(Trade) Canucks trade Poolman

[JayDangles]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

https://www.puckpedia.com/team/vancouver-canucks

 

https://capwages.com/teams/vancouver_canucks

 

It will be a while before it gets a good cap friendly. 

Thanks Ghost. I'm not sure what I'm missing. Canucks have just shy of $500k under the cap, but I've seen people here saying they could acrue as much as $4m but Xmas.  That doesn't add up. I'm still missing something 

[DeNiro]

36 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Thanks Ghost. I'm not sure what I'm missing. Canucks have just shy of $500k under the cap, but I've seen people here saying they could acrue as much as $4m but Xmas.  That doesn't add up. I'm still missing something 

We have Joshua and Demko on IR.

 

Meaning 2 players will have to go down when they’re activated. So that would be another 1.8 mil or so there.

[JayDangles]

6 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

We have Joshua and Demko on IR.

 

Meaning 2 players will have to go down when they’re activated. So that would be another 1.8 mil or so there.

OK that makes sense. I was missing that piece.

Thanks!

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

1 hour ago, JayDangles said:

Thanks Ghost. I'm not sure what I'm missing. Canucks have just shy of $500k under the cap, but I've seen people here saying they could acrue as much as $4m but Xmas.  That doesn't add up. I'm still missing something 

Think of it this way, if a team is not at max cap 88 million then they are not spending everything they are allowed. If a team spend 87 million instead of 88 on the first day they have 1 million in cap space. Everyday they don't spend that extra million dollars that 1 million grows or accrues a greater value. There is roughly 190 days in the season and the trade deadline is roughly 2/3 the season or about 130 days into the season. 1/190= .005*130=.68% so 1 million after the first day becomes 1.050 million the second day and by the trade deadline about 1.68 million. 

 

So right now the Canucks have just under .500k But when Demko and Joshua come back. They will have to move 2 players to the AHL Raty .840 million and Silovs .850 million. I'm using them because they are both waiver exempt. That would give the Canucks roughly .840+.850+.500= 2.19 million in cap space plus what ever they have accrue at the time these players have come back. If the team stays health and maintains this 2.19 million up to the deadline they would start to accrue at a greater value. 

 

Disclaimer, all numbers are rough not exact by any means.

Edited October 8 by Tocchet.A.Hockey.God

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

On 10/6/2024 at 7:00 PM, Provost said:

It is how close to the cap we can get without putting guys on LTIR that matters at this point.  You only get LTIR relief for as much as replacing that salary would put you over the cap.  Like if we were $2 million under and put Demko on LTIR you only get $3 million in cap overage.  That number is set and locked in when you put someone on LTIR.

 

We could have a 23 man roster and be right at the cap; then put our injured players on LTIR to maximize the relief; then run with a 21-22 man roster which would allow us to accrue cap space.

 

It doesn’t matter much if they think Demko won’t be out long term… but if this keeps lingering they want to absolutely maximize his LTIR to have that money available later in the season to fill holes.

I think you have this very wrong, You can't accrue cap space while in LTIR. 

 

If the Canucks where to Max their cap with Demko on the team then put Demko on LTIR they would be able to replace his Cap # with another player or multiple player up to his Cap # of 5 million. So With Demko on the team a perfect cap would be 88 million then place him on  LTIR and they could sign a 5 million dollar guy if Demko where out all season. Or do paper transitions to get to close to perfect cap and then send lower paid players down to bring up higher paid players which we see a lot in the league. But at no time could they surpass the replacement value of Demkos cap of 5 million.

 

This is why they wanted to trade Poolman. His cap # is 2.5 million the Canucks would have been stuck at 2.5 million all year after Demko and Joshua came back if they where still in LTIR with Poolman. See my post above explaining Accruing cap to another post. By the time Demko and Joshua returned and if possible could have taken Poolman off of LTIR as well their would have not been enough time to accrue more Cap space if they found away to operate out side of LTIR

Edited October 8 by Tocchet.A.Hockey.God

[Junkyard Dog]

Branstrom is a nice little get. Just turned 25 and has over 200 NHL games. 
 

Starting in the AHL might be good for him to get used to the systems. He is likely gonna be the #1 call up. 
 

He’s been in Ottawa almost his entire NA pro career and didn’t participate in our training camp. Will be an adjustment period for him. 

