your thoughts ?

[moosehead]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

Great point but how would that advance the government's never ending gender and race politics?

 

I don't care about race and gender issues.... I treat everyone the same and i don't care what others do in their bedrooms....

 

My post was to help solve our trades worker shortage.     Our young kids often can't afford cars and cars insurance.

Give them free trade training and a bus to the post secondary location - remove barriers.  

Employers can think about care pooling or running a van to job sites.   Once the kids get established they can afford cars and car insurance. 

[Ryan Strome]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

but this is the problem today, this is about jobs. Why are we bringing in this other culture war crap? sports has nothing to do with the jobs we need to fill. 

 

So if not this program, then what? how do we get more women looking at the trades, e.g.?

 

Would it still be discriminatory if someone could prove to you that the extra money was actually needed for a legit reason?

It's discriminatory because it only benefits certain people. You are a very smart individual my friend. Please don't act as if you don't understand that point.

 

While it may be about jobs and I agree, we need to fill those rolls I would argue @moosehead offered a common sense solution.

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

One easy way to get young people in trades. 

 

Graduates from highschool can do Entry Level Trades Training ( Foundation Program ) 32 weeks - level 1.

 

Free for highschool grads if they start in Sept after grad.

 

Right now they pay 6000 for this program......    Make it free if they do straight from highschool.     Run a bus from a central highschool location so free transportation also. 

 

thats a good idea. If we could get more people teaching trades that could encourage everyone to see it as a viable option that could help too. 

 

[bishopshodan]

So this is only for small and medium businesses. Why is that?

 

From the employer side, does this give them a bit of help vs the big guys?

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

I don't care about race and gender issues.... I treat everyone the same and i don't care what others do in their bedrooms....

 

My post was to help solve our trades worker shortage.     Our young kids often can't afford cars and cars insurance.

Give them free trade training and a bus to the post secondary location - remove barriers.  

Employers can think about care pooling or running a van to job sites.   Once the kids get established they can afford cars and car insurance. 

I very much agree with the point you were making. I was being a smart-ass because we have governments all over the place, especially in Ottawa that loves to play gender and race politics

[moosehead]

BC gov probably pays 6-8 k a year per student for education K -12

 

Why not have our bc gov pay a year 13 for BC students that want to go into trades........ ?

 

So many hiighschool kids could be helped with their applicatioins / encouraged... and a free program would be a huge incentive for many youth

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

It's discriminatory because it only benefits certain people. You are a very smart individual my friend. Please don't act as if you don't understand that point.

 

While it may be about jobs and I agree, we need to fill those rolls I would argue @moosehead offered a common sense solution.

 

but what if certain people actually need a bit more help to get into the trades? we know how unfriendly trades can be to many folks, so there's that barrier to overcome somehow. 

 

Its not easy to solve for sure. We know we need jobs filled, and we know many groups could do the job but don't want to enter the trades. Is there any way to do that, where someone doesn't see it as discriminatory? is it actually discriminatory to provide more incentive when we know there are real cultural barriers to overcome?

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

So this is only for small and medium businesses. Why is that?

 

From the employer side, does this give them a bit of help vs the big guys?

Big corporations don't need the helping hand and to be honest big corporations are actually doing a lot for putting women in the workplace and for putting minorities in the workplace. That being said, I believe there is likely already incentives for them to be doing this. But I don't know for sure but it's my guess.

[Canuckle]

3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

That is the question we need to figure out. Imo this policy is discriminatory it also allows for fraud just like in female sports. While I can agree it is harder for some I would know because what @Canuckle doesn't understand I'm not European white is as it relates to transgender, employers or schools would not be discriminating against them as they wouldn't know the individuals biological gender.

Lol you didn't call anything. You haven't made a point. Meow.

 

You didn't follow up on your original point until I called you out on it and I already knew where it was going. Fucking called it.

 

You're simply uneducated on these matters. All there is to it. Speaking about things to which you cannot legitimately speak to but here you are flapping your lips. But hey it's the internet so what else is new.

 

The only discriminatory thing we're seeing here are your comments and you don't even understand how.

 

Double woof.

[Ryan Strome]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

but what if certain people actually need a bit more help to get into the trades? we know how unfriendly trades can be to many folks, so there's that barrier to overcome somehow. 

