[GDT/PGT] Vancouver Canucks vs Calgary Flames at Rogers Arena, Oct 6, 2023, 7pm PDT

[stawns]

3 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

I've liked Cole so far, better skater than I thought & a smart player. Also willing to sacrifice his body, and seems like a great leader.

 

Opening night Wed lets go! Time to get back in the playoffs & beyond! 

He's been better than Soucy, which has surprised most I think.

[Hairy Kneel]

[Ghostsof1915]

6 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

Basically it was inevitable that Demko was going to replace Markstrom. It's how Benning handled the cap and screwed up letting players just walk.

 

[Hairy Kneel]

7 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Basically it was inevitable that Demko was going to replace Markstrom. It's how Benning handled the cap and screwed up letting players just walk.

 

Plus it was the expansion draft and we weren't able to protect both. 

[Goal_thecup]

5 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Opening night Wed lets go! Time to get back in the playoffs & beyond! 

 

One step beyond?

Why that is Madness!!

 

(Cheers Smash!)

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

He's been better than Soucy, which has surprised most I think.

 

Cole is a very strong veteran presence. He is incredibly articulate and seems to contribute to playing on winning hockey teams. Great pickup. Blueger is also a tremendous signing. I love the way both of those two play the game. Really looking forward to watching this team play with a defensive structure this year. Last year was so painful watching odd man rush after odd man rush. I think it will greatly help Quinn to have 2 guys in Cole and Hronek that can be depended on to help carry the load on their own as well.

[Canuckle]

2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Basically it was inevitable that Demko was going to replace Markstrom. It's how Benning handled the cap and screwed up letting players just walk.

 

Handle.. the cap? You mean the flat cap from a pandemic nobody knew was going to happen? "How dare you not see a pandemic world wide shutdown and flat cap coming, stupid Benning!!"

 

If they had previous knowledge that would happen MANY teams and general managers would chosen to do things differently. Even Jim Rutherford mentioned this in the recent presser.

[-dlc-]

9 hours ago, Lemon Face said:

Deb.I hope Miller is ok

Oh he definitely is ok. 

[-dlc-]

10 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

anyone know what his injury status is? 

 

Still nothing beyond Tocchet's original "don't think it's serious".

 

They sure keep their cards close to their chests these days. 

[Gawdzukes]

20 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Handle.. the cap? You mean the flat cap from a pandemic nobody knew was going to happen? "How dare you not see a pandemic world wide shutdown and flat cap coming, stupid Benning!!"

 

If they had previous knowledge that would happen MANY teams and general managers would chosen to do things differently. Even Jim Rutherford mentioned this in the recent presser.

 

He was dumb with the cap though pandemic or not. When you're a bottom half team you shouldn't be spending to the cap limit every year and signing redundant players who you can't move on from when you actually figure out what your team is lacking. Incredibly short-sighted in that regard.

 

Other teams in a similar position had no where near the cap problems we do. I liked Benning actually but he was brutal in that regard.

[Canuckle]

28 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

He was dumb with the cap though pandemic or not. When you're a bottom half team you shouldn't be spending to the cap limit every year and signing redundant players who you can't move on from when you actually figure out what your team is lacking. Incredibly short-sighted in that regard.

 

Other teams in a similar position had no where near the cap problems we do. I liked Benning actually but he was brutal in that regard.

It was and wasn't short-sighted. It's all about the goals of doing it that way.

 

Enter: Ownership and business

 

As a fan I would have preferred the "tank" style rebuild as it would arguably put them better off long term.

 

BUT the organization chose to stay competitive to keep asses in the seats, eyeballs on the TV, advertising dollars rolling in, community partners seeing returns from the Aquilini Investment Group (or at least limiting losses.) Sure, the team still sucked, but they still won as many games as they lost keeping  interest higher than it would otherwise have been. Ticket sales plummeted during the rebuild, no surprise. And getting shelled 6-1 every night would have been even worse for the bottomline.

 

There's simply more to this stuff than just "Benning did bad contract, he bad." It's about the underlying why of things, you know?

 

Here's an interview with former Canucks AGM Chris Gear discussing what I'm getting at:  (I skipped to the relevant section.)

 

 

 

But to get back to the original point, if teams knew, Benning included, that there was going to be a flat cap these years they would not have made the deals the made. For example Tyler Myers. If they had that foreknowledge would they give him 6 milll a year? Of course not. The financial projections change.

 

Sure, some would still be signed for the purpose of "staying competitive" to fill the needs of the business, but it wouldn't be exactly the same cap constraints in the same way for the same reasons.