[JayDangles]

1 hour ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

Think of it this way, if a team is not at max cap 88 million then they are not spending everything they are allowed. If a team spend 87 million instead of 88 on the first day they have 1 million in cap space. Everyday they don't spend that extra million dollars that 1 million grows or accrues a greater value. There is roughly 190 days in the season and the trade deadline is roughly 2/3 the season or about 130 days into the season. 1/190= .005*130=.68% so 1 million after the first day becomes 1.050 million the second day and by the trade deadline about 1.68 million. 

 

So right now the Canucks have just under .500k But when Demko and Joshua come back. They will have to move 2 players to the AHL Raty .840 million and Silovs .850 million. I'm using them because they are both waiver exempt. That would give the Canucks roughly .840+.850+.500= 2.19 million in cap space plus what ever they have accrue at the time these players have come back. If the team stays health and maintains this 2.19 million up to the deadline they would start to accrue at a greater value. 

 

Disclaimer, all numbers are rough not exact by any means.

Very well explained. Thank you

 

Makes total sense

[Johnny]

2 hours ago, JayDangles said:

OK that makes sense. I was missing that piece.

Thanks!

It can be a little tricky with how its talked about.

 

They arent building more cap space as the season goes on

 

But the cap hits of players decrease as the season goes on

 

At the halfway point a 5 million aav would only to 2.5 million of space if traded

 

So as the season goes on the value of cap space raises

[Odd.]

3 hours ago, DeNiro said:

We have Joshua and Demko on IR.

 

Meaning 2 players will have to go down when they’re activated. So that would be another 1.8 mil or so there.

They can also paper down Raty on off days to accrue more possible cap considering he is waiver exempt. 

[Provost]

2 hours ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

I think you have this very wrong, You can't accrue cap space while in LTIR. 

 

If the Canucks where to Max their cap with Demko on the team then put Demko on LTIR they would be able to replace his Cap # with another player or multiple player up to his Cap # of 5 million. So With Demko on the team a perfect cap would be 88 million then place him on  LTIR and they could sign a 5 million dollar guy if Demko where out all season. Or do paper transitions to get to close to perfect cap and then send lower paid players down to bring up higher paid players which we see a lot in the league. But at no time could they surpass the replacement value of Demkos cap of 5 million.

 

This is why they wanted to trade Poolman. His cap # is 2.5 million the Canucks would have been stuck at 2.5 million all year after Demko and Joshua came back if they where still in LTIR with Poolman. See my post above explaining Accruing cap to another post. By the time Demko and Joshua returned and if possible could have taken Poolman off of LTIR as well their would have not been enough time to accrue more Cap space if they found away to operate out side of LTIR

Again, you wouldn’t be using the LTIR overage pool while accruing cap space.  No one is saying that.

You would have simply placed the player on LTIR for the purpose of locking in the LTIR pool value for them.  Putting a player on LTIR and being over the cap using the LTIR overage pool isn’t the same thing.

 

The amount you are allowed to exceed the cap is fixed the day you put that player on LTIR and becomes your potential allowed overage.  You don’t need to use it, and often wouldn’t unless you know for sure that player isn’t returning for the entire season.  Not using it doesn’t mean you lose that LTIR pool.

 

“A Club may elect to replace a Player who is unfit to play under this Bona- Fide Long-Term Injury Exception at any point during the period that he is unfit to play”

 

So, if you are right at the cap ceiling of $88 million and put Demko on LTIR and that means you are allowed to exceed the cap by his entire cap hit and be able to spend up to $93 million.  That extra $5 million in LTIR pool remains as long as the player is injured whether you use it or not.  You don’t lose it and it doesn’t accrue into a larger amount as the season goes like normal unused cap space.  It is always $5 million.

 

If you THEN go under the cap after placing Demko on LTIR (by running a smaller than 23 man roster or trading away a $2 million dollar player), and are only spending $86 million including Demko’s salary… you aren’t into the allowed LTIR overage pool so can accrue cap space (even if Demko’s status is on LTIR).  You don’t lose the ability to go over the cap when/if you find out Demko can’t return for the season and you decide you need to replace him… that cushion remains until he returns.

 

So in this situation if Demko’s injury just keeps lingering and you have been running $2 million under the cap including his salary by halfway through the season you could afford a $4 million player from the accrual, but still also be able to use that available unused LTIR pool from Demko and sign another $5 million dollar player to replace him.

 

At no time are you ever exceeding the $5 million in LTIR pool.

