If the Canucks had to trade either Hughes OR Pettersson who would you pick?

[spook007]

On 8/5/2024 at 11:37 PM, iceman1964 said:

How do you know Petey hasn't reached his peak already and that's it?  What if what we have saw out of him past and present is his max? I'm not saying it's bad, but what if that's it and the best we can do is get him premium linemates to make the best of what he has already?

We don't... but the likelihood of Petey playing at a higher level for longer is bigger... Petey is only 25 years old. Would be a huge surprise, if he had already reached his peak and would be down hill from now...

 

Miller is unlikely playing at his present level at the end of his contract, not many does.

 

Actually can't believe folks are already starting to turn a 25 year old kid, just because he got paid, had a half season at less than his normal production, and then he is past his peak? 

 

How was Miller at 25?

Edited August 6 by spook007

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, spook007 said:

We don't... but the likelihood of Petey playing at a higher level for longer is bigger... Petey is only 25 years old. Would be a huge surprise, if he had already reached his peak and would be down hill from now...

 

Miller is unlikely playing at his present level at the end of his contract, not many does.

 

Actually can't believe folks are already starting to turn a 25 year old kid, just because he got paid, had a half season at less than his normal production, and then he is past his peak? 

 

How was Miller at 25?

 

Miller had 47 points when he was 25.  Petey had 66 points as a 19 year old rookie...

[Captkirk888]

On 8/5/2024 at 4:10 PM, bishopshodan said:

If you had to get bare knuckle punched in the face by Mike Tyson in his prime, or kicked in the belly by a Mule...

 

Which would you pick?

Reminds me of an old joke….

A duck hunter shoots a duck and it lands in a farmer’s field. The hunter climbs the fence to retrieve the bird, but the farmer on his tractor sees this and gets to the duck first.

The hunters runs up and says ‘hey, that’s my duck’. 
The farmer says, ‘it landed in my field, it’s my duck’!
An argument ensues for a few minutes when the farmer says ‘I’ll tell ya what, we’ll have a contest to settle this’.

’What contest’ says the hunter?
The Farmer says ‘we will each kick one another in the balls as hard as we can, the one that gets up after the quickest gets the duck. I’ll go first’.

The hunter, who is much younger than the old farmer thinks about it for a second and quickly agrees.

The farmer swings his leg way back and delivers a massive kick to the hunters balls.

The hunter falls and rollers around for a minute, but quickly recovers.

He gets up panting ‘now it’s my turn’.

The farmer smirks and says ‘nah, you can have the duck’.

[iceman1964]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Miller had 47 points when he was 25.  Petey had 66 points as a 19 year old rookie...

You cannot judge them from that stat, Petey at his age stepped in and was given every chance to succeed at 19, as far as JTM was concerned, no way, guess who the head coach of the NHL team he was trying to crack? The same coach who refused to play our younger guys unless they were already proven and of course they weren't unless there were a whole bunch of injuries our younger guys hardly saw any ice time at all...

 I'm not saying Petey IF he has peaked is some sort of liability, hardly! Nor do I think his play would go down hill either, simply has way too much skill for that but how will he play when the chips are down as in the playoffs? I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he was indeed injured but the playoffs he did not seem confident at all and he wasn't playing bad per say but not to his normal confident self by a long shot.

 Maybe that was a bad case of nerves under such high pressure and next season under the same circumstances he will thrive, I sure hope so. 

 If he doesn't then.. what can we say? 

 If it was him injured and couldn't play very well so be it, he didn't look like he couldn't skate or shoot properly though, he just didn't look himself.. 

 For the sake of the team I truly HOPE it was a nagging injury that needed time to heal that wasn't available, if that's the case I'm pretty choked at whoever said put him on the ice and risk further injury to put future piece of the puzzle we're trying to put together in lieu of a better finish.. 

 Think you know what I mean.. 

Edited August 7 by iceman1964

[spook007]

3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Miller had 47 points when he was 25.  Petey had 66 points as a 19 year old rookie...

