[PGT] Vancouver Canucks @ Tampa Bay Lightning Oct 15

[Rekker]

Just now, JayDangles said:

You used 2 words which are very general. 

"moment". I don't believe EP is just struggling at the moment. He has been struggling for 10 months

"improve" This is relative to what? his current 60pt pace? Yes I think he will improve beyond his current play. But do I think he will improve back to being a 100pt play driver? No, not at all.

I'm not saying this from some high and mighty standpoint though. I would be happy to eat crow and see him prove me wrong. I just dont see any signs this will be the case.

He has been struggling since last All Star break and I also see no signs of his previous greatness. He is where he is, previous high point seasons, Calder, because of skill and drive, that's fact. Just is. He's been crap for awhile, that's fact. I suspect this will get worse before better while also involving some benching and pressbox time. Something is up and only he knows what it is. I go back to his skills and drive that will eventually get him going. To say he will never regain form is silly.

[RWJC]

3 minutes ago, filthy animal said:

 

Yup, 11.6 million there shouldn't BE ANY EXCUSES. Ive heard it all, blah blah "hes playing with hoglander", people are complaning now about 25 goal scoring wingers? Even Mikeyev, this guy has scored a bit in this league, this isn't ECHL calibre talent,

 

I don't think it’s the coaching, scheme or the personnel. I just don't think EP40 is putting the effort, or it’s all mental. He's hesitating out there. Miller, Hogs, Boeser, Hughes, Garland and a few others all had career years here, but beyond the stats, they simply just played better, stats sheet or not. Its the player, not the environment

It’s ok for fans to give him a pass and it should also be reminded that he hasn’t completely bottomed out and become a shell of what he was. He’s still an elite level talent and contributes a ton to this team. 

 

That said, he is just simply struggling to achieve a level of expectation that comes with his contract extension. It likely will eventually be realized, but in the interim it’s halting because he’s so heavily relied on to be someone to lead this team every shift. He hasnt consistently done that, nor has he been clutch like is also required of him. I think it’s 1 goal in 23 regular season games now? Maybe more games? That’s not good enough for what should be your #1C. To an extent his struggles might also affect his linemates (not just the other way around). I will say this though, he needs a linemate that plays with edge. He needs to some with talent who will bang and crash to retrieve pucks and create space, and 3rd member of that line HAS to have some playmaking skill to benefit EP as well.

Think West Coast Express 2.0. 
Do we have the capacity or capability with this roster to achieve that? Perhaps. Let’s see what Joshua can do when he returns, but in terms of rotating players in and off EP’s lines, that’s not going to help or get him going. It’s just a constant chemistry audition. 
 

I applaud RT for all that he’s brought to this club, but his desire to have a wholesale defensively responsible F group is an ideal that isn’t easily achieved. To that end, mgmt should have held steady and kept Kuz and instead found a 3rd linemate through trade to support that line. I think an inherent mistake was made in forecasting what EP could do when you strip him (again) of chemistry-driven linemates.

 

 

 

[tas]

3 minutes ago, RWJC said:

it should also be reminded that he hasn’t completely bottomed out and become a shell of what he was. He’s still an elite level talent and contributes a ton to this team. 

if his play since the end of January isn't bottoming out, I'd hate to see what is. 

 

hard to be less effective than he's been in that timeframe. 

[Toni Zamboni]

[Goose]

7 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Absolutely agree. The only problem with that logic though is players like Matthews, McDavid, Pastrnak, etc etc are often double teamed and still manage to make something out of the situation. That’s why they are paid what they are because they unequivocally separate themselves from their competition and have the immediate ability to still create impact. EP used to do that. If he can’t do that now, what is it a symptom of? I’m talking about his individual play, irrespective of linemates or coaching assignments. He is just not as explosive or dynamic. Is that due to stature, being more easily readable, has his game stagnated…what is the root cause of what appears to be him losing a little lustre?

That superstar, game breaker version of EP is becoming a rarity over the past two seasons and that is a fair observation that warrants some concern, no?

 

This was the issue I was getting at.  It’s a hard league.  Petey hasnt lost his hockey skill or IQ-his offence is just getting snuffed out (for a variety of reasons).  Trying to get him to be more impactful (when those game breaking moments arnt happening) is what the coaching staff is trying to squeeze out of him.

 

For all the flak JT got about wearing his heart on his sleeve, maybe Petey needs to get pissed off.  Bring back the “death stare” in his game so to speak.  Might dial him in.

[The Duke]

We had stretches like this last year and that’s when Demko or Garland/Joshua would step up and power us through.  
 

Missing 2 of those guys isn’t helping things.  
 

I’m also skeptical about sweeping conclusions about the team since the allstar break.  We still beat a plucky Preds team and took the Coil to 7 - without Demko.  And Silovs was good for a rookie but far from carrying the team. 
 

