Pavel Bure or Quinn Hughes

[wai_lai416]

7 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

Puck possession is Quinn's defence.  And he didn't win because of his 92 points, the tie breaker was Quinn's undeniable, underlying defensive numbers.  You have to see beyond what's on the surface.  

 

 

So mcdavid should win the selke because his puck possession is prolly #1 in the league? Hughes is good when defending against the rush by forcing players to the outside with his skating. He’s not that good when the other team establish possession in the offensive zone. He can’t knock a guy off the puck.. he can’t pin a guy against the board.. he is not willing to block a shot.. the Hughes brother lead the league in fewest shots per min by country miles of any defenceman with reasonable time on ice. That’s the main reason tocchet doesn’t use him in pk and last min of the games defending.. when was the last time u seen him gone down to block a shot? Size is not excuses when others like fox have 2.5x his block shots.. and yes he won mostly because of his offense and being good enough on defence.. he didn’t win because his defence was better than josi lol. You guys need to stop telling yourself a guy that is not used on the team for any defensive situations if they can help it is one of the best defender in the league.. when the other options on the team are Myers etc.. I like Hughes and I think he’s a great defenseman and well deserved of the Norris but gimme a break.. it’s almost like saying Bouchard should have been a finalist for the Norris because he was amazing offensively and his advance stats shows he’s amazing defensively.. when reality is they rarely have to play defence thx to mcdavid

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

And is clearly more faster than Makar as shown in the All-star skills competition 

 

 

You know what dumb about this?  A 17 year vet Gartner's time still hasn't been beat.   The reason for this, is they get to start before the line, one stride ... and what's also silly is without this advantage, 12 players recorded a time of 13.5 during the qualifiers (they made them qualify then) or during the actual race..:including Bret Hedican.   Yet the league is "so much faster".    For anyone interested, google it and find the video and post it. 

Edited September 5 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 9/4/2024 at 11:54 AM, wai_lai416 said:

i mean makar plays 5 sec more than hughes for toi avg.. that's with 2min+ of penalty killing every game.. you dont think colorado would much rather have makar out 5v5 or powerplay instead of playing the 2+mins of PK? but fact is he's one of the top defensive defenceman on the team hence he needs to play those pk mins.. if QH is one of the best defensive defenceman on this team.. he'd be playing those PK minutes.. QH is fine when defending against the rush with his skating.. but i find he's not effective when they are hemmed in the zone are when playing the pk where they are more positional and less reliant on skating.. he can't clear bodies he can't pin ppl along the board and he doesn't block any shots. a defenceman that doesn't block shots are rare.. him and his brother luke have the fewest block shot of the top 100 defenceman toi by a fair margin.. even more rare for forwards to have more block shots than the defenceman with the most ice time on the team.. i like hughes i'm happy with his game defensively but he's an average defensive defenceman.. and he's not used as much in tocchet defensive structure coz he doesn't block shots.. something tocchet likes to do... let the other team pressure and they keep it to the outside and try to block everything.. nothing really to do with trying to limit his minutes by not playing him on the pk.. blocking shots is a big part of pks if he doesn't block shots.. then he's useless on the pk.. even when he played on the PK under bruce.. he doesn't block shots.. he has like 4 blocks in 100mins worth of pk.. and our pk during that time was being lit up like a xmas tree

QHs and the team shouldn't be blamed for that bad PK.   

 

On a different note, QHs has been 99-100% tile in zone exits since his rookie season.   98-100% on entries .. so what does that say?    He's great at getting the puck out of our zone which of course he is.   Lidstrom wasn't a physical specimen either,  i'd put him below both Al Mac Brian Leetch in that regard, and way below Pronger, Blake, Chelios and Borque, plus a pile of top four D's from both the 90's and the 2000's.    Housley is probably QHs best comp all-time, and he's already shown a better defensive game than Housley had.   Like Housley, he's yet to prove he can match his regular season prowess in the post season.     Makar has done that.   Also he's not playing with McKinnon or Rantanen so there is that to consider as well.   