 

If Demko comes back in a month it doesn’t matter much.  If his injury lingers, or he tries to come back on a conditioning stint and realizes he can’t return for the regular season … then it matters very much.  Putting him on LTIR at a point where we are as close to the cap as possible is a necessity.

Edited October 8 by Provost

[BigTramFan]

6 hours ago, Provost said:

re-read the post.  It isn’t saying we would be in LTIR.

 

It was locking in the amount of LTIR relief we could get by putting Demko on it.  It we were right at the cap and put Demko on LTIR we get the ability to go over the cap by his whole salary and that is locked in until he gets back.  You don’t need to use it until you want to, but you preserve the ability at that amount.

 

We do that and then drop a player or two off the roster and would then be under the cap by a million or two and can accrue cap

You say we wouldn't be in LTIR, but then you say we put Demko on LTI.

 

You cannot accrue salary cap space when you have a player on LTI.

 

You can exceed the cap by the LTIR pool amount calculated by Demko's cap hit less the space at the time he is placed on LTI. Example if done today, then our LTIR pool would be $5m - $0.5m = $4.5m. This now sets a new cap limit for VAN of $88 + 4.5m = $92.5m (but Demko's cap hit is still counted). 

 

This means we would be allowed to add another $5m of cap, but we would not be accruing any cap space even if we don't add any new contracts. Doesn't matter if you waive some guys and put yourself well below the $88m or $92.5m cap limit, you aren't allowed to accrue that cap space while a player is on LTI.

 

There is no reason that we can't accrue cap space now (with Demko on IR) and then at a later date put Demko onto LTIR and utilise both the cap space we accrued plus the LTIR pool, but given how good Demko is, you would have to assume Demko would be missing the whole regular season to replace his cap hit. If there is a chance he's coming back in the regular season, then you keep that cap space for him.

[Provost]

17 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

You say we wouldn't be in LTIR, but then you say we put Demko on LTI.

 

You cannot accrue salary cap space when you have a player on LTI.

 

That doesn’t seem to be true according to the CBA and examples in it… you are mixing up two different things.

 

You can’t accrue cap space while using the LTIR overage pool and are exceeding the normal upper limit.  That is because putting a playing on LTIR is not actually removing their cap hit.  Their cap hit always counts towards the upper limit.  It just gives a pool that you are allowed to exceed that upper limit by.

 

You can have a player with a Long Term Injured Reserve status and still not be above the upper cap limit and using your LTIR pool overage… so can still accrue cap space from any payroll room you have under the league upper limit.

 

I think when folks shorten the phrasing they use is what makes it confusing.  “in LTIR” when folks say it means when you are exceeding the normal cap by using some/all of your LTIR pool.  It doesn’t mean just having a player who has a status as being on long term injured reserve.  I think it also confuses people when they think of an LTIR player’s cap hit not counting on the books… it always does.  The overage pool is just an amount you are allowed to exceed the cap.

 

All the LTIR language is just about by what amounts you are allowed to exceed the cap, and nothing about payroll room or how you accrue it.

 

“Creation of Payroll Room. Nothing in this Agreement shall prohibit a Club from creating Payroll Room by Assignment, Waiver, Buy-Out, or as otherwise permitted under this Agreement”

 

Payroll room is the difference between your average daily cap hits and the normal league upper cap limit (not including any LTIR overage a specific team might have).

 

You can create payroll room even if you have a player on LTIR status… as long as the total of your cap hits (including the player on LTIR) aren’t exceeding the league upper limit.  If you are at $88 million and put Demko on LTIR, you can go up to $93 million.  If you THEN assign/waive/trade players which drop you below $88 million (remember Demko’s cap hit always counts anyways regardless of LTIR status) and dropping those players gives you payroll room, you accrue cap space for every day you are under than upper limit and have payroll room.  Demko’s status has nothing to do with it as long as your total cap hits (including his) are under the upper limit.

 

The only consideration when putting a player on LTIR either today or retroactively, is how close to the league upper limit you are and therefore how much LTIR pool overage you can create.  If a team is never going to exceed the cap it doesn’t matter.  If you think you may have to exceed the cap, you manage your roster in a way to get as close to the cap as possible on the day you are putting that player on LTIR.

[BigTramFan]

48 minutes ago, Provost said:

That doesn’t seem to be true according to the CBA and examples in it… you are mixing up two different things.

