your thoughts ?

[Joe King]

35 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

One easy way to get young people in trades. 

 

Graduates from highschool can do Entry Level Trades Training ( Foundation Program ) 32 weeks - level 1.

 

Free for highschool grads if they start in Sept after grad.

 

Right now they pay 6000 for this program......    Make it free if they do straight from highschool.     Run a bus from a central highschool location so free transportation also. 

This I like.The students should be able to try more than one trade to make sure its a good fit.If they are a good fit and they like it as well they will probably stick with it until they are ready to retire.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Joe King said:

I am a trades person,almost ready to retire. I have witnessed on more than one occasion that there is sometimes one person more qualified than another.

Some jobs require more physical ability some more intellectual ability. 

So I am claiming there are times when there is the best person for a particular job. And if the government wants to help people that are not a particularly good fit in their chosen trade it should be done properly.

 

sure some people have more innate skill than others - but isn't the question whether or not they can complete the task properly in the time given? rather than who's the best one? I can see it for something like putting up drywall maybe, where strength and speed could play in. But other places like a lot of electrical work, plumbing, operating/driving equipment, etc. that seems like its more of a task on time thing to me. 

 

and at the apprentice level, I'm not sure anyone can know who's best at what yet. 

 

2 minutes ago, Joe King said:

 

I wonder is throwing more money at something the best solution. I agree with helping but on a person to person basis.

 

yeah I'm not sure how the perceived discrimination thing gets dealt with.

 

[Ryan Strome]

@Bob Long just for clarification, Alberta is doing a similar thing. I think they're giving $2,000 to people that bring a specific skill set to Alberta. Ie trades, nurses, doctors, anti Trudeau bc'ers, etc. But that being said, it's my understanding that that is eligible to everybody, not just specific people. So I guess you do have a point. I mean. How do we address these issues without using monetary proposals? I guess I just don't like the idea that it excludes people, but you are making some compelling points here along with other members.

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

 

So I quoted both because I think it is important what Bob is saying and maybe many of us are overlooking that myself included. We legitimately have houses that cannot be built because we don't have carpenters and framers to do it. Our population is growing at a faster rate than it ever has before. My personal preference would be to slow it down a little bit, but that is not the preference of both main political parties in this country. So if we want to go this route of getting more people in so they make more money in taxes, we need places for people to live because at the rate we're going now, my kids will be paying 5 million for an apartment unfortunately they'll have to ask somebody else because Dad will have to give the big no to that one lol.

 

focusing on the business and economic reasons to do things does tend to cut through the crap. I see environmental stuff the same way, find the right business solution not whatever your individual moral thing is. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

@Bob Long just for clarification, Alberta is doing a similar thing. I think they're giving $2,000 to people that bring a specific skill set to Alberta. Ie trades, nurses, doctors, anti Trudeau bc'ers, etc. But that being said, it's my understanding that that is eligible to everybody, not just specific people. So I guess you do have a point. I mean. How do we address these issues without using monetary proposals? I guess I just don't like the idea that it excludes people, but you are making some compelling points here along with other members.

 

thats the thing, we need more employees otherwise we're all really screwed. 

[Joe King]

My hope is that no one gets overlooked or gets chosen over some else because there is short term easy money to be made by choosing A person over B person. I have seen people being chosen over another person because they are known by a family friend for example. It does cause friction. I just hope this has been carefully thought out.

[moosehead]

19 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

thats the thing, we need more employees otherwise we're all really screwed. 

BC gov funds students probably approx 100 K for each's education  to highschool graduation.

Highschool grads have next to zero job skills in todays skills trades economy.

 

Would' it not make sense to spend another 10 K on a student that decided to pursue a skill trade for their year 13 year.

 

School districts could run a few program on their sites for most popular trades....   Carpentry, Electrical, Welding  Auto  

Other programs could be offered at post secondary sites. -  but school district runs a free bus to help students that don'd have cars yet......

 

We in BC need to think creatively and reduce barriers for our youth so they can acquire real job skills in  jobs that can pay liveable wages in this expensive BC market. 