 

Its not easy to solve for sure. We know we need jobs filled, and we know many groups could do the job but don't want to enter the trades. Is there any way to do that, where someone doesn't see it as discriminatory? is it actually discriminatory to provide more incentive when we know there are real cultural barriers to overcome?

Well, I don't buy into the transgender argument because nobody would have any way of knowing their biological gender. As for minorities and people of colour I do agree they're likely is still challenges in the country. I also agree women in trades is probably a tough one as it's dominated by men. So yes there is something that can be done but I hate these things that only help certain individuals. Small business owners don't seem to like all the tax breaks that big business gets and while we seem to get on board and say it's not fair, should we say maybe it is fair because actually they employ a lot of people and they pay high wages most of the time.

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

Big corporations don't need the helping hand and to be honest big corporations are actually doing a lot for putting women in the workplace and for putting minorities in the workplace. That being said, I believe there is likely already incentives for them to be doing this. But I don't know for sure but it's my guess.

 

Sure , they probably dont need it but wonder was if it does anything for the small/med businesses... Maybe helps them be competitive? 

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

You didn't follow up on your original point until I called you out on it and I already knew where it was going. Fucking called it.

 

You're simply uneducated on these matters. All there is to it. Speaking about things to which you cannot legitimately speak to but here you are flapping your lips. But hey it's the internet so what else is new.

 

The only discriminatory thing we're seeing here are your comments and you don't even understand how.

 

Double woof.

The block list just keeps growing. Cheers man. Happy Thanksgiving

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

but what if certain people actually need a bit more help to get into the trades? we know how unfriendly trades can be to many folks, so there's that barrier to overcome somehow. 

 

Its not easy to solve for sure. We know we need jobs filled, and we know many groups could do the job but don't want to enter the trades. Is there any way to do that, where someone doesn't see it as discriminatory? is it actually discriminatory to provide more incentive when we know there are real cultural barriers to overcome?

 Cultural, racial, albleist exclusion... the list is long and systemic racism and classism runs deep. Incentivizing employers to break previous barriers to entry and the the proverbial glass ceiling is a good thing.

 

But of course people who benefited from that long history of privilege are up in arms like they are being left out of the fun.  It's pathetic.

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Sure , they probably dont need it but wonder was if it does anything for the small/med businesses... Maybe helps them be competitive? 

Well I guess we could have an election any day from now until 2025. So I guess it's always good to court small business.

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

The block list just keeps growing. Cheers man. Happy Thanksgiving

 

Triple woof

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

Well, I don't buy into the transgender argument because nobody would have any way of knowing their biological gender.

 

tbh I see the trans stuff as one of the worst magnets for degrading these arguments. Its a literal handful of people, its not going to move the needle one way or another on almost any topic (other than maybe a few rare sports issues?) and yet it gets so much attention and tends to derail otherwise potentially useful discussions. 

 

My daughter was very active in her schools GSA, and I did meet a few trans kids during her high school years at events we helped her host. Literally the least threatening group of people I've ever seen. The overreaction to that issue makes me shake my head. 

 

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

 

As for minorities and people of colour I do agree they're likely is still challenges in the country. I also agree women in trades is probably a tough one as it's dominated by men. So yes there is something that can be done but I hate these things that only help certain individuals. Small business owners don't seem to like all the tax breaks that big business gets and while we seem to get on board and say it's not fair, should we say maybe it is fair because actually they employ a lot of people and they pay high wages most of the time.

 

I mean look at your experience, and the crap you dealt with, now layer people not wanting to work with you because you were female or gay. No kidding people don't want to enter the trades.

 

So... how to make this fair.... I do agree fully that small businesses should get the bulk of tax breaks to make the changes needed. 

 

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 Cultural, racial, albleist exclusion... the list is long and systemic racism and classism runs deep. Incentivizing employers to break previous barriers to entry and the the proverbial glass ceiling is a good thing.

 

But of course people who benefited from that long history of privilege are up in arms like they are being left out of the fun.  It's pathetic.

 

its worse, I think we do have tradespeople who would be happy to work with a diverse group, but our media obsession with having discussions in a certain way pulls people into ideas like they are being discriminated against when they are the ones with the good paying jobs.

