Update: Zach Benson Makes Buffalo Sabres Roster

[Warhippy]

Benson will do FAR bette tracking his development through another year or two in the minors and possibly AHL as opposed to being thrust in to an NHL role.  As @Sabrefan1 said, a cup of coffee a look see and back down to the WHL because IIRC Buffalo doesn't necessarily have the space for another winger at the moment and also doesn't need to rush him at all with their timeline

[Baratheon]

33 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yup. Garland is way more physical and harder on pucks. 

I swear you’re trying to reverse curse the Sabres Alfie.  This comment should age about as well as last years “Dahlin is a busteroo” comments.

Buffalo is an up and coming team with a lot of size to insulate a guy like Benson.  They have plenty of cap space, prospects and picks to add to what they already have.  They’re in a division where their opponents are all up against (over) the cap and (aside from Florida) getting old.

 

Non believers will change their tune before too long.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Baratheon

[Pears]

3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Honestly really only put that bit in there so I had some sort of "reason" for creating the thread lol.

 

I really just wanted to shout at the clouds over the fact I'm still upset we didn't draft Benson lol. 

Ahh yes another undersized skilled winger exactly what we need right now

[BlockerHigh]

5 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Needless to say, many of us were disappointed that the team didn't draft Benson this past year as they believe he's going to be an easy land on an NHL player despite being undersized, very similar to when Cole Caufield was passed on in favour of Podkolzin. As I like to do, I've been keeping up with how he's doing and the fan reception around this particular pick. So far, nothing but overwhelming reviews. He's gone from "no chance he plays in the NHL this year" to "well, let's see how he performs at training camp" to "wow, this kid is good but let's not rush his development, let's keep him away from the NHL before we prematurely throw him to the wolves" to "maybe we'll just give him 9 games?" to "why don't we just have this kid on the team and insert him into our top 6?". 

 

He's played well in every game he's been showcased in, whether it's been their prospects tournament to scrimmages to pre-season games. Buffalo fans are wondering how he fell to them and despite having higher picks in their system, he's their best non-roster prospect.

 

I wonder if this will eventually put some unnecessary pressure on Willander, considering he's nowhere close to the readiness that Benson is at. 

 

 

We wanted Hunter Shinkaruk to make the team as a rookie too....preseason means nothing

Bedard isn't putting up points, should Chicago send him back?

 

A bit too soon to start whining about Benson no? Can we wait 3-4 years please?

[BlockerHigh]

4 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Honestly really only put that bit in there so I had some sort of "reason" for creating the thread lol.

 

I really just wanted to shout at the clouds over the fact I'm still upset we didn't draft Benson lol. 

When you look at our prospect pool and system, do we need more big RD who can skate and move the puck? Or more small scoring wingers? How do you win in hockey? With a bunch of little guys who put up points in Junior? Or a TEAM which (ALL cup winners) has a big strong D? Scoring is not our problem, nor is it a problem in our prospect pool.

I think we all know the answer dude.

Edited October 2, 2023 by BlockerHigh

[gwarrior]

So Buffalo fans want to throw this into the deep end, eh? If he's ready, go for it. But if he's not, I wouldn't rush him. Hell, I would love to have Willander here and ready to go, but I also dont want to rush him and wreck his development.

[Riddikulus]

1 hour ago, Pears said:

Ahh yes another undersized skilled winger exactly what we need right now

27 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

When you look at our prospect pool and system, do we need more big RD who can skate and move the puck? Or more small scoring wingers? How do you win in hockey? With a bunch of little guys who put up points in Junior? Or a TEAM which (ALL cup winners) has a big strong D? Scoring is not our problem, nor is it a problem in our prospect pool.

I think we all know the answer dude.

Conventional draft wisdom states that you don't draft for 'need' as those change with the passing of time. We likely won't see Benson in the NHL for at least a year, Willander at least two. Who knows exactly what this team looks like in a couple of years. Its possible that we maybe in a position to sign or trade for a great RHD in free agency. It also maybe possible that our depth on the wings doesn't look good enough in a couple of years. When Alvin spoke at the draft he did state that Willander was the best player on their draft board. Alvin did also add that Willander filled a need in the organization but that was incidental and not the reason why he was selected in that spot.

