Active (or Waiting Period) Players Set for the Hall of Fame...

[wai_lai416]

On 8/26/2024 at 4:55 PM, IBatch said:

oYes he broke out his 8th season.  Started at 20.   Sure you could say his 7th maybe, 37 goals and 61 points.  18 goals in 45 games followed up by 24 and 25 isn't breaking out.   Had 42 points in a full season at 26.  Not inspiring.    Think you need to find another guy to debate this with, I'm saying he's likely going to the HHOF.   And pointing  that both Miller broke out before he did.   TOI is telling too,  Marchand's minutes weren't exactly top line until they were.   Made sense too, given whom else was on the team then.   He also had to work his way up.   Way I see it, JT Miller is ahead of the game a bit at the same age ... so why can't he also achieve the same things?  He's a center not a winger.   Another 95-103 campaign next season, another big step.    Marchand is likely got a couple good years left then retirement phase but that's enough.    How's that not respect? 

 

JT Millers 2 best seasons > then Marchands.   And he's still got time to add more.  Without Pasta and Bergeron. 

Well let’s wait and see I don’t think Miller will get in the hof or come even close without a final or possibly a cup along with minimum 1k points 

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

Well let’s wait and see I don’t think Miller will get in the hof or come even close without a final or possibly a cup along with minimum 1k points 

Maybe not a cup, but for sure some long runs and some heroics by Miller.   Brock had an epic goal last post season.   If the club is just starting a run of 6 consecutive playoffs,  and don't blow it in the first round in any of them, that should go a long way.    For sure also needs one more 99-103 plus point effort too.   That will cement him as an all-time great Canuck at least.    A lot of HHOFers got in for different reasons.    He'd need to be like Marchand or Pavelski, as in continue to peak as an older player, and be healthy plus have longevity.    

 

Personally thought he'd had his best season during the Bruce Bump.    Horvat was taking on some heavy minutes and competition (EP struggled mightily at times, demoted to the third line for a spell even) too.   Last year, he was tasked to take on the McDavids, McKinnons, Mathew's, Kucherov's of the league, didn't have the same support down the middle, and basically kicked butt.   If he can match that a couple more times he inches closer.   If Marchand could do it, why not Miller?    Liked his game when he played for NYR.    Figured we'd just added another Horvat (nothing wrong with that) with more spice and a better pass.    

 

Hockey is weird that way.   Hart votes on a non-playoff team is quite the compliment.    Like to see if he keeps adding those,  from where i'm sitting, 3 more years of that pushes him along.    The HHOF has a lot of guys who never or rarely got Hart votes.    Some get in based on longevity.    For sure there is a broad range, and the bar was lowered quite some time ago.   Cups with 32 teams means a lot of guys won't ever sniff them, even if they are much better players then those who are lucky enough to win one or a few.    Who on Vegas is going to the HHOF?   Stone and maybe Alex P?   Is anyone in St. Louis going.  Maybe O'Reilly, if he wasn't on that team, doubt it though. 

[wai_lai416]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Maybe not a cup, but for sure some long runs and some heroics by Miller.   Brock had an epic goal last post season.   If the club is just starting a run of 6 consecutive playoffs,  and don't blow it in the first round in any of them, that should go a long way.    For sure also needs one more 99-103 plus point effort too.   That will cement him as an all-time great Canuck at least.    A lot of HHOFers got in for different reasons.    He'd need to be like Marchand or Pavelski, as in continue to peak as an older player, and be healthy plus have longevity.    

 

Personally thought he'd had his best season during the Bruce Bump.    Horvat was taking on some heavy minutes and competition (EP struggled mightily at times, demoted to the third line for a spell even) too.   Last year, he was tasked to take on the McDavids, McKinnons, Mathew's, Kucherov's of the league, didn't have the same support down the middle, and basically kicked butt.   If he can match that a couple more times he inches closer.   If Marchand could do it, why not Miller?    Liked his game when he played for NYR.    Figured we'd just added another Horvat (nothing wrong with that) with more spice and a better pass.    

