[PGT] Vancouver Canucks @ Tampa Bay Lightning Oct 15

[MillersWrister]

16 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

looking at the scheulde for the next 7 games there's only 2 that we can say is a guaranteed win.. based on how we are playing atm.. it's not improbable we only have 2-3 wins in the first 10 games.. when do we start being concerned with this team? offensively it's really non existent dating back to prior to the all star game.. and we've been relying on unrealistic shooting %.. defensively we prolly gotten worse in the off season by a fair bit if u ask me.. are we just going to accept this is what we are? or at some point we are going to say this style of hockey we playing simply ain't working?? prior to the all star game we were on like a 120 point pace.. since the all star break we were on a 94 point pace.. and if u include this year we are on a sub 90 point pace... some will point and say well we won a round in playoff and took edmonton to 7 games with a backup backup goalie.. but i say we won more so because of suspect goaltending on the other team during the playoff and we once again shooting at improbably shooting %.. right now our powerplay continue to suck.. and we are no longer shooting at 15%.. we dont have demko right now to keep the goal to below 2 so how do we fix this team before we are out of it by november? i think it's unrealistic we can start the season close to edmonton last year and expect to go on a tear once demko is back.

When we are down Demko and Joshua, players like Petey have to take over and lead. Miller has been decent but not perfect, Boeser has been good, Quinn has been Quinn, the issue is Petey is doing nothing. Add in our D is weaker as you said, and Silovs is not standing on his head our best need to be their best. I really disliked Tocchet not playing our starting lineup until the last game. We have a new group, they should have played together more. Part of this is also on him

 

Let's hope they find a way to win tomorrow

[Hammertime]

11 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Yes, he looks like an out of shape old man out there, as very many have noted.  When I see him show up out of shape like this now, it sure makes we worry what kind of shape he'll show up in - in the later stages of his contract when it ends in the early 2030's of the next decade - when he's pushing 40!

 

 

 

 

[stawns]

47 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I think a public flogging should suffice.

[wai_lai416]

2 minutes ago, MillersWrister said:

When we are down Demko and Joshua, players like Petey have to take over and lead. Miller has been decent but not perfect, Boeser has been good, Quinn has been Quinn, the issue is Petey is doing nothing. Add in our D is weaker as you said, and Silovs is not standing on his head our best need to be their best. I really disliked Tocchet not playing our starting lineup until the last game. We have a new group, they should have played together more. Part of this is also on him

 

Let's hope they find a way to win tomorrow

well the EP shruggle also coincided with them getting rid of kuzmenko since he doesn't play tocchet hockey and the hard focus to defence only.. and if you ask me... i dont think anyone is doing much 5v5.. whatever tocchet decided to do with the team defence since the all star game.. well it's not exactly working imo since we are barely above .500 since and whenever we ain't shooting at 15%+ we lose the game. 

[Dr. Crossbar]

1 hour ago, DeNiro said:

I think a public flogging should suffice.

 

Cat 'o nine tails! 

[tas]

6 hours ago, RWJC said:

No it’s not, that’s why I was making my previous points. But to treat the situation as though he’s completely failing this team isn’t acceptable either. He’s struggling and he needs to turn it around, however that occurs. The majority of it is on him, the other aspect is for the org to insulate him effectively until he makes his way back to previous form. Can’t say that it’s been a steady or highly skilled linemate situation for him to build on, but at the same time he’s arguably not made effective the players he’s been given to play with and that’s on him to make most of. 

yeah, he's looked more or less like a black hole to me. 

[tas]

5 hours ago, RWJC said:

Roster turnover. You’re expecting a lot in a short time there my man 

I expected the same devotion they had in the previous summer and fall, only now with the benefit of experience.

 

last season how many new guys were there? suter, blueger, lafferty, hronek, cole, soucy, friedman, desmith ... who am I missing?

 

didn't seem to be excuse-worthy last year. doesn't float with me this year either. with this coaching staff, there's no excuse for this group to not be prepared. and you can see it in tocc's press conferences. he's choked. 

[RWJC]

1 hour ago, tas said:

yeah, he's looked more or less like a black hole to me. 

Hardly the case. Too much hyperbole in this fan base, imho

[RWJC]

2 hours ago, tas said:

I expected the same devotion they had in the previous summer and fall, only now with the benefit of experience.

 

last season how many new guys were there? suter, blueger, lafferty, hronek, cole, soucy, friedman, desmith ... who am I missing?

 

didn't seem to be excuse-worthy last year. doesn't float with me this year either. with this coaching staff, there's no excuse for this group to not be prepared. and you can see it in tocc's press conferences. he's choked. 

What is your realistic expectation for this club this season? It’s funny how other teams can be in a similar boat so early on but people completely ignore that and instead piss and shit all over this club as though we’re the anomaly.

