Canadian Military Thread

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

I don't know how we can make that happen? It is almost like there is a thought process that we will have years to upgrade our military as it was prior to WW2. If nothing else the war in Ukraine should be a serious wake up call. Many European countries are now hitting and even exceeding their 2% spending. 

I think the last numbers i saw, Canada is around 1.73 or 1.78%(no time to verify which one it was), substantially higher than at any time in the 2000's. 

darker blue is 2023, lighter blue is 2014

keep in mind we have already added another roughly 0.4% to these numbers. 

Furthermore, it is a little tricky for a LARGE nation like Canada, speaking economically and in land mass terms, to churn out 2% of our GDP in military spending becuase our Economy is one of the biggest in the world. We are around 38 million people paying taxes....with a top seven GDP nation. it isn't easy to hit 2% while trying to keep from overtaxing our people. 

 

[UnkNuk]

4 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Just for shits and giggles, here's some data from https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CAN/canada/military-spending-defense-budget that shows the % of GDP of Canada's military spending.  Some very interesting and identifiable trends below, especially how Mulroney started a trend that Chretien decided to continue with great vigour, followed by a Harper "look at me ma!  no hands!" post-election bump of defense spending and then quietly doing a 180, decimating the military funding to under 1% of GDP.

 

 

I don't think we'll ever get back to early '60 military spending, though.  

 

 

 

I think one factor in the decline of military spending would have been the collapse of the Soviet Union back in 1991.  

[MattJVD]

The 4th ice-breaking patrol ship, HMCS William Hall, has been commissioned at a ceremony in Halifax:

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2024/05/hmcs-william-hall-commissioned-into-service-in-halifax-ns.html

 

Irving Shipbuilding has 2 more ice-breakers under construction for the Navy and 1 for the Coast Guard. A 2nd ship has been ordered for the Coast Guard and construction is expected to start this summer. It will be the final ship of the Harry DeWolf class. Irving will then start work on the RCN's next generation frigates.

[MattJVD]

On 5/12/2024 at 1:28 PM, Optimist Prime said:

I think the last numbers i saw, Canada is around 1.73 or 1.78%(no time to verify which one it was), substantially higher than at any time in the 2000's. 

darker blue is 2023, lighter blue is 2014

keep in mind we have already added another roughly 0.4% to these numbers. 

Furthermore, it is a little tricky for a LARGE nation like Canada, speaking economically and in land mass terms, to churn out 2% of our GDP in military spending becuase our Economy is one of the biggest in the world. We are around 38 million people paying taxes....with a top seven GDP nation. it isn't easy to hit 2% while trying to keep from overtaxing our people. 

 

We're currently at ~1.38-1.4 but the department has laid out budget plans to get to 1.78% by 2030. I take the plans with a small grain of salt, it's fairly common for our governments to make long-term defence commitments that end up being the first things cut when money is tight. However, there are a lot of hefty contracts that have already been signed (F35s, Canadian Surface Combatant, etc) that will be paid for in those years. So some of the increase is fairly certain, but not all. I'd expect defence spending to be somewhere in the middle of those figures by 2030, maybe ~1.60% of GDP. (Barring some catestrophic event, like Canada being involved in a conventional war).

Edited May 20 by MattJVD

[Gurn]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canada-purchasing-16-new-fighter-jets-out-of-current-budget-minister-says/ar-BB1n9vMo?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=87a2c6b4eddb45deba571aab8aaa60f6&ei=60

"

The first 16 of the air force's new F-35 fighters will be paid for out of the current federal budget, even though Canada isn't expected to take delivery of the warplanes until 2026.

Defence Minister Bill Blair pointed to the investment on Monday while defending the Liberal government's military spending plans before a House of Commons committee.

In testimony to Congress, a senior U.S. military official warned late last year that the delivery of stealth fighters ordered by Canada and other allies might be delayed because of ongoing technical problems with the aircraft.

he F-35 program's executive officer, U.S. Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt, told American lawmakers last December that the latest version of the fighter — known as Block 4 — was facing significant development challenges.

Because of testing and supply delays, the Pentagon's F-35 project office followed up on Schmidt's warning last month. It reported that the manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, will be able to deliver only 75 to 110 F-35s in 2024, instead of the 156 that had been expected.