Exactly...

They are 2 different players, and while Miller now at the height of his prime perhaps brings more to the table, it would be foolish to think Petey won't be a 100point player for most of the next 7-8 years... 

 

You just don't let go of a player, who has been around a point per game his entire career incl. a 100 point seasons by the age of 25.

Nobody knows, what the future brings, but if you were to place a bet, I'd say Petey will have out produced Miller by some distance over the next 5 years, taking into account how players normally progress/regress throughout their careers...

 

Fun to think back to the discussions, when JR/PA chose Miller over Horvat... At that stage many were preferring Horvat, as he was younger than Miller... Millers contract won't age well etc. was a main topic... 

 

Luckily Miller has played so well, that folks now wonder, if he is a more valuable player the Petey... 

 

We are just extremely lucky to have both of these players at the same time... 

 

However, as much as I love Petey, if the question was between Petey and Hughes, I'd have to go with Hughes... you just don't find many players Hughes and he is only 24...

We are blessed....

 

I truly believe, we have a decent shot at a really long run this upcoming season. 

[iceman1964]

17 hours ago, spook007 said:

Exactly...

They are 2 different players, and while Miller now at the height of his prime perhaps brings more to the table, it would be foolish to think Petey won't be a 100point player for most of the next 7-8 years... 

 

You just don't let go of a player, who has been around a point per game his entire career incl. a 100 point seasons by the age of 25.

Nobody knows, what the future brings, but if you were to place a bet, I'd say Petey will have out produced Miller by some distance over the next 5 years, taking into account how players normally progress/regress throughout their careers...

 

Fun to think back to the discussions, when JR/PA chose Miller over Horvat... At that stage many were preferring Horvat, as he was younger than Miller... Millers contract won't age well etc. was a main topic... 

 

Luckily Miller has played so well, that folks now wonder, if he is a more valuable player the Petey... 

 

We are just extremely lucky to have both of these players at the same time... 

 

However, as much as I love Petey, if the question was between Petey and Hughes, I'd have to go with Hughes... you just don't find many players Hughes and he is only 24...

We are blessed....

 

I truly believe, we have a decent shot at a really long run this upcoming season. 

That was my original thought on Petey and Hughes, Hughes is one of those Dmem that come along a lot less than a guy like EP, although EP is a high end player which isn't up for debate because he clearly is, Hughes is one tier up without question. 

Who do you trade if you have to? 

 Depends on what your looking for, the best return would be Hughes but the biggest loss left behind you'd have to fill. 

 EP on the other hand would bring less of a return to whatever degree you want to label it but not as hard to replace purely out of position as forwards are a lot more plentiful rather than D obviously. Not to mention that from what we have all seen from Hughes so far, if there's one guy on our team without debate who hasn't reached his potential is Hughes, he just seems like a never ending sponge wanting to learn and get better, seems to do that every year. 

 Say what you will about Benning, but in my view, that was his best move in his tenure of GM.

 There is a subject that Canucks army brought up that I'm going to make a thread about considering Hughes pick

Edited August 7 by iceman1964

[Kevin Biestra]

Hughes is the more indispensable player and the rarer talent.  I was saying this a couple years ago when it was Elias who was the toast of the town.  Elias is still a heck of a player but right now I think Miller and Hughes are both better and we waited over 50 years for a Norris finalist, never mind a Norris winner.

[Kevin Biestra]

19 hours ago, spook007 said:

Exactly...

They are 2 different players, and while Miller now at the height of his prime perhaps brings more to the table, it would be foolish to think Petey won't be a 100point player for most of the next 7-8 years... 

 

You just don't let go of a player, who has been around a point per game his entire career incl. a 100 point seasons by the age of 25.

Nobody knows, what the future brings, but if you were to place a bet, I'd say Petey will have out produced Miller by some distance over the next 5 years, taking into account how players normally progress/regress throughout their careers...

 

I hope you're right about Petey's trajectory.  I just am always wary of the Ballad of Jimmy Carson, the Ballad of Barry Pederson, the Ballad of Joe Juneau etc.

