 5.   He was already making more than that, so suspect it was something in the high fives and 8 years.   It was the first offer.  We don't know what the final one was.   Given what they offered Lindholm, suspect it was in the total money range of high 40's.    What I felt was fair was the same money as Miller over 8 years, so 7 x 8.    Not sure if the club got there or not.  Also kind of sad he had to toil through our rebuild, and likely going to do the same on Long Island. 

 

Edit:  Horvat made an impact as kid versus CAL.   And felt his bubble efforts were on par with Lindens heroics.   Truly wanted to see more of Horvat in the post season, he has  great series versus St. Louis and O'Reilly.   Was it 10 goals in 17 games?  Pretty darned good. 

Boeser's shooting percentage was around %20 over the year, and playoffs it went up to %25

Ok, maybe regression but maybe he is a sniper who is at the right place and the right time more often than not.

Amazing in the playoffs, and this was his first season that he looked like his Rookie season.

[AnthonyG]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Too much  wall of text.  Sorry man, i'm just going to go with the experts on this, once EP starts getting regular all-star berths then maybe we can consider him a top five center in this league.  Are you seriously trying to say he's better the  McKinnon and Mathews?   That's goofy.   Even Draisatl is goofy, basic stats suggest otherwise.   And well, so does the eye test.   As does the entire body of experts.   He's now been paid to be one of those guys, let's hope together, that he becomes that.   I don't need a history lesson ok.   Am well aware of what the Hart trophy is.  Didn't Taylor Hall recently win one on a crappy NJ team?   If EP is so good, why didn't he get some recognition then.   TO writers have an equal footing on every other city in the league as far as votings go too, so won't get into the Eastern Bias real or imagined.   I'm well aware of how the cap works.   And a well aware he was paid more then he's worth based on taxes compared to "team friendly" deals signed elsewhere in low state tax regions.    My entire point was he's been paid to be a top center (or even player now).   And part of that, comes with the expectation to produce like one.   FYI the cap went to 5%.   And if you care to bother, his contract came in exactly where I predicted it would, given taxes, otherwise he'd be getting less.   At his age we aren't paying for potentials anymore.   Maybe he will get to the top five perennial territory one day, maybe he won't.    He's got a lot of competition.  The guys who do get there, regularly, have a bit of a stranglehold on it. 

Mackinnon 365 offensive zone starts to Petterssons 191. Do you understand just how many more offensive opportunities these guys you picked are getting over Pettersson? 
 

Mackinnon 174 more opportunities and nearly 300 minutes more 5v5

draisaitl 80 more opportunities and 170 more minutes 

 

Matthews only 4 more but 170 more minutes 5v5

Crosby 97 more plus 150 more minutes 5v5

 

 

You compare Pettersson to Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthew’s and Crosby with basic stats. These guys are given full freedom to unleash offence, Pettersson is playing a more responsible game and utilized evenly in both zones whereas the players above are getting a 10-15%+ favourable offensive zone start. 

 

Your $100 meal just turned into $115 just off gratuity. Add in some customer service such as more zone time and your tip becomes a little more generous for your hard work.

 

The point is Pettersson is absolutely as good as the players you have mentioned and I have shown you all the stats and advantages that impact their numbers and when you reign them in, their numbers are no better than Peteys. Petey is doing everything these guys aren’t and not sacrificing defence for offence. 
 

You can’t expect someone to produce from their own zone. We pay him to play in both ends and maintain a respectable goal differential. I’ve highlighted everything for you to pay attention to that is impacting point production and that’s without even dragging Mikheyev into the fold. Plus Kuzmenko. Plus the continuous shuffling of the deck through his line…. And most of all… HE WAS INJURED! Draisaitl disappeared after he got crushed by Myers. Injuries have an impact, you can’t blame him for not producing because he was injured. 
 

Pettersson is elite.

 

 

PS Taylor Hall won the Hart on a crappy PLAYOFF NJD team. Once again, playoffs.

Edited August 15 by AnthonyG

[Gurn]

topic started July 25th

 

guess they aren't that close to signing, after all?

[DeNiro]

15 minutes ago, Gurn said:

topic started July 25th

 

guess they aren't that close to signing, after all?

Crosby too…

[AnthonyG]

2 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Crosby too…

Stinks of a JR and PA Pittsburgh TDL reunion…. Come on Sid, re-sign with Pittsburgh in the offseason. Come win a cup where you won a gold medal!

[DeNiro]

12 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Stinks of a JR and PA Pittsburgh TDL reunion…. Come on Sid, re-sign with Pittsburgh in the offseason. Come win a cup where you won a gold medal!

You gotta wonder if both sides are thinking let’s wait and see if we can be a playoff team and if not we can send you to a contender.

 

They can always sign him next offseason.

[AnthonyG]

56 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

You gotta wonder if both sides are thinking let’s wait and see if we can be a playoff team and if not we can send you to a contender.

 

They can always sign him next offseason.

I mean he has a very special connection to that arena. Which at this point in his career and where Pittsburgh and Vancouver are both headed, it’s incentivizing enough. There’s a lot of reason for Crosby to consider waiving if there was an offer to come here.

