Hogs and Podz Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 38 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said: I'm man enough to admit it. I had full confidence Joulevi was a top 4 Dman... That makes two of us.... I was so excited that I went to prospects camp in shawnigan lake to watch him specifically. Unfortunately, when I had a chance to meet him, I got a very uncomfortable, awkward even anxious vibe from him. I shrugged it off as just being young and overwhelmed with the newness and expectation if being a 5th oa. Left the camp less excited about him but at the time, still had faith. Same camp, where I met Demko... Totally awesome experience meeting him. It's why he's my favorite canuck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 5 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said: I'm man enough to admit it. I had full confidence Joulevi was a top 4 Dman... Well in all fairness the main reason he didnt pan out, was largely due to health. Multiple knee/back surgeries, then COVID annihilated him. https://canucksarmy.com/news/amp/juolevi-mistakes-season-first-year-nhl-looked-success-2021-review “He was one of our guys who got really sick,” said Benning. “He lost a bunch of weight there in those three weeks. I think he lost 10-15 pounds.” Just another health setback for the guy with the worst luck in the organization. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 On 10/8/2023 at 4:00 PM, WSAcanuck said: So which subsequent GM position does Benning have again? Lol How long ago did Gillis’s contract expire? How many times had he applied or been interviewed and been denied? Benning’s contract expired in 2023 whos had more time to find a job and how many openings have there been the last 5 months, vs the last decade? Remind me again, who held a GM position longer and who was given 2 contract extensions? Also, what changes did PA and JR make through the 2021-22 season? None. What was JR’s response about playoffs going into this past season? Something like… If this group was to not make playoffs it would be a complete disaster? Yea my thoughts exactly. Even this regime stepping in had confidence in the team JB built, so much so that that they doubled down on adding to the team and making short term choices such as the OEL buyout to push for playoffs. They even believe this group isnt far off. Maybe… MAYBE if Pettersson didnt take 44 games to get going in 2021-22, we would have been a playoff team and by maybe I mean we would have definitely been a playoff team. On 10/8/2023 at 4:00 PM, WSAcanuck said: If you directly compare Gillis and Benning on just their skill and overall trade costs of adding depth players around the core then please explain how you don’t think Gillis deserves praise but Benning does? Again Lol Lmao Benning did more than just find depth players. Gillis built mainly a bottom 6. Wow… im so impressed.. As I have said many times on the old forums, I will never blame Gillis for going all in. We all wanted a cup at all costs, we came within 1 game. But I can also understand that left a trail of devastation behind, which most of Benning’s tenure was doing damage control from the cost of failed drafting from 2005-2012 and the cost of going all in. Blaming Benning for having to rebuild an entire core, try to stock the bare cupboards AND expect consistent playoff appearances and contender status in under 8 years is absolutely fucking unrealistically brain dead dumb as fuck. Gillis was brought in to win, he came close, but ultimately failed. Ownership then targeted Benning who was a highly ranked scout back in the day. Gee I wonder why we hired a guy with a scouting background?? Maybe to rebuild??! Linden wanted a full blown rebuild, ownership wanted a stealth rebuild. They did not want to blow it up completely, which even if they did their valuables were….. Tanev. Which gets you what? Mid-late 1st at best. Edler who refused to remove his NMC? Markstrom…??? Good luck moving the twins. Hamhuis if he would waive. Bieksa, Burrows and Hansen got us what again? Benning successfully built the next era of Canucks hockey, which is what he was originally brought in to do. Had it not been for COVID or piss poor performances for exteneded periods of time by some of our star players, we would have most certainly been a playoff team 2 of the last 3 seasons if not all 3. On 10/8/2023 at 4:00 PM, WSAcanuck said: The Ballard trade was not the best but context matters. Hamhuis was not signed at that point. And there was no guarantee he would sign with Van. AV completely miscast Ballard and rendered him redundant in the lineup and didn’t use him to his strengths at all. That was a huge coaching fail that likely cost us the cup after all our D injuries: Hamhuis said told Nashville he wouldnt