Canada's defence department still cites 2026 as the arrival date for Canada's jets.

Blair testified Monday that the military's current capital budget also includes money for the new C-330 Husky transport and refueling aircraft, as well as the P-8A Poseidon maritime surveillance planes.

Following the minister's testimony before the committee, the country's deputy top military commander, Lt.-Gen. Frances Allen, was asked about the shortage of fighter pilots.

MPs asked Allen for specifics but she said she was unable to state how deep the shortfall might be.

"I would say there's currently less fighter pilots available than we ... would currently wish to be able to do both [NATO and NORAD] missions that we have today, and the training for the transition to the new F 35," she said.

In 2023, commander of the air force Lt.-Gen. Eric Kenny revealed in a interview with The Canadian Press that the branch overall was short nearly 2,000 full-time members and 500 reservists.

He warned at the time that unless things turned around, "there will be insufficient experienced pilots to effectively transition the force onto the F-35 whilst maintaining any meaningful combat capabilities in the remaining two CF-18 HEP II squadrons out to 2032."

Last fall, a study funded by the defence department — a copy of which was obtained by CBC News — said the country's fighter force was "in crisis."

The report by the Royal United Services Institute, a British think-tank, also warned that under the current circumstances, "there will be insufficient experienced pilots to effectively transition the force onto the F-35."

[Gurn]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/blair-announces-training-equipment-deals-at-military-trade-show/ar-BB1ngyoq?bncnt=BroadcastNews_TopStories&ocid=hpmsn&FORM=BNC001&cvid=9a6c685ece434a9badb3072483522c42&ei=48

"OTTAWA — Defence Minister Bill Blair came to the country's largest defence industry trade show on Wednesday to announce billions of dollars in training and equipment deals for the armed forces, and faced yet more questions about Canada's commitment to the NATO spending target.

 

Blair was the morning's keynote speaker at CANSEC, the Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries annual trade show in Ottawa.

He touted the government's updated defence policy, which sets out $73 billion worth of projects and procurements over 20 years, including an additional $8.1 billion in spending in the next four years.

That brings the country closer to the NATO alliance target of spending two per cent of GDP on defence, but still falls short at just 1.76 per cent by 2029-30.

Last week, a group of 23 U.S. senators signed a letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, saying they were concerned and "profoundly disappointed" that Canada won't meet its obligation by the end of the decade.

The senators urged Trudeau to come to the next NATO summit in Washington, D.C., in July with a plan to get to two per cent.

Speaking to reporters, Blair insisted the government is on "a very clear path" and plans to grow defence spending by 27 per cent next year over this year.

"But that increase also requires that we spent that money well, that we produce real value for the investment Canadians are making in defence," he said.

He noted the defence policy does not include cost estimates for projects the government is yet to begin, like a plan to purchase a fleet of submarines, for example.

He said he's confident that with new capabilities, the country will "well exceed" the two per cent target — though he did not say when that may happen.

"I'm very confident I will be able to assure our NATO allies, our American partners, Canada is moving very strongly in an upward trajectory of defence spending. We are going to do what is required," he said.

Blair's announcement Wednesday was for a $2.5-billion deal to buy logistics vehicles for the army and an $11.2-billion deal for flight training for Royal Canadian Air Force pilots.

--------------------------

there is more at the link.

[MattJVD]

12 hours ago, Gurn said:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/blair-announces-training-equipment-deals-at-military-trade-show/ar-BB1ngyoq?bncnt=BroadcastNews_TopStories&ocid=hpmsn&FORM=BNC001&cvid=9a6c685ece434a9badb3072483522c42&ei=48

"OTTAWA — Defence Minister Bill Blair came to the country's largest defence industry trade show on Wednesday to announce billions of dollars in training and equipment deals for the armed forces, and faced yet more questions about Canada's commitment to the NATO spending target.

 

Blair was the morning's keynote speaker at CANSEC, the Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries annual trade show in Ottawa.

He touted the government's updated defence policy, which sets out $73 billion worth of projects and procurements over 20 years, including an additional $8.1 billion in spending in the next four years.

That brings the country closer to the NATO alliance target of spending two per cent of GDP on defence, but still falls short at just 1.76 per cent by 2029-30.