 

its a fair argument to have a high expectation for their play. It’s  altogether completely unfair when after only 3 games played that anyone basically castrate this team. Give it 10-15 and let’s see where they are at then. That’s the standard - by US Thanksgiving. That’d be a realistic time frame for assessment. At this point though, totally premature to form an educated position and displays either a lack of patience or consideration for the club’s potential and the experience you mention. 
 

I dont think you are one of the fairweather fans, but try and temper your expectations a bit. We already have enough of those fans that rant and rave and inherently want the team to fail just so they can prove their own suggestions true. 

Edited yesterday at 07:30 AM by RWJC

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

For better or worse the team/franchise is married to EP.   Will this deal go the way Subban's did?  Or Parise?  It's hard to tell for sure.   He didn't quite take the 14% plus that superstars make but close enough.   And absolutely there should be some accountability.  At the same time we can give him some slack (for awhile anyways).    To put it in perspective, he's earning a crap ton more than Bure did, and Mogilny.   About what Naslund made (and he was a top player for a few years league wide),  and 2% more than the Sedins.    It's fair to critique. 

We're all holding our breath for 11-6, but if he continues his dry spell that started back in January until the TDL, "you can bet the house" he'll be unloaded in a heart beat because JR is well known for impatience and intolerance and he wouldn't blink an eyelash doing so to avoid being caught in a 8 year death sentence of wasting almost $12M a year for a wounded fawn especially a soft Swedish one - before his NTC kicks in next year. 

 

They just ate $20M unloading that other useless freeloading swede O.E.L. (which they got while unloading another useless prima-donna swede: L.E.), and walked away from yet another swede that that didn't "fit-in"; Lind- , who they wasted 5 big assets for, so don't kidd yourself, 11-6 is any more special and they'd easily eat another few million of salary retention/per year in a heartbeat to unload his contract if they think he's become another useless Swedish boat anchor.  Jr won't piss around like P.A. - you can count on that!

 

 

Edited yesterday at 09:01 AM by RU SERIOUS
typo

[Mrwipeout]

1 hour ago, RU SERIOUS said:

We're all holding our breath for 11-6, but if he continues his dry spell that started back in January until the TDL, "you can bet the house" he'll be unloaded in a heart beat because JR is well known for impatience and intolerance and he wouldn't blink an eyelash doing so to avoid being caught in a 8 year death sentence of wasting almost $12M a year for a wounded fawn especially a soft Swedish one - before his NTC kicks in next year. 

 

They just ate $20M unloading that other useless freeloading swede O.E.L. (which they got while unloading another useless prima-donna swede: L.E.), and walked away from yet another swede that that didn't "fit-in"; Lind- , who they wasted 5 big assets for, so don't kidd yourself, 11-6 is any more special and they'd easily eat another few million of salary retention/per year in a heartbeat to unload his contract if they think he's become another useless Swedish boat anchor.  Jr won't piss around like P.A. - you can count on that!

 

 

Like everyones mentioned its early, but if the team doesnt win at least 8 out of the first 15 we are gonna have a mediocre year. Key players underperforming is not the only thing that will happen but big trades like that wont happen untill end of the season. Stakes are higher, demand is higher coz we know what they actually are capable of. Top 6 is not in sync and there has been no chemistry that allows for pressure and producing chances. we need to find that or as u say, players will be gone, including key ones. we need to find chemistry, coz we are underperforming and playing less then 50/50. no sight of last years pressure in the O-zone and that makes me worried since we havent seen that during the preseason either. 

[AnotherCanucksFan]

20 hours ago, HKSR said:

Petey has such a massive hill to climb.  When he inked that $11.6M deal, he put immense pressure on himself.  Look at it this way...  

 

Top cap hits in NHL:

1. 13.25M Matthews 

2. 12.6M Mackinnon

3. $12.5M McDavid 

4. $11.643M Panarin

5. $11.6M Pettersson

 

Scary how high his production and consistency needs to climb to be earning this kinda money.

 

NOTE: William Nylander would be 6th on the list at 11.5m. He's 27 w 9 years NHL experience. He was a 80-100pt player the last three years. Games / Pts in playoffs is similar to Matthews. Maybe Petey will be a similar level player? If Petey scores 80+ would Canuck's fans be happy?

 

Two factors to consider are AGE and EXPERIENCE ( not including this year ). Petey is the youngest of the 5 players listed. By age / years in NHL: Panarin 32 / 9, Mackinnon 29 / 11, Matthews 27 / 8, McDavid 27 / 9, and Pettersson 25 / 6. One common theme is that most, other than Panarin, have only played for ONE team their entire career.