[spook007]

12 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I hope you're right about Petey's trajectory.  I just am always wary of the Ballad of Jimmy Carson, the Ballad of Barry Pederson, the Ballad of Joe Juneau etc.

Yes but they are the exceptions to the rule... Most players do not top at the age of 24. 
But of course there is no guarentees and there is always the concern of injuries...

Edited August 8 by spook007

[Kevin Biestra]

39 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Yes but they are the exceptions to the rule... Most players do not top at the age of 24. 
But of course there is no guarentees and there is always the concern of injuries...

 

It is not that uncommon to peak by 24...  Wayne Babych (injuries), Ken Hodge Jr., Kjell Dahlin, Jonathan Cheechoo (25), Danny Gare (25), Andrew McBain, Dan Quinn, Darryl Sutter, Mikael Renberg, Mike Krushelnyski, Gary Suter, Randy Carlyle, Bobby Ryan, Patrik Laine (apparently) and in Canucks history Jim Benning, Rick Lanz, Dale Tallon (25), Jocelyn Guevremont, Dennis Ververgaert, Ron Sedlbauer...

 

 

Edited August 8 by Kevin Biestra

[spook007]

10 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

It is not that uncommon to peak by 24...  Wayne Babych (injuries), Ken Hodge Jr., Kjell Dahlin, Jonathan Cheechoo (25), Danny Gare (25), Andrew McBain, Dan Quinn, Darryl Sutter, Mikael Renberg, Mike Krushelnyski, Gary Suter, Randy Carlyle, Bobby Ryan, Patrik Laine (apparently) and in Canucks history Jim Benning, Rick Lanz, Dale Tallon (25), Jocelyn Guevremont, Dennis Ververgaert, Ron Sedlbauer...

 

 

Cheers, 

 

But still... Its far more likely you don't peak at 25. I think we can agree its more normal they don't peak at 25.

If it wasn't it would be insanity to extend anyone at the age of 25-26 for 7-8 years... But yes it is far from unheard off.

 

In Canucks history you name 6 and could probably find treble that number if you started looking properly, but out of the number of players that gone through the system it is still a relative small number... 

 

Also think we have to distinguish between peaking and injuries... But of course we could end up seeing Petey had peaked by now... However if I was a betting man, I would put my money on Petey continuing at this pace (point per game and above) for many years to come.

 

[IBatch]

On 8/7/2024 at 7:15 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I hope you're right about Petey's trajectory.  I just am always wary of the Ballad of Jimmy Carson, the Ballad of Barry Pederson, the Ballad of Joe Juneau etc.

Or our very own (for a short while) Nedved. 

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, spook007 said:

Cheers, 

 

But still... Its far more likely you don't peak at 25. I think we can agree its more normal they don't peak at 25.

If it wasn't it would be insanity to extend anyone at the age of 25-26 for 7-8 years... But yes it is far from unheard off.

 

In Canucks history you name 6 and could probably find treble that number if you started looking properly, but out of the number of players that gone through the system it is still a relative small number... 

 

Also think we have to distinguish between peaking and injuries... But of course we could end up seeing Petey had peaked by now... However if I was a betting man, I would put my money on Petey continuing at this pace (point per game and above) for many years to come.

 

Lots of players are very good for much longer...but I still don't think it's that rare to peak at or before 24 or 25.  Trevor Linden did.  (Stan Smyl, Tony Tanti and Petri Skriko for a few more major Canucks).

 

Wayne Gretzky did.  Obviously Gretzky had a lot more great hockey left in him...but that was where he peaked.  Same with Paul Coffey and Jari Kurri.  And Steve Yzerman and Dale Hawerchuk.

 

 

Edited August 9 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Lots of players are very good for much longer...but I still don't think it's that rare to peak at or before 24 or 25.  Trevor Linden did.  Wayne Gretzky did.  Obviously Gretzky had a lot more great hockey left in him...but that was where he peaked.  Same with Paul Coffey and Jari Kurri.  And Steve Yzerman and Dale Hawerchuk.