 

Blaming Benning for the cap is and always will be mostly low hanging fruit. He's the perfect scapegoat, afterall. And if he didn't do it, Aqua would have fired him and found someone else to do what they wanted. See: Trevor Linden.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Canuckle
grammar

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

It was and wasn't short-sighted. It's all about the goals of doing it that way.

 

Enter: Ownership and business

 

As a fan I would have preferred the "tank" style rebuild as it would arguably put them better off long term.

 

BUT the organization chose to stay competitive to keep asses in the seats, eyeballs on the TV, advertising dollars rolling in, community partners seeing returns from the Aquilini Investment Group. Sure, the team still sucked, but they would still win as many games as they would lose to keep interest higher than it would otherwise have been. Ticket sales plummeted during the rebuild. No surprise. and getting shelled 6-1 every night would have been even worse.

 

There's more to this shit that just "Benning did bad contract, he bad."

 

It's about the underlying why of things.

 

Here's an interview with former Canucks AGM Chris Gear discussing what I'm getting at:  (I skipped to the relevant section.)

 

 

 

But to get back to the original point, if teams knew, Benning included, that there was going to be a flat cap these years they would not have made the deals the made. For example Tyler Myers. If they had that foreknowledge would they give him 6 milll a year? Of course not. The financial projections change.

 

Sure, some would still be signed for the purpose of "staying competitive" to fill the needs of the business, but it wouldn't be exactly the same cap constraints in the same way for the same reasons.

 

Blaming Benning for the cap is and always will be mostly low hanging fruit. He's the perfect scapegoat, afterall. And if he didn't do it, Aqua would have fired him and found someone else to do what they wanted. See: Trevor Linden.

 

I get what you're saying and I do appreciate the flat cap definitely screwed with the better of intentions. Sorry I don't have time to watch the video right now but I will after football. I also would have liked a traditional rebuild as it was in the natural cycle of things. I also understand why they didn't though. We got pretty lucky/fortunate though with Petterson, Demko, and Hughes anyway.

 

I'am not going for the low hanging fruit here as I do legitimately have a problem with the way he was spending to the cap limit flat or not. For me this was not any more clear when he re-signed Pearson. Which was during the flat cap and something he should have avoided. Pearson was a good player and the money was decent but it was a terrible decision hockey wise. The rumors were that he was wanted by several Canadian teams that year for their playoff runs. Instead of securing a good draft pick we threw away $3.25 mil of wasted cap. He already knew it was a flat cap and should have clearly not kept on spending money in that environment with an already crappy team. Then he compounded it with that awful Arizona trade, and even made another useless $2.65 mil signing with Dickinson. A role Pearson was already redundant in and should have been earmarked for prospects. It was very poor decision making on his part.

 

My biggest problem with this is no matter how you hope everyone reaches every potential you sign them for it's inevitable that their will be some shortcomings. This is what you save cap space for. Once your team is close enough you can then spend to the cap trying to obtain the missing pieces. We couldn't and we still can't and we can see what that has done to this team not able to address obvious holes in the line-up because we're pushed up against the cap. Here we are 3 years after the Pearson signing with one RFA year left on Petterson. Our focus should have been on this year all along.

 

This is something Canadian teams have done often in the past to their own downfall. It's refreshing to see teams like Ottawa and Montreal embrace a proper rebuild (or at least focus on the future) when their cycles demanded it. Look at a a team like Winnipeg. They are admirable in that they always seem to put out a good team but they also end up a lot like us. Calgary as well. Stuck in the middle without many options to improve.

 

Thanks for the vid. I'll make sure I watch it later.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[IBatch]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:29 AM, -dlc- said:

My only complaint about Myers is I feel like he focuses (at times) too much on the offensive side of things. He likes/wants to score...which is great. Except when he zings a puck  40' wide of the net and it ricochets around the boards and out and then he's scrambling. 

 

I do like him and, quite honestly, we'd be worse without him. But some of his decisions leave me wondering....why???

 

I did love that he got a goal but I really feel like he thinks he's a forward at times. On the plus side, I haven't seen him throwing his big body onto the ice like a speed bump. That's ok on occasion when needed, but not as a go to defensive play. When it works, great...when it doesn't, it makes him ineffective and leaves him out of the play completely.

Yep.  And he's a big body.   Pretty sure we will see a better Myers not having to do the top four duties this year.   And also that his aggressiveness  is toned down in the regular season.   Hope we get to see him and Soucy this post season. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by IBatch

[N4ZZY]

On 10/8/2023 at 11:39 AM, -dlc- said:

Still nothing beyond Tocchet's original "don't think it's serious".