 

Hockey is weird that way.   Hart votes on a non-playoff team is quite the compliment.    Like to see if he keeps adding those,  from where i'm sitting, 3 more years of that pushes him along.    The HHOF has a lot of guys who never or rarely got Hart votes.    Some get in based on longevity.    For sure there is a broad range, and the bar was lowered quite some time ago.   Cups with 32 teams means a lot of guys won't ever sniff them, even if they are much better players then those who are lucky enough to win one or a few.    Who on Vegas is going to the HHOF?   Stone and maybe Alex P?   Is anyone in St. Louis going.  Maybe O'Reilly, if he wasn't on that team, doubt it though. 

I think a big part to whether miller can keep up his production is whether or not the pp issue is resolved or they continue to struggle like they did post all star break and into the playoff. It was almost unwatchable. 40% of millers production relies on the pp. 

[Olli Juolevi]

On 8/22/2024 at 3:23 PM, Coconuts said:

Hmm, not sure Panarin is a lock if he retires tomorrow. Calder, WJC gold, Gagarin cup, World Championship silver and bronze. Not nothing, but hmm. 781 points in 672 games, but does he hit 1k games? 33 in October, one year left on his deal. Does he continue to produce how he has? I think he could get there but I question his accolades even if he has the point totals thus far.

I could be wrong here but it seems odd calling Panarin a lock and Marchand a maybe. If neither played another game in the NHL, I'd call Marchand more of a lock. More games, more points, SC champion. Even with a weaker p/gp I think his case is better. 

[Coconuts]

30 minutes ago, Olli Juolevi said:

I could be wrong here but it seems odd calling Panarin a lock and Marchand a maybe. If neither played another game in the NHL, I'd call Marchand more of a lock. More games, more points, SC champion. Even with a weaker p/gp I think his case is better. 

 

His hardware is more impressive, certainly. Ultimately it's probably the amount of international gold he's got on top of his cup win that'll get him in. I understand why some hockey fans, and Canucks fans in particular, don't like him but he's had a very impressive career. 

 

Cup, two world junior golds, u18 gold, world championship gold, world cup of hockey gold. All he's really missing is an Olympic gold but even then, if the league had been letting NHL players participate he'd probably have one of those too. 23 points in 25 games representing Canada at the junior level, 15 in 16 at the senior level, 138 points in 157 NHL playoff games, he's typically always been a guy who's shown up and produced when it matters. 

[Olli Juolevi]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

His hardware is more impressive, certainly. Ultimately it's probably the amount of international gold he's got on top of his cup win that'll get him in. I understand why some hockey fans, and Canucks fans in particular, don't like him but he's had a very impressive career. 

 

Cup, two world junior golds, u18 gold, world championship gold, world cup of hockey gold. All he's really missing is an Olympic gold but even then, if the league had been letting NHL players participate he'd probably have one of those too. 23 points in 25 games representing Canada at the junior level, 15 in 16 at the senior level, 138 points in 157 NHL playoff games, he's typically always been a guy who's shown up and produced when it matters. 

If NHL players went to the '18 and '22 Olympics he'd almost certainly have at least one Olympic Gold. It's tough to hold that against him. He doesn't have the scoring rate of Panarin but his total numbers will still be very good, plus like a dozen or more seasons of 20 goals, being an elite defensive forward and penalty killer, etc. 

 

I'm a rare Canucks fan who's a big Marchand fan so I could be biased here. 

[Coconuts]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Maybe not a cup, but for sure some long runs and some heroics by Miller.   Brock had an epic goal last post season.   If the club is just starting a run of 6 consecutive playoffs,  and don't blow it in the first round in any of them, that should go a long way.    For sure also needs one more 99-103 plus point effort too.   That will cement him as an all-time great Canuck at least.    A lot of HHOFers got in for different reasons.    He'd need to be like Marchand or Pavelski, as in continue to peak as an older player, and be healthy plus have longevity.    