He won gold in that very rink on home soil, he could be a huge part in bringing the cup to Canada for the first time in over 30 years, help Vancouver Canucks win their first ever cup. It would just add to his legacy even more and solidify him as one of the greatest hockey players of all time. Plus if he truly cares about Pittsburgh, willing to leave on a trade to help the future is even more love and respect to show for the Pittsburgh organization and he can come right back on a contract a few months later like a story book ending. 

[Devron]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Edit:  Horvat made an impact as kid versus CAL.   And felt his bubble efforts were on par with Lindens heroics.   Truly wanted to see more of Horvat in the post season, he has  great series versus St. Louis and O'Reilly.   Was it 10 goals in 17 games?  Pretty darned good. 

Yeah he was pretty awesome for us in the playoffs. Side note I remember the Sedins saying don’t change your game or something like that when he got the C but I think he did to a degree. I also think coaching played a factor. Would have been interesting to see Horvat under Tocc without the contract bs 

[Kevin Biestra]

9 hours ago, IBatch said:

Brock is 9  behind Kesler in 180 or so less games, and BoMo 70 or so games.   Not suggesting he was as good as either guy either.    Just goes to show how much folks don't appreciate players when they are younger.  As for EP, if he finishes his contract and does what we all hope he will do, for sure has a chance at numero uno.   QHs won't take long to pass Edler, but will say that bar was set really low, and we've had better D's for sure that played a lot let games.    I highly doubt QHs will overtake the Sedins, but yes could be EP, Sedin. Sedin,  Miller, one day ... until we see QHs sign his next deal would leave him out.

 

If Babych or Reinhart had spent their careers in Vancouver from the get go like Quinn Hughes we would have had some records that Quinn would have to work a bit longer and harder to take a crack at.  Babych with 723 points in a long but still injury shortened career and Reinhart with 559 points in 648 games, almost a point per game for his career on the blueline but wrecked by back problems...might have been a Hall of Famer otherwise.  Missed most of the season at each of age 24 and 26 and 28 and then was done altogether a couple years later.

 

As it is...kind of sad that Doug Lidster will probably become even more forgotten now that his 63 points, the high water mark for over 30 years, drops further down the list of best seasons with each year Quinn Hughes plays.  The Canucks retired Naslund's jersey in a rush to have it happen before the Sedins passed him as the career scoring record holders and his case would start to vanish in a similar manner.

 

If there had been an ROH in 1990, the King would have been in it.  Now he has suffered the same fate as he was once the Stan Smyl of goalies with all the records, then was passed by McLean (the Linden) who was then passed by Luongo (the Sedins of Canuck goalies).  Stan Smyl had to pass Thomas Gradin to be the all time scoring leader and didn't pass him by all that much.

 

We've had a few more defensemen who would have probably kept Edler from having a shot at any club career records if they had been Canucks all or most of the way through.  Jovocop.  I wanted to say Kevin McCarthy, Dale Tallon, Jocelyn Guevremont, Doug Halward, Rick Lanz...but despite high peaks it's weird how many of the old Canucks completely fizzled out by age 30 (forwards too like Tanti).  Looking back Babych and Reinhart really do stand out as the two all-time great pre-Hughes talents.  Guys like Tallon had it too but just couldn't produce consistently year after year.

 

 

Edited August 16 by Kevin Biestra

[Kevin Biestra]

13 hours ago, IBatch said:

Brock is 9  behind Kesler in 180 or so less games, and BoMo 70 or so games.   Not suggesting he was as good as either guy either.    Just goes to show how much folks don't appreciate players when they are younger.  As for EP, if he finishes his contract and does what we all hope he will do, for sure has a chance at numero uno.   QHs won't take long to pass Edler, but will say that bar was set really low, and we've had better D's for sure that played a lot let games.    I highly doubt QHs will overtake the Sedins, but yes could be EP, Sedin. Sedin,  Miller, one day ... until we see QHs sign his next deal would leave him out.     One thing i'd really like to see, is Lindens post season records broken.   Also the fact JT Miller has passed guys in five years that were around for a decade or so... he doesn't get the love he deserves.  Sure glad he was part of this years All-Star game, considering both Brock and EP have already been, kind of a joke really.   JT Miller leads the way, and by quite some distance, of any Canuck the past five seasons.   As for QHs even if he just finishes his current deal, likely set an assist record that will be awfully hard to break. 

 

Edit:  People still pump Mogilny's tires, rightly so to a degree.   JT Miller has 94 more points in 52 games.  Plus 44 versus plus 24.   Not that Mogilny wasn't playing in a much rougher era though because he was.    Just hope he's going to get some respect.   He's certainly earned it. 

 

I think Brock may have caught up to Morrison as a player.  Brendan Morrison has a YouTube channel now...did a few decent videos during the playoff run.

 

I'm probably guilty of taking a little while to come around with younger players but once I do I will probably end up defending them for life...Ronning, Skriko, Tanti, etc.  Not that it took anyone any time to come around with Ronning...guy hit the ground sprinting in Vancouver right after the trade.

 

Edited August 16 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, DeNiro said:

You gotta wonder if both sides are thinking let’s wait and see if we can be a playoff team and if not we can send you to a contender.

 

They can always sign him next offseason.