 

You can’t accrue cap space while using the LTIR overage pool and are exceeding the normal upper limit.  That is because putting a playing on LTIR is not actually removing their cap hit.  Their cap hit always counts towards the upper limit.  It just gives a pool that you are allowed to exceed that upper limit by.

 

You can have a player with a Long Term Injured Reserve status and still not be above the upper cap limit and using your LTIR pool overage… so can still accrue cap space from any payroll room you have under the league upper limit.

 

I think when folks shorten the phrasing they use is what makes it confusing.  “in LTIR” when folks say it means when you are exceeding the normal cap by using some/all of your LTIR pool.  It doesn’t mean just having a player who has a status as being on long term injured reserve.  I think it also confuses people when they think of an LTIR player’s cap hit not counting on the books… it always does.  The overage pool is just an amount you are allowed to exceed the cap.

 

All the LTIR language is just about by what amounts you are allowed to exceed the cap, and nothing about payroll room or how you accrue it.

 

“Creation of Payroll Room. Nothing in this Agreement shall prohibit a Club from creating Payroll Room by Assignment, Waiver, Buy-Out, or as otherwise permitted under this Agreement”

 

Payroll room is the difference between your average daily cap hits and the normal league upper cap limit (not including any LTIR overage a specific team might have).

 

You can create payroll room even if you have a player on LTIR status… as long as the total of your cap hits (including the player on LTIR) aren’t exceeding the league upper limit.  If you are at $88 million and put Demko on LTIR, you can go up to $93 million.  If you THEN assign/waive/trade players which drop you below $88 million (remember Demko’s cap hit always counts anyways regardless of LTIR status) and dropping those players gives you payroll room, you accrue cap space for every day you are under than upper limit and have payroll room.  Demko’s status has nothing to do with it as long as your total cap hits (including his) are under the upper limit.

 

The only consideration when putting a player on LTIR either today or retroactively, is how close to the league upper limit you are and therefore how much LTIR pool overage you can create.  If a team is never going to exceed the cap it doesn’t matter.  If you think you may have to exceed the cap, you manage your roster in a way to get as close to the cap as possible on the day you are putting that player on LTIR.

Show me an example of a team that has a player on LTI and is accruing cap space, and I will believe it.

 

If it worked the way you think it does, then the Canucks would place Demko on LTI right now, but they won't do that.

 

Instead they will accrue cap space and delay any decision on placing Demko on LTI until they fully understand his situation. If he is not back for the regular season then at that stage they can ensure their roster is close to $88m, place him on LTI and utilise the accrued cap space they earnt, plus his LTIR to bolster the roster.

[Provost]

5 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Show me an example of a team that has a player on LTI and is accruing cap space, and I will believe it.

 

If it worked the way you think it does, then the Canucks would place Demko on LTI right now, but they won't do that.

 

Instead they will accrue cap space and delay any decision on placing Demko on LTI until they fully understand his situation. If he is not back for the regular season then at that stage they can ensure their roster is close to $88m, place him on LTI and utilise the accrued cap space they earnt, plus his LTIR to bolster the roster.

They can do it retroactively if they need to.  That doesn’t erase any cap they have accrued in the meantime.

 

Doing cap shenanigans can be a lot easier by working an opening day roster than doing it in season.  It isn’t as easy as adding players to hit $88 million.

 

Show any rule or clause in the CBA that says you can’t accrue cap space while having a player on LTIR.

[DrJockitch]

6 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Show me an example of a team that has a player on LTI and is accruing cap space, and I will believe it.

 

If it worked the way you think it does, then the Canucks would place Demko on LTI right now, but they won't do that.

 

Instead they will accrue cap space and delay any decision on placing Demko on LTI until they fully understand his situation. If he is not back for the regular season then at that stage they can ensure their roster is close to $88m, place him on LTI and utilise the accrued cap space they earnt, plus his LTIR to bolster the roster.

Any team with a player on LTIR that is not over the cap with them and their replacements is accruing cap space. 
If Columbus who is way under the cap puts a player on LTIR then they will still be accruing cap. 
‘You just don’t here about LTIR on non cap teams because it doesn’t really matter and most teams are close to the cap. 

[RU SERIOUS]

Despite clearing a couple of bucks off cap room (which is a positive), I'm pretty sure that Tock-it is not doing cartwheels over the acquisition of a tiny fragile Swedish defenseman - with concussion issues!  Not the type of player he's trying to build our D-core with but in a time of desperation/or need he would certainly be better than what we're presently stuck with with in our empty "defensive" cupboard down on the farm team after a decade of trading away draft picks (which continues to this day).  