 

Only time will tell if we were right to draft Willander, it will be dependent on the development of both players. If both players hit their expected upside I think Willander ends up being the better selection, if either player far exceeds that expectation then we may have to re-evaluate that but as of now I like our chances personally. I don't think its an outlandish opinion to prefer Benson as a prospect, dismissing him just based on size and the position he plays imho does not make sense. Juolevi vs. Tkachuk is the best example of that, people argued for years that we needed a defenseman and that's why the selection made sense.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Riddikulus

[BlockerHigh]

Just now, Riddikulus said:

Conventional draft wisdom states that you don't draft for 'need' as those change with the passing of time. We likely won't see Benson in the NHL for at least a year, Willander at least two. Who knows exactly what this team looks like in a couple of years. Its possible that we maybe in a position to sign or trade for a great RHD in free agency. It also maybe possible that our depth on the wings doesn't look good enough in a couple of years. When Alvin spoke at the draft he did state that Willander was the best player on their draft board. Alvin did also add that Willander filled a need in the organization but that was incidental and not the reason why he was selected in that spot.

 

Only time will tell if we were right to draft Willander, it will be dependent on the development of both players. If both players hit their expected upside I think Willander ends up being the better selection, if either player far exceeds that expectation then we may have to re-evaluate that but as of now I like our chances personally. I don't think its an outlandish opinion to prefer Benson as a prospect, dismissing him just based on size and the position he plays imho does not make sense.

The reality is, its much harder for a small skilled player to make the NHL than a big strong skating RD

 

So that goes into the BPA consideration. Yes development matters and elite skill is elite skill, but there's alot more high draft pick Zach Benson's in the AHL than Willander's....And yes who knows what the team will look like but I can guarantee we don't have any high end RD prospects other than Willander. You have to consider that RD is like Center, its a premium position that most teams draft and develop because they are pricey to acquire. BPA is not just stats and skating...its taken in the context of organizational needs.

[MeanSeanBean]

I was gutted when we didn't draft Benson. I'll watch him closely thorough his career

[DrJockitch]

2 hours ago, BlockerHigh said:

When you look at our prospect pool and system, do we need more big RD who can skate and move the puck? Or more small scoring wingers? How do you win in hockey? With a bunch of little guys who put up points in Junior? Or a TEAM which (ALL cup winners) has a big strong D? Scoring is not our problem, nor is it a problem in our prospect pool.

I think we all know the answer dude.

To be fair small is never a wanted aspect in NHL players at any position. It is something you can accept and work around if there are other aspects that make them special as athletes or players. 
But big or small we needed D and especially RD in our system and PA did the right thing and went after a lot in the draft and should again next year. 

[BlockerHigh]

1 hour ago, DrJockitch said:

To be fair small is never a wanted aspect in NHL players at any position. It is something you can accept and work around if there are other aspects that make them special as athletes or players. 
But big or small we needed D and especially RD in our system and PA did the right thing and went after a lot in the draft and should again next year. 

My view on small is a player is they have to be offensively elite AND very fast or fast with above average agility. Small players who are simply "good skaters' but not elite in speed or mobility seldom make it. And that's on TOP of being elite offensively. 

 

That makes it very hard. A bigger player can always carve out a spot even if their offense doesn't come along at the NHL level. If he can still skate well and can be physical he can find a role. Basically, a small player is top 6 or bust, and as such, its a higher risk that you'll end up with a NHL player. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by BlockerHigh

[Amebushi]

So the discussion here seems to revolve around Benson being closer to NHL ready than Willander at this time. How many D prospects jump straight into the NHL compared to wingers?  Ask this question again in a couple years. Benson looks good, but so does Willander. PA said that he was higher on their board and that he was the BPA (in my humble opinion the only way to go) This being said if they were extremely close and had a hard time deciding which of the two to take I will always choose a big RHD over a small winger. Small skilled wingers are a lot easier to come by than big D men on that side. It’s the same with centers. It’s not about organizational need it’s about long term value. Let’s say Benson turns into a solid top 6 NHL level and Willander turns into a solid top 4 RHD. Which one holds more trade value?  Willander does, hands down. Lets just hope that the development continues and PA was right. 