 

Personally thought he'd had his best season during the Bruce Bump.    Horvat was taking on some heavy minutes and competition (EP struggled mightily at times, demoted to the third line for a spell even) too.   Last year, he was tasked to take on the McDavids, McKinnons, Mathew's, Kucherov's of the league, didn't have the same support down the middle, and basically kicked butt.   If he can match that a couple more times he inches closer.   If Marchand could do it, why not Miller?    Liked his game when he played for NYR.    Figured we'd just added another Horvat (nothing wrong with that) with more spice and a better pass.    

 

Hockey is weird that way.   Hart votes on a non-playoff team is quite the compliment.    Like to see if he keeps adding those,  from where i'm sitting, 3 more years of that pushes him along.    The HHOF has a lot of guys who never or rarely got Hart votes.    Some get in based on longevity.    For sure there is a broad range, and the bar was lowered quite some time ago.   Cups with 32 teams means a lot of guys won't ever sniff them, even if they are much better players then those who are lucky enough to win one or a few.    Who on Vegas is going to the HHOF?   Stone and maybe Alex P?   Is anyone in St. Louis going.  Maybe O'Reilly, if he wasn't on that team, doubt it though. 

 

I'd call O'Reilly a lock personally, at this point all he's gotta do is bump up his point totals a bit more, he's got all the hardware he needs. Lady Byng, cup, Conn Smythe, Selke,two world championship golds, world cup of hockey gold.. there are less decorated guys in the hall. That 2019 year alone gets him over the hump, but that was a helluva season for him. Even if he only finishes with 900-1.1kish points he's probably a lock. 771 points and three years left on his deal, if played with some of that high end talent Nashville acquired he'll get there. 

 

Couple cups, Olympic gold, Canada cup gold, world junior gold, world junior silver. 1k+ games played and 600+ points as a D. Pietrangelo is probably pretty close to being a lock. 

 

I don't think Stone will get the numbers needed, he's only put up 567 points in 640 games and he's entering his 32-33 season. A cup and a world championship are great accomplishments but his totals need a lot of work. But even if he does find a way to break the 1k mark his hardware would be a bit wanting if he doesn't add to it imo. Fantastic player but he'll probably land in the hall of very good. 

 

[Coconuts]

13 minutes ago, Olli Juolevi said:

If NHL players went to the '18 and '22 Olympics he'd almost certainly have at least one Olympic Gold. It's tough to hold that against him. He doesn't have the scoring rate of Panarin but his total numbers will still be very good, plus like a dozen or more seasons of 20 goals, being an elite defensive forward and penalty killer, etc. 

 

I'm a rare Canucks fan who's a big Marchand fan so I could be biased here. 

 

I'm not a Marchand fan per say, but I do respect how he really grew his game and toned down his rat business as he got older. I suppose the biggest part is that I've let go of 2011 and don't really hold a hockey grudge against him, I just can't be bothered to hold on to that forever. If one looks at Marchand's career objectively, it's been really impressive.

Edited August 28 by Coconuts

[DrJockitch]

19 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

I'm not a Marchand fan per se, but I do respect how he really grew his game and toned down his rat business as he got older. I suppose the biggest part is that I've let go of 2011 and don't really hold a hockey grudge against him, I just can't be bothered to hold on to that forever. If one looks at Marchand's career objectively, it's been really impressive.

Funny that the reasonable and mature perspective seems notable or unusual now. 
There are a few locks for the hall still playing. Clearly Crosby/Malkin and Letang should go on togetherish. Maybe with Flower. Kane will clearly be a lock as will Toews (debatable and distasteful as it may seem). Bergeron and Marchand clearly belong in, as much as I just don’t care for them, they are fantastic players that got better as they aged. 
Winning cups helps you get in. Being the lead 2 or 3 players of a dynasty team pretty much assures it.  Chicago and Pitts were definitely dynasty’s. What Boston has done since winning the cup is pretty incredible both in cup runs and regular season success.  
Oh my stomach it after writing those paragraphs. 