The cost though.   A one year rental.   And the fact Allvin is going to almost certainly going to have to pay some young player/pick capital to add to our blueline.    It took Ray Borque two cracks at it with the AVs, who were absolutely stacked back then, to win a cup.   Not one.   Crosby has his cups, his Smythes ... maybe he does want another one.   If he does, would you give up hogs, Lekkermaki, a couple first rounders plus some picks to lower his cap hit via a third party?   And run with our current D... We'd need two teams to retain, but could in theory end up with Crosby at 2.17...yikes! 

 

If he wants to win a cup, and one for Canada, his best bet is likely either us or EDM.   EDM is in a cup or bust boat given Crysaitl's next deal will force them to do something, likely Nurse with some retention makes the most sense.  

 

I love Crosby, but not at a one off cup or bust for ourselves.     The price would be enormous.   

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I think Brock may have caught up to Morrison as a player.  Brendan Morrison has a YouTube channel now...did a few decent videos during the playoff run.

 

I'm probably guilty of taking a little while to come around with younger players but once I do I will probably end up defending them for life...Ronning, Skriko, Tanti, etc.  Not that it took anyone any time to come around with Ronning...guy hit the ground sprinting in Vancouver right after the trade.

 

Given how long it took Naslund and the Sedins to start showing promise, then to break out into super-star territory for Naslund 3 years the Sedins 1-2, i'm pretty patient with them.   Also seen it go the other way with Linden and his knee injury.     Was absolutely stoked with Brock's rookie season.   What a release and what accuracy!    Glad he's finally got his mojo going, and he's a completely different player than he was early on.   Was always good at board battles, now he's way more engaged with that aspect, and he goes to the net doesn't hide in the shadows waiting for an opportunity (Toffoli lol that's you bro).

 

 JT Miller and Brock, were played against the best players in the world head on last season from the get go, and look at what they just did.   IMO, they just had a performance for the ages, that's up there with any WCE era given Bo-Mo was the only guy on that line they played any defense... they remind me of the Courtnall Ronning Linden Life-Line.

 

Because that's exactly what they were for us last season.  

 

The D. Sedin H.Sedin Burrows line versus Courtnall/Adams Linden Bure  lines for sure were the most talented.   However if you remember, Kesler was assigned to play against the best of the best at home, the Sedins were given 73ish percentage zone starts in the o-zone.    Wasn't like that for JT Miller and Brock, they were responsible for going out wherever the best players were and taking them on head to head (and most of the time they helped get the puck out, then forechecked and kept it in the other zone, got and maintained possession).   Was a treat watching them bury McDavid and Co early on.   For 2/3 of the season, they were an all-world line.   Things changed after the all-star game.   A big part of that was Demko out.    Team adjusted tactics and also went into playoff mode at the same time.   

 

At one point both Brock and Miller were challenging to meet or beat Murzyn, Ward, Hanks best plus minus.   Still they carried that torch for our forward group, and really it wouldn't have been so bad if they were just even players given the quality of competition they were up against.    Much like Lindens job as Canuck.   Take on the best of the best. 

 

Brock I think will sign for something a lot more reasonable than the open market could provide for him.   Expecting something in the mid 7's, 8 full seasons.    There is no way they will want to break that line up, and when Miller starts to decline, EPs line should be right there to pick up the slack.    Only a few times in club history, can we say we had two very good scoring lines.   The Linden era, and this one. 

Edited August 16 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 8/15/2024 at 3:46 PM, AnthonyG said:

Mackinnon 365 offensive zone starts to Petterssons 191. Do you understand just how many more offensive opportunities these guys you picked are getting over Pettersson? 
 

Mackinnon 174 more opportunities and nearly 300 minutes more 5v5

draisaitl 80 more opportunities and 170 more minutes 

 

Matthews only 4 more but 170 more minutes 5v5

Crosby 97 more plus 150 more minutes 5v5

 

 

You compare Pettersson to Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthew’s and Crosby with basic stats. These guys are given full freedom to unleash offence, Pettersson is playing a more responsible game and utilized evenly in both zones whereas the players above are getting a 10-15%+ favourable offensive zone start. 

 

Your $100 meal just turned into $115 just off gratuity. Add in some customer service such as more zone time and your tip becomes a little more generous for your hard work.

 

The point is Pettersson is absolutely as good as the players you have mentioned and I have shown you all the stats and advantages that impact their numbers and when you reign them in, their numbers are no better than Peteys. Petey is doing everything these guys aren’t and not sacrificing defence for offence. 
 

You can’t expect someone to produce from their own zone. We pay him to play in both ends and maintain a respectable goal differential. I’ve highlighted everything for you to pay attention to that is impacting point production and that’s without even dragging Mikheyev into the fold. Plus Kuzmenko. Plus the continuous shuffling of the deck through his line…. And most of all… HE WAS INJURED! Draisaitl disappeared after he got crushed by Myers. Injuries have an impact, you can’t blame him for not producing because he was injured. 
 

Pettersson is elite.

 

 

PS Taylor Hall won the Hart on a crappy PLAYOFF NJD team. Once again, playoffs.