Feels like we’ve been having this discussion about Petey for years.  He gets into these little funks and everyone acts like he’ll never recover… then he pops off again.  All the while he usually drives pretty elite numbers. 
 

In any case, the PP needs serious work and Tocchet’s new uptempo approach needs a lot of fine tuning.  I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes back to his staples strategically while trying to get an offensive boost with a personnel move for a guy like Branstrom. 

[filthy animal]

4 minutes ago, RWJC said:

It’s ok for fans to give him a pass and it should also be reminded that he hasn’t completely bottomed out and become a shell of what he was. He’s still an elite level talent and contributes a ton to this team. 

 

That said, he is just simply struggling to achieve a level of expectation that comes with his contract extension. It likely will eventually be realized, but in the interim it’s halting because he’s so heavily relied on to be someone to lead this team every shift. He hasnt consistently done that, nor has he been clutch like is also required of him. I think it’s 1 goal in 23 regular season games now? Maybe more games? That’s not good enough for what should be your #1C. To an extent his struggles might also affect his linemates (not just the other way around). I will say this though, he needs a linemate that plays with edge. He needs to some with talent who will bang and crash to retrieve pucks and create space, and 3rd member of that line HAS to have some playmaking skill to benefit EP as well.

Think West Coast Express 2.0. 
Do we have the capacity or capability with this roster to achieve that? Perhaps. Let’s see what Joshua can do when he returns, but in terms of rotating players in and off EP’s lines, that’s not going to help or get him going. It’s just a constant chemistry audition. 
 

I applaud RT for all that he’s brought to this club, but his desire to have a wholesale defensively responsible F group is an ideal that isn’t easily achieved. To that end, mgmt should have held steady and kept Kuz and instead found a 3rd linemate through trade to support that line. I think an inherent mistake was made in forecasting what EP could do when you strip him (again) of chemistry-driven linemates.

 

 

 

 

There lies the problem, how long can we go for this chemistry audition. Tochett's job is to win games, not babysit Petey. This has been going on for 9-10 months already.

 

As for Kuz, yeah would've been nice if he was here, but again, name of the game is to win games. There is no chance we get to the game 7 of the 2nd round without Lindholm. Stats aside, Lindholm showed his worth in the post season

[J-23]

Suter - Miller - Boeser

Debrusk - Pettersson - Hoglander

Heinen - Blueger - Garland

Giuseppe - Raty/Aman - Sherwood

 

Get back to what worked last season in my opinion.

Suter back with Miller and Boeser.

Blueger back with Garland and have Heinen replace Joshua while he's injured. 

Bring back Giuseppe he was a good 4th liner and played well with Sherwood in the preseason. 

Debrusk - Pettersson - Hoglander. Let this line run for a few games at least. 

Edited Wednesday at 09:15 PM by J-23

[nzan]

12 minutes ago, Rekker said:

He has been struggling since last All Star break and I also see no signs of his previous greatness. He is where he is, previous high point seasons, Calder, because of skill and drive, that's fact. Just is. He's been crap for awhile, that's fact. I suspect this will get worse before better while also involving some benching and pressbox time. Something is up and only he knows what it is. I go back to his skills and drive that will eventually get him going. To say he will never regain form is silly.

 

It's also interesting to note that the 100 point season was the one directly after everyone was saying he should go back to the AHL.

He's struggled like this before, and then regained his form.

I also think it could be a long, dark road before that happens - but it will happen

[filthy animal]

Just now, The Duke said:

We had stretches like this last year and that’s when Demko or Garland/Joshua would step up and power us through.  
 

Missing 2 of those guys isn’t helping things.  
 

I’m also skeptical about sweeping conclusions about the team since the allstar break.  We still beat a plucky Preds team and took the Coil to 7 - without Demko.  And Silovs was good for a rookie but far from carrying the team. 
 

Feels like we’ve been having this discussion about Petey for years.  He gets into these little funks and everyone acts like he’ll never recover… then he pops off again.  All the while he usually drives pretty elite numbers. 
 

In any case, the PP needs serious work and Tocchet’s new uptempo approach needs a lot of fine tuning.  I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes back to his staples strategically while trying to get an offensive boost with a personnel move for a guy like Branstrom. 

 

This funk is different though. He's barely showing up in the stat sheet and his on ice play has been terrible. We've seen EP40 stuggle years back, and he still looked dominant in games. Theres no pop, or drive in his game whatsoever. No amount of scheming or linemates can overcome that

[RWJC]

11 minutes ago, tas said:

if his play since the end of January isn't bottoming out, I'd hate to see what is. 

 

hard to be less effective than he's been in that timeframe. 