Hughes has put together the start of a HOF career he is on a clear path. 

[Coconuts]

23 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Funny that the reasonable and mature perspective seems notable or unusual now. 
There are a few locks for the hall still playing. Clearly Crosby/Malkin and Letang should go on togetherish. Maybe with Flower. Kane will clearly be a lock as will Toews (debatable and distasteful as it may seem). Bergeron and Marchand clearly belong in, as much as I just don’t care for them, they are fantastic players that got better as they aged. 
Winning cups helps you get in. Being the lead 2 or 3 players of a dynasty team pretty much assures it.  Chicago and Pitts were definitely dynasty’s. What Boston has done since winning the cup is pretty incredible both in cup runs and regular season success.  
Oh my stomach it after writing those paragraphs. 

Hughes has put together the start of a HOF career he is on a clear path. 

 

The Pittsburgh and Chicago guys are locks. Marchand will get in, Bergeron too, always liked Bergeron despite his being a Bruin, hard to not respect that playstyle. 

 

Hughes is off to a good start with his numbers, a Norris, and a WJC silver, he'll need to keep adding to it though although I suspect he probably will. Even if he never wins another Norris he's likely to pick up some more international hardware, he'll likely make every US team he's eligible for if he wants to play. Will he win a cup? That's anyone's guess, but given the number of teams in the league I suspect we'll see more guys get into the hall without cups as time goes on so long as they've got the individual/international hardware; that'll be skewed against guys from less high end hockey countries but what do ya do. This will probably ring all the more true after the NHL adds another two to four franchises, most guys don't win a cup, it's only going to become more elusive. 

[Olli Juolevi]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

 

I'm not a Marchand fan per say, but I do respect how he really grew his game and toned down his rat business as he got older. I suppose the biggest part is that I've let go of 2011 and don't really hold a hockey grudge against him, I just can't be bothered to hold on to that forever. If one looks at Marchand's career objectively, it's been really impressive.

I've come to like him for his interviews, willingness to be outspoken on sensitive issues, etc. Apparently he's awesome with his community back in Nova Scotia too. 

 

I still hate him for the dirty rat stuff he's done, but he's toned it down the past few years and the stuff above tips the scale for me.

[Coconuts]

11 minutes ago, Olli Juolevi said:

I've come to like him for his interviews, willingness to be outspoken on sensitive issues, etc. Apparently he's awesome with his community back in Nova Scotia too. 

 

I still hate him for the dirty rat stuff he's done, but he's toned it down the past few years and the stuff above tips the scale for me.

 

I do agree that it's worth pointing out that there's never really been anything negative to be said about him off the ice, a recent example of this is Bruin's leadership pushing back against management for signing Mitchell Miller. Big ups to Bergeron for that too. 

 

He has toned it down, and he really did transform himself in a superb two-way player, he was really quite dominant offensively for a stretch too. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

 

I'd call O'Reilly a lock personally, at this point all he's gotta do is bump up his point totals a bit more, he's got all the hardware he needs. Lady Byng, cup, Conn Smythe, Selke,two world championship golds, world cup of hockey gold.. there are less decorated guys in the hall. That 2019 year alone gets him over the hump, but that was a helluva season for him. Even if he only finishes with 900-1.1kish points he's probably a lock. 771 points and three years left on his deal, if played with some of that high end talent Nashville acquired he'll get there. 

 

Couple cups, Olympic gold, Canada cup gold, world junior gold, world junior silver. 1k+ games played and 600+ points as a D. Pietrangelo is probably pretty close to being a lock. 

 

I don't think Stone will get the numbers needed, he's only put up 567 points in 640 games and he's entering his 32-33 season. A cup and a world championship are great accomplishments but his totals need a lot of work. But even if he does find a way to break the 1k mark his hardware would be a bit wanting if he doesn't add to it imo. Fantastic player but he'll probably land in the hall of very good. 