 

I really dislike how these discussions are designed to manipulate people into getting mad, instead of looking for an actual solution. 

[bishopshodan]

3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Well I guess we could have an election any day from now until 2025. So I guess it's always good to court small business.

My last job I worked wth an ex-roughneck.

 

He was a dick. We got really close to the man dance a few times but we found neutral ground eventually. He  described his last job as the most toxic place he had been, blamed it for his agression. He said it was all coke, steriods and testosterone. 

 

Maybe now, smallers trade companies can offer more to better candidiates that wouldn't consider an environment like my co-worker lived through?

I know this is anecdotal but just thinking about if this is a good thing. 

[Ryan Strome]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

tbh I see the trans stuff as one of the worst magnets for degrading these arguments. Its a literal handful of people, its not going to move the needle one way or another on almost any topic (other than maybe a few rare sports issues?) and yet it gets so much attention and tends to derail otherwise potentially useful discussions. 

 

My daughter was very active in her schools GSA, and I did meet a few trans kids during her high school years at events we helped her host. Literally the least threatening group of people I've ever seen. The overreaction to that issue makes me shake my head. 

 

 

I mean look at your experience, and the crap you dealt with, now layer people not wanting to work with you because you were female or gay. No kidding people don't want to enter the trades.

 

So... how to make this fair.... I do agree fully that small businesses should get the bulk of tax breaks to make the changes needed. 

 

I'm not sure if you're saying you don't like me bringing up the transgender issue. My point is that nobody would know just like you wouldn't know if under my shirt I had a nazi SS stamp on my stomach. Further to that, if they wanted to come out and say they were transgender, an employer would not be able to terminate them on that grounds or they would be in violation of the law. I'm only saying it because what I'm trying to point out is the government didn't even need to mention it. It's almost like Morgan Freeman said just stop talking about it. 

 

As far as trades go, it is difficult to get women into these fields because well, as a man I think I can clearly say we don't always act the most respectfully towards women, but we need to put that onus unemployers to make sure it doesn't happen if these individuals are going to treat women in a poor way. Who was that one American general who said if you're any of these things leave! He broke down a list of things racist, homophobe, on and on. That should be the mantra and life. Treat everybody with dignity and respect! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except Trudeau.

[Ryan Strome]

5 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

My last job I worked wth an ex-roughneck.

 

He was a dick. We got really close to the man dance a few times but we found neutral ground eventually. He  described his last job as the most toxic place he had been, blamed it for his agression. He said it was all coke, steriods and testosterone. 

 

Maybe now, smallers trade companies can offer more to better candidiates that wouldn't consider an environment like my co-worker lived through?

I know this is anecdotal but just thinking about if this is a good thing. 

While it's anecdotal, it isn't that far from the reality I've witnessed and I have over 20 years in the industry. There probably is a few reasons for this and just quickly I will go over a couple. Being gone for extended periods of time with no exposure to the outside world can lead to addictions, alcohol consumption, drug consumption, etc. They're always has been a bit of a mentality of tough boys club. No gloves work through it. No hard hat. Figure it out. Feet are soaking wet. Don't be a sissy. Keep going. On and on. But I would also say people need to stand up for themselves and go to their higher ups because what I can tell you is if somebody came into my shack and told me these things were happening. I would go out and skid people within seconds.

[Bob Long]

8 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

I'm not sure if you're saying you don't like me bringing up the transgender issue. My point is that nobody would know just like you wouldn't know if under my shirt I had a nazi SS stamp on my stomach.

 

no not at all, say what you want. I'm just making the point that I think it gets conflated to something far more influential that it is in reality. Your chances of ever even working with a trans person is slim, let alone it being some kind of big issue in the trades or anywhere else. 

 

And you are correct, no one would know either of those things. 

 

8 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

 

Further to that, if they wanted to come out and say they were transgender, an employer would not be able to terminate them on that grounds or they would be in violation of the law. I'm only saying it because what I'm trying to point out is the government didn't even need to mention it. It's almost like Morgan Freeman said just stop talking about it. 

 

this is also a good point. Our Charter already covers this issue. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

 

As far as trades go, it is difficult to get women into these fields because well, as a man I think I can clearly say we don't always act the most respectfully towards women, but we need to put that onus unemployers to make sure it doesn't happen if these individuals are going to treat women in a poor way. Who was that one American general who said if you're any of these things leave! He broke down a list of things racist, homophobe, on and on. That should be the mantra and life. Treat everybody with dignity and respect! 