 

As far as blocks go, Lidstrom was average at that too.   And not exactly a big deal infront of the net and definitely not a hitting beast either.   Yet anyone who got to saw him (in the 2000's only) often thinks he's the greatest there ever was which is a pile of baloney.    Rafalski was next up as far as D scoring in the 2000's, not exactly much competition once the old guard retired.   Just oft injured Pronger and Niedermayer who was also never near the top as far as rovers go. 

 

For me at least, he's miles ahead of a lot of guys were, including Lidstrom, at the same age.   The only question mark is can he do what he's done in the regular season, in the playoffs.    That's about it. 

 

As for Makar, he's great too.   

Edited September 6 by IBatch

[EastCoastExpress]

23 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i mean makar plays 5 sec more than hughes for toi avg.. that's with 2min+ of penalty killing every game.. you dont think colorado would much rather have makar out 5v5 or powerplay instead of playing the 2+mins of PK? but fact is he's one of the top defensive defenceman on the team hence he needs to play those pk mins.. if QH is one of the best defensive defenceman on this team.. he'd be playing those PK minutes.. QH is fine when defending against the rush with his skating.. but i find he's not effective when they are hemmed in the zone are when playing the pk where they are more positional and less reliant on skating.. he can't clear bodies he can't pin ppl along the board and he doesn't block any shots. a defenceman that doesn't block shots are rare.. him and his brother luke have the fewest block shot of the top 100 defenceman toi by a fair margin.. even more rare for forwards to have more block shots than the defenceman with the most ice time on the team.. i like hughes i'm happy with his game defensively but he's an average defensive defenceman.. and he's not used as much in tocchet defensive structure coz he doesn't block shots.. something tocchet likes to do... let the other team pressure and they keep it to the outside and try to block everything.. nothing really to do with trying to limit his minutes by not playing him on the pk.. blocking shots is a big part of pks if he doesn't block shots.. then he's useless on the pk.. even when he played on the PK under bruce.. he doesn't block shots.. he has like 4 blocks in 100mins worth of pk.. and our pk during that time was being lit up like a xmas tree

I agree that Hughes is an Offensive Dman, and should be paired with a stay-at-home Dman who can cover.

Hughes is not the correct choice for a defensive zone position or PK because we have GIANT Dmen to cover those roles, who can take the big hits and give them, eat pucks all day. Hughes is a great precision tool but we got plenty of blunt objects too.

[higgyfan]

 Bure was not only an extremely fast skater with ultra scoring skills, he was also played

a tough game and was very hard to knock off the puck.  He was one of the best players

of the 1990's.  A definite game breaker.

 

Quinn is showing his worthiness as an incredible mobile dman with fantastic edges and is the

driver of the Canucks game.  He is still not in his prime, so he is still improving his game.  Already

a Norris winner; he will be one of the best dmen of the 2020's.  He is also a game changer.

 

Bure played in an era that was very physical, which took a toll on his body with various injuries.

I suspect that, if he played in todays' NHL, his speed and skill would dominate the game and he

would have a much longer career.  I'd venture to say that Pavel would be top 3 in scoring.

 

 

 

 

[Pure961089]

9 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

So mcdavid should win the selke because his puck possession is prolly #1 in the league? Hughes is good when defending against the rush by forcing players to the outside with his skating. He’s not that good when the other team establish possession in the offensive zone. He can’t knock a guy off the puck.. he can’t pin a guy against the board.. he is not willing to block a shot.. the Hughes brother lead the league in fewest shots per min by country miles of any defenceman with reasonable time on ice. That’s the main reason tocchet doesn’t use him in pk and last min of the games defending.. when was the last time u seen him gone down to block a shot? Size is not excuses when others like fox have 2.5x his block shots.. and yes he won mostly because of his offense and being good enough on defence.. he didn’t win because his defence was better than josi lol. You guys need to stop telling yourself a guy that is not used on the team for any defensive situations if they can help it is one of the best defender in the league.. when the other options on the team are Myers etc.. I like Hughes and I think he’s a great defenseman and well deserved of the Norris but gimme a break.. it’s almost like saying Bouchard should have been a finalist for the Norris because he was amazing offensively and his advance stats shows he’s amazing defensively.. when reality is they rarely have to play defence thx to mcdavid

When Quinn is on the ice he's not doing a lot of shot blocking because he usually has the puck.  Quinn Hughes transcends the role of traditional defencemen because he's a special case.  You can't put Hughes in a box of what defenceman should be because in every aspect he operates outside the parameters of your box.  