[wai_lai416]

it's a case of BPA vs positional need.. we drafted Willander so therefore we are going to hype him and pump him up to be this guaranteed top 2 pairing defenceman QH's future partner.. but outside of Craig Button.. isn't willander ranked 20+ in almost every single ranking? willander average rank is 26 benson average rank is 5 in the final ranking across 13 different ranking board.. personally for me i would have went for the BPA especially after the juolevi fiasco where we went for positional need over the BPA and boy did it ever backfired spectacularly.. and you guys are complaining about small skilled forwards and how we shouldn't draft them.. so does that mean you'd pass on bedard too because he's a small skilled forward? Willander is ranked 8 by button and he's ranked in the 20+ in 10 other ranking board.. 

 

as for our strength in middle 6 wingers.. sure we have plenty of middle 6 wingers that we are trying to get rid.. but none of them are top line talent.. and in 1 or 2 years time.. theres a chance all of them won't even be in a canucks uniform.. so much for the strength eh? we have no one in the system currently shown they are capable of being a top 2 line winger.. maybe klimovich but he hasn't really shown anything in preseason and maybe lekkierimaki one day.. Garland whom we are actively trying to move.. Beauvillier who'll likely be gone at the TDL.. Boeser depending on this season might be gone by next TDL... with canucks track record of properly developing defenseman.. i rather take a gamble on Benson and do what JR/PA is doing buy/trade for developed defenceman unless that defenceman is BPA which willander is not and drafted like 15 spots over his average ranking.

[Hammertime]

11 hours ago, Hogs and Podz said:

Forward.... Defenseman.  Oranges... Apples.

Short-term vs long-term.

Love Willander, love Benson too.  Both will be great but for Vancouver, no question Willander was the best pick in the long run.

But looks legit very good too. 

[HorvatToBaertschi]

11 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

it's a case of BPA vs positional need.. we drafted Willander so therefore we are going to hype him and pump him up to be this guaranteed top 2 pairing defenceman QH's future partner.. but outside of Craig Button.. isn't willander ranked 20+ in almost every single ranking? willander average rank is 26 benson average rank is 5 in the final ranking across 13 different ranking board.. personally for me i would have went for the BPA especially after the juolevi fiasco where we went for positional need over the BPA and boy did it ever backfired spectacularly.. and you guys are complaining about small skilled forwards and how we shouldn't draft them.. so does that mean you'd pass on bedard too because he's a small skilled forward? Willander is ranked 8 by button and he's ranked in the 20+ in 10 other ranking board.. 

 

as for our strength in middle 6 wingers.. sure we have plenty of middle 6 wingers that we are trying to get rid.. but none of them are top line talent.. and in 1 or 2 years time.. theres a chance all of them won't even be in a canucks uniform.. so much for the strength eh? we have no one in the system currently shown they are capable of being a top 2 line winger.. maybe klimovich but he hasn't really shown anything in preseason and maybe lekkierimaki one day.. Garland whom we are actively trying to move.. Beauvillier who'll likely be gone at the TDL.. Boeser depending on this season might be gone by next TDL... with canucks track record of properly developing defenseman.. i rather take a gamble on Benson and do what JR/PA is doing buy/trade for developed defenceman unless that defenceman is BPA which willander is not and drafted like 15 spots over his average ranking.

Kuzmenko, Boeser and Miller are all top line wingers that we have as of right now. We're flooded with options at those positions, and have 0 need. We've needed a RHD since Bieksa left the team. Easiest decision PA and JR could make on draft day. Don't forget, only 2 teams had Pettersson in their top 10 on draft day. It's a crapshoot, go with the player your gut tells you to take. 