re-sign. There were rumours swirling long before Hamhuis signed, that he was going to sign in Vancouver. The Ballard trade sucked no matter how you try to move the goal posts. You can argue AV miscast Ballard sure, as I can argue TG miscast Virtanen. As his point production increased, his ice time, offensive zone starts decreased year by year. 18g 18a with under 13mins TOI very little PP time and then the next season its less TOI and more dzone distribution? AV not playing Ballard isnt the reason we lost. Tim Thomas is the reason they won and Luongo sucking is the reason we lost. We out hit, out shot, won more faceoffs, blocked more shots we were ahead in almost every single statistical category except saves and goals. We had 8 fucking power plays in game 3 to Bostons 4. They scored 2 shorties and 2 PPGs we had 0 PPGs. Blame the guy in net and the guys on the ice who allowed 2 shorties. We got outscored something like 23-8 in that best of 7. Lmfao Ballard was not the reason we lost. On 10/8/2023 at 4:00 PM, WSAcanuck said: Benning didn’t start with a depleted roster. He would never have got the job if he didn’t agree like the stubborn owners to refuse a rebuild. I won’t argue that Benning’s impact on the team is huge. It’s just huge in a negative way on pretty much the whole organization. Old and depleted Twins 34 Burrows 33 Bieksa 33 Higgins 31 pure shit Eddie Lack lol Santorelli Dalpe Stanton Booth Diaz Weber Matthias Like how long shall I continue on? By you saying Bennings impact on the future is huge in a negative way, thats like saying fuck you Burke and Nonis for the Twins, Burrows, Edler, Kesler and Luongo. EP, QH, BB6, Demmer and Millsy are essentially the equivalent of those players. How well did that pan out for us years down the road? Just goes to show how clueless you really are. On 10/8/2023 at 4:05 PM, WSAcanuck said: He traded McCann plus for Gudbranson so apparently even he thought he sucked at drafting. Boeser at 23 was a good pick but it’s not like he is an elite level player. With even average drafting by Benning and not trading picks for garbage the team would be in a way better position now. Gudbranson was an absolute beast for Florida and was an animal in the playoffs. First of all he was acquired in rebuilding years, second of all he missed a full seasons worth of games in his first 2 seasons with Vancouver due to injuries/surgery. As for McCunt, follow his postage stamps and watch his ever decreasing value to the point Toronto PAID to give him away for free. The kid was clearly a cancer. Hey with anything but zero fucking drafting abilities by Gillis, we would have been in a much better position today if it werent for Gillis’s inability to draft or develop anything outside of Horvat and Hutton lmao. Lets just look at the last few eras of canuck hockey Bure/Mogilny/Linden->WCE->Twins->Petterson/Hughes Nonis and Gillis had virtually zero positive impact on the future. Be thankful Benning was here to build a new core. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PureQuickness Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 18 hours ago, AnthonyG said: Well in all fairness the main reason he didnt pan out, was largely due to health. Multiple knee/back surgeries, then COVID annihilated him. https://canucksarmy.com/news/amp/juolevi-mistakes-season-first-year-nhl-looked-success-2021-review “He was one of our guys who got really sick,” said Benning. “He lost a bunch of weight there in those three weeks. I think he lost 10-15 pounds.” Just another health setback for the guy with the worst luck in the organization. There's too much hate and historical revisionism with this pick. Juolevi WAS a good pick. He WAS listed as one of the players to be drafted in the top 10. There's evidence that can prove this, such as here: http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016/NHL-Draft-Profiles/Olli-Juolevi Craig Button, specifically say he was # 7. Had Juolevi panned out, he would've been a SOLID defenseman to play. Alas, we have a very unlucky organization. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honky Cat Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 On 10/5/2023 at 9:46 AM, Devron said: Joulevi wasn’t a great pick but I do think injuries played a big part Maybe. I recall him not looking good (pre injuries) in his first young stars tournament in Penticton. Got turnstiled on a regular basis. Didn't read the game very well either, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSAcanuck Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, AnthonyG said: How long ago did Gillis’s contract expire? How many times had he applied or been interviewed and been denied? Benning’s contract expired in 2023 whos had more time to find a job and how many openings have there been the last 