Could Bedard be equal or better than McDavid or Crosby?

[AnthonyG]

21 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 Not sure where McDavid will eventually fall, but he is definitely not beating any of those guys if he never wins a cup...

I don’t see him winning within the confines of a salary cap era. COVID+Hard cap fucked McDavid and the Oilers out of a cup.

like Crosby, McDavid signed a monster deal that takes a few years at the least for the cap to catch up to inflation. Crosby was fortunate Malkin was on the final year of his ELC in 09. Once Malkin added ink to paper it took 7 years to get back to being a top contender. McDavid on the other hand signed his in 2018 and in under 2 years the cap froze and sat at max inflation. Now the cap has finally budged just in time for Draisaitls monster deal, then Bouchard and McDavid+Skinner after that

We got screwed immediately, but we benefited long term. Edmonton benefited from Draisaitl deal, but got royally fucked down the road and for a very long time

Edited 2 hours ago by AnthonyG

[Ballisticsports]

17 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So one tournament and he's breaking Gretzky records?  Bedard isn't even in the same stratosphere as Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr...

Wrong to compare Bedard to Gretzky even as a junior

 

Gretzky only played 1 tournament as a 16 yr old and leads all 16 yr olds in scoring in that tournament with 17 pts. in 6 games

Those 17 pts have him  sitting at 15th overall (all time scoring) from just 1 tournament and 6 games

 

Bedard sits at #2 as a 16 yr old 553 overall with 8 pts in 7 games

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I don’t see him winning within the confines of a salary cap era. COVID+Hard cap fucked McDavid and the Oilers out of a cup.

like Crosby, McDavid signed a monster deal that takes a few years at the least for the cap to catch up to inflation. Crosby was fortunate Malkin was on the final year of his ELC in 09. Once Malkin added ink to paper it took 7 years to get back to being a top contender. McDavid on the other hand signed his in 2018 and in under 2 years the cap froze and sat at max inflation. Now the cap has finally budged just in time for Draisaitls monster deal, then Bouchard and McDavid+Skinner after that

We got screwed immediately, but we benefited long term. Edmonton benefited from Draisaitl deal, but got royally fucked down the road and for a very long time

 

bad Oilers management did that. McDoofus wasn't fucked out of anything. 

 

[AnthonyG]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

bad Oilers management did that. McDoofus wasn't fucked out of anything. 

 

No, Crosby set the rate in 08

Crosby 8.7mil (15.34%)

McDavid 12.5mil (15.72%)

 

Crosby won a cup with Malkin on an ELC which kept them under 20% of total salary cap combined.

McDavid 12.5+Draisaitl 8.5 = 21mil 25%.
that 25% hasn’t changed until now and next year it’s going to be an even bigger % then again the following season

@Bob Long

Edited 2 hours ago by AnthonyG

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

No, Crosby set the rate in 08

Crosby 8.7mil (15.34%)

McDavid 12.5mil (15.72%)

 

Crosby has 3 cups. yes it is bad oilers management, they didn't support him like Sid was supported. 

 

[AnthonyG]

25 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Crosby has 3 cups. yes it is bad oilers management, they didn't support him like Sid was supported. 

 

Easy to support Sid with Malkin on an ELC.  
add Malkins 8.7mil to that 2008 cup team and then subtract 7.8mil worth of talent and see how deep that team goes. Probably bounced in the 2nd round at best. 

 

[Bob Long]

Just now, AnthonyG said:

Easy to support Sid with Malkin on an ELC.  
add Malkins 8.7mil to that 2008 cup team and then subtract 7.8mil worth of talent and see how deep that team goes. Probably bounced in the 2nd round at best. 

 

 

but he has Draibaby. 

 

Sorry AG, I don't see how anyone can defend oilers management, they really screwed that team over with bad choices. 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

46 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

No, Crosby set the rate in 08

Crosby 8.7mil (15.34%)

McDavid 12.5mil (15.72%)

 

Crosby won a cup with Malkin on an ELC which kept them under 20% of total salary cap combined.

McDavid 12.5+Draisaitl 8.5 = 21mil 25%.
that 25% hasn’t changed until now and next year it’s going to be an even bigger % then again the following season

@Bob Long

 

Crosby and Malkin were around 25% of total cap in 2016 and 2017 when they won two more cups.  On that 2017 cup team they had 6 guys taking over 50% of the cap (Crosby, Malkin, MAF, Letang, Kessel and Hornqvist).