[wai_lai416]

5 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

When Quinn is on the ice he's not doing a lot of shot blocking because he usually has the puck.  Quinn Hughes transcends the role of traditional defencemen because he's a special case.  You can't put Hughes in a box of what defenceman should be because in every aspect he operates outside the parameters of your box.  

again if u watch when we get pinned in our zone.. hughes makes 0 attempts to block shot.. when was the last time u seen him in a blocking position like a EP? Miller plays exclusively with hughes 5v5 and he has more block shots than hughes 5v5 he shoudl have less if hughes usually have the puck like u claim? he's great at puck retrieval when other team dumps it in and get at getting it out.. he's not so great when the other team carries the puck in and establish zone possession as seen in the playoff. stop pretending hughes is a transcendant talent that's changing how the position is played.. he's an amazing offensive defenceman that is decent in the right defensive situation.. and was kinda exposed in the playoff when nashville and edmonton just target and pound him all game. he was avg more block shot in the playoff than he was in the regular season coz we were stuck defending almost every game when the other teams is firing 70-80 shots attempt per game

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

again if u watch when we get pinned in our zone.. hughes makes 0 attempts to block shot.. when was the last time u seen him in a blocking position like a EP? Miller plays exclusively with hughes 5v5 and he has more block shots than hughes 5v5 he shoudl have less if hughes usually have the puck like u claim? he's great at puck retrieval when other team dumps it in and get at getting it out.. he's not so great when the other team carries the puck in and establish zone possession as seen in the playoff. stop pretending hughes is a transcendant talent that's changing how the position is played.. he's an amazing offensive defenceman that is decent in the right defensive situation.. and was kinda exposed in the playoff when nashville and edmonton just target and pound him all game. he was avg more block shot in the playoff than he was in the regular season coz we were stuck defending almost every game when the other teams is firing 70-80 shots attempt per game

QHs gets the puck and makes a pass, and does just fine along the boards to get the puck during the forecheck  .. the playoffs he kept getting pounded, so he stopped skating with the puck to dodge the hits - make the play then get hit (once double timed and that one hurt), even if he had zero time he got the puck to someone else.    He does pin guys momentarily or tries too, to help his partners get the puck or digging it out himself.  

 

We didn't  find QHs line pinned down as much as the other pairings 5 x 5. last seasons.   It's 9/10 on QHs stick and either moved himself or a quick smart pass back and forth so he can skate it out, or a tick tack toe and someone else is skating it out, usually Miller, Brock or EP.    If the goal is to keep the puck out of your zone,   Fox, Josi, Hedman and Makar were all behind QHs in that regard last year, which is a pretty darn good way to reduce shot attempts.   All the advanced stats love QHs, because the ice tilts the other way significantly when he's on the ice.    The same things happened when EK was in OTT (Makar reminds a lot of a young EK, QHs is a much different, unique defenseman)....so maybe things will change later on, who knows, at least EK got a partner who stuck around and allowed him roam.  

 

No he's not Chara or Weber or Hedman.   Not impressive physically.   Brian Campbell used to do what QHs does to other teams, and  all the time to us, was better then Keith their first cup, great in all 3 zones and super annoying to watch our guys miss their checks, get their pockets picked, miss the body entirely and be left out of position with the puck going back the other way.    Made it awfully difficult to play against a guy who often had us running around with our heads cut off in all 3 zones, with these little dekes that made it look like he's playing against junior B, then the pass to open up the ice to one of their guys ways with a big head of speed on, or he'd just skate it down into the other zone by himself.   And then on the PP or even 5 x 5 keeping us hemmed in from the point .. not fun.  

 

Campbell frustrated me as a fan.   Not with bone crunching hits or even scoring a goal (those did too), just controlled the game better than anyone else on either team from the back end in those series.  