[MikeyD]

18 hours ago, BlockerHigh said:

When you look at our prospect pool and system, do we need more big RD who can skate and move the puck? Or more small scoring wingers? How do you win in hockey? With a bunch of little guys who put up points in Junior? Or a TEAM which (ALL cup winners) has a big strong D? Scoring is not our problem, nor is it a problem in our prospect pool.

I think we all know the answer dude.

So hypothetically speaking, you end up with a guy like Brad Marchand, you'd pass up on that easily? 

 

He's a prospect with the best passing metrics since McDavid for junior, has the work rate of the best NHL players in the league and a two-way game that rivals guys like Pettersson. Obviously there's no guarantee, but at what point if he turns out would you ever be willing to not use the excuse of "still small, can't play"? 

 

Most draft experts preach the idea of BPA (best player available). Most people that finish their drafting careers preach the worst thing to do is draft based on need because too often it results in mediocre talent that ends up being valued at nothing as opposed to having something tangible worth value. We've seen this team already do this consistently over and over again with our scouting department. Would you rather have an undersized forward in Caufield or would you rather have Podkolzin? Podz fills the need, but let's be realistic here. 

 

Only an idiot would say they would prefer Podkolzin over Caufield. At least if you need to fill a positional need you could trade Caufield to obtain that. 

[Alflives]

31 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

So hypothetically speaking, you end up with a guy like Brad Marchand, you'd pass up on that easily? 

 

He's a prospect with the best passing metrics since McDavid for junior, has the work rate of the best NHL players in the league and a two-way game that rivals guys like Pettersson. Obviously there's no guarantee, but at what point if he turns out would you ever be willing to not use the excuse of "still small, can't play"? 

 

Most draft experts preach the idea of BPA (best player available). Most people that finish their drafting careers preach the worst thing to do is draft based on need because too often it results in mediocre talent that ends up being valued at nothing as opposed to having something tangible worth value. We've seen this team already do this consistently over and over again with our scouting department. Would you rather have an undersized forward in Caufield or would you rather have Podkolzin? Podz fills the need, but let's be realistic here. 

 

Only an idiot would say they would prefer Podkolzin over Caufield. At least if you need to fill a positional need you could trade Caufield to obtain that. 

Might Mouse plays for a hated team. He’s a dirty little cheese eater! 

[wai_lai416]

39 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Kuzmenko, Boeser and Miller are all top line wingers that we have as of right now. We're flooded with options at those positions, and have 0 need. We've needed a RHD since Bieksa left the team. Easiest decision PA and JR could make on draft day. Don't forget, only 2 teams had Pettersson in their top 10 on draft day. It's a crapshoot, go with the player your gut tells you to take. 

it doesn't matter only 2 teams have ep in their top 10 at least his average rank is 11 out of all the prospect 7 of the list have him in between 6-8 so he's drafted 6 spots ahead and not completely off the board not like 15 spots ahead.. willander is drafted by the canucks because of their desperate need for a RD not because he's worthy of where he was drafted.. it's almost like the canucks made up their mind they are drafting a defenceman with their 1st rounder and they'll take whoever's left that's ranked the highest as long as it's within the top 30 and likely won't be around by round 2 literally only button have him ranked high while everyone else mostly agreed he's ranked in the mid 20s. he's going to be a huge gamble and whether or not he pans out.. and chances are he's like 3-4 years away at least. Miller is a winger now just to fit the narative? again kuzmenko and boeser have 2 years left on their contract.. wvery high chance boeser will be gone within the 2 years.. and who knows about kuzmenko depending on how big and how long of a contract he wants.. and by the time willander can even make an impact on the team.. ur so call winger depth Miller with be 34 and who else? boeser 30 kuzmenko 30 assuming they are even still on the team.. if boeser is slow now?? wait till he's 30.. 