 

They sure keep their cards close to their chests these days. 

They sure do. 

 

Well, it feels like Soucy isn't going to be in the opening line up come Wednesday. 

 

Who's taking his place then if they're not adding or claiming anyone on the waiver wire? 

 

[N4ZZY]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:37 PM, Gawdzukes said:

 

I get what you're saying and I do appreciate the flat cap definitely screwed with the better of intentions. Sorry I don't have time to watch the video right now but I will after football. I also would have liked a traditional rebuild as it was in the natural cycle of things. I also understand why they didn't though. We got pretty lucky/fortunate though with Petterson, Demko, and Hughes anyway.

 

I'am not going for the low hanging fruit here as I do legitimately have a problem with the way he was spending to the cap limit flat or not. For me this was not any more clear when he re-signed Pearson. Which was during the flat cap and something he should have avoided. Pearson was a good player and the money was decent but it was a terrible decision hockey wise. The rumors were that he was wanted by several Canadian teams that year for their playoff runs. Instead of securing a good draft pick we threw away $3.25 mil of wasted cap. He already knew it was a flat cap and should have clearly not kept on spending money in that environment with an already crappy team. Then he compounded it with that awful Arizona trade, and even made another useless $2.65 mil signing with Dickinson. A role Pearson was already redundant in and should have been earmarked for prospects. It was very poor decision making on his part.

 

My biggest problem with this is no matter how you hope everyone reaches every potential you sign them for it's inevitable that their will be some shortcomings. This is what you save cap space for. Once your team is close enough you can then spend to the cap trying to obtain the missing pieces. We couldn't and we still can't and we can see what that has done to this team not able to address obvious holes in the line-up because we're pushed up against the cap. Here we are 3 years after the Pearson signing with one RFA year left on Petterson. Our focus should have been on this year all along.

 

This is something Canadian teams have done often in the past to their own downfall. It's refreshing to see teams like Ottawa and Montreal embrace a proper rebuild (or at least focus on the future) when their cycles demanded it. Look at a a team like Winnipeg. They are admirable in that they always seem to put out a good team but they also end up a lot like us. Calgary as well. Stuck in the middle without many options to improve.

 

Thanks for the vid. I'll make sure I watch it later.

And if Montréal and Ottawa can do it, why can't Vancouver do a proper rebuild? It's not the management, it comes to down to ownership time after time. At the end of the day, if the franchise going to go through a "proper" rebuild, it has to get the green light from ownership. And we haven't had a proper rebuild, at least not in the last decade. I mean, Benning botched his rebuild attempt, and set us back, or at the very least, has fucked us. His deals still haunt this franchise. 

 

 

[N4ZZY]

On 10/8/2023 at 12:20 PM, Canuckle said:

It was and wasn't short-sighted. It's all about the goals of doing it that way.

 

Enter: Ownership and business

 

As a fan I would have preferred the "tank" style rebuild as it would arguably put them better off long term.

 

BUT the organization chose to stay competitive to keep asses in the seats, eyeballs on the TV, advertising dollars rolling in, community partners seeing returns from the Aquilini Investment Group (or at least limiting losses.) Sure, the team still sucked, but they still won as many games as they lost keeping  interest higher than it would otherwise have been. Ticket sales plummeted during the rebuild, no surprise. And getting shelled 6-1 every night would have been even worse for the bottomline.

 

There's simply more to this stuff than just "Benning did bad contract, he bad." It's about the underlying why of things, you know?

 

Here's an interview with former Canucks AGM Chris Gear discussing what I'm getting at:  (I skipped to the relevant section.)

 

 

 

But to get back to the original point, if teams knew, Benning included, that there was going to be a flat cap these years they would not have made the deals the made. For example Tyler Myers. If they had that foreknowledge would they give him 6 milll a year? Of course not. The financial projections change.

 

Sure, some would still be signed for the purpose of "staying competitive" to fill the needs of the business, but it wouldn't be exactly the same cap constraints in the same way for the same reasons.

 

Blaming Benning for the cap is and always will be mostly low hanging fruit. He's the perfect scapegoat, afterall. And if he didn't do it, Aqua would have fired him and found someone else to do what they wanted. See: Trevor Linden.

Aquilini the worst GM. 

 

Let the GM do his job for crying out loud, rather than try to play GM. Where has that left this franchise since Francesco has been doing that? 

 

[Canuckle]

10 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Aquilini the worst GM. 

 

Let the GM do his job for crying out loud, rather than try to play GM. Where has that left this franchise since Francesco has been doing that? 