Occasionally players have their best or at least their most productive season(s) early on.  Mogilny, Selanne, Scott Gomez (first year), Joe Thorton, Stamkos, Bure and Mats Sundin, just off the top of my head.   Federov too, think he won the Hart in 94, and was second in scoring behind Gretzky's last Art Ross.   And Eric Lindros didn't take long to win his only Hart trophy either.  Oh yeah, Eric Staal did a Stamkos too.    It's not the norm, but it's not rare for sure.    Also Ovechkin "peaked" at 22.   That was his best season, when he won all the hardware.   It's very normal for the HHOF star types, to have their best seasons before they are 25 really.  Mario had his most productive seasons  at 22 and 23.   He for sure match his 23 199 point effort later though, just didn't play as many games.   92-93 was his best season.  

 

Brett Hull is also the norm.  From 25-29 only Gretzky and Mario could beat what he did.

25 80GP 72 goals   

26 78GP  86 goals  (wowza!)

27 73GP  70 goals 

28 80GP  54 goals 

29 81GP   57 goals

30 48GP   29 goals (50 goal pace)

 

386 goals in 440 games.   That's a gaudy .8363 goals per game pace lol.   Ovechkin has never done that, even taking his best six seasons.   Bossy maybe if you cherry picked them.   Only Mario and Gretzky likely did this or better (Mario for 12 seasons in a row Gretzky for ten).  

 

Case in point, 583 goals in 696 games for 9 seasons go Gretzky in EDM, averaged .837 GPG.    First LA season final 54 goal or more season.  His numbers were just gaudy. 

 

We all know Bossy reigns supreme with his decade long career at .75 GPG career, but nobody can touch these three guys.  For burning the hottest for a significant amount of time.    (Gretzky, Mario, Hull).

Edited August 9 by IBatch

[Gawdzukes]

On 8/5/2024 at 5:10 PM, bishopshodan said:

If you had to get bare knuckle punched in the face by Mike Tyson in his prime, or kicked in the belly by a Mule...

 

Which would you pick?

 

Mule ... I might live 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Occasionally players have their best or at least their most productive season(s) early on.  Mogilny, Selanne, Scott Gomez (first year), Joe Thorton, Stamkos, Bure and Mats Sundin, just off the top of my head.   Federov too, think he won the Hart in 94, and was second in scoring behind Gretzky's last Art Ross.   And Eric Lindros didn't take long to win his only Hart trophy either.  Oh yeah, Eric Staal did a Stamkos too.    It's not the norm, but it's not rare for sure.    Also Ovechkin "peaked" at 22.   That was his best season, when he won all the hardware.   It's very normal for the HHOF star types, to have their best seasons before they are 25 really.  Mario had his most productive seasons  at 22 and 23.   He for sure match his 23 199 point effort later though, just didn't play as many games.   92-93 was his best season.  

 

Brett Hull is also the norm.  From 25-29 only Gretzky and Mario could beat what he did.

25 80GP 72 goals   

26 78GP  86 goals  (wowza!)

27 73GP  70 goals 

28 80GP  54 goals 

29 81GP   57 goals

30 48GP   29 goals (50 goal pace)

 

386 goals in 440 games.   That's a gaudy .8363 goals per game pace lol.   Ovechkin has never done that, even taking his best six seasons.   Bossy maybe if you cherry picked them.   Only Mario and Gretzky likely did this or better (Mario for 12 seasons in a row Gretzky for ten).  

 

Case in point, 583 goals in 696 games for 9 seasons go Gretzky in EDM, averaged .837 GPG.    First LA season final 54 goal or more season.  His numbers were just gaudy. 

 

We all know Bossy reigns supreme with his decade long career at .75 GPG career, but nobody can touch these three guys.  For burning the hottest for a significant amount of time.    (Gretzky, Mario, Hull).

 

Phil Esposito is probably up there too, five seasons in a row with 76, 66, 55, 68 and 61 goals.