[Blue]

Benson Zadina 2.0

[HorvatToBaertschi]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

it doesn't matter only 2 teams have ep in their top 10 at least his average rank is 11 out of all the prospect 7 of the list have him in between 6-8 so he's drafted 6 spots ahead and not completely off the board not like 15 spots ahead.. willander is drafted by the canucks because of their desperate need for a RD not because he's worthy of where he was drafted.. it's almost like the canucks made up their mind they are drafting a defenceman with their 1st rounder and they'll take whoever's left that's ranked the highest as long as it's within the top 30 and likely won't be around by round 2 literally only button have him ranked high while everyone else mostly agreed he's ranked in the mid 20s. he's going to be a huge gamble and whether or not he pans out.. and chances are he's like 3-4 years away at least. Miller is a winger now just to fit the narative? again kuzmenko and boeser have 2 years left on their contract.. wvery high chance boeser will be gone within the 2 years.. and who knows about kuzmenko depending on how big and how long of a contract he wants.. and by the time willander can even make an impact on the team.. ur so call winger depth Miller with be 34 and who else? boeser 30 kuzmenko 30 assuming they are even still on the team.. if boeser is slow now?? wait till he's 30.. 

Holy **** you're a negative nancy. Boeser's flying this preseason. The sky isn't falling. Your counterargument is based off if we lose our 3 top line wingers in the next 2 years...

 

We picked Willander where we did for a reason. There were other RHD's who had a better average draft projection, and we passed on them for a reason. Willander was a solid pick and crying about a 160 lb winger when we have a plethora of wingers, and we've been screaming for a top pairing RHD for a decade, is incredibly weird. There's a reason we passed on the local kid with great skill, and picked a partner for Hughes for the next decade. It's almost as if the draft is a crapshoot and you have to go with your gut, which is what management has been doing consistently since the start of their tenure. 

 

Don't forget that merely 5 years ago, the Red Wings picked the elite skill winger Zadina , projected 3rd overall,over Hughes.... 

Edited October 3, 2023 by HorvatToBaertschi

[BlockerHigh]

6 hours ago, MikeyD said:

So hypothetically speaking, you end up with a guy like Brad Marchand, you'd pass up on that easily? 

 

He's a prospect with the best passing metrics since McDavid for junior, has the work rate of the best NHL players in the league and a two-way game that rivals guys like Pettersson. Obviously there's no guarantee, but at what point if he turns out would you ever be willing to not use the excuse of "still small, can't play"? 

 

Most draft experts preach the idea of BPA (best player available). Most people that finish their drafting careers preach the worst thing to do is draft based on need because too often it results in mediocre talent that ends up being valued at nothing as opposed to having something tangible worth value. We've seen this team already do this consistently over and over again with our scouting department. Would you rather have an undersized forward in Caufield or would you rather have Podkolzin? Podz fills the need, but let's be realistic here. 

 

Only an idiot would say they would prefer Podkolzin over Caufield. At least if you need to fill a positional need you could trade Caufield to obtain that. 

Yes and Marchand and Caufiield aren't outliers? lol.

 

Using the small number of highly successful small players in the league as your defense, is wonderful cherry picking but its not going to win a debate.

For every Marchand or Caufield there are 100's of Hunter Shinkaruks, Bryan Sakics, etc...

 

Here's a tip, you can't tell the future, so when looking at your team, you need to consider what you have a plethora of vs a dearth of and consider it...

 

You say, well you can always trade a player away!

 

Firstly, you are assuming said player is going to pan out. He may not

Second, say if a Benson does pan out and you need a stud RD. Do you think a 40 pt winger is going to get you that? No, you have to then trade the same player that panned out...

 

Anyone who watches and understands hockey can see a few basic things to winning a cup. You need a BIG, MOBILE, defense corps

 

As a result, acquiring BIG MOBILE Dmen, particularly on the right side is very expensive. Most teams who have won, have developed their RD from within. There's a reason, they're hard to find.

Big, tough, great skating and great passing RD are as hard to find as quality centers, probably moreso. You need to consider that.

