Jasper decimated by fire, up to 50% of the town is gone.

[Vancan]

3 minutes ago, Barnstorm said:

I don’t think we have the infrastructure in place to go electric full bore … yet. The entire world currently functions through carbon based fuels although progress in weening off is increasing. 
 

Recent statistics in BC indicate fires caused by people are declining so that may be a step in the right direction. The whole key to reducing fires is to stop them when they’re small.  

 Perhaps heavy investment in means of detection, an increase in aerial equipment and night ops would help in getting them before they develop into monsters. 
 

I don’t profess to have the answers , just my own opinions and thoughts. 
 

 

Not going there with the fossil fuels. But kinda agree. 

 

However your other opinions and thoughts make sense. There were what are called zombie fires brewing all winter. The arial equipment and night opps, heat detecting stuff may help with that. 

However it cant detect lighting strikes, nor should they fly in those conditions. Not saying don't do that, you cant ever have enough defense. 

[Spur1]

5 minutes ago, Barnstorm said:

This seems like a strange reply to my post. What exactly about my post suggests I’m unaware of the size of forested land?

 

Seems it would be like me suggesting I’m not sure you understand how much  the would relies on carbon based fuel. I’m not suggesting it won’t change, going to take time.

And I’m saying it will be a lot quicker to stop using fossil fuels than it will be trying to mitigate fires. We are quickly getting to the point of peeing on a barn fire. We must deal with climate change. 

[Barnstorm]

1 minute ago, Vancan said:

Not going there with the fossil fuels. But kinda agree. 

 

However your other opinions and thoughts make sense. There were what are called zombie fires brewing all winter. The arial equipment and night opps, heat detecting stuff may help with that. 

However it cant detect lighting strikes, nor should they fly in those conditions. Not saying don't do that, you cant ever have enough defense. 

Lightning can be mapped in real time. Thousands of strikes in a few hours can be accurately pinpointed on a map. Aircraft are designed to tolerate lightning strikes and common do. Inspections are required following a strike however damage is usually negligible. 
 

I agree , we simply don’t have enough defense. More planes, helicopters , rap attack crew’s etc are needed to even begin to put a dent in this problem. Perhaps bumping up the logging industry and changing methods to increase fire breaks could provide some relief. 

[Barnstorm]

9 minutes ago, Spur1 said:

And I’m saying it will be a lot quicker to stop using fossil fuels than it will be trying to mitigate fires. We are quickly getting to the point of peeing on a barn fire. We must deal with climate change. 

One positive is that fires are for the most part seasonal (zombies excluded) whereas fossil fuels are relied upon 24/7 365. 
 

As far as I know we are dealing with climate change . It just can’t happen as fast as we need or would like. 
 

 

ETA: anyways I’m out. It’s been a slice. 

Edited July 26 by Barnstorm
Nighty night. Lol.

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Warhippy said:

OK full stop im about to get banned here

 

Anyone posting ANYTHING regarding this blaze from Keanne Bexte is; IN MY OPINION ONLY a fucking idiot.  Keane Bexte doesn't know the first thing about wildfire training and or mitigation.  Taking anything regarding wildfires or wildfire fighting from him is like asking a blind and deaf individual to drive your kids to school and defending their right to do so

 

He is a fucking idiot period.  He has no idea what he is talking about.

 

Wildfire services are and have been the sole responsibility of the provinces since the early 70s.  To suggest that this is Trudeaus fault is nothing more than partisan fuckery and people trying to score cheap political points off of the decimation of yet another canadian town to a wildfire is fucking sad.

 

There are literally hundreds of people homeless, a national parks crown jewel town is gone.  Golden is on the front line and this fucking idiot is whining on twitter and people who have never shoved a spade in to a fucking ounce of dirt on a fire line think hes smart for it.

 

Get fucked.