He's the youngest by TWO years and least experienced by TWO years. He's had only 30 playoff games experience, while the next closet to him is Matthews at 55 playoff games ( with comparable pts ). 

 

The question is Petey a 60-70pt player or a 100+ pt player? Right now, he's had two 90-100+ pt and three 65-70pt seasons. 

 

Given his age and less experience in the NHL and in the playoffs, should the Canucks Office have considered that before giving him the 5th highest salary in the league. I think while he had the 100+ season, he's got several years to be battle tested. 

 

People are judging him based on his salary and not his age / lack of experience. He shouldn't be paid 11.6 now, but that doesn't mean he can't get to similar heights as the other 4 players in time.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by AnotherCanucksFan

[AnthonyG]

14 hours ago, stawns said:

 

Well, the burden of proof is well established.  Without drmko covering the warts, they are a very underwhelming team.  The whole second half and even the success of their playoffs, have shown that continually get outworked and outplayed.  

Few things…. When your top player is battling injury and your newest addition is struggling pre-trade and comes in and continues to struggle and your lines get thrown into a blender to get something going… it’s going to be ugly. But to say we got outworked in our second half is wrong. The playoffs was not Demko covering warts, it was our defence and our full team effort covering warts in the crease. Silovs was not at all a game saver or good by any stretch. His numbers have him as one of the weakest goalies through 2 rounds and still one of the worst GSAA’s in the entire playoffs.

 

[stawns]

20 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Few things…. When your top player is battling injury and your newest addition is struggling pre-trade and comes in and continues to struggle and your lines get thrown into a blender to get something going… it’s going to be ugly. But to say we got outworked in our second half is wrong. The playoffs was not Demko covering warts, it was our defence and our full team effort covering warts in the crease. Silovs was not at all a game saver or good by any stretch. His numbers have him as one of the weakest goalies through 2 rounds and still one of the worst GSAA’s in the entire playoffs.

 

 

That's some revisionist history right there

[AnthonyG]

8 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

That's some revisionist history right there

When you have struggling players and lose your starter AND your back up almost immediately after heading into playoffs and take out one of the top 2 teams post ASG and the other one to a game 7… you are not getting out worked. NSH and EDM had the two best records after the ASG. Don’t dismiss the teams work in that post season run, had we had Demko or maybe one less own goal, we would be that team in the finals and likely raising the cup in my opinion. Demko>Skinner we wouldn’t go down 3-0.

[flat land fish]

20 hours ago, HKSR said:

I think he's gotta be north of 100.  90 isn't enough production when you're the 5th highest cap hit in the entire NHL.

I hear what you are saying but another perspective is that as a long term deal in a rising cap environment its more likely the contract is between 10-20 largest for the prime years period.  If he's consistently atleast a 90 point guy that plays d responsible hockey canucks are getting lots of value.

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

I hear what you are saying but another perspective is that as a long term deal in a rising cap environment its more likely the contract is between 10-20 largest for the prime years period.  If he's consistently atleast a 90 point guy that plays d responsible hockey canucks are getting lots of value.

I think as long as he has the 5th highest cap hit in the league, the expectation would be a 100+ consistent producer (or top 5 producer in the league).  If/when guys start leap frogging him and he drops to the 10th to 20th top paid player in the league, then we should expect his production to be top 10 to 20. 

[flat land fish]

2 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I think as long as he has the 5th highest cap hit in the league, the expectation would be a 100+ consistent producer (or top 5 producer in the league).  If/when guys start leap frogging him and he drops to the 10th to 20th top paid player in the league, then we should expect his production to be top 10 to 20. 

I assume you are aware there are 11 players with cap hits 11 mill or higher and 17 over 10 mill.  I think you are over simplifying points per cap hit dollar. Considering how star players are paid.

[stawns]

22 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

I assume you are aware there are 11 players with cap hits 11 mill or higher and 17 over 10 mill.  I think you are over simplifying points per cap hit dollar. Considering how star players are paid.

And if the pressure is on anyone, it should be on PA.  Petey can only do what he can do....PA offered and signed him to the deal 

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, flat land fish said:

I assume you are aware there are 11 players with cap hits 11 mill or higher and 17 over 10 mill.  I think you are over simplifying points per cap hit dollar. Considering how star players are paid.

I am, but end of the day, production = dollars.  I don't count Pettersson as some elite defensive forward.  I've mentioned in a previous post how he had ONE season where he had over 100 Selke votes, that wasn't even top 3 that year.  Last year he had 6 votes.  The other years before he had ZERO.  So as it stands, Petey is an offensive centreman, not a Selke-level centreman that can get away with lower production because of his defensive prowess (a la Barkov). 