 

[Canuckle]

7 minutes ago, Joe King said:

My hope is that no one gets overlooked or gets chosen over some else because there is short term easy money to be made by choosing A person over B person. I have seen people being chosen over another person because they are known by a family friend for example. It does cause friction. I just hope this has been carefully thought out.

It's a foot in the door for people who would otherwise be traditionally rejected from the getgo based on things other than abilities. Race, color, creed, gender, perceived physical handicaps, etc. Individuals will still have to show they can do the job properly to keep the job. This is just a tactic to address discriminatory selection criteria, judging books by their covers kinda thing.

[moosehead]

25 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

thats the thing, we need more employees otherwise we're all really screwed. 

 

Woman in BC have access to more ITA grant money than males...  Been that way for a while i think. 

ITA grant money can be used to pay for level training at the post sec. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by moosehead

[Optimist Prime]

13 hours ago, Canuckle said:

Incentivizing employers to hire individuals from traditionally marginalized and disenfranchised populations is a good thing.

 

What's the issue.

I tend to agree with you in general on this. I can also see the issue some have, and most of them won't realize it is an issue with systems. Systems of child rearing and cultural reinforcement et cetera. Most of the, to jump to the extreme for illistrative purposes, racist people I have come across, they don't realize they are racist. My mom thanked a white woman once saying "You have very nice help dear, he held the door for me after you went through even though I was ten yards away." ...face palm...the black man was her husband, not her help. 

 

in the followup conversation with my mom about it privately in her old folks appartment she was extremely hurt that I thought she was being racist. When she was a girl, they had help, and the help was coloured folks. 

 

Just an anecdote, not looking for any arguments. I like to think most folks in Canada are not racists per se, but most of us from European decendants have inherited a culture through no fault of our own that is tinged with racism. Touchy subject, i am not looking to offend anyone.

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

BC gov funds students probably approx 100 K for each's education  to highschool graduation.

Highschool grads have next to zero job skills in todays skills trades economy.

 

Would' it not make sense to spend another 10 K on a student that decided to pursue a skill trade for their year 13 year.

 

School districts could run a few program on their sites for most popular trades....   Carpentry, Electrical, Welding  Auto  

Other programs could be offered at post secondary sites. -  but school district runs a free bus to help students that don'd have cars yet......

 

We in BC need to think creatively and reduce barriers for our youth so they can acquire real job skills in  jobs that can pay liveable wages in this expensive BC market. 

 

Yes.

 

They should do both.

 

Not everything need be an either or scenario.

 

Incentive employers to heed equal opportunity, and give kids that same equal opportunity with practical skills training... if they so desire.

 

[moosehead]

Problems we are seeing today...

 

Nurse and Teaching Programs - 5-7 years.....   so cost is over 100 K for a  kid to do this.  If you add in lost income.... probably 200 K.

First year teacher and nurses probably need to use a food bank due to low entry level wage. 

 

Trades -  Foundation program  8 month full time is 6 or 7 K.    If you count lost income... then. 50 K .

AST jobs start at 18-20 bucks an hour in a shop. after this program. 

 

 

We are seeing shortages in kids that are willing to pay / commit to these programs / careers..... ?

 

Yes in the long run these may be solid career choices... but many youth / and their families don't have the resources to pursue these training programs.

 

 

 

 

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I tend to agree with you in general on this. I can also see the issue some have, and most of them won't realize it is an issue with systems. Systems of child rearing and cultural reinforcement et cetera. Most of the, to jump to the extreme for illistrative purposes, racist people I have come across, they don't realize they are racist. My mom thanked a white woman once saying "You have very nice help dear, he held the door for me after you went through even though I was ten yards away." ...face palm...the black man was her husband, not her help. 

 

in the followup conversation with my mom about it privately in her old folks appartment she was extremely hurt that I thought she was being racist. When she was a girl, they had help, and the help was coloured folks. 

 

Just an anecdote, not looking for any arguments. I like to think most folks in Canada are not racists per se, but most of us from European decendants have inherited a culture through no fault of our own that is tinged with racism. Touchy subject, i am not looking to offend anyone.

 

You're spot on my friend.

 

The roots are deep in this country. I mean christ. John A MacDonald with the policy to "settle the west" with exclusively white northern Europeans, the history of genocide of First Nations peoples.