5 months, vs the last decade? Remind me again, who held a GM position longer and who was given 2 contract extensions? Also, what changes did PA and JR make through the 2021-22 season? None. What was JR’s response about playoffs going into this past season? Something like… If this group was to not make playoffs it would be a complete disaster? Yea my thoughts exactly. Even this regime stepping in had confidence in the team JB built, so much so that that they doubled down on adding to the team and making short term choices such as the OEL buyout to push for playoffs. They even believe this group isnt far off. Maybe… MAYBE if Pettersson didnt take 44 games to get going in 2021-22, we would have been a playoff team and by maybe I mean we would have definitely been a playoff team. Lmao Benning did more than just find depth players. Gillis built mainly a bottom 6. Wow… im so impressed.. As I have said many times on the old forums, I will never blame Gillis for going all in. We all wanted a cup at all costs, we came within 1 game. But I can also understand that left a trail of devastation behind, which most of Benning’s tenure was doing damage control from the cost of failed drafting from 2005-2012 and the cost of going all in. Blaming Benning for having to rebuild an entire core, try to stock the bare cupboards AND expect consistent playoff appearances and contender status in under 8 years is absolutely fucking unrealistically brain dead dumb as fuck. Gillis was brought in to win, he came close, but ultimately failed. Ownership then targeted Benning who was a highly ranked scout back in the day. Gee I wonder why we hired a guy with a scouting background?? Maybe to rebuild??! Linden wanted a full blown rebuild, ownership wanted a stealth rebuild. They did not want to blow it up completely, which even if they did their valuables were….. Tanev. Which gets you what? Mid-late 1st at best. Edler who refused to remove his NMC? Markstrom…??? Good luck moving the twins. Hamhuis if he would waive. Bieksa, Burrows and Hansen got us what again? Benning successfully built the next era of Canucks hockey, which is what he was originally brought in to do. Had it not been for COVID or piss poor performances for exteneded periods of time by some of our star players, we would have most certainly been a playoff team 2 of the last 3 seasons if not all 3. Hamhuis said told Nashville he wouldnt re-sign. There were rumours swirling long before Hamhuis signed, that he was going to sign in Vancouver. The Ballard trade sucked no matter how you try to move the goal posts. You can argue AV miscast Ballard sure, as I can argue TG miscast Virtanen. As his point production increased, his ice time, offensive zone starts decreased year by year. 18g 18a with under 13mins TOI very little PP time and then the next season its less TOI and more dzone distribution? AV not playing Ballard isnt the reason we lost. Tim Thomas is the reason they won and Luongo sucking is the reason we lost. We out hit, out shot, won more faceoffs, blocked more shots we were ahead in almost every single statistical category except saves and goals. We had 8 fucking power plays in game 3 to Bostons 4. They scored 2 shorties and 2 PPGs we had 0 PPGs. Blame the guy in net and the guys on the ice who allowed 2 shorties. We got outscored something like 23-8 in that best of 7. Lmfao Ballard was not the reason we lost. Old and depleted Twins 34 Burrows 33 Bieksa 33 Higgins 31 pure shit Eddie Lack lol Santorelli Dalpe Stanton Booth Diaz Weber Matthias Like how long shall I continue on? By you saying Bennings impact on the future is huge in a negative way, thats like saying fuck you Burke and Nonis for the Twins, Burrows, Edler, Kesler and Luongo. EP, QH, BB6, Demmer and Millsy are essentially the equivalent of those players. How well did that pan out for us years down the road? Just goes to show how clueless you really are. Gudbranson was an absolute beast for Florida and was an animal in the playoffs. First of all he was acquired in rebuilding years, second of all he missed a full seasons worth of games in his first 2 seasons with Vancouver due to injuries/surgery. As for McCunt, follow his postage stamps and watch his ever decreasing value to the point Toronto PAID to give him away for free. The kid was clearly a cancer. Hey with anything but zero fucking drafting abilities by Gillis, we would have been in a much better position today if it werent for Gillis’s inability to draft or develop anything outside of Horvat and Hutton lmao. Lets just look at the last few eras of canuck hockey Bure/Mogilny/Linden->WCE->Twins->Petterson/Hughes Nonis and Gillis had virtually zero positive impact on the future. Be thankful Benning was here to build a new core. Holy fuck are you actually Jim Benning? Cause even