 

Bottom line.  PROVINCES are in charge of wildfire management, fighting and forestry practices END FUCKING ARGUMENT.  I have personally fought on a line making the century mark.  I have spent almost 10+ years cataloguing and photographing BC wildfire services on the front lines and post blaze mapping.  

 

Unless anyone can honestly come forward with the same god damned resume, and has opened their doors to anyone now homeless due to this blaze, I will say that shoving Keane bexte who is the firefighting equivalent of an idiot blocking traffic to take a nice photo for the gram forward as some sort of voice of reason is just fucking ridiculous.

 

This has been a tragedy.  This has nothing to do with the liberals.  it has very little to do with the federal government.

 

if you want to actually do this and point fingers, blame the municipality of Jasper, the province of alberta and the individuals who refuse to manage their own property to help reduce and mitigate the severity of and risk of an urban interface fire.

 

Every GD year I deal with this, or someone whining about the martin mars, or some idiot with a drone in the sky as a fire boss 6 team tries to make a pass over a line of containment, or some hero who tries to get behind the lines to get some "good photos" or "check on a friends place" 

 

If this gets me escorted out of here fine.  I don't care.  My entire social media feed has bene lit up all day from halfwits who think this is Trudeaus fault and keep shoving the same 3 tweets from Bexte on their timelines like he has a fucking clue.

Stop it.

 

Just stop.

 

Stop the partisan idiocy, open your doors to people now homeless, give them a place to stay clothing food anything.  Be a decent fucking human being for once in your life instead of trying to make hay out of this.  Our fucking neighbours are suffering and you people are making some sort of smug point that isn't even remotely close to being factual but you don't care because you can't conceive a single moment of a day where the government isn't the fault of your entire life's issues.

 

Seriously, knock it off and give it at least a fucking day before you start lgrabbing your ignorant pitchforks.

 

My heart goes out to the people who have not only lost their homes, but irreplaceable, precious belongings, such as family photos and the like. 

 

However I am in total agreement with you about people who piss and moan, blaming others, while never having been on the frontline fighting a bushfire.

 

I have been involved a few times fighting bushfires.

Back in 83, the black Wednesday fires.

A few of us had our escape route cut off, things were looking grim for a few hours.

In the end we did manage to get out. 

 

Then there was the black saturday fires in 2009.

40 minutes from my farm, 120 people were killed that day in Kinglake alone. 

I got to Yarra Glen and jumped on a fire truck with a crew and we couldn't even get near the town. 

We ended up keeping the road to Yea open, fighting spot fires. 

 

What I will never forget is how quickly a fire can jump.

That day in Kinglake there were 80-100 KMH wind gusts.

It was the second hottest day on record in Melbourne, after days of over 40c.

The fires literally spawned their own weather systems.

 

My thoughts are with those who have lost everything, and the heroes who are putting their lives on the line fighting these fires.

[bishopshodan]

Jasper is beautiful.

What a sad story. Its going to happen more and more as time goes by.

The data is in and it's not looking great for us humans.

 

Mom's gonna fix it all soon
Mom's comin' 'round to put it back the way it ought to be

 

 

[Bob Long]

We build right up against forests and in flood zones, and act surprised when we have fires and flooding.

 

@Warhippy has provided good info on who's responsible when it all hits the fan, but unless we get serious about prevention we will all be back next year saying what a shame.

 

[Heretic]

12 hours ago, stawns said:

 

Pretty weak excuse?  Do you think Albertans are going to elect a government that raises taxes?  A job that big is going to cost tens of millions of dollars, maybe hundreds.

 

I'm all for it, but doubtful most are

Maybe they can use money from all the carbon tax they collect - after all, a burning forest and/or a town contributes to green house gases.  

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Heretic said:

Maybe they can use money from all the carbon tax they collect - after all, a burning forest and/or a town contributes to green house gases.  

 

Well 90% of the carbon tax goes back to Canadians as rebates, so there's really no pot of money there

[stawns]

12 hours ago, Dumb Nuck said:

Why there were warnings many years ago that this would happen and nothing was done, those that decided to do nothing need to justify their decisions.