Doesnt diminish that he’s still a PPG player, is still an offensive threat and commands attention from the opposition, and that he’s actually become very defensively responsible. 
 

You’re witnessing a player who’s stagnated. That’s it. If you think he’s been ineffective then perhaps youre simply viewing his production through a fan-entitled lens and not accurate to the ways in which he’s trying to compensate. No offense meant, we each see some flaw right now in his game, but he just lacks the extra gear at the moment that defines him as a superstar. 

Edited Wednesday at 09:19 PM by RWJC

[spook007]

Just now, J-23 said:

Suter - Miller - Boeser

Debrusk - Pettersson - Hoglander

Heinen - Blueger - Garland

Giuseppe - Raty - Sherwood

 

Get back to what worked last season in my opinion.

Suter back with Miller and Boeser.

Blueger back with Garland and have Heinen replace Joshua while he's injured. 

Bring back Giuseppe he was a good 4th liner and played well with Sherwood in the preseason. 

Debrusk - Pettersson - Hoglander. Let this line run for a few games at least. 

Spot on amigo....

 

Why try to reinvent the wheel? Stick to the tried and trusted...

[The Duke]

 

Quads looks like he’s called that because he’s 16 years old but I agree with this.

[Blue]

1 hour ago, JayDangles said:

That is so wrong it's laughable! 

Canucks haven't come close to deserving to win any of the 3 games so far! Lol

Says who ? You ? Ha ! Your blather isn't an algorithmic metric. The win-o-meter is. Pipe tf down.

 

Pretty funny when someone sees actual data and laughs and thinks his biased opinion is right and the data is wrong. Woof 

Edited Wednesday at 09:19 PM by Blue

[RWJC]

5 minutes ago, filthy animal said:

 

There lies the problem, how long can we go for this chemistry audition. Tochett's job is to win games, not babysit Petey. This has been going on for 9-10 months already.

 

As for Kuz, yeah would've been nice if he was here, but again, name of the game is to win games. There is no chance we get to the game 7 of the 2nd round without Lindholm. Stats aside, Lindholm showed his worth in the post season

and what does that say…that the teams imports from another hockey culture were the heavy drivers for our club during the playoffs. 
 

as a whole this club is soft. 
despite size additions, we play small. 
need more edge to this club across the board. That instills confidence 

Edited Wednesday at 09:19 PM by RWJC

[Rekker]

1 minute ago, nzan said:

 

It's also interesting to note that the 100 point season was the one directly after everyone was saying he should go back to the AHL.

He's struggled like this before, and then regained his form.

I also think it could be a long, dark road before that happens - but it will happen

I believe EP's best success has come along side JT. Same with Brock. JT is just that good, he really is. I would reunite the lotto line and play the crap out of them next game. 

[JayDangles]

20 minutes ago, Rekker said:

He has been struggling since last All Star break and I also see no signs of his previous greatness. He is where he is, previous high point seasons, Calder, because of skill and drive, that's fact. Just is. He's been crap for awhile, that's fact. I suspect this will get worse before better while also involving some benching and pressbox time. Something is up and only he knows what it is. I go back to his skills and drive that will eventually get him going. To say he will never regain form is silly.

I know this sounds a little weird, but I think something went down at the All Star Break in and around there. I remember watching him during the skills comp and he looked absolutely disengaged, it was the first time I've truly seen him look that way.

It was also the same time that the media articles went public about him and JT not seeing eye to eye. JT spoke to the two of them not being close but "working through it"

Everyone seems to be latched to this mysterious injuries theory. I personally believe there is some serious disconnect between Pettersson and Miller and Pettersson just isnt able to play past that.

[spook007]

1 minute ago, RWJC said:

and what does that say…that the teams imports from another hockey culture where the drivers for our club during the playoffs. 
 

as a whole this club is soft. 
despite size additions, we play small. 
need more edge to this club across the board. That instills confidence 

Yep... hence the loss of Joshua is felt so hard.

[JayDangles]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

Says who ? You ? Ha ! Your blather isn't an algorithmic metric. The win-o-meter is. Pipe tf down.

 

Pretty funny when someone sees actual data and laughs and thinks his biased opinion is right and the data is wrong. Woof 

Oh, instagram data that clearly caters to a fan base? Its a picture, its not even data.

 

You don't seriously think Canucks outplayed Calgary do you? 

By what metric did we outplay them? 

They outchanced us, outshot us, outscored us, out hit us, had more possession time in the ozone... so how did we out play them again?

[The Duke]

4 minutes ago, filthy animal said:

 

This funk is different though. He's barely showing up in the stat sheet and his on ice play has been terrible. We've seen EP40 stuggle years back, and he still looked dominant in games. Theres no pop, or drive in his game whatsoever. No amount of scheming or linemates can overcome that

What’s the conclusion here?  That he’s done?  You don’t think that’s just a little over dramatic?