 

When you look at the top cap hits in the league, they are:

 

Matthews

Mackinnon

McDavid

Panarin

Pettersson

Nylander

Karlsson

Pastrnak

Dahlin

Tavares

 

As of the past 1/2 of a season and the start of this season, I'd say Petey's performance would be ranked somewhere near the bottom of that list, and in terms of performance per dollar, he's a lot closer to a Tavares than a Panarin.  That would of course raise concerns amongst the Canucks fan base. 

 

[stawns]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

When you have struggling players and lose your starter AND your back up almost immediately after heading into playoffs and take out one of the top 2 teams post ASG and the other one to a game 7… you are not getting out worked. NSH and EDM had the two best records after the ASG. Don’t dismiss the teams work in that post season run, had we had Demko or maybe one less own goal, we would be that team in the finals and likely raising the cup in my opinion. Demko>Skinner we wouldn’t go down 3-0.

 

The Canucks got thoroughly outworked and outplayed by both Nashville and Edmonton and Silovs (and desmith) were the only reason they had any success.

 

I couldn't care less what silovs numbers were........he would go 10 mi s straight with the puck in zone, getting peppered with high danger chance after high danger chance

[AnthonyG]

33 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

The Canucks got thoroughly outworked and outplayed by both Nashville and Edmonton and Silovs (and desmith) were the only reason they had any success.

 

I couldn't care less what silovs numbers were........he would go 10 mi s straight with the puck in zone, getting peppered with high danger chance after high danger chance

Weird because the stats show

5v5 vs NSH

SCF 129

SCA 98 

HDCF 51

HSCA 40

xGF 11.87

xGA 10.39

NSH was out chanced heavily

 

5v5 vs EDM

SCF 133

SCA 143

HDCF 53

HDCA 57

only 4 more high danger chances at 5v5. 

xGF 12.95

xGA 13.09

 

Pretty god damn even and considering Pettersson was struggling, EDM got off lucky as fuck especially without a health Demko.

 

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by AnthonyG

[RU SERIOUS]

8 hours ago, Mrwipeout said:

Like everyones mentioned its early, but if the team doesnt win at least 8 out of the first 15 we are gonna have a mediocre year. Key players underperforming is not the only thing that will happen but big trades like that wont happen untill end of the season. Stakes are higher, demand is higher coz we know what they actually are capable of. Top 6 is not in sync and there has been no chemistry that allows for pressure and producing chances. we need to find that or as u say, players will be gone, including key ones. we need to find chemistry, coz we are underperforming and playing less then 50/50. no sight of last years pressure in the O-zone and that makes me worried since we havent seen that during the preseason either. 

....and you can bet if it comes down to 11-6 continuing his slump, that JR will wait until the very last days before TDL to unload him so they've given him every opportunity possible to break out of his slump - until they dump him.   As far as chemistry goes, aside from the 3rd line (with DJ out for a bit longer) and Miller+BB6, there is hasn't been any chemistry with any other forwards ditto for defense except QH and -wreck.  

[RU SERIOUS]

7 hours ago, AnotherCanucksFan said:

 

NOTE: William Nylander would be 6th on the list at 11.5m. He's 27 w 9 years NHL experience. He was a 80-100pt player the last three years. Games / Pts in playoffs is similar to Matthews. Maybe Petey will be a similar level player? If Petey scores 80+ would Canuck's fans be happy?

 

Two factors to consider are AGE and EXPERIENCE ( not including this year ). Petey is the youngest of the 5 players listed. By age / years in NHL: Panarin 32 / 9, Mackinnon 29 / 11, Matthews 27 / 8, McDavid 27 / 9, and Pettersson 25 / 6. One common theme is that most, other than Panarin, have only played for ONE team their entire career.

He's the youngest by TWO years and least experienced by TWO years. He's had only 30 playoff games experience, while the next closet to him is Matthews at 55 playoff games ( with comparable pts ). 

 

The question is Petey a 60-70pt player or a 100+ pt player? Right now, he's had two 90-100+ pt and three 65-70pt seasons. 

 

Given his age and less experience in the NHL and in the playoffs, should the Canucks Office have considered that before giving him the 5th highest salary in the league. I think while he had the 100+ season, he's got several years to be battle tested. 

 

People are judging him based on his salary and not his age / lack of experience. He shouldn't be paid 11.6 now, but that doesn't mean he can't get to similar heights as the other 4 players in time.

 

They over paid him by $2-2.5M and possibly alot more if his 9 month long slump continues.    Sure hope he gets back on his feet because it's going to be a painful contract to unload!

[RU SERIOUS]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

And if the pressure is on anyone, it should be on PA.  Petey can only do what he can do....PA offered and signed him to the deal 

You mean the same guy that wasted 7 good assets on those two rentals from Cgy last year that we lost for nothing???  That guy????