 

Well, I guess the United Party has some explaining to do then

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

Well, I guess the United Party has some explaining to do then

 

I got yelled at for saying "too soon" when putting the focus on provincial responsibility, but yes this is the time to talk about it imo.

 

We love to pay out huge salaries for multiple layers of administration in our various ministries, with questionable benefit, but can't seem to find money to make fire prevention projects happen. 

 

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I got yelled at for saying "too soon" when putting the focus on provincial responsibility, but yes this is the time to talk about it imo.

 

We love to pay out huge salaries for multiple layers of administration in our various ministries, with questionable benefit, but can't seem to find money to make fire prevention projects happen. 

 

 

My grandfather was a bush pilot in the 50's and 60's and was drummed out of the forestry for standing up at meetings and telling them they were mismanaging their forests and were on the path to disaster.  Add to that mismanagement, a climate disaster in the making and we're looking at why were seeing full towns eliminated every summer 

 

I'm all for spending money on forest management.........I'd actually love to see that as a priority for the military on a federal level 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

My grandfather was a bush pilot in the 50's and 60's and was drummed out of the forestry for standing up at meetings and telling them they were mismanaging their forests and were on the path to disaster.  Add to that mismanagement, a climate disaster in the making and we're looking at why were seeing full towns eliminated every summer 

 

I'm all for spending money on forest management.........I'd actually love to see that as a priority for the military on a federal level 

 

isn't it more of a municipal and provincial challenge tho? we waste millions in senior admin salaries in education e.g., take some of that and reallocate it to a prevention budget. No one would miss a few of those 400k salaries. 

[stawns]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

isn't it more of a municipal and provincial challenge tho? we waste millions in senior admin salaries in education e.g., take some of that and reallocate it to a prevention budget. No one would miss a few of those 400k salaries. 

 

I think it needs to be a partnership.........an acknowledgement of the reality of the climate situation were in.  Obviously the provinces have neither the resources or the manpower to tackle this situation.  They're basically playing whackamole with forest fires

 

Why not train the military to do the work in the forests to fight forest fires, they're already in service and being paid.......convert older aircraft to fight forest fires etc etc.  they can also provide the same manpower and equipment to prevrntion

 

provinces can provide the planning, coordination, administration etc in both preventing and fighting fires.

 

Something has to change, we can't just keep watching entire towns disappear every summer.

 

As far as taking money from other areas, that's just robbing peter to pay Paul.  I'm all for cutting senior admin positions and salaries, but that money needs to stay in the education system.

[Gurn]

What saddens me the most is, the likely hood of any  positive  change coming out of this is minimal.

going to be a bunch of people bitching about this tragedy, then in 2 days, nothing.

probably going to be people that will vote down and/or talk down any possible change as "what's the point now,  the fire burned everything".

 

'https://globalnews.ca/news/9754882/what-starts-wildfires/#:~:text=Wildfires typically start either from lightning or from,Canada%2C but the majority of cases are human-caused.

Wildfires typically start either from lightning or from human activity, according to fire expert and Queen’s University fellow Edward Struzik.

Struzik said that lightning ignites between a third to a half of the fires seen in Canada, but the majority of cases are human-caused.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Take a look at the fires map of Canada- and imagine half of them not being in existence, because people didn't start half of them.

This pic is from 2 weeks ago- but you might get the idea

 

------------------------

half the fires never happening, will in effect double the available response to the fires that occur due to natural causes.

 

----------------------

Nope- fuck all going to change.

 

[bolt]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/jasper-national-park-research-fire-1.4612320

 

It's easier to just blame climate change than actually do the work to climate proof communities.  The "experts" were aware of the danger and decidided to do very little.