Last week, a group of 23 U.S. senators signed a letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, saying they were concerned and "profoundly disappointed" that Canada won't meet its obligation by the end of the decade.

The senators urged Trudeau to come to the next NATO summit in Washington, D.C., in July with a plan to get to two per cent.

Speaking to reporters, Blair insisted the government is on "a very clear path" and plans to grow defence spending by 27 per cent next year over this year.

"But that increase also requires that we spent that money well, that we produce real value for the investment Canadians are making in defence," he said.

He noted the defence policy does not include cost estimates for projects the government is yet to begin, like a plan to purchase a fleet of submarines, for example.

He said he's confident that with new capabilities, the country will "well exceed" the two per cent target — though he did not say when that may happen.

"I'm very confident I will be able to assure our NATO allies, our American partners, Canada is moving very strongly in an upward trajectory of defence spending. We are going to do what is required," he said.

Blair's announcement Wednesday was for a $2.5-billion deal to buy logistics vehicles for the army and an $11.2-billion deal for flight training for Royal Canadian Air Force pilots.

--------------------------

there is more at the link.

The bolded seems particularly important in light of the Royal United Services report on our pilot rediness you shared in a previous post. Glad to see that get done.

[Bure_Pavel]

Canada needs to hit the 2% NATO target next year, its a reasonable request, 2030 is not good enough. NATO is being tested and any weakness could result in additional decline of global stability. There is a major European war going on and USA and China are butting heads, should be an easy call.    

[King Heffy]

5 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Canada needs to hit the 2% NATO target next year, its a reasonable request, 2030 is not good enough. NATO is being tested and any weakness could result in additional decline of global stability. There is a major European war going on and USA and China are butting heads, should be an easy call.    

I'd prefer to exceed it to start making up for the years of neglect by all governing parties.

[UnkNuk]

3 hours ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Canada needs to hit the 2% NATO target next year, its a reasonable request, 2030 is not good enough. NATO is being tested and any weakness could result in additional decline of global stability. There is a major European war going on and USA and China are butting heads, should be an easy call.    

 

I think Canada should honour its commitment.  But to do it in one year would be difficult.  We're talking about spending an extra $20 billion dollars per year on the military.  Where would that money come from?  Debt?  Higher taxes?  Slashed spending in other areas?

 

A 2023 CBC article about this:

 

Canada pledged to spend 2% of GDP on its military. Would that transform it? Is it affordable?

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/gdp-nato-military-spending-canada-1.6912028

[Warhippy]

I will go one further.  I don't want Canada spending a dime more on current arms and armaments when we see what Ukraine is doing with $200 drones to $100 million pieces of equipment.

 

If Canada is going to be spending tens if not hundreds of billions on new equipment, I'd rather see it go towards the implementation of new tactics and ideas that embrace the modern battlefield.

 

Imagine spending $100 million on new ships only to have a smaller nation take them out with what amounts to heavily armed wakeboard drones.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

29 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I will go one further.  I don't want Canada spending a dime more on current arms and armaments when we see what Ukraine is doing with $200 drones to $100 million pieces of equipment.

 

If Canada is going to be spending tens if not hundreds of billions on new equipment, I'd rather see it go towards the implementation of new tactics and ideas that embrace the modern battlefield.

 

Imagine spending $100 million on new ships only to have a smaller nation take them out with what amounts to heavily armed wakeboard drones.

 

First though - we'll need to find a way to bring in those "outside the box" thinkers who can come up with the novel tactics and strategies that will usurp "traditional warfare" approaches.  I think that's where our real bottleneck is.

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

I will go one further.  I don't want Canada spending a dime more on current arms and armaments when we see what Ukraine is doing with $200 drones to $100 million pieces of equipment.

 

If Canada is going to be spending tens if not hundreds of billions on new equipment, I'd rather see it go towards the implementation of new tactics and ideas that embrace the modern battlefield.

 

Imagine spending $100 million on new ships only to have a smaller nation take them out with what amounts to heavily armed wakeboard drones.

I'd like a good chunk of that to go towards improving pay and pensions for the CAF to handle the shortage in personnel.  We historically have very well trained troops but that won't continue if too many of the experienced members leave with no one left to train the new recruits adequately when we finally address the problem.  Build more military housing, especially in relatively expensive cities like Victoria.