 

The context is that the whole team has looked bad for large stretches and one of his wingers, Sprong, has already been banished. If the team gets rolling and Petey is still stinking up the joint I’ll be a lot more worried.  He’s a part of it, but he’s also surrounded by it.

[J-23]

5 minutes ago, The Duke said:

 

 

 

At the end of the day the Pacific is not a strong division, especially when compared to other divisions.

 

So it's not the end of the world if we have a slow start to the season but it's not fun or ideal. 

[-dlc-]

35 minutes ago, PeteyBOI said:

im not... who says i was?

20% is the highest contract available according to the cba....

back  when mcdavid signed his contract that was no where near 20% he took a big discount... almost anyone would tell you that

in 2018/2019 cp was 79.5 million with mcdavid... 20% would be 15.9 million... instead he signed for 15.7% or 12.5M he left money on the table...

in 2024/2025 was 88 million Petterson signed for 13.18% of the cap

in 2023/2024 Mackinnons Contract was worth 15.09% of the cap

Mcdavid and mackinnon both play 22+minutes a night

EP ranks at 32nd at 19:30 minutes

overall per minute we are paying more for EP40 than Mackinnon and McDavid...

yay math that everyone loves?

 

 

OK so we're paying players by the minute?

 

Guess I missed that memo.

 

You can slant things all sorts of different ways and you've found one and I found another. Guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I agree with @J-23 that Petey needs to get angry and stop feeling sorry for himself.  Death stare Petey was as close to unstoppable as it gets and you can see that he seems to be overthinking it.  He barely shoots his 1T on the PP where he just needs to let'r rip instead of looking for the perfect play.  Let Hughes and JT make the plays and just shoot the puck when it comes to you, Petey.

 

As for the defense, I think it's a more pressing concern and we need a true #3 defenseman to carry his own pairing, LHD or RHD doesn't matter.  It was pretty clear before the season started that the bottom 4 pairs need someone who can skate and make plays and I don't think Branstrom is the answer though he could look great in a reduced role with a defense firt partner.

 

I'm willing to be patient and see where this team is at when American thanksgiving comes around.

[AnthonyG]

45 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

He made a good point about needing to watch the game instead of looking at statistics to try and prove a point.

 

The reality is the eye test, game in and game out is proving that EP is EP's problem. Not his ice time, or Ozone starts, or linemates. Pettersson is Petterssons problem

I’ve watched the games. And I’ve seen most of Petterssons shifts start in the dzone. Also noticed him shooting more. He’s had several opportunities in the high slot just under the top of the circle and his shots have been blocked or deflected high. He had a nice dangle through a couple players the the last couple games.

Here’s the one issue with Petey that I feel is indeed holding him back. Playing C and being deep in the corners and not the W giving support. He’s body on body a lot the time in the ozone as C. He needs space and as a winger he had that space. Problem is you need someone to be able to win battles and have the IQ and playmaking ability to find the open guy.

Dude it’s game 3, we know Pettersson was indeed battling something from January all the way through the end of game 7. How long did that take recover, did this impact his offseason conditioning and training and have him a little further behind? We do not know.  But his production is in fact affected by several things.

TOI

Zone distribution 

PK

new line mates.

 

It’s safe to say he is battling a lot when it comes to trying to find offence. Idk about you but sometimes it takes a few games to get going and get into a rhythm. You know who else hasn’t looked all that sharp? Hughes. His passing hasn’t been sharp, he’s not getting shots through, he’s held onto the puck a few times too long and what was a perfect one timer opportunity is taken away. 
 

We are 0-1-2

Oilers are supposed to be the new fuckin cup favourites and are barely 1-3-0 and horribly outscored against 3 teams not picked for playoffs. 7-18 in terms of GF/GA. Yikes.

Edited Wednesday at 09:39 PM by AnthonyG

[-dlc-]

1 hour ago, JayDangles said:

He made a good point about needing to watch the game instead of looking at statistics to try and prove a point.

 

The reality is the eye test, game in and game out is proving that EP is EP's problem. Not his ice time, or Ozone starts, or linemates. Pettersson is Petterssons problem

But it happens. Players hit slumps and yes, Petey's in one. For one reason or another (irrelevant, really).

 

But people almost seem angry over it. Like somehow his contract gives us some kind of right to hate on him. Trash him.

 

He's our player. He's done some really good stuff and is having trouble finding his game right now. He's not floating...he's hitting. He's trying. 

 

So maybe stats are part of the problem because that's what people are looking at - the goals he's not scoring.

 

He's not without criticism, sure. But my God, it's all some people are focused on these days. 

 

Scapegoat just changes numbers it seems.