Pavel Bure or Quinn Hughes

[Alflives]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

Bure was a phenom too.  More so than QH's. 

Bure was the Russian Rocket. Hughes is a better player though. 

[Pure961089]

9 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol best all around defenceman is a reach.. how can you be the best all around defenceman when you don’t even play pk or on the ice last min in a defensive zone draw up 1 or tied game? Best all around means offence and defence.. 

 

bure can score 5v5 power play and short handed.. his 24sh goals in 400ish games? That’s one Canucks record no one will ever come close to touching. 

172 1st place votes wasn't an accident,  he controls games.  The only one that comes close is Makar who is a year older.  Last year defensively he just couldn't hang with Hughes.  Makar depends on McKinnon and the powerplay to get points, but when you look past the eye candy goals and look under the hood of both, the underlying numbers show it wasn't close.  Hughes raised the bar last year.  It will be fun to watch their careers

Edited September 4 by Pure961089

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

172 1st place votes wasn't an accident,  he controls games.  The only one that comes close is Makar who is a year older.  Last year defensively he just couldn't hang with Hughes.  Makar depends on McKinnon and the powerplay to get points, but when you look past the eye candy goals and look under the hood of both, the underlying numbers show it wasn't close.  Hughes raised the bar last year.  It will be fun to watch their careers

Exactly! Makar is a guy who moves the puck by carrying it; that’s his first thought. Hughes first thought is to move the puck by passing it. Yes, he’s equally brilliant at carrying the puck, but his first thought is to pass. Add in Hughes’ far superior defensive play and it’s not really that close between him and the next best D man. And the votes for the Norris showed that. Hughes is the best player we’ve ever had. 

[wai_lai416]

19 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

172 1st place votes wasn't an accident,  he controls games.  The only one that comes close is Makar who is a year older.  Last year defensively he just couldn't hang with Hughes.  Makar depends on McKinnon and the powerplay to get points, but when you look past the eye candy goals and look under the hood of both, the underlying numbers show it wasn't close.  Hughes raised the bar last year.  It will be fun to watch their careers

Makar depends on mackinnon to get points? What are you on.. have you not seen all his highlight reel goals where he just dance and skate thru the entire team.. Hughes was better no doubt last season.. but again Norris is now a best offensive defenceman award.. the best defensive defenceman with avg offense will not even get a single vote. Hughes doesn’t play pk 1 pk 2 he’s not on the ice for a defensive zone draw last min of the game in a tie or up 1 situation pretty much sums up everything about his defence.. if makar plays in a tocchet defensive structure system instead of the one they use in Colorado.. one can argue he’ll have as good if not better defensive numbers.. if Hughes and makar was available in a redraft.. I’m pretty sure outside of Vancouver everyone will take makar without thinking twice.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

Makar depends on mackinnon to get points? What are you on.. have you not seen all his highlight reel goals where he just dance and skate thru the entire team.. Hughes was better no doubt last season.. but again Norris is now a best offensive defenceman award.. the best defensive defenceman with avg offense will not even get a single vote. Hughes doesn’t play pk 1 pk 2 he’s not on the ice for a defensive zone draw last min of the game in a tie or up 1 situation pretty much sums up everything about his defence.. if makar plays in a tocchet defensive structure system instead of the one they use in Colorado.. one can argue he’ll have as good if not better defensive numbers.. if Hughes and makar was available in a redraft.. I’m pretty sure outside of Vancouver everyone will take makar without thinking twice.

Makar is fun to watch because he’s a puck carrier. There are lots of highlights for him. But he’s not close to Hughes as an all around D man. Hughes is like Orr. He’s the best offensive and defensive D man. We are so lucky Dim Jim got a pick right. 

[Nucker67]

Just my opinion:

 

Skating - Hughes

Shot - Makar

Puck handling - Hughes

Hockey IQ - Hughes

Leadership - Hughes

 

In summary, I believe Hughes is the best Dman in the league and just needs to work on his shot a bit to be the clear #1.

[wai_lai416]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Makar is fun to watch because he’s a puck carrier. There are lots of highlights for him. But he’s not close to Hughes as an all around D man. Hughes is like Orr. He’s the best offensive and defensive D man. We are so lucky Dim Jim got a pick right. 

Again how can the best defensive defenseman you claim ain’t used in defensive situation?

 

hughes is a better playmaker than makar no doubt but to say he’s better than makar defensively is a homer take

Edited September 4 by wai_lai416

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Again how can the best defensive defenseman you claim ain’t used in defensive situation?

 

hughes is a better playmaker than makar no doubt but to say he’s better than makar defensively is a homer take

Facts are facts. Hughes is better than Makar in all aspects of the game. Makar has rosery cheeks, but that’s his only advantage. 