[MattJVD]

3 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I'd like a good chunk of that to go towards improving pay and pensions for the CAF to handle the shortage in personnel.  We historically have very well trained troops but that won't continue if too many of the experienced members leave with no one left to train the new recruits adequately when we finally address the problem.  Build more military housing, especially in relatively expensive cities like Victoria.

I'm on the fence about the pay. Yes it would help with recruitment and retention, but having larger and larger chunks of the budget going to payroll isn't a capability add. In 2015 as a 23 year old Corporal with just a high-school education I was making well over $70k. That seems pretty good? (Has increased a fair bit since then too).

 

The housing is a big one though, 100% on agree on that. Particularly (like you said) in high cost of living areas. It's a two fold solution too: Increase quality of life and retention for serving members, while also taking those members who get on-base housing out of the real-estate/rental market in that area. Could ease some of the demand pressures on the market for the general public in those cities.

[Bure_Pavel]

On 5/31/2024 at 3:34 PM, UnkNuk said:

 

I think Canada should honour its commitment.  But to do it in one year would be difficult.  We're talking about spending an extra $20 billion dollars per year on the military.  Where would that money come from?  Debt?  Higher taxes?  Slashed spending in other areas?

 

A 2023 CBC article about this:

 

Canada pledged to spend 2% of GDP on its military. Would that transform it? Is it affordable?

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/gdp-nato-military-spending-canada-1.6912028

Its based on a percentage of GDP, and 2% is not an unreasonable amount, that money could be found pretty easily if they wanted. Other G7 countries have found the money, this money is currently being used on way less important programs.  

[Warhippy]

22 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Its based on a percentage of GDP, and 2% is not an unreasonable amount, that money could be found pretty easily if they wanted. Other G7 countries have found the money, this money is currently being used on way less important programs.  

What do you define as less important?

[Bure_Pavel]

34 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

What do you define as less important?

I tend to refer to Maslow Hierarchy when deciding the importance.

 

 

[MattJVD]

The future HMCS Frèdèrick Rolette was officially named at a ceremony in Halifax yesterday. It will be delivered to the RCN later this year. HMCS Frèdèrick Rolette is the 5th (of 6 ordered) icebreaking patrol ships built in Halifax. We're getting close to the class being completed so the shipyard can start on the new frigates.

 

Ceremony video: 

 

 

[Gurn]

Fewer and fewer of these men are left

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canadian-d-day-veteran-bill-cameron-dies-just-days-before-80th-anniversary-events/ar-BB1nD3MY?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=d36e62e3f90a456e894cc0c0de02e546&ei=52

"

 

"

 Bill Cameron was looking forward to this week for a long time.

The Second World War veteran was planning to be part of Canada's delegation heading to Normandy, France, to mark the 80th anniversary of D-Day on June 6.

Last Friday, his daughters Cheryl Powell and Donna Roy helped him get ready and the three had lunch together.

After months of preparation, including getting medical clearance, everything was set for a Saturday morning flight from Vancouver.

Sadly, Cameron fell ill and died the night before at 100 years old.

"We just couldn't believe it," Roy said in an interview. "His bag was totally packed. We were ready to pick him up."

Powell said the staff at the care home where he lived had planned a special sendoff, knowing how excited he was for the trip. The last few days have been surreal, she said.

"He went for the 70th (anniversary), he was there for the 75th, and he so wanted to go to the 80th, knowing that it was his last time to stand on Juno Beach to just honour those other vets," Roy said.

Cameron's death leaves the Canadian delegation with just 13 veterans, between the ages of 99 and 104. It seems likely that this will be the last major anniversary event to involve the men who witnessed D-Day.

June 6, 1944, marked the beginning of the bloody 11-week Battle of Normandy and the start of the Allied liberation of France.

Almost 160,000 troops landed on the beaches of Normandy that day, including around 14,000 Canadians. Cameron was a gunner on board HMCS Kitchener, which helped protect American troops landing at Omaha Beach.

The landing was devastating: 4,414 Allied troops were killed on D-Day and more than 5,000 were wounded.

During the Battle of Normandy, 73,000 Allied forces were killed and 153,000 wounded. The battle — and especially Allied bombings of French villages and cities — killed around 20,000 French civilians.