he probably doesn’t think he was as perfect as you do. We can agree to disagree. You do realize that the only reason Benning got to draft Petterssen and Hughes was because he sucked so bad at what he was trying to do which was rebuild on the fly, right? Not to mention whiffing on or giving up on every other 1st round pick he made. Ya I think the future would have been better if he could hit on or keep top 10 picks. Gillis = 2 presidents trophies and 1 win away from a Stanley cup Benning = almost a decade of futility all while being a cap ceiling team and not much of a farm system left behind. It’s not hard to tell who achieved more. PA and JR didn’t hang onto Benning’s team because they wanted to. They had no choice. Edited October 11, 2023 by WSAcanuck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 14 minutes ago, WSAcanuck said: Holy fuck are you actually Jim Benning? Cause even he probably doesn’t think he was as perfect as you do. We can agree to disagree. You do realize that the only reason Benning got to draft Petterssen and Hughes was because he sucked so bad at what he was trying to do which was rebuild on the fly, right? Not to mention whiffing on or giving up on every other 1st round pick he made. Ya I think the future would have been better if he could hit on or keep top 10 picks. Gillis = 2 presidents trophies and 1 win away from a Stanley cup Benning = almost a decade of futility all while being a cap ceiling team and not much of a farm system left behind. It’s not hard to tell who achieved more. PA and JR didn’t hang onto Benning’s team because they wanted to. They had no choice. Gillis dat you? keep stroking yourself to Gillasses “accomplishments” hmm he had nothing to do with Daniel Henrik Burrows Kesler Hansen Raymond Bieksa Edler Salo Luongo Schneider Gillis basically gave the team a pedicure. Gillis = no farm system behind Kinda hard to fill a farm when you have to rebuild a team first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekker Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Honky Cat said: Maybe. I recall him not looking good (pre injuries) in his first young stars tournament in Penticton. Got turnstiled on a regular basis. Didn't read the game very well either, Absolutely. The Young Guns is where I first watched OJ live. I left the game very disappointed. What you said, plus weak as anything. Edited October 11, 2023 by Rekker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4ZZY Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 41 minutes ago, AnthonyG said: Gillis dat you? keep stroking yourself to Gillasses “accomplishments” hmm he had nothing to do with Daniel Henrik Burrows Kesler Hansen Raymond Bieksa Edler Salo Luongo Schneider Gillis basically gave the team a pedicure. Gillis = no farm system behind Kinda hard to fill a farm when you have to rebuild a team first That's true that every GM inherits something from the previous GM. That's just the way it is. Gillis was shit when it came to development and drafting. I think the only player really that Benning inherited from Gillis was Horvat, and he's not here anymore. That list is a the core that Nonis/Burke drafted and developed when they were both here. Gillis came and he tweaked that team. He did add pieces to compliment that core, and that's not necessarily an easy thing to do either. Gillis got the right players at the right time, for our Cup run. Unfortunately, we fell a tad short. Benning, for me, as someone who was supposedly tagged as a "super scout" - he missed quite a bit with the selection. Juolevi was a miss (though, you could argue that he could've been a good player, the reality is that he's a bust). There were better players there at where we were picking. He wasn't even a RHD to begin with. If he was, that would have made more sense to draft, because RHD's are generally more appealing as players and rare to find, let alone impossible to trade for (without it being a fucking haul). Virtanen was the other miss. McCann was another one (I think Pastrnak was right after wasn't he?). The argument could be made that yes, Benning missed, but so did the other teams that made their selections. But we're not talking about those other teams. I am sure their fan base is nuts about their management teams missing out on the same players that we did. The reality is that Benning was brought in as supposedly coming from a scouting background, and that he was "apparently" very good at. I'm not saying that he's never hit on his picks. He's had some great selections - Demko, Petey, Hughes - basically our core right there. So Benning's given us that. But we've also been in a decades worth of just dark years, and Benning has to take responsibility for that because he was the GM at the time. I remember a session with the