 

 

 

Edited October 8 by RU SERIOUS

[Gawdzukes]

58 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Despite clearing a couple of bucks off cap room (which is a positive), I'm pretty sure that Tock-it is not doing cartwheels over the acquisition of a tiny fragile Swedish defenseman - with concussion issues!  Not the type of player he's trying to build our D-core with but in a time of desperation/or need he would certainly be better than what we're presently stuck with with in our empty "defensive" cupboard down on the farm team after a decade of trading away draft picks (which continues to this day).  

 

 

 

 

He's not even on the team. Pay attention boy!

[RU SERIOUS]

16 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

He's not even on the team. Pay attention boy!

I know that and why I mentioned "the farm team".    Pay attention boy!

Edited October 8 by RU SERIOUS

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Show me an example of a team that has a player on LTI and is accruing cap space, and I will believe it.

 

Offtopic:   Vegas just puts a "hurt" guy on LITR where they miraculously recover in the postseason.  Bettman..."I see nothing wrong here"

 

Canucks take advantage of a loophole in the CBA *AND* still get the contract approved by the league.  Then later Bettman says "Eff You Canucks..  suck on this dead cap space penalty". New Jersey does an even more cap circumvention contract & get penalized heavily.  But later when nobody is looking tells Jersey "Don't worry, we'll lessen the penalty.

 

Calgary is allowed to ice a less than required number of players because they ran out of cap space because....no reason...

 

Edited October 8 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Gawdzukes]

1 minute ago, RU SERIOUS said:

I know that!

 

I'm pretty sure RT couldn't possibly care less about an AHL player acquired as part of a cap dump.

 

Wolanin is far better as is Brisebois if healthy. Hell, I'm sure Kudryavtsev is better too. We also have Friedman and Juulsen who are NHL players on the roster just waiting for an opportunity to get in.

[PeteyBOI]

LTIR Talk 

[Dr. Crossbar]

It's interesting what people really fixate on ... getting Brannstrom is what it is. He's more of a reclamation that needs work. Freeing ourselves of the Poolman contract was key.

 

We're at a point now where it's getting harder and harder for young guys to crack the lineup. That means our roster is getting better each year. Someone like Brannstrom is going to have a tough time waltzing into our lineup on a former first round pedigree when guys like Wolanin and others are raising their games under this system, becoming more reliable. 

 

The upside for Brannstrom is that he has a really good opportunity to find his game given how dialed in this organization has become and the caliber of staff we have that can help him.

[RU SERIOUS]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

I'm pretty sure RT couldn't possibly care less about an AHL player acquired as part of a cap dump.

 

Wolanin is far better as is Brisebois if healthy. Hell, I'm sure Kudryavtsev is better too. We also have Friedman and Juulsen who are NHL players on the roster just waiting for an opportunity to get in.

"Brannstrom has more than twice as much NHL experience as the four other left-shot defencemen the Canucks have in the AHL put together.

As an undersized defenseman with limitations in his defensive game, Brannstrom certainly has flaws, but he's also a fantastic skater and decent puck-mover who can effectively transition the puck up ice. That's something the Canucks' blue line lacks beyond the top pairing of Quinn Hughes and Filip Hronek".  So I would expect he'll be the first call-up if the need for a LHD arises despite RT hating small D's.

 

 

Edited October 8 by RU SERIOUS

[bh90]

17 hours ago, JayDangles said:

Thanks Ghost. I'm not sure what I'm missing. Canucks have just shy of $500k under the cap, but I've seen people here saying they could acrue as much as $4m but Xmas.  That doesn't add up. I'm still missing something 

Cap accrues daily so at current structure we would have 1.8 mil at deadline. If Joshua and Demko came back tomorrow than we can accrue 7.5 mil by deadline or close to 4 mil by Christmas.

 

However, we could also accrue nothing if we get some more early season injuries and need to use LTIR.

 

All we know is that for the first time in a long time the Canucks look to have some flexibility and it's likely we'll accrue some cap. How much though is TBD.

[bh90]

13 hours ago, Odd. said:

They can also paper down Raty on off days to accrue more possible cap considering he is waiver exempt. 

Silovs too. I thought about this.

Could make a huge difference to the cap

 

But, than you're paying Raty and Silovs AHL money. I can't see them being to happy with us If we're playing cap games with their pay cheque