 

A good example of two players ... I'd take Stone over O'Reilly personally, watching him on those Sens team sold me.    Took awhile for the league to take notice.    One of the best in the business defensively, not being a center goes against Selke, despite that got a lot of love maybe eventually, also for the Hart and rightly so.    A great leader too. 

 

Horvat handled O'Reilly, our entire team couldn't handle Stone in the bubble, well except Demko, who did a fabulous job.   Now he's broken, and yes agree he likely doesn't get in.   O'Reilly had one great season, Stone's been doing the same thing for close to a decade.      Like to see them both get in but would understand if they don't. 

 

Edit: 128 and 122 takeaways is gaudy, it's probably the best stat for Stone.    Really aside from Gretzky and a few others, i've never seen a guy so good at picking off pucks.   The hand eye and anticipation is just sick. 

Edited August 28 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

A good example of two players ... I'd take Stone over O'Reilly personally, watching him on those Sens team sold me.    Took awhile for the league to take notice.    One of the best in the business defensively, not being a center goes against Selke, despite that got a lot of love maybe eventually, also for the Hart and rightly so.    A great leader too. 

 

Horvat handled O'Reilly, our entire team couldn't handle Stone in the bubble, well except Demko, who did a fabulous job.   Now he's broken, and yes agree he likely doesn't get in.   O'Reilly had one great season, Stone's been doing the same thing for close to a decade.      Like to see them both get in but would understand if they don't. 

 

Edit: 128 and 122 takeaways is gaudy, it's probably the best stat for Stone.    Really aside from Gretzky and a few others, i've never seen a guy so good at picking off pucks.   The hand eye and anticipation is just sick. 

 

I'd probably take ROR, particularly because of his being a center. Being a very good defensive winger has worked against Stone, certainly. They're similar players, ROR's been a regular 55-60+ point guy since 2011-2012 and has had the odd year where he's put up points well into the 60's (and 70+ once); 69 points last season being his career second best. Stone's point totals are roughly the same, though he has one more 60+ point season to his credit thus far.

 

ROR will be 34 this coming season, Stone will be 33, the key difference between their careers thus far boils down to health. ROR's already played 1073 games and has three years left on his deal, he's typically been pretty durable so it's not farfetched that he could ultimately break 1300 games. Stone's struggled to stay healthy, only breaking 60 games played four times whereas ROR has twelve seasons of 70+ games played; Stone's total is 640 regular season games thus far. 

 

Horvat did, but that was also Horvat playing peak Horvat hockey, sometimes players get on a roll come playoff time and Bo certainly was. ROR had one great season, career high of 77 points, but his being able to stay healthy while playing a two-way game has allowed him to piece together more 50+ point seasons; he has eleven of these to Stone's eight. Stone's highest output thus far has been the 64 points he put up back in 2014-2015.

 

There's no denying that Stone is a premier two-way player but their difference in legacy will probably ultimately boil down to health. Give Stone some more healthy seasons and maybe he'd have a Selke or two and maybe two or three more hundred points. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

 

I'd probably take ROR, particularly because of his being a center. Being a very good defensive winger has worked against Stone, certainly. They're similar players, ROR's been a regular 55-60+ point guy since 2011-2012 and has had the odd year where he's put up points well into the 60's (and 70+ once); 69 points last season being his career second best. Stone's point totals are roughly the same, though he has one more 60+ point season to his credit thus far.

 

ROR will be 34 this coming season, Stone will be 33, the key difference between their careers thus far boils down to health. ROR's already played 1073 games and has three years left on his deal, he's typically been pretty durable so it's not farfetched that he could ultimately break 1300 games. Stone's struggled to stay healthy, only breaking 60 games played four times whereas ROR has twelve seasons of 70+ games played; Stone's total is 640 regular season games thus far. 

 

Horvat did, but that was also Horvat playing peak Horvat hockey, sometimes players get on a roll come playoff time and Bo certainly was. ROR had one great season, career high of 77 points, but his being able to stay healthy while playing a two-way game has allowed him to piece together more 50+ point seasons; he has eleven of these to Stone's eight. Stone's highest output thus far has been the 64 points he put up back in 2014-2015.