 

Even in Vancouver with the long tradition of Chinese exclusion policy's "head tax" etc. and overt racism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Oriental_riots_(Vancouver)

 

It's.... in everything. Especially the economy.

 

But unless we make actual steps to changing those underlying beliefs, value systems, with whatever tactic neccessary, bigotry, hated and frankly false consciousness will live on.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness

 

[Canuckle]

54 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

....I'm not sure how the perceived discrimination thing gets dealt with.

 

Percieved by the uneducated, yeah.

 

It's not true though.

[Kootenay Gold]

2 hours ago, moosehead said:

School districts could run a few program on their sites for most popular trades....   Carpentry, Electrical, Welding  Auto  

Other programs could be offered at post secondary sites. -  but school district runs a free bus to help students that don'd have cars yet...

I'm originally from Alberta. I was born and lived there till graduation. Not sure what is offered these days but when I was in high school in the mid to late 60's, most of the trades you mentioned were options that you could take along with regular course programming. They were all credited courses; most were 5 credit but electronics was a 5 credit course in the  1st year and 15 credit course in the 2nd year. Lots of my fellow students that were just average students opted to take up one of the trades as a backup plan if they did not have the marks or money to go to university. It proved to be a very good option in my case.

 

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, moosehead said:

We in BC need to think creatively and reduce barriers for our youth so they can acquire real job skills in  jobs that can pay liveable wages in this expensive BC market. 

In a lot of cases, i think the biggest barrier is their parents, or the situation they were raised in, lets say.

 

I have a young couple that were asking in a local FB group for work and I needed some yard work done, they were asking 25 an hour each. I got in touch and showed them what I wanted done, and explained the way i wanted it done and told them I would pay 30 an hour because they are worth that. 

 

over a few months now it has become very clear they dont have the basic skills to listen and follow simple direction. I get about 90% value out of the fellow who probably had to do chores as a boy growing up but his partner I get about 45% value out of, as she takes smoke breaks often at will, checks her phone at least once for several minutes every 15 minutes and spends a lot of time trying to look busy with almost zero results. They are simply rippingout weeds and putting down mulch and landscaping fabric, I give them ten minutes of instruction per 2 or 3 hour visits and often have to refocus them, redirect them and keep it rolling myself. The other day they agreed to a nine AM start and by now I was used to them so I expected them for 9:15..at 9:30 they texted to say their day didn't start out the way they hoped and they couldn't make it. Luckily I am not in a rush..

 

Small sample size, but these two don't appear to be impaired or challenged, they seem like normal 20somethings today appear and act: that is to say if the job was more serious or needed better skillsets I would have fired them months back...but I feel I am helping them exist as they live in an old camper and move often from one parents property to the next. My impression is that neither of their parents prepared them for life, but the man moreso than the woman in teh the team. I have not witnessed anything that would lend to say higher learning would help them, maybe the trades? But to even learn a trade you need work ethic and self motivation, this is nonexistent.

 

Just an anecdote, but it leaves me wondering how many parents gave up on their jobs and let TVs and phones raise their kids.

[Optimist Prime]

21 minutes ago, Kootenay Gold said:

I'm originally from Alberta. I was born and lived there till graduation. Not sure what is offered these days but when I was in high school in the mid to late 60's, most of the trades you mentioned were options that you could take along with regular course programming. They were all credited courses; most were 5 credit but electronics was a 5 credit course in the  1st year and 15 credit course in the 2nd year. Lots of my fellow students that were just average students opted to take up one of the trades as a backup plan if they did not have the marks or money to go to university. It proved to be a very good option in my case.

 

several of my nephews paid to take heavy eqpt operator courses, costing like 20 or 25k at the time each...and now they are making between 150 and 200k in Alberta. Trades jobs can pay off, not sure about governments paying the bills, but that is an option i guess. I know my fam paid for their own training and took their futures in their own hands. 

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, moosehead said:

BC gov funds students probably approx 100 K for each's education  to highschool graduation.

Highschool grads have next to zero job skills in todays skills trades economy.

 

Would' it not make sense to spend another 10 K on a student that decided to pursue a skill trade for their year 13 year.