Too much focus on o-zone starts.   Most of the game isn't a face off, and well context matters too, they don't have Kadri anymore, Mckinnons eye popping 23 minutes, they relied on him for everything, and have been since their cup (and before their cup as well).   Don't his playoff performances count for something too?   He's borderline generational, first Crosby/Mckinnon, now McDavid versus Mckinnon.   Why are we (you) comparing EP to McKinnon, and not Aho and Barkov?    If we want to do that, we'd be invalidating what the Sedins managed and validating what Kessler and Maholtra's line did.   Don't even  need to go there, the eye test is enough for me.  So is the pile of accolades.  Each year the writers (it's not an easy gig to get, and you don't get one without rising to the top either) vote.   The players themselves also vote on the Pearson.   Like i've already showed you, it's not in EPs favour.   And not sure what playoffs you just watched, the criticism is legit.   The best centers in the world, carry their lines.  Crosby, McKinnon, McDavid, Mathew's, Draisatl, Barkov (my personal not on our team love affair) have all shown >> then EP so far.   It's beyond reproach really.    I'd say Jt Miller has too, because his 99 point season, he had a constant rotation of forwards, the only guy who was their 50% of the time, was Brock.   Under Bruce he put the team on his back like few i've ever seen since following the Canucks in the 80's.  
 

This whole thing started because I said unless EP starts playing like a top five center and is producing 100 point efforts on a regular basis, this fanbase is going to get on his case.    That's all I said.   Then some stories started with O-zone starts being the main metric.   Ignoring the basics, such as goals, assists, primary assists, personal hardware etc.  Do you really think EPs efforts on non playoff Canuck teams or Canuck teams was worthy of Hart votes?   The only one who's done that is JT Miller, and well he did get recognized for it, was it 3 of his five seasons?  Two of his first four for sure.    EP has one season under his belt, and rightly so, was ranked number 5 for centers.   I don't think your treating the other centers with the same lens, including JT Miller during that span. 

 

Didn't Mckinnon just win the Hart, Pearson and first team all-star, and Mathew's the Richard and 3rd for Selke?   Then there are other guys like Brayden Point and Stamkos, even Eric Staal had a very good  season half way through or so EPs career.   Let's be honest.  There are a lot more names than the ones i've been using.  EPs got the potential for greatness, and just signed a contract 1.1 richer then Barkov's in a flat cap world.   Add his share of the 5% cap increase, and some for taxes and that's who he's been paid like.    A top five center.   There are younger players coming up behind him as well, Jack Hughes for one.   

 

Strictly points (won't do the playoffs those weren't very good games for him), he was 10th in scoring last season.   Miller was 5th.  Then Reinhart (who also scored 57 goals and was plus 29), then Crosby, then Point (who also has epic playoff performances and truly doesn't get his due), Aho (another good EP comp, always scores a lot and his line doesn't get scored on) etc.   Yes he's had one fantastic regular season, one we were coached to cheat in our zone and was kind of wasted ... Horvat was on his way to score 50 until he fell off a cliff in NYI.   7 goals final 30 games.    

 

Last season EP was insulated.   Quality of competition compared to JT Millers line, he wasn't the top line.  And expect that to change over time, maybe even as soon as next season.   But so far, one great season, one more very good one and the rest not even in the same stratosphere isn't enough burden of proof for me.   I've seen a lot of hockey players not meet expectations, and a lot surprise, and a lot who had one or two elite seasons.   But weren't elite.   To me elite means top five.   To be a super-star, you need to in the 1-3 over a period of time not just a season.  

 

By pure definition, super means at a different level.   There can only be a few at any given time.    First and second all-star berths are a requirement, or context, Sakic was one of the best players in the 90's, recently ranked 7th best any position, but didn't make the cut for superstar, behind  Gretzky (2,) Mario,  Messier and Yzerman by THN... did manage a Smythe though .   Adam Oats who tied Sakic for second most points in the decade and led for assists, was number 22 ... Lindros, Sundin, Lafontaine, Gilmour, Federov, Modano, Forsberg were also in the mix.   Same thing happened to Lidstrom, just to many great D's to compete.   Don't think the same things happening to EP right now. 

Edited August 17 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

50 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Too much focus on o-zone starts.   Most of the game isn't a face off, and well context matters too, they don't have Kadri anymore, Mckinnons eye popping 23 minutes, they relied on him for everything, and have been since their cup (and before their cup as well). 

Ummmm dude stay on point, you want to talk about offence and why Pettersson isnt putting up Mackinnon numbers... I showed you why. 300 minutes more TOI and 174 more offensive zone starts. Possession is largely based off of a faceoff its how the game starts, its how each play starts, with a faceoff and its difficult to regain possession. If faceoffs didnt matter, you wouldnt be looking to get centre matchups that favor you, lefty vs righty, strong side vs weak side, line vs line. The faceoff is one of the most important parts of the game, getting possession. Think of how many whistles there are in a game. In game 7 there was 52 faceoffs, do you understand how much of an impact that has? that nearly 1 per minute. Thats a lot of exchanges of possession.  Secondly Mackinnon is relied on purely for offence, he has zero impact on the PK and the dzone, so no he is not relied on for everything, he is like every other 1 dimensional star player, offensive opportunities only. Powerplay, empty net and offensive zone faceoffs/extended shifts on tired legs.