 Before that Chris Chelios did it to our Linden team in what was supposed to be our follow up to 94.    All games (four of them), felt like we were in it, but Chelios was too hard to handle, hard to bump off the puck, and just set up the play or scored the goal himself when it was always tied or so it seemed.   

 

I imagine fans of other teams, see QHs in the same way I saw Brian Campbell (in general, not taking post season here) but not Chelios, these little guys who scared the crap out of me when we played each other a few years anyways.  Chelios more so than Brian Leetch did.   We handled everyone on that team, but Chelios.   Leetch was a great skater and passer, but aside from Game 1, didn't feel like he was dictating the pace of the games, got his points without being overly noticeable really after game one.   You knew when Chelios was on the ice and it created anxiety, didn't know if he'd butt end someone, jump him and wail away, or hit Linden and skate the puck through the team and score a goal.  The best little D of all time.   Aptly named the "Junkyard Dog" we don't have anyone who played that fiercely.  

 

With Campbell it was more admiration, and kind of well oh fuck here we go.   And could appreciate how he controlled the pace of the game in all 3 zones.    QHs last year, well for a long time  was on pace for over 100 points, and QHs Hronek's names started coming up with other all-time great pairings Al Mac Pronger,  Neidermayer Steven's.   Too early for sure, and said as much then.   But they were absolutely crushing it.    It's truly too bad the entire team changed after the all-star break.   That flat momentum also came from EP's demise down the stretch; Demko,  QHs became more of a mortal as well, the Orr comparisons thankfully stopped (good grief everything thing is a record now the way media presents the information...McDavid did break Gretzky's assist record, but nobody had the balls to say in 7ish less games, but at least it was a record .. he's lost 5 and gained one since retirement, down to 58 or so)..  

 

For sure it's not a foregone conclusion he won't become even more well rounded with time, it also wouldn't shock me if we just had a career season for points.    Because Tocchet might need to split those two up for the post season, and start in the regular season at some point.    Not a lot of options, Myers hasn't worked (although it also hasn't been tried under Tochert and Foote either).   If we go back to a Schenn like situation (Desharnais),  QHs will be hard pressed to keep it at a PPG pace, and if he's still a plus monster he's like Bure, Mario and Crosby, just add ______ blank name and do your thing .    Personally think they are either going to need them to play half the game most nights, or split them up with the current d corp if we want to win enough games to make the post season.    And not sure id even try going in with Hronek as a partner (unless we are playing a cute team without got forecheckers,  NSH was one of the best at this all year, EDM wasn't as bad).    QHs needs a big mean long defensive defenseman ideally, i'd settle for even an Aucion type, not a sub six defender with offensive attributes that were under utilized. 

Edited September 6 by IBatch

[Smashian Kassian]

I may be biased as Quinn is my favourite player ever & I didn't see Bure in a Canucks jersey...

 

I think its still Bure but I'm tempted to go Quinn, I've never seen a player like this in our jersey before, and very few like this in the league. I think he's still going to get better too.

 

Could see Quinn right up there with the Twins & Bure if he re-signs plays his whole prime in Vancouver. 

[Pure961089]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

QHs gets the puck and makes a pass, and does just fine along the boards to get the puck during the forecheck  .. the playoffs he kept getting pounded, so he stopped skating with the puck to dodge the hits - make the play then get hit (once double timed and that one hurt), even if he had zero time he got the puck to someone else.    He does pin guys momentarily or tries too, to help his partners get the puck or digging it out himself.  

 

We didn't  find QHs line pinned down as much as the other pairings 5 x 5. last seasons.   It's 9/10 on QHs stick and either moved himself or a quick smart pass back and forth so he can skate it out, or a tick tack toe and someone else is skating it out, usually Miller, Brock or EP.    If the goal is to keep the puck out of your zone,   Fox, Josi, Hedman and Makar were all behind QHs in that regard last year, which is a pretty darn good way to reduce shot attempts.   All the advanced stats love QHs, because the ice tilts the other way significantly when he's on the ice.    The same things happened when EK was in OTT....so maybe things will change later on, who knows, at least EK got a partner who stuck around and let him roam.  