 

School districts could run a few program on their sites for most popular trades....   Carpentry, Electrical, Welding  Auto  

Other programs could be offered at post secondary sites. -  but school district runs a free bus to help students that don'd have cars yet......

 

We in BC need to think creatively and reduce barriers for our youth so they can acquire real job skills in  jobs that can pay liveable wages in this expensive BC market. 

 

Makes sense to me 

[Kootenay Gold]

19 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

several of my nephews paid to take heavy eqpt operator courses, costing like 20 or 25k at the time each...and now they are making between 150 and 200k in Alberta. Trades jobs can pay off, not sure about governments paying the bills, but that is an option i guess. I know my fam paid for their own training and took their futures in their own hands. 

To clarify; the courses were credited to your scholastic record as part of the needed credit requirements not as part of an apprenticeship program. The benefit was that it was much easier for a company looking to apprentice an employee if he already had learned a few of the basics while still in high school. Times were much different in the 60's as there were a lot of starter jobs for kids coming out of high school whether they got their grade 12 or not. Heck, we had employees working for the company that only had grade 7 education. By the time I retired 43 years later, you could not even get on pushing a broom unless you had your grade 12

[The Arrogant Worms]

The School district here has programs where you can learn a trade while going to high school.

 

The plumber I use actually had to advertise for an apprentice willing to learn his trade.

Edited October 8, 2023 by The Arrogant Worms

[The Lock]

I think all I'm really going to say is I'm for equality, provided equality means who gets a job (and the pay) is determined by qualifications regardless of race, gender, or any of that stuff.

 

Because, at the end of the day, not every job will ever be an equal split no matter how hard we try.

Edited October 8, 2023 by The Lock

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Kootenay Gold said:

To clarify; the courses were credited to your scholastic record as part of the needed credit requirements not as part of an apprenticeship program. The benefit was that it was much easier for a company looking to apprentice an employee if he already had learned a few of the basics while still in high school. Times were much different in the 60's as there were a lot of starter jobs for kids coming out of high school whether they got their grade 12 or not. Heck, we had employees working for the company that only had grade 7 education. By the time I retired 43 years later, you could not even get on pushing a broom unless you had your grade 12

Oh for sure, i got that, was replying somewhat off your topic but felt it was adjacent enough to quote you. Sorry for the confusion. I took plastics in Grade 11 and 12, learned how to extrude, weld (for lack of a better word) manipulate and create with all kinds of plastic. Never went into the field, but I am happy I have some rudimentary understandings of the stuff, after all it will be around for a few thousand years after I am done this juice. 

[moosehead]

3 hours ago, Kootenay Gold said:

To clarify; the courses were credited to your scholastic record as part of the needed credit requirements not as part of an apprenticeship program. The benefit was that it was much easier for a company looking to apprentice an employee if he already had learned a few of the basics while still in high school. Times were much different in the 60's as there were a lot of starter jobs for kids coming out of high school whether they got their grade 12 or not. Heck, we had employees working for the company that only had grade 7 education. By the time I retired 43 years later, you could not even get on pushing a broom unless you had your grade 12

 

Nowdays all kids graduate grade 12 . No student is left behind.   Things have changed....    LOL. 

[The Lock]

5 minutes ago, moosehead said:

Nowdays all kids graduate grade 12 . No student is left behind.   Things have changed....    LOL. 

 

So there's a double-edged sword with your comment in my opinion. It either could mean things are worse because you think some kids don't deserve to graduate or it could mean the system's getting better and we're figuring out how to get kids to learn.

 

Either way, I don't know if you intended for the outcome of what you're saying if I'm to base it on the tone of your post...

Edited October 9, 2023 by The Lock

[moosehead]

10 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

So there's a double-edged sword with your comment in my opinion. It either could mean things are worse because you think some kids don't deserve to graduate or it could mean the system's getting better and we're figuring out how to get kids to learn.

 

Either way, I don't know if you intended for the outcome of what you're saying if I'm to base it on the tone of your post...

 

BC government has removed all grade 12 provincial exams.

No standardized exams done now required to graduate.

 

Guess what that means....

Edited October 9, 2023 by moosehead