The exact German casualties aren't known, but historians estimate between 4,000 and 9,000 men were killed, wounded or missing during the D-Day invasion alone. About 22,000 German soldiers are among the many buried around Normandy.

----------------

a bit more at link

[112]

It's the 80th anniversary of D-Day today. Thank you to all who've served.

[Ilunga]

I know this is a Canadian military thread, and June the 6th was yesterday here in Aus.

 

However I want to honour the memory of my father who fought on the beach on D-day. 

 

He actually didn't even make it up the beach, he was severely wounded.

The doctors told him if he moved to a warmer he might live into his forties.

He made it to 87. 

 

He was the best man I have ever known. 

A true gentle man. 

 

He taught me about strength of will, self belief and more importantly kindness, compassion and empathy for others.

 

Thank you dad for choosing me to be your son.

 

He never wanted to talk much about the war, and he never carried anger or hatred in his heart. 

 

To all those who fought for us in WW2, thank you. 

They were truly fighting for other peoples freedom.

 

[112]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I know this is a Canadian military thread, and June the 6th was yesterday here in Aus.

 

However I want to honour the memory of my father who fought on the beach on D-day. 

 

He actually didn't even make it up the beach, he was severely wounded.

The doctors told him if he moved to a warmer he might live into his forties.

He made it to 87. 

 

He was the best man I have ever known. 

A true gentle man. 

 

He taught me about strength of will, self belief and more importantly kindness, compassion and empathy for others.

 

Thank you dad for choosing me to be your son.

 

He never wanted to talk much about the war, and he never carried anger or hatred in his heart. 

 

To all those who fought for us in WW2, thank you. 

They were truly fighting for other peoples freedom.

 

My grandfather fought in WWII; he was going to land on D-Day but was not ultimately able to because he had athlete's foot--thank God, or I might not be here. I've heard that Juno had a 50% casualty rate, and apparently my grandmother (once?) joked that if he had landed he would've been the first one on the beach, storming forward like hell only to get gunned down immediately because of the perils. He also didn't talk much about the war, and we're not certain about where exactly he was for the duration of it, but my dad speculates that he fought in the Dutch liberation because the timeline adds up and obviously that was one of Canada's major roles in the war. Rest in Peace to your dad, Ilunga. I never met my grandfather but still have a connection to him through my dad, and it's nice to hear stories about him. Great post.

[Ilunga]

14 hours ago, 112 said:

My grandfather fought in WWII; he was going to land on D-Day but was not ultimately able to because he had athlete's foot--thank God, or I might not be here. I've heard that Juno had a 50% casualty rate, and apparently my grandmother (once?) joked that if he had landed he would've been the first one on the beach, storming forward like hell only to get gunned down immediately because of the perils. He also didn't talk much about the war, and we're not certain about where exactly he was for the duration of it, but my dad speculates that he fought in the Dutch liberation because the timeline adds up and obviously that was one of Canada's major roles in the war. Rest in Peace to your dad, Ilunga. I never met my grandfather but still have a connection to him through my dad, and it's nice to hear stories about him. Great post.

 

Thanks @112

 

Glad your grandad made it through WW2.

Went on to father your dad, who fathered you.

 

This place wouldn't be the same without you. 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

My grandmother and many of our grandmothers deserve much respects and accolades for fighting in their own ways, and for raising our parents in wartime so that ‘we’ could be here to argue about a buncha stuff online. 
 

Wish they could get medals too. 

[Gurn]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/sending-canadian-vessel-to-cuba-alongside-russia-s-was-carefully-planned-minister/ar-BB1okfiG?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5fc52605fc0f49588ab110dad3a12ff9&ei=44

OTTAWA — National Defence Minister Bill Blair's office is defending the decision to send a Canadian ship to Cuba where it docked alongside some of Russia's fleet, calling it a "carefully" planned move to increase its presence in the region.

Spokesman Daniel Minden issued a statement on Sunday saying the visit to Havana's port "was carefully and fulsomely planned," and the minister authorized it on the advice of the Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Joint Operations Command.

--------------------------------------

mal

----------------------------------------------

Seems the Conservatives believe Trudeau personally authorized and signed off on this mission- otherwise- why mention him at all?