Edited July 26 by bolt

[Gurn]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

Why not train the military to do the work in the forests to fight forest fires, they're already in service and being paid.......convert older aircraft to fight forest fires etc etc.  they can also provide the same manpower and equipment to prevention

1- the military does assist in fires, when called on

2- there is currently a shortage of military personnel, to the point that the navy has trouble crewing the ships they have, let alone the ones being built.

Note- short of employees is a problem every where, so it's not -'oh nobody wants to join the current guy's military" as some would try to say.

 

I'm all for  some 'national fast response' teams being available- like 500 people, in each of 5-10 locations, being able to get to any disaster area within 8 hours-but that gets expensive quickly- and people will bitch about their taxes.

-------------------------------------------

you lived through a very, very, scary  fire situation, just a few years back; what change have you seen, in your area  since then?

Likely F all, but a lot of bitching and roadblocks to positive change.

 

[DSVII]

11 hours ago, Barnstorm said:

In 2017 Catherine Mckenna, the Liberal Minister of Environment and Climate Change acknowledged she was aware of the tinder box in Jasper and assured all Canadians the Liberal Government was “absolutely committed and working hard “ to preserve Canada’s park and specifically Jasper.

Does anyone know exactly what those responsible for the park accomplished to preserve it over the last 7 years? Canadians , especially those living, working in  and enjoying Jasper are asking. 

 

Obviously this is tragedy, no one needs to be reminded of that. 
 

Accountability would go a long way in preventing more of these disasters. 

 

Let's continue that accountability journey.

 

2019  Budget cuts claim Alberta's elite wildfire fighting unit -  

 

The UCP eliminated Alberta’s elite wildfire-fighting crew of 63 firefighters stationed across the province. The program had been in service for over 40 years. The UCP made the cuts and ignored warnings from experienced firefighters. Former members of the team say they believe they could have made a difference this year if the program had not been eliminated by the UCP.

 

Shortly after being elected to office in 2019, the UCP government shut down 26 active fire towers across Alberta, more than one-fifth of detection coverage in the province. Lookouts are responsible for a 40-kilometre radius of forest. Early detection and investigation of wildfires enables firefighters to put suppression plans in place before wildfires escalate into large-scale catastrophes.

 

2020 - Province cuts funding for firefighter training: Alberta Fire Chiefs Association 

AFCA executive director Fred Tyrrell said the cuts will have consequences down the road.

 

“A lot of our small rural volunteer fire departments are in municipalities that don’t have big pockets and the potential consequences are simple,” Tyrrell said.

 

“Those volunteers that have stepped up to provide what has to be seen as a specialized service that requires a lot of volunteer hours, they may no longer be able to get that training, because their own municipality may not be able to afford the training programs that this grant up until now has provided.”

 

2023 - ‘Alberta’s UCP Government Has Cut Tens of Millions of Dollars From Wildfire Preparedness Programs

In 2018-2019, according to government estimates, Alberta’s “wildfire management,” budget was $130 million. In the 2019-2020 budget, the UCP itself boasted to the Edmonton Journal, Alberta’s wildfire management budget was $117.6 million.

 

And by 2022-2023, the province’s budget estimates reduced its “wildfire management” to $100.5 million. It is projected to fall again to $100.4 million in 2023-2024.

All told, that’s a $30 million cut, against rising inflation.

 

Parkland Institute Executive Director Ricardo Acuna says budget cuts are hampering the province’s emergency resources.

 

“Those are the kinds of cuts that have a direct impact on the province’s ability to detect and effectively fight wildfires,” Acuna told PressProgress.

 

“They eliminated the province’s elite aerial attack wildfire fighting program – which stationed 63 firefighters in key areas who were trained and prepared to rappel from helicopters into wildfires to facilitate more efficient firefighting. Bases included Edson, Fox Creek, and Lac La Biche – areas dealing with out-of-control fires this year. In that same budget, the government closed 15 wildfire lookouts meant to provide early detection of fires.”

 

2024 - Would you fight Alberta's wildfires for $22/hour? And no benefits?