 

There's no denying that Stone is a premier two-way player but their difference in legacy will probably ultimately boil down to health. Give Stone some more healthy seasons and maybe he'd have a Selke or two and maybe two or three more hundred points. 

For sure.   Like Kesler, and Forsberg before him, the all out or all for nothing style came at a price.    Recently he's best known for LTIR darling...as for Horvat versus O'Reilly, O'Reilly was still prime O'Reilly, his line for sure was St.Louis's most noticeable in a good way.   NSH series, for sure you can see the decline from his peak.   Seemed a lot more mortal.    Pretty hard to pick a winger for a Selke, and i'd take Stone over Jere Lehtinen too.  One of the better collections of Selke candidate's Barkov, Bergeron, Stone, O'Reilly leading the charge.  

Edited August 28 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

20 hours ago, IBatch said:

For sure.   Like Kesler, and Forsberg before him, the all out or all for nothing style came at a price.    Recently he's best known for LTIR darling...as for Horvat versus O'Reilly, O'Reilly was still prime O'Reilly, his line for sure was St.Louis's most noticeable in a good way.   NSH series, for sure you can see the decline from his peak.   Seemed a lot more mortal.    Pretty hard to pick a winger for a Selke, and i'd take Stone over Jere Lehtinen too.  One of the better collections of Selke candidate's Barkov, Bergeron, Stone, O'Reilly leading the charge.  

 

It's taken a lot to win a Selke during Stone and ROR's career too, with the likes of Bergeron and Kopitar around. Some guys have had a death grip on it, and once they let go another guy does. For a while it was Datsyuk, then there were a couple one offs in Kesler and Toews, then it was the Kopitar and Bergeron show before a few more one offs in ROR, Couturier, and Barkov before Bergeron doubled up again. Hell, it took Bergeron retiring for Barkov to become more than a one off winner, he won his second this past season. 

 

Now it'll probably be the Barkov show going forward, he's entering his 29 year-old season and probably has at least a couple more Selke wins in him, the list of players who could win it over him is pretty small. Stone never had a chance against some of these guys as a winger, even if he'd managed to stay healthy. If not for Bergeron Kopitar would probably have 4-5 Selkes. 

Edited August 29 by Coconuts

[wai_lai416]

Damn just looking at some stats.. Marchand have a chance to finish top 5 overall in the nhl for short handed goals. Ok I’ll say Marchand is a lock for the hof 

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

Damn just looking at some stats.. Marchand have a chance to finish top 5 overall in the nhl for short handed goals. Ok I’ll say Marchand is a lock for the hof 

 

If he hit 1k points he'll be a lock imo, so he only needs about 70 points. Back to back 67 point seasons, suited up for 82 games last season, he's on track to be ready for the season after getting some stuff fixed.

 

 

 

[wai_lai416]

56 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

If he hit 1k points he'll be a lock imo, so he only needs about 70 points. Back to back 67 point seasons, suited up for 82 games last season, he's on track to be ready for the season after getting some stuff fixed.

 

 

 

antics aside.. it's actually quite incredible what he has accomplished in the league.. first thing that comes to mind when you mention his name sure as hell ain't a point producer or top 10 in short handed goals in nhl history.

[Coconuts]

13 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

antics aside.. it's actually quite incredible what he has accomplished in the league.. first thing that comes to mind when you mention his name sure as hell ain't a point producer or top 10 in short handed goals in nhl history.

 

He's definitely been one of the league's better defensive players, that's just been a tad overshadowed by his playing with one of the best two-way forwards ever most of the time

Edited September 3 by Coconuts

[IBatch]

On 9/3/2024 at 2:47 PM, Coconuts said:

 

He's definitely been one of the league's better defensive players, that's just been a tad overshadowed by his playing with one of the best two-way forwards ever most of the time

Playing with.   If you play with these guys, you also benefit.