 

No he's not Chara or Weber or Hedman.   Not impressive physically.   Brian Campbell used to do what QHs does to other teams, and  all the time to us, was better then Keith their first cup, great in all 3 zones and super annoying to watch our guys miss their checks, get their pockets picked, miss the body entirely and be left out of position with the puck going back the other way.    Made it awfully difficult to play against a guy who often had us running around with our heads cut off in all 3 zones, with these little dekes that made it look like he's playing against junior B, then the pass to open up the ice to one of their guys ways with a big head of speed on, or he'd just skate it down into the other zone by himself.   And then on the PP or even 5 x 5 keeping us hemmed in from the point .. not fun.   Campbell frustrated me as a fan.   Not with bone crunching hits or even scoring a goal (those did too), just controlled the game better than anyone else on either team from the back end.    Before that Chris Chelios did it to our Linden team in what was supposed to be our follow up to 94.    All games (four of them), felt like we were in it, but Chelios was too hard to handle, hard to bump off the puck, and just set up the play or scored the goal himself when it was always tied or so it seemed.   

 

I imagine fans of other teams, see QHs in the same way I saw Brian Campbell, but not Chelios, these little guys who scared the crap out of me when we played each other for a few years anyways.  Chelios more so than Brian Leetch did.   We handled everyone on that team, but Chelios.   Leetch was a great skater and passer, but aside from Game 1, didn't feel like he was dictating the pace of the games, just like EP, got his points without being super noticeable really.   You knew when Chelios was on the ice and it created anxiety, didn't know if he'd butt end someone, jump him and wail away, or hit Linden and skate the puck through the team and score a goal.  

 

With Campbell it was more admiration, and kind of well oh fuck here we go.   And could appreciate how he controlled the pace of the game in all 3 zones.    QHs last year, well for a long time  was on pace for over 100 points, and QHs Hronek's names started coming up with other all-time great pairings Al Mac Pronger,  Neidermayer Steven's.   Too early for sure.   But they were absolutely crushing it.    It's truly too bad the entire team changed after the all-star break.   That momentum also came from EP's demise down the stretch; but QHs became more of a mortal as well.   For sure it's not a foregone conclusion he won't become even more well rounded with time, it also wouldn't shock me if we just had a career season for points.    Because Tocchet might need to split those two up for the post season.   Not a lot of options, Myers hasn't worked (although it also hasn't been tried under Tochert and Foote either).   If we go back to a Schenn like situation (Desharnais),  QHs will be hard pressed to keep it at a PPG pace.    Personally think they are either going to need them to play half the game most nights, or split them up with the current d corp if we want to win enough games to make the post season.    And not sure id even try going in with Hronek as a partner.     QHs needs a big mean long defensive defenseman ideally, i'd settle for even an Aucion type, not a sub six defender with offensive attributes that were under utilized. 

I think that's why they brought in Desharnais and signed him to a 2 year $4 million contract.  I think the coaching staff are very confident they can mold him into a protector for Quinn Hughes.  Not saying he will be paired with him all the time but when the opposing team is taking liberties on Hughes I think Tocch likes that option.  And I hope Willander asserts himself more physicality this year, the Canucks need more of that in their D core.  D-Petey is coming along nicely as well. 

Edited September 6 by Pure961089

[Pure961089]

9 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

again if u watch when we get pinned in our zone.. hughes makes 0 attempts to block shot.. when was the last time u seen him in a blocking position like a EP? Miller plays exclusively with hughes 5v5 and he has more block shots than hughes 5v5 he shoudl have less if hughes usually have the puck like u claim? he's great at puck retrieval when other team dumps it in and get at getting it out.. he's not so great when the other team carries the puck in and establish zone possession as seen in the playoff. stop pretending hughes is a transcendant talent that's changing how the position is played.. he's an amazing offensive defenceman that is decent in the right defensive situation.. and was kinda exposed in the playoff when nashville and edmonton just target and pound him all game. he was avg more block shot in the playoff than he was in the regular season coz we were stuck defending almost every game when the other teams is firing 70-80 shots attempt per game

When we get pinned in our zone it's usually because a forward coughed the puck up.  Quinn Hughes is a specialist at what he does, if you're looking for him to do Chis Pronger things. that's not his game.  His game is preventing mistakes from happening, not reacting after a mistake has happened. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

I may be biased as Quinn is my favourite player ever & I didn't see Bure in a Canucks jersey...