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Why are we (you) comparing EP to McKinnon, and not Aho and Barkov?

 

The best centers in the world, carry their lines.  Crosby, McKinnon, McDavid, Mathew's, Draisatl, Barkov (my personal not on our team love affair) have all shown >> then EP so far.   It's beyond reproach really.    I'd say Jt Miller has too, because his 99 point season, he had a constant rotation of forwards, the only guy who was their 50% of the time, was Brock. 

Well you have to ask yourself that. The discussion was about Pettersson and you brought Mackinnon, Matthews, Crosby and Draisaitl into the fold. 

 

Those guys have all had much MUCH better players on their line. Look at their #1 linemates and the point production out of those guys. Give Mackinnon Mikheyev and Hoglander or a struggling Lindholm and see how well that line does. Probably not great. 

Pettersson is absolutely as good. He starts from the dzone 50% of the time. His point production is impacted by starting their first of all, secondly having 2 minutes less of ice time 5v5 and lastly shittier linemates. He was on pace to break 100pts up until the injury and the anchor that Mikheyev was. 

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

This whole thing started because I said unless EP starts playing like a top five center and is producing 100 point efforts on a regular basis, this fanbase is going to get on his case.    That's all I said.   Then some stories started with O-zone starts being the main metric.   Ignoring the basics, such as goals, assists, primary assists, personal hardware etc.  Do you really think EPs efforts on non playoff Canuck teams or Canuck teams was worthy of Hart votes?   The only one who's done that is JT Miller, and well he did get recognized for it, was it 3 of his five seasons?  Two of his first four for sure.    EP has one season under his belt, and rightly so, was ranked number 5 for centers.   I don't think your treating the other centers with the same lens, including JT Miller during that span. 

I get that and I am showing you and the rest of the readers that they cant expect 100pts if he is getting 13mins 5v5 TOI thats Jake Virtanen fuckin numbers. Not only that but he is starting his shifts 50/50 dzone vs ozone. There is no favorable zone start to give him extra opportunities to produce. They want him out their in all situations, literally all situations because Pettersson can handle the dzone, he can help kill penalties, he can score, he can make plays, he can do everything, they have sacrificed offence for defense.

We werent talking about JT its been about Pettersson and yes JT is a fucking warrior and one of my favorite players. 

Pettersson deserved Hart recognition in 2022-23. That was the season he learned to become a true pro. I'm not sure if you recall, but after 2020-21 he rehabbed his wrist, took an extended vacation and showed up to camp last minute and then had a horrendous 42 game start to the season that held the entire team back from playoffs because he took waaaay too long to get going. He learned a valuable lesson from that season and showed up to camp EARLY and was like a bat out of hell for 2022-23, last season he was once again back early and started out wither nearly 2pts per game for the first 15 games of the season, then he tapered off slightly and his linemates struggled and he got injured and his production took a hit. Look how long it took JT to become who he is, took him til he was 28 years old to truly become an elite player. 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Didn't Mckinnon just win the Hart, Pearson and first team all-star, and Mathew's the Richard and 3rd for Selke?   Then there are other guys like Brayden Point and Stamkos, even Eric Staal had a very good  season half way through or so EPs career.   Let's be honest.  There are a lot more names than the ones i've been using.  EPs got the potential for greatness, and just signed a contract 1.1 richer then Barkov's in a flat cap world.   Add his share of the 5% cap increase, and some for taxes and that's who he's been paid like.    A top five center.   There are younger players coming up behind him as well, Jack Hughes for one.   

Okay, you clearly glanced over what I wrote about the Hart. Please go back and read if you dont mind. 

Secondly EP is playing in a high tax market, Barkov is playing in a no tax state. Its unfair to compare Barkov being paid less when his take home is probably higher than Petterssons. 

What is your definition of a top 5C, please enlighten me, because Jack Hughes hasnt found the Dzone yet.

 

You are ignoring the biggest factor in producing, extra opportunities. 

As I will once again refer back to Mackinnon he had 300 more minutes of ice time 5v5, which you can bet was mostly offensive deployment either off the rush or part of those 174 extra faceoffs. THATS MASSIVE. If you take Pettersson's TOI 13.4 minutes or whatever the fuck it was and just divide 300 by that, you'll get an additional 23pts which puts Pettersson at 112pts. JUST from ice time based off his production. Does that please you? You cant rag on a guy who doesnt get the extra opportunities, is playing injured, being used as full 200ft player and with shittier linemates. No one was crying about his production the first half of the season. It was the 2nd half where something was clearly wrong. 

Jack Hughes is not a 2way player. Not used as one and probably never will be. None of the guys you want to use to compare kill penalties. Not only that guys like Point and Barkov have so much more talent on their lines and 60%+ offensive zone starts!!

 

Pettersson is not relied upon entirely for offence, he is distributed evenly in both ends of the ice and in his limited 5v5 time he has very little time to waste. His points per 60 is 2.6. Its right there with Crosby, Draisaitl etc. Mackinnon had a monster season with 3.4pts/60 but thats because the guy is given so many more opportunities than anyone else. He is producing at the same rate, just less overall points based off his deployment and utilization such as PK and more defensive responsibilities. JT Miller atleast had a consistent 20-25goal scorer in Boeser.