[Pure961089]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

Makar depends on mackinnon to get points? What are you on.. have you not seen all his highlight reel goals where he just dance and skate thru the entire team.. Hughes was better no doubt last season.. but again Norris is now a best offensive defenceman award.. the best defensive defenceman with avg offense will not even get a single vote. Hughes doesn’t play pk 1 pk 2 he’s not on the ice for a defensive zone draw last min of the game in a tie or up 1 situation pretty much sums up everything about his defence.. if makar plays in a tocchet defensive structure system instead of the one they use in Colorado.. one can argue he’ll have as good if not better defensive numbers.. if Hughes and makar was available in a redraft.. I’m pretty sure outside of Vancouver everyone will take makar without thinking twice.

There it is, the technicolour, fluorescent icing on an otherwise flat cake. Looking under the hood of both players Hughes was a far better all-round defenseman than Makar, wasn't close.  

[R3aL]

14 hours ago, IBatch said:

Hughes isn't a minute muncher like Borque, Lidstrom, Pronger or even EK was at the same age (about the same now for that matter).   Plus a lot of others I won't bother mentioning.    He's unique like Bure was, that's the similarity.   

Hughes is our TOI leader and we are an insanely better team statistically than when he’s on the ice vs when he’s not before and during tocchet defensive system days

 

I dont think I said  he plays more minutes than the biggest minute muncher dmen in nhl history 

 

but ya both special / unique players. 

[wai_lai416]

7 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

There it is, the technicolour, fluorescent icing on an otherwise flat cake. Looking under the hood of both players Hughes was a far better all-round defenseman than Makar, wasn't close.  

again how are you an all around defenceman when all around means offence and defence? he doesn't play in defensive situation or penalty kill??? that's like saying Mcdavid is the best defensive forward in the league because he doesn't play in the defensive zone with his offense prowess.. Hughes is fine defensively when he is forced into the situation from the flow of play.. but he's never out there for a defensive draw unless it's an icing or out on the ice with the game on the line up 1 in the last min.. but somehow he's the best all around defenceman in the league lol.. even heiskanen is a better "all around" defenceman than hughes except hughes is far superior offensively which is what the norris is based on nowadays.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

again how are you an all around defenceman when all around means offence and defence? he doesn't play in defensive situation or penalty kill??? that's like saying Mcdavid is the best defensive forward in the league because he doesn't play in the defensive zone with his offense prowess.. Hughes is fine defensively when he is forced into the situation from the flow of play.. but he's never out there for a defensive draw unless it's an icing or out on the ice with the game on the line up 1 in the last min.. but somehow he's the best all around defenceman in the league lol.. even heiskanen is a better "all around" defenceman than hughes except hughes is far superior offensively which is what the norris is based on nowadays.

Heiskenan just happens to be the real next Lidstrom.   He's also pretty darn good offensively, already in the record books for the 6th most points in a single post season, something Lidstrom never accomplished, 45th was the best he could do.   Yes he's pretty darn good, after the rule's changed in 06-07, like Lidstrom does everything very good...As far as QHs versus Makar,  QHs was for sure the better player this year, and it was a landslide vote wise.    He's very good defensively, at least he was this season.   And Tocchet decided to limit his minutes, that came from his PK time, the previous couple seasons's  started playing 2nd unit.   Hedman and Josi are probably the best all-around D's, both long in the tooth but still doing it.  

 

 Crosby also doesn't PK anymore, of course he can though, it's just smarter to limit his minutes.    The guy who does it all, and plays a ridiculous amount of time as far as superstars go, is Nathan Mckinnon.    Bouchard didn't PK either and rightly so (better options).   

 

Edit:  As for Makar, to me he's not that unlike EK was at the same stage...except  EK was playing close to 30 minutes or over many nights - he PKed  and was a threat like Bure, while doing it.   Some of these guys will do it for part of their careers only.     As for the Norris being based on points, that's a bit of a stretch, but for sure it matters.   We haven't seen a defensive defenseman good enough to win it since Rod Langway.   In the past Housley tore up the scoring sheets, closest he came was 3rd, wasn't exactly known for his d-game.    

 

Weber was probably best all-around defenseman of his era, but never won (regular finalist though).    EK was robbed of one Norris early due to Cooke's foot stomp.   And almost certainly would have won one other (Doughty by a slim margin).   Do think this is the best era for smaller PMD's (Makar and QHs) to truly shine.   They don't have to put the work in Chris Chelios did, or play like he did either (dropping the gloves regularly to create a rep and give himself space).   Makar has already suffered injuries anyways.    To me that's the only slight on QHs, will his body endure a 110ish games it takes to win a cup.    Makar won but it came at a cost. 

 

League got it right with Hedman.. Six years in a row as a finalist, one Norris.   Feel that Weber is the last guy to have a run of 7 seasons like that.   Doughty was too all over the place.   EK could have had one like that as well, injuries piled up. 

Edited September 4 by IBatch

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, R3aL said:

Hughes is our TOI leader and we are an insanely better team statistically than when he’s on the ice vs when he’s not before and during tocchet defensive system days

 

I dont think I said  he plays more minutes than the biggest minute muncher dmen in nhl history 

 

but ya both special / unique players. 