media where he was famously quoted as saying "we ran out of time" - WHAT? Who says this? This is first and foremost an unprofessional thing to say publicly, let alone admit. It made him look even more incompetent sadly. Basically lost the trust of the fans after this, and media was poking fun of it as well. Was Benning all bad? No. He was not. But it certainly feels like there was more misses and losses during his time as GM. He is famous for bringing the "sea of granlunds" - Linden Vey, Bärtschi (who was decent, I'll admit; but the contract given to him was not), etc. The list of players he brought in was more bad than good. The jury is still out with Allvin and Rutherford. But I also feel bad for them, because I don't think they knew or understood this market isn't Pittsburgh. We're smarter and mor obsessed with hockey than Pitts is. That's Steelers country. This is Canucks country. Canucks are king here. Don't care if the Whitecaps win the MLS Cup, the Canucks will be the talk of the town the next day. Allvin and Rutherford inherited Benning's blunders. Did they inherit his core? Yes, of course. But they were also handcuffed with moving the horrid contracts that plagued this team. They had no choice but to buy out OEL if they wanted to compete this year. OEL was Benning's trade, and that one, in my opinion, was the worse, even if he rebounds in Florida (which I hope he does), it's still bad bad trade. That handcuffed this team financially where literally Rutherford and Allvin just had to bite the bullet and wait until it was time to buy out. Other contracts they had to wait out - like Myers. He won't be back, and if he is coming back, he's coming back at a significant discount here. What about the Loui Ericksson contract? Good Lord. 6 years for 6M. After the 1st game, he was untradeable. You see the pattern here? Allvin and Rutherford could not get out of those deals without attaching 1st round picks to them. What are they to do? If they dealt those 1st round picks, they'd be crucified at this market, but it would've given them cap relief, which they still barely have today. I'm not saying that Allvin and Rutherford is perfect. They also signed Miller to that massive deal instead of Bo. Was that the wrong move? Time will tell, but I can tell you that I ain't a fan of that move. Signing players past their prime years - Miller isn't even (in my books) elite. He's a very good player, but generally, players will decline when it comes to their hands and their offense tends to dry up the older they get. So will we have another anchor contract, someone earning 8M, while producing 40 points? I don't like Benning for the very reasons I've listed, but he was also the GM when this club could have been much better. 1 playoff appearance in the shortened season, in 8 years. That right there, says it all. Nobody was happy to be here, a lot of the players were miserable, and Benning also made miscalculated moves. Let Tanev walk (this was a huge mistake). There was a leadership that was present, and when some of those players were let go (for nothing, mind you), I think it did affect the room and some of the younger players as well - namely Petey and Hughes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSAcanuck Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, AnthonyG said: Gillis dat you? keep stroking yourself to Gillasses “accomplishments” hmm he had nothing to do with Daniel Henrik Burrows Kesler Hansen Raymond Bieksa Edler Salo Luongo Schneider Gillis basically gave the team a pedicure. Gillis = no farm system behind Kinda hard to fill a farm when you have to rebuild a team first Here’s a news flash. I hated the last few years of Gillis tenure. I regularly called for it to be his time to go. He was never my favourite GM and I found him to be arrogant. Go ahead, ask around. I’m sure there are plenty of old school guys on here who remember my thoughts on Gillis at the end. But the results speak for themselves. The reality is that to be a consistent top team in the league you need depth players that add a positive impact. No one can argue that Gillis made a lot of really good moves for complimentary players that almost got us a cup. Remember that the core group struggled a lot in the playoffs prior to that too so his moves obviously had a positive impact. Benning drafted a handful of good players, made a couple of good trades and pretty much everything else he did blew up in his face. A consistent winning team leaving a bare farm is way different than a consistent bottom feeder team leaving a bare farm. Benning was the worst GM in our history and with our history that’s saying something. Edited October 11, 2023 by WSAcanuck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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