 

And sorry, Benson has not proven he is even an NHL player yet, so naming Marchand, Caufield as comparables is nonsense.

Edited October 3, 2023 by BlockerHigh

[wai_lai416]

7 hours ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Holy **** you're a negative nancy. Boeser's flying this preseason. The sky isn't falling. Your counterargument is based off if we lose our 3 top line wingers in the next 2 years...

 

We picked Willander where we did for a reason. There were other RHD's who had a better average draft projection, and we passed on them for a reason. Willander was a solid pick and crying about a 160 lb winger when we have a plethora of wingers, and we've been screaming for a top pairing RHD for a decade, is incredibly weird. There's a reason we passed on the local kid with great skill, and picked a partner for Hughes for the next decade. It's almost as if the draft is a crapshoot and you have to go with your gut, which is what management has been doing consistently since the start of their tenure. 

 

Don't forget that merely 5 years ago, the Red Wings picked the elite skill winger Zadina , projected 3rd overall,over Hughes.... 

again redwings ain’t reaching with the willander pick. Zadina is not off the board pick and is ranked higher than Hughes and they are both literally top 10 picks. You keep talking like willander is guaranteed going to be good and 100% Hughes partner . Fact is willander is a late 1st round talent historically late 1st are 2nd 3rd pairing players if they make it to the nhl majority of the time if they make it at all. Do I want willander to succeed? Of coz. But he’s at the very minimum 3 years away. By then wingers are no longer are strength and tbh it never was our strength. Just because you have a bunch of middling wingers that no other team wants doesn’t = strength it’s depth if anything. Most of our wingers outside kuzmenko maybe boeser is a 3rd liner on a lot of teams. Given Canucks history with drafting and their ability to produce players? Ya I rather take a 160lb player with a far higher ceiling and a higher chance to make the nhl. It just shows how much homerism is in play if you think the draft is a crapshoot and benson vs willander is just a crapshoot. If they are so desperate for willander they can trade down.. he’ll more than likely still be there and there’d be plenty of team interested in benson.. and if willander is gone then pick the next defenceman since like u said it’s a crapshoot

[The Duke]

I’m shocked that people actually wanted Benson.  He was my one “please don’t draft.” 

[The Duke]

11 hours ago, MikeyD said:

So hypothetically speaking, you end up with a guy like Brad Marchand, you'd pass up on that easily? 

 

He's a prospect with the best passing metrics since McDavid for junior, has the work rate of the best NHL players in the league and a two-way game that rivals guys like Pettersson. Obviously there's no guarantee, but at what point if he turns out would you ever be willing to not use the excuse of "still small, can't play"? 

 

Most draft experts preach the idea of BPA (best player available). Most people that finish their drafting careers preach the worst thing to do is draft based on need because too often it results in mediocre talent that ends up being valued at nothing as opposed to having something tangible worth value. We've seen this team already do this consistently over and over again with our scouting department. Would you rather have an undersized forward in Caufield or would you rather have Podkolzin? Podz fills the need, but let's be realistic here. 

 

Only an idiot would say they would prefer Podkolzin over Caufield. At least if you need to fill a positional need you could trade Caufield to obtain that. 

Podkolzin was BPA - lots of scouts had him as the 3OA that year and were hesitant only because of the Russian factor. 
 

Re:Caufield I’d rather have Boldy if we’re redoing the Pods pick.

 

I went back 10-15 years and drafted all C and D with our first and second round picks and with a “no smurfs” rule (simply sliding to the next available player if Canucks went with a winger or smaller player), and the results were pretty awesome for the 1st round - nowhere near as good in the 2nd.  
 

Nothing wrong with going big and premium position in the first round in my little experiment.
 

BPA the rest of the way, though.

[MikeyD]

5 hours ago, The Duke said:

I’m shocked that people actually wanted Benson.  He was my one “please don’t draft.” 

The guy who is being argued by fans to make the team out of year one at spot 13 is your "please don't draft"? 

 

On the team with the most stacked prospect pool in the NHL...

 

?????