 

it is about respect for sure. Its not going to change overnight, there will likely be some old farts who won't be able to help themselves and say the quiet parts out loud.

 

But something has to change, not just because its the right thing to do socially, we need it for our economy to grow if we ever hope to get out of debt.

 

8 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

 

 

Except Trudeau.

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Bob Long

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

While it's anecdotal, it isn't that far from the reality I've witnessed and I have over 20 years in the industry. There probably is a few reasons for this and just quickly I will go over a couple. Being gone for extended periods of time with no exposure to the outside world can lead to addictions, alcohol consumption, drug consumption, etc. They're always has been a bit of a mentality of tough boys club. No gloves work through it. No hard hat. Figure it out. Feet are soaking wet. Don't be a sissy. Keep going. On and on. But I would also say people need to stand up for themselves and go to their higher ups because what I can tell you is if somebody came into my shack and told me these things were happening. I would go out and skid people within seconds.

 

I learned the 'safety squint' from him.

 

 

[Joe King]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

These stories always bring up the "best person" fallacy arguments. For apprenticeships, its kind of silly to claim that there could be a "best person for the job" when everyone is just learning a trade and no one is an expert in anything.

 

Right now we have a massive shortage of tradespeople, so no one is getting moved to the front of any line. All employers need more willing apprentices.

 

We also know many people are under-represented in the trades.

 

So if not a program like this, how do we get more people of all types in the trades? 

I am a trades person,almost ready to retire. I have witnessed on more than one occasion that there is sometimes one person more qualified than another.

Some jobs require more physical ability some more intellectual ability. 

So I am claiming there are times when there is the best person for a particular job. And if the government wants to help people that are not a particularly good fit in their chosen trade it should be done properly. I wonder is throwing more money at something the best solution. I agree with helping but on a person to person basis.

[Canuckle]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

its worse, I think we do have tradespeople who would be happy to work with a diverse group, but our media obsession with having discussions in a certain way pulls people into ideas like they are being discriminated against when they are the ones with the good paying jobs.

 

I really dislike how these discussions are designed to manipulate people into getting mad, instead of looking for an actual solution. 

 

This can be part of the solution... it's one many different tactics.

 

Financially incentivizing business owners to try break down their own exclusionary beliefs, their own bigotry, etc. can be a step in the right direction.

 

Most the time all it takes is actually seeing others as human beings, hearing their experiences and perspectives. All about being exposed and educated to break down those walls.

 

What's that old Mark Twain quote about travel, "...Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things can not be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime."

 

It's a good thing.

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

no not at all, say what you want. I'm just making the point that I think it gets conflated to something far more influential that it is in reality. Your chances of ever even working with a trans person is slim, let alone it being some kind of big issue in the trades or anywhere else. 

 

And you are correct, no one would know either of those things. 

 

 

this is also a good point. Our Charter already covers his issue. 

 

 

 

it is about respect for sure. Its not going to change overnight, there will likely be some old farts who won't be able to help themselves and say the quiet parts out loud.

 

But something has to change, not just because its the right thing to do socially, we need it for our economy to grow if we ever hope to get out of debt.

 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Joe King said:

I am a trades person,almost ready to retire. I have witnessed on more than one occasion that there is sometimes one person more qualified than another.

Some jobs require more physical ability some more intellectual ability. 

So I am claiming there are times when there is the best person for a particular job. And if the government wants to help people that are not a particularly good fit in their chosen trade it should be done properly. I wonder is throwing more money at something the best solution. I agree with helping but on a person to person basis.

So I quoted both because I think it is important what Bob is saying and maybe many of us are overlooking that myself included. We legitimately have houses that cannot be built because we don't have carpenters and framers to do it. Our population is growing at a faster rate than it ever has before. My personal preference would be to slow it down a little bit, but that is not the preference of both main political parties in this country. So if we want to go this route of getting more people in so they make more money in taxes, we need places for people to live because at the rate we're going now, my kids will be paying 5 million for an apartment unfortunately they'll have to ask somebody else because Dad will have to give the big no to that one lol.