 

I think its still Bure but I'm tempted to go Quinn, I've never seen a player like this in our jersey before, and very few like this in the league. I think he's still going to get better too.

 

Could see Quinn right up there with the Twins & Bure if he re-signs plays his whole prime in Vancouver. 

I wouldn't blame anyone who didn't get to see Bure or doesn't have teenage- young adult memories of him really.    Feel the same thing with Lidstrom and that hype train in the 2000's, who maybe got to see a 40 year old Chelios play, and a 40-42 year old Borque play, an aging Al Mac (who won a Norris with St. Louis).    The only guys he was competing with, was an oft injured Pronger and an aging Niedermayer, who wasn't even close to as good offensively as his long term partner Steven was .. he was asked to play as a defensive defenseman, so he did.   When Lidstrom retired a pile of folks in their teens and early 20's just considered him the GOAT.   And it was pretty comical.   Still is.    Not sure how a guy in his 20's, who can't beat out guys in their 30's and long in the tooth, passed their primes, can be considered a GOAT  more like the debate is he really a top ten all-time defenseman (all those trophies,  trophies aren't made the same though ... Gretzky's Harts and Art Ross's for example, Orr's Norris's ).

 

The quality of competition was nothing like the 70-90's.    Park was partnered with Borque who was very rough on the edges but had all the tools to be great.    That's lost on his story, he learned from Park.   Sure he'd of made it anyways.  Came in with a man physique and tremendous skating, shooting, passing and strength to hit hard.    That's what a GOAT looks like, Norris calibre from 19-42 yikes.   And still Potvin was better.

 

  Then you've got guys like  Robinson, Steven's and Langway.   Murphy.   Howe.   Blake.  All different playing styles.   Coffey, Orr.   Steven's was at least Lidstroms equal, only came close once, and like Borques final season (2nd in Norris) was almost done, he did things Lidstrom couldn't do.   Coffey was literally like having a superstar forward playing defense.   Bowman would sometimes play Federov as a defenseman,  Coffey was a defenseman, who put up points that few forwards ever have.   And for awhile was considered as Orr 2.0.   Borque was in Coffey's shadow during their 20's and the 80's.   Al Mac was well rounded from the start.   Another tier above guy, who at 39 was second in voting, dead puck era was played in his late 30's, all of it, how old was Lidstrom, and who was winning those Norris trophies?  Leetch was pretty great with and without the puck too. 

 

Lidstrom's name came up occasionally in the 90's, but nobody was remotely thinking GOAT, and barely made THN's top 90 of the 90's as an impact D.    Zubov was awesome without the puck too, was a crucial part for those Dallas teams that won a cup and went back to the final.   He scored 71 points at age 37 after the rules changed.    Alfie, who wasn't that special in the 90's, broke 100 points and anchored the best line in hockey at 34...Sakic broke 100 at 37.   Lidstrom also had his only PPG season after the lockout in in his mid 30's, go figure.   Wonder how Al Mac or Leetch would do.   Or Coffey or Orr.   Or Borque or Potvin (the scariest player Gretzky ever played against - in his words, was Potvin, he'd avoid his side like the plague). 

 

Not trying to hijcack your post, but am pointing out that when you see greatness it's really easy to think it couldn't have been better before.   For me, I trust the older generations for guys I can't remember from the 70's and earlier.  Stats are fun to look at, but really don't do much as far as what it was like to actually watch these guys.    If a guys in their 30's well past their peak primes, are wiping the floor with guys in the 20's it's pretty telling.   Bobby Hull's blazing speed  was still talked about in the early 90's,  his shot compared to Brett's etc.   Couldn't debate that. 

 

QHs will also end up in the rafters.    If he re-signs and plays relatively injury free until he's 35-36 with us,  have zero doubt he will become the Canuck GOAT.    As an aside EPs already played about the same many games as Bure did..:just goes to show what sort of impact Bure made.    I highly doubt QHs ends up in the rafters if this is his final season with us, even with one Norris.  Not unless we go to game 7 of the cup final.    QHs still needs a monster playoff for us.  