He's playing top pairing minutes, and love that Tocchet manages his minutes.   We don't need to ride him more than we do. 

[Thrago]

It's not even close Bure by a country mile. Hughes is amazing Bure was a Phenom.  

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Thrago said:

It's not even close Bure by a country mile. Hughes is amazing Bure was a Phenom.  

Backwards. Bure was amazing and Hughes is a phenom. Hughes is our best player ever. 

[Thrago]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Backwards. Bure was amazing and Hughes is a phenom. Hughes is our best player ever. 

I wish that was true Alf.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Thrago said:

I wish that was true Alf.

All three Hughes brothers will play here together, and soon. Jack and Luke are going to get tired of the losing and having no fan interest in Jersey. They will demand to come here. 
The Empties have spoken. All bow  

[Thrago]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

All three Hughes brothers will play here together, and soon. Jack and Luke are going to get tired of the losing and having no fan interest in Jersey. They will demand to come here. 
The Empties have spoken. All bow  

Oh damn, that would be amazing.

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

He's playing top pairing minutes, and love that Tocchet manages his minutes.   We don't need to ride him more than we do. 

i mean makar plays 5 sec more than hughes for toi avg.. that's with 2min+ of penalty killing every game.. you dont think colorado would much rather have makar out 5v5 or powerplay instead of playing the 2+mins of PK? but fact is he's one of the top defensive defenceman on the team hence he needs to play those pk mins.. if QH is one of the best defensive defenceman on this team.. he'd be playing those PK minutes.. QH is fine when defending against the rush with his skating.. but i find he's not effective when they are hemmed in the zone are when playing the pk where they are more positional and less reliant on skating.. he can't clear bodies he can't pin ppl along the board and he doesn't block any shots. a defenceman that doesn't block shots are rare.. him and his brother luke have the fewest block shot of the top 100 defenceman toi by a fair margin.. even more rare for forwards to have more block shots than the defenceman with the most ice time on the team.. i like hughes i'm happy with his game defensively but he's an average defensive defenceman.. and he's not used as much in tocchet defensive structure coz he doesn't block shots.. something tocchet likes to do... let the other team pressure and they keep it to the outside and try to block everything.. nothing really to do with trying to limit his minutes by not playing him on the pk.. blocking shots is a big part of pks if he doesn't block shots.. then he's useless on the pk.. even when he played on the PK under bruce.. he doesn't block shots.. he has like 4 blocks in 100mins worth of pk.. and our pk during that time was being lit up like a xmas tree

[GrammaInTheTub]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

All three Hughes brothers will play here together, and soon. Jack and Luke are going to get tired of the losing and having no fan interest in Jersey. They will demand to come here. 
The Empties have spoken. All bow  

Pettersson, Hoglander, and Willander + a pick

 

for

 

Jack and Luke

 

Would you do that Alf? I love Petey, but I do that trade all day long. It would probably take a bit more coming from us honestly 

[R3aL]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

He's playing top pairing minutes, and love that Tocchet manages his minutes.   We don't need to ride him more than we do. 

I’m very confused I didn’t say we do need to play him more minutes

 

anyways love both players 

 

My choice to take Hughes over Bure forced to choose is mostly because of the position he plays and the longevity of his projected career as a Canuck over what was Bures.  

 

We have the rest of Hughes career to look forward to and he’s just hitting his prime rn.

Edited September 4 by R3aL

[IBatch]

8 minutes ago, R3aL said:

I’m very confused I didn’t say we do need to play him more minutes

 

anyways love both players 

 

My choice to take Hughes over Bure forced to choose is mostly because of the position he plays and the longevity of his projected career as a Canuck over what was Bures.  

 

We have the rest of Hughes career to look forward to and he’s just hitting his prime rn.

It's all good my friend.   You seriously can't go wrong with either player. 

[Pure961089]

13 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

again how are you an all around defenceman when all around means offence and defence? he doesn't play in defensive situation or penalty kill??? that's like saying Mcdavid is the best defensive forward in the league because he doesn't play in the defensive zone with his offense prowess.. Hughes is fine defensively when he is forced into the situation from the flow of play.. but he's never out there for a defensive draw unless it's an icing or out on the ice with the game on the line up 1 in the last min.. but somehow he's the best all around defenceman in the league lol.. even heiskanen is a better "all around" defenceman than hughes except hughes is far superior offensively which is what the norris is based on nowadays.

Puck possession is Quinn's defence.  And he didn't win because of his 92 points, the tie breaker was Quinn's undeniable, underlying defensive numbers.  You have to see beyond what's on the surface.  

 

 

[Pure961089]

23 hours ago, Alflives said:

Facts are facts. Hughes is better than Makar in all aspects of the game. Makar has rosery cheeks, but that’s his only advantage. 

And is clearly more faster than Makar as shown in the All-star skills competition 

 

 

[Sophomore Jinx]

1 hour ago, Pure961089 said:

And is clearly more faster than Makar as shown in the All-star skills competition 

 

 

1/1000 of a second. Clearly