 

It's "hard for Alberta to bring people back" when workers could earn more working for B.C. or Parks Canada, AUPE vice-president James Gault told CBC News. 

Seasonal firefighters in Alberta start at $22.44/hour. The most a seasonal employee could earn in a leadership position, with years of experience, is $30.17/hour. In B.C., pay starts at $27.58/hour. Parks Canada fire crew members started at $29.94/hour in 2023; in 2024, starting wages are $30.52/hour. 

 

According to a 2019 internal retention survey of Alberta's seasonal wildland firefighters obtained by CBC News, a third of respondents cited a lack of benefits as the "greatest challenge wildfire management faces when hoping to increase retention rates." 

'Conditional' offers

Unlike some other wildfire agencies, such as Parks Canada and those in Northwest Territories, B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario, seasonal firefighters in Alberta receive no health benefits coverage. In April, Ontario said it would provide wildland firefighters with additional health coverage to include some types of cancers, heart injuries and PTSD — to bring benefits in line with what municipal firefighters are entitled to in that province. 

 

AUPE says it wants to see a similar extension to its wildland firefighters. "I would think that's almost secondary because we don't get any benefits," said Wigmore, who took a pay cut, and gave up the benefits, pension and job security she had as a permanent, year-round employee in Alberta for a job leading a unit on the front lines. 

 

 

Edited July 26 by DSVII

[King Heffy]

8 minutes ago, DSVII said:

 

Let's continue that accountability journey.

 

2019  Budget cuts claim Alberta's elite wildfire fighting unit -  

 

The UCP eliminated Alberta’s elite wildfire-fighting crew of 63 firefighters stationed across the province. The program had been in service for over 40 years. The UCP made the cuts and ignored warnings from experienced firefighters. Former members of the team say they believe they could have made a difference this year if the program had not been eliminated by the UCP.

 

Shortly after being elected to office in 2019, the UCP government shut down 26 active fire towers across Alberta, more than one-fifth of detection coverage in the province. Lookouts are responsible for a 40-kilometre radius of forest. Early detection and investigation of wildfires enables firefighters to put suppression plans in place before wildfires escalate into large-scale catastrophes.

 

2020 - Province cuts funding for firefighter training: Alberta Fire Chiefs Association 

AFCA executive director Fred Tyrrell said the cuts will have consequences down the road.

 

“A lot of our small rural volunteer fire departments are in municipalities that don’t have big pockets and the potential consequences are simple,” Tyrrell said.

 

“Those volunteers that have stepped up to provide what has to be seen as a specialized service that requires a lot of volunteer hours, they may no longer be able to get that training, because their own municipality may not be able to afford the training programs that this grant up until now has provided.”

 

2023 - ‘Alberta’s UCP Government Has Cut Tens of Millions of Dollars From Wildfire Preparedness Programs

In 2018-2019, according to government estimates, Alberta’s “wildfire management,” budget was $130 million. In the 2019-2020 budget, the UCP itself boasted to the Edmonton Journal, Alberta’s wildfire management budget was $117.6 million.

 

And by 2022-2023, the province’s budget estimates reduced its “wildfire management” to $100.5 million. It is projected to fall again to $100.4 million in 2023-2024.

All told, that’s a $30 million cut, against rising inflation.

 

Parkland Institute Executive Director Ricardo Acuna says budget cuts are hampering the province’s emergency resources.

 

“Those are the kinds of cuts that have a direct impact on the province’s ability to detect and effectively fight wildfires,” Acuna told PressProgress.

 

“They eliminated the province’s elite aerial attack wildfire fighting program – which stationed 63 firefighters in key areas who were trained and prepared to rappel from helicopters into wildfires to facilitate more efficient firefighting. Bases included Edson, Fox Creek, and Lac La Biche – areas dealing with out-of-control fires this year. In that same budget, the government closed 15 wildfire lookouts meant to provide early detection of fires.”