Edited 1 hour ago by Elias Pettersson

[Coconuts]

No, what McDavid is achieving is nuts

 

Crosby should break 1800 points by the time it's all said and done and arguably be a top 5 player all time (if not for prime year injuries, lockout, Covid he'd probably break 2k), McDavid has almost 1k and he's played just over 650 games

 

Bedard will be great, but not as great

Edited 1 hour ago by Coconuts

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

but he has Draibaby. 

 

Sorry AG, I don't see how anyone can defend oilers management, they really screwed that team over with bad choices. 

 

Draisaitl is at 8.5 he was still over 10%.

if the cap didn’t freeze they would combine for less than 20% today based on what the projected cap was to be this season 4 years later.

cant blame Oilers management for not having a crystal ball. They handed out a deal that has been handed out to several stars around the league since the cap was introduced and those guys still went on to win cups as soon as the cap caught up. Just like Chicago won 3 cups within the ELC and bridge deals of Kane and Toews. They signed their big ticket and lost in 7 and then got swept. They have made the playoffs 3 times since they handed out those 2 contracts.

Kane and Toews were around 20-21% combined during their bridge deals. Their payday combined for nearly 30% 21mil in 2015….. 

 

Yes the Nurse contract is pure fucking trash. But Draisaitls discounted production made up for that. 

[Kevin Biestra]

13 hours ago, -Buzzsaw- said:

Another nod to Howe:

 

In 1968/69, at age 40, and playing on a poor Detroit team which finished out of the playoffs, (in the NHL, not WHL) he scored 44 goals and 103 points behind Esposito, (126 points) and Hull. (107 pts)

 

Can you name anyone else at that age who was that competitive ?

 

Maybe only Jacques Plante and Johnny Bower.  (Bower Vezina at 40, Plante Vezina at 40 and 5th for the Hart at 42).

[Kevin Biestra]

15 hours ago, -Buzzsaw- said:

I agree Gordie gets underrated because his point totals per season are less than the modern era.   But it was HARD to score goals back then, there was so much grabbing, holding, elbowing, interference, slashing... what players get called for as slashing now would not even be considered back then... would be thought of as love taps.  You really had to take a two handed hatchet to an opponent to get a slashing call.

 

People also look at Howe's size... 6 foot 205 lbs... as not particularly big for modern times... but in that era... he was a big guy.  People over 6 foot back then were relatively unheard of because big guys couldn't skate... there were not the clinics and instruction to get big clumsy guys comfortable on skates.

 

Compared to his peers, (always compare to the players of the era) Howe was dominant in so many ways.

 

Has any modern superstar being able to dominate the game in goalscoring, assists, and then also be able to physically run the other team out of the rink ?  Maybe Eric Lindros for a few years till he got his block knocked off... but Gordie did it at peak levels for 15 years and without a helmet or the kind of padding and equipment you see now !  And then after his peak went on to play another 17 years in the NHL/WHL/NHL...  completely unheard of. 

 

And remember, the WHL teams in the years Gordie played were relatively comparable or better, (Jets and Whalers) than NHL teams in skill level.

 

Look at Gordies totals for both NHL and WHL:

 

2,186 games played,  975 goals scored,  1,383 assists,  2,358 toal points,  2,084 Penalty minutes

 

If you count the WHL goal scoring, then Gordie is still on top... better than Gretz.

 

Picture of Gordie in his prime:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes the WHA really gets underrated in terms of how competitive it was with the NHL.  I think the stats should be rolled in with the NHLs.  Some players like Mike Rogers scored at a higher clip in the NHL than they did in the WHA and some of the WHA's stars like Real Cloutier would have been Hall of Famers based on NHL performance had they been there the whole time and uninjured.

[Coconuts]

13 hours ago, Blue said:

I agree that Bedard is a half and half player. There's even some Kucherov in him as he slows things down and scans the ice. 

 

But as you'll see in the thread, for whatever reason, a lot of people have lost the plot on Bedard. He has become underrated. 