Edited September 6 by IBatch

[IBatch]

17 hours ago, higgyfan said:

 Bure was not only an extremely fast skater with ultra scoring skills, he was also played

a tough game and was very hard to knock off the puck.  He was one of the best players

of the 1990's.  A definite game breaker.

 

Quinn is showing his worthiness as an incredible mobile dman with fantastic edges and is the

driver of the Canucks game.  He is still not in his prime, so he is still improving his game.  Already

a Norris winner; he will be one of the best dmen of the 2020's.  He is also a game changer.

 

Bure played in an era that was very physical, which took a toll on his body with various injuries.

I suspect that, if he played in todays' NHL, his speed and skill would dominate the game and he

would have a much longer career.  I'd venture to say that Pavel would be top 3 in scoring.

 

 

 

 

I'd say right now he'd be scoring 130-140 points and at least half of those would be goals.   He'd be eating up goalies on a regular basis, already the break-away king, imagine the amount of break-away's he'd get without the redline.    Was tough as heck to defend against with a redline.   And teams couldn't cheat with him on the ice.   Wasn't just a goal scorer, also an elite passer.    Put him with EP, and EP would also be getting 120 points, and 50 goals.   QHs easily breaking 100 too.     Would have been fun to see what he could of achieved outside of the dead puck era ... which was already in full swing back in 93-94.    Players had been complaining for years about the clutching and grabbing.   Mario was always bitching about it.   Hull too.   Nothing sped the game up more than removing the redline and the goons. 

Edited September 6 by IBatch

[The Arrogant Worms]

'His dad pushed him so hard': How Vladimir Bure drove son Pavel to success, and what it cost him

https://canoe.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/obituary-vladimir-bure-drove-pavel-bure-to-success/wcm/8742f11b-8fc8-4950-8619-00576d2ae1d4

[IBatch]

On 9/6/2024 at 12:30 PM, The Arrogant Worms said:

'His dad pushed him so hard': How Vladimir Bure drove son Pavel to success, and what it cost him

https://canoe.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/obituary-vladimir-bure-drove-pavel-bure-to-success/wcm/8742f11b-8fc8-4950-8619-00576d2ae1d4

God forbid.   If you're going to be the best, it's the best.    And yes it often comes at a cost.   A little sacrifice never hurt anyone that much.  A lot, yes. 

Edited September 10 by IBatch

[Guntrix]

On 9/3/2024 at 8:56 AM, IBatch said:

The difference is, Bure would be a regular Hart/Richard  trophy guy in todays game, where as QHs would maybe have to consider becoming a winger to stick in the league back then.   It's the god honest truth.  I don't think he'd make it then based on the bubble and last years post season.   I hope he changes my mind though. 

I’ll flip that on you.

 

We don’t know if Bure would score the same totals he did back then in today’s game. Back then the NHL was much more high scoring than it is today.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Guntrix said:

I’ll flip that on you.

 

We don’t know if Bure would score the same totals he did back then in today’s game. Back then the NHL was much more high scoring than it is today.

No it's not actually.  We are back to mid 90's levels.   Bure played right through the clutch and grab, redline/nuetral ice trap, ballooning goaltender equipment era.   Where guys like Roy and Vernon's SP skyrocketed near the end of their careers.    Quality of goaltending was definitely better too,  aside from a pile of  "vanilla" guys like Beezer and Richter, we had Cujo, Kolzig, Belfour, Hasek, Roy, Broduer etc.

 

  Bure definitely wasn't scoring against chumps.    The dead puck era was already in full swing in the early 90's, it just took awhile to really stick.    It wasn't "much more high",  thanks to the past couple seasons of eye popping numbers, it's right back to circa 93-94.    Also it validates something i've been saying about the goalies and talent levels/expansion.   The league didn't do well past 24 teams.   The USSR truly inserted some excellent talent, same with Sweden and Finland.   However the first 3 teams gobbled all of that up.   There wasn't the same level of guys coming in on a basis to replace for decades after.   We finally are seeing that again.   

Edited September 12 by IBatch