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Strictly points (won't do the playoffs those weren't very good games for him), he was 10th in scoring last season.   Miller was 5th.  Then Reinhart (who also scored 57 goals and was plus 29), then Crosby, then Point (who also has epic playoff performances and truly doesn't get his due), Aho (another good EP comp, always scores a lot and his line doesn't get scored on) etc.   Yes he's had one fantastic regular season, one we were coached to cheat in our zone and was kind of wasted ... Horvat was on his way to score 50 until he fell off a cliff in NYI.   7 goals final 30 games.    

 

You know what 144pts did for Kucherov, 140 for Mackinnon, 132 for McDavid, 120 for Panarin 110 for Pastrnak... NOTHING. they lost to a team with 1 guy over 90pts.

Barkov makes 9mil and has never broken 100pts and only broken 90tpts once. You know why?? Because Barkov is used 50/50. Barkov is in my opinion the best 2way player in the game. He's paid like one, doesnt produce like one and isnt used the same as one. Just because your production from a player is lower, doesnt mean they are not as good, it all comes down to how they are used. Our team uses Petey in both ends, just the same as FLA does with Barkov. A lot of these other teams, forgo defense and focus on offence with their top Cs and they have a second line to deal with defensive duties. 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Last season EP was insulated.   Quality of competition compared to JT Millers line, he wasn't the top line.  And expect that to change over time, maybe even as soon as next season.   But so far, one great season, one more very good one and the rest not even in the same stratosphere isn't enough burden of proof for me.   I've seen a lot of hockey players not meet expectations, and a lot surprise, and a lot who had one or two elite seasons.   But weren't elite.   To me elite means top five.   To be a super-star, you need to in the 1-3 over a period of time not just a season.  

 

By pure definition, super means at a different level.   There can only be a few at any given time.    First and second all-star berths are a requirement. 

JT Miller was also HEALTHY and had Boeser on his line almost all season. Quality of competition vs quality of linemates.....OH and once again health, something you seem to be ignoring over and over. 

Pettersson has had great seasons being one of the only stars on the team his first couple seasons. He has had better seasons earlier in his career than guys like Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Barkov, Miller. Pettersson is 25. Barkov isnt even a point per game player in his career and only 96 more goals in 330 more games. 

Relax man, Pettersson is tracking GREAT.

 

Fuck the allstar game, Patrice Bergeron AS-4 was his best. I'd take him on my team every day of the year over super star AS-1 McDavid. 6 AS-1, 2 AS-2 and AS-3 Allstar berths have won him nothing so far and his run to the cup was luck. They got there and blew it in the first 3 games and left themselves with a near impossible series deficit to overcome. 

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Ummmm dude stay on point, you want to talk about offence and why Pettersson isnt putting up Mackinnon numbers... I showed you why. 300 minutes more TOI and 174 more offensive zone starts. Possession is largely based off of a faceoff its how the game starts, its how each play starts, with a faceoff and its difficult to regain possession. If faceoffs didnt matter, you wouldnt be looking to get centre matchups that favor you, lefty vs righty, strong side vs weak side, line vs line. The faceoff is one of the most important parts of the game, getting possession. Think of how many whistles there are in a game. In game 7 there was 52 faceoffs, do you understand how much of an impact that has? that nearly 1 per minute. Thats a lot of exchanges of possession.  Secondly Mackinnon is relied on purely for offence, he has zero impact on the PK and the dzone, so no he is not relied on for everything, he is like every other 1 dimensional star player, offensive opportunities only. Powerplay, empty net and offensive zone faceoffs/extended shifts on tired legs.

 

Well you have to ask yourself that. The discussion was about Pettersson and you brought Mackinnon, Matthews, Crosby and Draisaitl into the fold. 

 

Those guys have all had much MUCH better players on their line. Look at their #1 linemates and the point production out of those guys. Give Mackinnon Mikheyev and Hoglander or a struggling Lindholm and see how well that line does. Probably not great. 

Pettersson is absolutely as good. He starts from the dzone 50% of the time. His point production is impacted by starting their first of all, secondly having 2 minutes less of ice time 5v5 and lastly shittier linemates. He was on pace to break 100pts up until the injury and the anchor that Mikheyev was. 

 

I get that and I am showing you and the rest of the readers that they cant expect 100pts if he is getting 13mins 5v5 TOI thats Jake Virtanen fuckin numbers. Not only that but he is starting his shifts 50/50 dzone vs ozone. There is no favorable zone start to give him extra opportunities to produce. They want him out their in all situations, literally all situations because Pettersson can handle the dzone, he can help kill penalties, he can score, he can make plays, he can do everything, they have sacrificed offence for defense.

We werent talking about JT its been about Pettersson and yes JT is a fucking warrior and one of my favorite players. 

Pettersson deserved Hart recognition in 2022-23. That was the season he learned to become a true pro. I'm not sure if you recall, but after 2020-21 he rehabbed his wrist, took an extended vacation and showed up to camp last minute and then had a horrendous 42 game start to the season that held the entire team back from playoffs because he took waaaay too long to get going. He learned a valuable lesson from that season and showed up to camp EARLY and was like a bat out of hell for 2022-23, last season he was once again back early and started out wither nearly 2pts per game for the first 15 games of the season, then he tapered off slightly and his linemates struggled and he got injured and his production took a hit. Look how long it took JT to become who he is, took him til he was 28 years old to truly become an elite player. 