 

I don't think he's underrated, I think he's simply played a single fullish season of NHL hockey and folks already want to compare him to established greats 

 

Folks know he has talent, but it's still early 

[DrJockitch]

He is Connor Bedard. Why does he have to be anyone else?  
All the junior accolades and WJC says yeah he should be a first overall pick and that is it. 
He will be a good NHL scorer, don’t know if he will be a great one.  
It is useless to try and compare players in different eras, it was a completely different game. 

[AnthonyG]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Crosby and Malkin were around 25% of total cap in 2016 and 2017 when they won two more cups...

Yea you’re not wrong 24.5% in 2016 and 23.8% in 2017. But those guys were also in their peak prime. Think of the depth the Oilers would have had last season with an additional 10-15mil in cap space based on projected increases in 2020. 2020-21 was supposed to be 84-88mil. There were significant projected jumps that’s a lot of money then and a lot of money now. https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-salary-cap-84-88-2-million-next-season/?sn-amp think of where the bar could have been last season if it took a 5 mil jump in 2020.

 

Say we took 4 mil from Nurse’s deal and gave it to Draisaitl through his last deal, deservingly so. Now your top 2 players are both 12.5mil, Nurse is 5.25mil (right around where he should be) and now you have the same outcome. 30% between 2 players. Over spent on one guy and underspent big time on another, it’s a moot point.

[Elias Pettersson]

9 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea you’re not wrong 24.5% in 2016 and 23.8% in 2017. But those guys were also in their peak prime. Think of the depth the Oilers would have had last season with an additional 10-15mil in cap space based on projected increases in 2020. 2020-21 was supposed to be 84-88mil. There were significant projected jumps that’s a lot of money then and a lot of money now. https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-salary-cap-84-88-2-million-next-season/?sn-amp think of where the bar could have been last season if it took a 5 mil jump in 2020.

 

Say we took 4 mil from Nurse’s deal and gave it to Draisaitl through his last deal, deservingly so. Now your top 2 players are both 12.5mil, Nurse is 5.25mil (right around where he should be) and now you have the same outcome. 30% between 2 players. Over spent on one guy and underspent big time on another, it’s a moot point.

 

This is true, however every team had to work with the same cap.  Tampa managed to win two cups with a $9.5 million goalie.

 

Taking Nurse's money away and giving it to another player would have been ideal.  However, management gave him that deal.  No way he is even worth $6 million right now.  So, as @Bob Long has stated, you have to give blame to the management for fucking everything up.  

 

Now, they are gonna be in a situation where they will have to pay McDavid, Draisaitl and Nurse over $40 million combined, which will be 42% of the cap when the contracts take effect.  In a nutshell, Edmonton is fooked...

[AnthonyG]

15 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

This is true, however every team had to work with the same cap.  Tampa managed to win two cups with a $9.5 million goalie.

 

Taking Nurse's money away and giving it to another player would have been ideal.  However, management gave him that deal.  No way he is even worth $6 million right now.  So, as @Bob Long has stated, you have to give blame to the management for fucking everything up.  

 

Now, they are gonna be in a situation where they will have to pay McDavid, Draisaitl and Nurse over $40 million combined, which will be 42% of the cap when the contracts take effect.  In a nutshell, Edmonton is fooked...

My apologies, I’m on a sleepless night. Yea the Nurse contract is absolutely fucking atrocious and I do wonder what the fuck was in Kenny Hollands coffee that day. To not onlyhand out a 9.25mil deal to Nurse…. But to do it in a frozen fucking cap wtf??!

 

My whole point is that even with that Nurse deal, they would have been able to recover with a growing salary cap. They were stuck at max inflation on McDavids deal from 2019 until this summer. There is easily 20mil of salary cap growth that is missing today. That’s a 25% chunk of change they could have handed out the last few seasons and built a deeper team, much deeper.

 

 

[AnthonyG]

25 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Now, they are gonna be in a situation where they will have to pay McDavid, Draisaitl and Nurse over $40 million combined, which will be 42% of the cap when the contracts take effect.  In a nutshell, Edmonton is fooked...

It’s going to be hilarious, I’ve been saying this for a couple years on the forums. We got caught with our pants down, other teams would get caught in bed. No one could foresee the frozen cap, hard to blame anyone for that and its impact. I’m glad we were hit early and not down the road.