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Phil Esposito is probably up there too, five seasons in a row with 76, 66, 55, 68 and 61 goals

Gretzky's wingman Kurri?   Maybe Jagr or Dionne not sure.  Lafluer and Dionne not too shabby.  Same with Kurri, but not really at the same level.  Yzerman too. 

Edited August 9 by IBatch

[spook007]

7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Lots of players are very good for much longer...but I still don't think it's that rare to peak at or before 24 or 25.  Trevor Linden did.  (Stan Smyl, Tony Tanti and Petri Skriko for a few more major Canucks).

 

Wayne Gretzky did.  Obviously Gretzky had a lot more great hockey left in him...but that was where he peaked.  Same with Paul Coffey and Jari Kurri.  And Steve Yzerman and Dale Hawerchuk.

 

 

Fair enough and very true...

If we discuss peaking guess we can add, how much they are declining... As you say Gretzky was actually a great example... 

[Kevin Biestra]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Gretzky's wingman Kurri?   Maybe Jagr or Dionne not sure.  Lafluer and Dionne not too shabby.  Same with Kurri, but not really at the same level.  Yzerman too. 

 

Kurri had two big years back to back but other than that was a 40 to low 50s goal scorer for some more years.  Had seven 40+ goal years in a row but other than those two seasons wasn't otherworldly.  Dionne scored 50 goals like clockwork for a while but never more than 59.  Lafleur's best six years were probably comparable.

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, spook007 said:

Fair enough and very true...

If we discuss peaking guess we can add, how much they are declining... As you say Gretzky was actually a great example... 

 

Yeah I mean Gretzky and Coffey still had all time great seasons well after 24...just never got those heights (215 and 138 points) again.  Gretzky was still the 2nd best center in the league in his 2nd last season at age 37.  Coffey won the Norris and was 4th for the Hart Trophy at 33.

 

And of course as you say many players peak at 27 or later.  Phil Esposito, the Sedins, Markus Naslund, Todd Bertuzzi, Phil Housley, Lanny McDonald, Pat Lafontaine, Adam Oates...

 

Edited August 9 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah I mean Gretzky and Coffey still had all time great seasons well after 24...just never got those heights (215 and 138 points) again.  Gretzky was still the 2nd best center in the league in his 2nd last season at age 37.  Coffey won the Norris and was 4th for the Hart Trophy at 33.

 

And of course as you say many players peak at 27 or later.  Phil Esposito, the Sedins, Markus Naslund, Todd Bertuzzi, Phil Housley, Lanny McDonald, Pat Lafontaine, Adam Oates...

 

Pretty sure that the players at the HHOF level that peaked at 25 or younger or had their most productive season(s) already, were superstars for the most part.   It isn't the norm really for regular star types like Hyman, Jt Miller, Zinbanejad etc, 

[Kevin Biestra]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Pretty sure that the players at the HHOF level that peaked at 25 or younger or had their most productive season(s) already, were superstars for the most part.   It isn't the norm really for regular star types like Hyman, Jt Miller, Zinbanejad etc, 

 

Yeah Phil Esposito is the late bloomer that stands out to me for superstars.  Guys like Gordie Howe, Ray Bourque, Bobby Hull and Rocket Richard were just super consistent basically at about the same peak from very early 20s for at least a decade.

 

Orr was a monster continuously from 21 to 26 and then his career basically ended at 26.

 

 

Edited August 9 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

On 8/9/2024 at 7:58 AM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Phil Esposito is the late bloomer that stands out to me for superstars.  Guys like Gordie Howe, Ray Bourque, Bobby Hull and Rocket Richard were just super consistent basically at about the same peak from very early 20s for at least a decade.

 

Orr was a monster continuously from 21 to 26 and then his career basically ended at 26.