 

2024 - Would you fight Alberta's wildfires for $22/hour? And no benefits?

 

It's "hard for Alberta to bring people back" when workers could earn more working for B.C. or Parks Canada, AUPE vice-president James Gault told CBC News. 

Seasonal firefighters in Alberta start at $22.44/hour. The most a seasonal employee could earn in a leadership position, with years of experience, is $30.17/hour. In B.C., pay starts at $27.58/hour. Parks Canada fire crew members started at $29.94/hour in 2023; in 2024, starting wages are $30.52/hour. 

 

According to a 2019 internal retention survey of Alberta's seasonal wildland firefighters obtained by CBC News, a third of respondents cited a lack of benefits as the "greatest challenge wildfire management faces when hoping to increase retention rates." 

'Conditional' offers

Unlike some other wildfire agencies, such as Parks Canada and those in Northwest Territories, B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario, seasonal firefighters in Alberta receive no health benefits coverage. In April, Ontario said it would provide wildland firefighters with additional health coverage to include some types of cancers, heart injuries and PTSD — to bring benefits in line with what municipal firefighters are entitled to in that province. 

 

AUPE says it wants to see a similar extension to its wildland firefighters. "I would think that's almost secondary because we don't get any benefits," said Wigmore, who took a pay cut, and gave up the benefits, pension and job security she had as a permanent, year-round employee in Alberta for a job leading a unit on the front lines. 

 

 

No reason we couldn't partner with a southern hemisphere country like Australia and create some year round positions with job security.  Share the expense and keep experienced firefighters.

[stawns]

13 minutes ago, Gurn said:

1- the military does assist in fires, when called on

2- there is currently a shortage of military personnel, to the point that the navy has trouble crewing the ships they have, let alone the ones being built.

Note- short of employees is a problem every where, so it's not -'oh nobody wants to join the current guy's military" as some would try to say.

 

I'm all for  some 'national fast response' teams being available- like 500 people, in each of 5-10 locations, being able to get to any disaster area within 8 hours-but that gets expensive quickly- and people will bitch about their taxes.

-------------------------------------------

you lived through a very, very, scary  fire situation, just a few years back; what change have you seen, in your area  since then?

Likely F all, but a lot of bitching and roadblocks to positive change.

 

 

Imo, the military should have a civil service branch, one that exclusively takes on jobs like fire prevention and suppression, natural disasters etc etc

[DSVII]

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

No reason we couldn't partner with a southern hemisphere country like Australia and create some year round positions with job security.  Share the expense and keep experienced firefighters.

 

For sure. I remember during last years fires there was a good number of Australian and New Zealand firefighters coming here. 

[Joe King]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

No reason we couldn't partner with a southern hemisphere country like Australia and create some year round positions with job security.  Share the expense and keep experienced firefighters.

I like this idea. The positions would be more like a trade instead of just a part time job. Not every person hired would have to move back and forth between countries. Just the ones wanting a full time career the rest could be seasonal workers like students. The experience gained by the full time workers would be massive. 

[Satchmo]

24 minutes ago, bolt said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/jasper-national-park-research-fire-1.4612320

 

It's easier to just blame climate change than actually do the work to climate proof communities.  The "experts" were aware of the danger and decidided to do very little.

Blame both.  Climate change caused by human action and resultant damage caused by human inaction.  

[bolt]

7 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Blame both.  Climate change caused by human action and resultant damage caused by human inaction.  

The environmentalists didn't want to backburn and protect the community.  When you have a bunch of dead forest caused by the pine beetle you have to act. 

 

The problem with the left wing movement is their soley blaming climate change. 

Edited July 26 by bolt

[stawns]

6 minutes ago, bolt said:

The environmentalists didn't want to backburn and protect the community.  When you have a bunch of dead forest caused by the pine beetle you have to act. 

 

The problem with the left wing movement is their soley blaming climate change.