Okay, you clearly glanced over what I wrote about the Hart. Please go back and read if you dont mind. 

Secondly EP is playing in a high tax market, Barkov is playing in a no tax state. Its unfair to compare Barkov being paid less when his take home is probably higher than Petterssons. 

What is your definition of a top 5C, please enlighten me, because Jack Hughes hasnt found the Dzone yet.

 

You are ignoring the biggest factor in producing, extra opportunities. 

As I will once again refer back to Mackinnon he had 300 more minutes of ice time 5v5, which you can bet was mostly offensive deployment either off the rush or part of those 174 extra faceoffs. THATS MASSIVE. If you take Pettersson's TOI 13.4 minutes or whatever the fuck it was and just divide 300 by that, you'll get an additional 23pts which puts Pettersson at 112pts. JUST from ice time based off his production. Does that please you? You cant rag on a guy who doesnt get the extra opportunities, is playing injured, being used as full 200ft player and with shittier linemates. No one was crying about his production the first half of the season. It was the 2nd half where something was clearly wrong. 

Jack Hughes is not a 2way player. Not used as one and probably never will be. None of the guys you want to use to compare kill penalties. Not only that guys like Point and Barkov have so much more talent on their lines and 60%+ offensive zone starts!!

 

Pettersson is not relied upon entirely for offence, he is distributed evenly in both ends of the ice and in his limited 5v5 time he has very little time to waste. His points per 60 is 2.6. Its right there with Crosby, Draisaitl etc. Mackinnon had a monster season with 3.4pts/60 but thats because the guy is given so many more opportunities than anyone else. He is producing at the same rate, just less overall points based off his deployment and utilization such as PK and more defensive responsibilities. JT Miller atleast had a consistent 20-25goal scorer in Boeser.

 

 

You know what 144pts did for Kucherov, 140 for Mackinnon, 132 for McDavid, 120 for Panarin 110 for Pastrnak... NOTHING. they lost to a team with 1 guy over 90pts.

Barkov makes 9mil and has never broken 100pts and only broken 90tpts once. You know why?? Because Barkov is used 50/50. Barkov is in my opinion the best 2way player in the game. He's paid like one, doesnt produce like one and isnt used the same as one. Just because your production from a player is lower, doesnt mean they are not as good, it all comes down to how they are used. Our team uses Petey in both ends, just the same as FLA does with Barkov. A lot of these other teams, forgo defense and focus on offence with their top Cs and they have a second line to deal with defensive duties. 

JT Miller was also HEALTHY and had Boeser on his line almost all season. Quality of competition vs quality of linemates.....OH and once again health, something you seem to be ignoring over and over. 

Pettersson has had great seasons being one of the only stars on the team his first couple seasons. He has had better seasons earlier in his career than guys like Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Barkov, Miller. Pettersson is 25. Barkov isnt even a point per game player in his career and only 96 more goals in 330 more games. 

Relax man, Pettersson is tracking GREAT.

 

Fuck the allstar game, Patrice Bergeron AS-4 was his best. I'd take him on my team every day of the year over super star AS-1 McDavid. 6 AS-1, 2 AS-2 and AS-3 Allstar berths have won him nothing so far and his run to the cup was luck. They got there and blew it in the first 3 games and left themselves with a near impossible series deficit to overcome. 

It's not the all-star game.  It's a vote for who's the best (2nd, 3rd, 4, and 5th) by position at the end of the year at the same time hardware is voted for.    All-star games stopped meaning anything for me a very long time ago.    North America versus the World format and when they decided each team had to be represented like a participation ribbon, and much more deserving players weren't invited.  Also I only read the last paragraph.   EP isn't at McKinnon's level, not yet anyways. If we had him instead, we'd of won a cup last season of whatever it was EP was trying to do.   Maybe one day EP will get there.   Sure wish you got to watch All-Star games that meant something, a full game of best on best without any gimmicks.   Since they stopped that, they shouldn't even keep records for whatever it is that you'd call that.   Owen Nolan doing his Babe Ruth impression, was the last time the all-star game worth anything.    Have fun!  

 

Also Barkov makes 10.   Add 5% (500k for cap going up and another 900k for taxes)... And still takes home more then EP.     Barkov plays second line the same as EP, but shuts down the best in the world, and so far has managed a lot more then EP.  96 points, at 23.  Said he's EP best comp, him or Aho anyways, so far Barkov >> career, and check out who he plays with.   He gets the leftovers just like EP had last year, since the Mathew's trade anyways. 

 

  That's a huge compliment to EP.   I won't bother with McKinnon and McDavid.   Or Draistalts. Or Mathew's, here's a screenshot of Barkov and EPs accolades to date.     Two years in a row front runner for the Smythe doesn't show up either. 

Barkov is so much better than EP in his own end, and his high light reel is sick, Datsyuk with Jagr's trunk, you won't see him falling all over himself 10 times a game.     And since the Mathew's trade, does the second line (like EP) with his Mikheyev/Kuzemenko's.  
 