 

 

Borque and Howe were animals.  Basically at or near the top in their position at an early age, and did it for a couple decades.   Pretty sure Borque was a first string all-star his first season, and his final season.   22 years of domination.   There were some years in the late 90's on not so good  Bruins teams (they broke it all up accept him)  that he just carried all their mail.   Believe he scored his long bomb Borque goal, just infront inside his own blue line (enough to make Lidstrom blush), when his teams weren't so hot.   For the majority of his time with the Bruins, he was something else.  Only Gretzky can match his resume.   Probably the best all-around defenseman after Orr.  22 years, almost all of them, at or near the top of his craft.  An argument could be made to include Bourqe in the same tier as Howe.   Not many players are that good, for that long.    Goes to show the quality of competition he had.   Lidstrom on the other hand, most definitely was not at the same level.  Couldn't win until Blake, Pronger, Al Mac, Chelios best years, Borque and early on even Coffey had retired or well into their decline.    Borque was awesome from the start, until the end, and didn't shy away from the hitting physical part.  His hits hurt.  And did it all playing within the rules.    Wonder how many minutes he played overall.   If he's playing 26.5 -27.5 his past half dozen years in his later 30's and 40'a, how much was he playing in the late 80's and early 90's on his contending teams?   Yowzers.

 

Read an article he deserves to be there with Howe, Orr, Mario and Gretzky.    Maybe the fact Coffey was considered the guy for half his career?  Or maybe Coffey should really be with those guys too.  

 

If I started a blue line, Borque, Potvin (best player on those loaded NYI teams), Orr, Coffey and  Robinson would be the first four guys off the  board.   The sixth guy would be hard to choose from.   AL Mac shone brighter then Lidstrom at times too.  

Edited August 11 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Borque and Howe were animals.  Basically at or near the top in their position at an early age, and did it for a couple decades.   Pretty sure Borque was a first string all-star his first season, and his final season.   22 years of domination.   There were some years in the late 90's on not so good  Bruins teams (they broke it all up accept him)  that he just carried all their mail.   Believe he scored his long bomb Borque goal, just infront inside his own blue line (enough to make Lidstrom blush), when his teams weren't so hot.   For the majority of his time with the Bruins, he was something else.  Only Gretzky can match his resume.   Probably the best all-around defenseman after Orr.  22 years, almost all of them, at or near the top of his craft.  An argument could be made to include Bourqe in the same tier as Howe.   Not many players are that good, for that long.    Goes to show the quality of competition he had.   Lidstrom on the other hand, most definitely was not at the same level.  Couldn't win until Blake, Pronger, Al Mac, Chelios best years, Borque and early on even Coffey had retired or well into their decline.    Borque was awesome from the start, until the end, and didn't shy away from the hitting physical part.  His hits hurt.  And did it all playing within the rules. 

 

Yeah Bourque was the Gordie Howe of defensemen.  22 seasons, 19 of them a 1st or 2nd team All Star.  Worst he ever was voted by the experts at any point was 7th best defenseman in the league...around where Hall of Famer Kevin Lowe peaked in his best season.  All of the other 19 top four, and not many at 4th.

 

Coffey was the hare in the all time defenseman scoring race, Bourque was the tortoise...but with four 90+ point seasons I think not exactly a slow moving one.

 

 

Edited August 11 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Bourque was the Gordie Howe of defensemen.  22 seasons, 19 of them a 1st or 2nd team All Star.  Worst he ever was voted by the experts at any point was 7th best defenseman in the league...around where Hall of Famer Kevin Lowe peaked in his best season.  Coffey was the hare in the all time defenseman scoring race, Bourque was the tortoise...but with four 90+ point seasons I think not exactly a slow moving one.

If Potvin didn't play all those playoff games, and played four more years without the body issues, have to think he'd be right there too.  And it wasn't until the 90's, that I begrudgingly decided Borque was on the same plane as Coffey was.   That guy fought, was mean, and a lot of his cheating exaggerated and was counterintuitive with  defensive stuff, he was better in his own zone then he got credit for, and well like QHs, and other guys, the idea was to not have to even play defense, keep the puck out of the zone or get it out quick and onto the attack.    

Edited August 11 by IBatch