BTW Barkov is one of my favourite non-Canucks and has been for years.   During his contract predictions, was within 100k of where his deal ended up.   And kept saying over and over again, that EPs somewhere around Barkov on the high end, and Aho on the low end.  When Mathew's got his UFA pay day, some were freaking out and using 12-13 as their ranges.   I still think it's too much, but can't help the tax equation.   No all players (JT Miller) are willing to take a pay cut.  EP most certainly did not.    His agent agreed he'd be looking at something like MT (9.5 no state tax) after his 100 point season.   EP stormed out of the gate, cooled off, heated up a little before the all-star break then was on a 50-60 point pace down the stretch.    And in the playoffs.    

 

Watched too many players not meet expectations, and others surprise to say it's a foregone conclusion.   Personally feel for EP it comes down to commitment in the gym, same as last season.    Also wish we had Lindholm, and let EP go of his center duties.    Lindholm was a playoff beast in comparison.    Hit everything that moved, didn't get out muscled, and his goals mattered.   EPs lone PP let a lot of steam out of the building.    I'd rather have great post season players, than great regular season ones.   Barkov and MckInnon are beyond reproach, Draisatl too aside from post Myers hit and his crybaby antics.   Was on his was to demolishing Reggie's record two post seasons ago.    

 

I'm cautiously optimistic he's still got the potential.   If he follows Naslund and the Sedins career arc, he will end up challenging for the Art Ross, Hart and Pearson for 3-6 years in a row.    The Sedins figured it out post lockout around EPs current age, and kept it going with one boffo season each, until 33 or so.    Naslund five years with 3 otherworldly, best LW in hockey.     As for McKinnon, since Kadri left, they have a gaping hole down the middle, and he can manage those types of minutes.   Few forwards can manage those types of minutes.   COL relies heavily on their superstar forward.    Like Crosby, Ovi, McDavid, he's likely going to be looked back on as generational.   Mathew's too if he can add playoff success to his resume.    He's also had a tough time translating to post season play.   Schenn was as Keefe said, the difference maker in getting past the first round.   Takes a team for sure. 

 

EPs a top ten center.  There is a platoon of guys like Eichel, Zinbanejad,  JT Miller,  Point, Stamkos (also plays wing, but the majority of career center), Aho, and Barkov up and done year to year.   But steadily consistent.   Aho is also an excellent two-way center, who puts the puck in the net.    There is nothing wrong with EP being part of that group of guys.    We are fortunate enough to having two great centers.    Sucks that cap makes things tough to create the right balance.     Hopefully Lekkermaki is also a very good player, and EP gets to play with two top six players soon.  

 

Edited August 17 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

34 minutes ago, IBatch said:

All-star games stopped meaning anything for me a very long time ago.

Hey I protest!  John Garrett almost won the "star" of the game one NHL allstar game until Gretzky decided he really wanted to win that truck (prize for that award).

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Hey I protest!  John Garrett almost won the "star" of the game one NHL allstar game until Gretzky decided he really wanted to win that truck (prize for that award).

Until the late 90's, used to circle the all-star game on the calendar.   We didn't get Olypmics with NHLers/pros so it was the best you could get on a regular basis (Canada Cups were awesome, 87 and 96 is an awfully long time to get to see that though).    Growing up with Habs,NYI and then EDM sending half their roster (or so it seemed), and the Conferences battling it out was the best format i've seen.    And well Garrett forever remembers, because back then a truck for sure meant something!   It was a few months wages for some of these guys, instead of a half a period (or a game).   Times have changed.    The skills competition was added value,  but a full 60 minutes 5 x 5 was fun too, the teams were simply loaded with real stars, and teams got representation based on who was the best.   EDM sent 10 players one year, in a 21 team league, yikes!   Sure would have been neat to see what a 23 year old Gartner have clocked in at, instead of the commish's choice at 37 schooling a field full of speedsters (a dozen guys had 13.5 laps either in the qualifiers, something else they used to do, or during the event itself).   13.386 stood a long time as full course standing lap.  

Edited August 17 by IBatch

[bh90]

On 8/15/2024 at 10:28 AM, Devron said:

Horvat was lowballed in the summer. 7 million would have gotten in done. Thats where the contract should have been, instead he was offered 5 million and so the bad taste lingered and I believe Bo went on a scoring rampage as part of that. A FU to management. Which it is what it is. It’s not so much greedy Bo as it was a “I’ll show you” it worked out for the Islanders although they’ll forever be mediocre scratching for that 8th spot. For Bo he gets to be the guy on the island as much as he wanted to remain a Canuck 

F Horvat. 100% He held the team back with his "participation medal" attitude. When he is captain the team was soft, the crowd was soft. We'd constantly lose and he'd tell us they played a good game and was proud of the guys all the time on how they responded. 

 

Punt Horvat out and look at how the fire came out. Horvat wad a cucumber roll, now we're a spicy avocado tuna tataki roll.

 

No wonder Horvat did well in the bubble playoffs. He probably was motivated by hearing a pin drop in the stands.

[Snoop Hogg]

We’re not getting Crosby. If hell freezes over and we do get him, I’ll shit in my hat.