 

 

And it's tough.  Like the reality of business, at the same time exactly. Let the GM fo their jobs. And the common criticisms toward Benning are so hard to even decipher who's idea was what and given the underlying staying competitive piece how much choice do you have in the first place, you know? But is what it is

 

And to be fair, I wholeheartedly believe those days are over. Rutherford wouldn't stand for meddling like that.  He's old as fuck and doesn't have time for BS. He'd quit at the drop of a hat i have no doubt. A man with over 50 years in the biz in virtually every position. Multiple cups. Knows what needs to be done and how to do it. And word is Aqua respects Rutherford to even attempt it anyway.

 

  I'm just glad we're thru the dark times now.  Past is past.   Here and now the team looks good and I'm excited for the future.

[N4ZZY]

On 10/8/2023 at 12:20 PM, Canuckle said:

Blaming Benning for the cap is and always will be mostly low hanging fruit. He's the perfect scapegoat, afterall. And if he didn't do it, Aqua would have fired him and found someone else to do what they wanted. See: Trevor Linden.

so what you're saying is blame the owner. 

 

[N4ZZY]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

I'm just glad we're thru the dark times now.  Past is past.   Here and now the team looks good and I'm excited for the future.

i agree to a degree that the future is bright, but it's contigent on if Petey signs. If he does not, then the future ain't bright. it's only as bright as far as Petey is here and how far he can take the team. If he leaves, no way in hell Hughes remains, Demko, or any of the other players are wanting to go through a rebuild (maybe except Miller). 

 

Benning was the GM. If the roles were all respected, and people were allowed to do their jobs the way they were hired to, it would have fallen at his hand, he's the GM. He makes the final call (pending of course, support from ownership). And if that's true, then man, what a gongshow those years has been. And because of those years under Benning's 'leadership' - this fanbase has trouble believing that any other GM stepping into their role is going to be competent enough to do their job. When Allvin was brought in, there was a lot of suspicion on whether he's just another version of Benning. 

 

It's taken some time, but there's belief that he's a better GM already than Benning was in his entire tenure. So yes, things may be turning the turner slightly. But I'm still unsure where we're at - we're not contenders in the sense that we're not in the upper echelon of the teams in the league. But we don't seem to be bottom feeders entering into this season with the way the roster has been constructed. We're in the merry middle! Often that's the worse place to be unfortunately. I am excited about the season getting started, because you know, Canucks hockey better than no Canucks hockey at all. Let's see how this season unfolds. I'm cautiously hopeful, but I'm not expecting the postseason this year, maybe next year. I'm even nervous about Petey coming back and signing a long term deal. 

 

[Bobby Lou]

8 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

i agree to a degree that the future is bright, but it's contigent on if Petey signs. If he does not, then the future ain't bright. it's only as bright as far as Petey is here

 

While I see the concern (believe me I do I thought the same way for awhile) IF Petey chooses not to sign here then we don't need him.

 

We need leaders that want to be here and elevate those around them to do whatever they have to to maximize their potential. Guys who put a team on their shoulders and do what needs to be done.

 

I in no way think Petey wants out I think he likes being "the guy" here and if he went to a contender they likely already have their guys ...he would be a good add but not "the guy"

 

If he left worst case we blow it up and rebuild properly for once. Petey alone would fetch multiple 1st rounders add in Hughes Demko Kuz sell it to the fans. Most of us have called for it for years.

[Canuckle]

42 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

so what you're saying is blame the owner.

Equal parts ownership and the economic system itself--  The reality of a billion dollar corporation.

 

Speaking of which, I am super interested to see what Fenway Sports decides to do when Sid, Geno, etc. retire and it's time to fully rebuild.

 

Do they stay competitive for the duration like the Canucks did to keep interest high and the money rolling in? Or do they take the longer term tank approach and lose hundreds of millions of dollars. I think I already know the answer to that question though.

 

Aqua was absolutely overlyinvolved in many areas over the years and that's obviously unacceptable, but that path forward with the underlying goals is just a reality of the hockey business, imo.  Sure sucks, but is what it is.

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, N4ZZY said:

i agree to a degree that the future is bright, but it's contigent on if Petey signs. If he does not, then the future ain't bright. it's only as bright as far as Petey is here and how far he can take the team. If he leaves, no way in hell Hughes remains, Demko, or any of the other players are wanting to go through a rebuild (maybe except Miller). 

 

Benning was the GM. If the roles were all respected, and people were allowed to do their jobs the way they were hired to, it would have fallen at his hand, he's the GM. He makes the final call (pending of course, support from ownership). And if that's true, then man, what a gongshow those years has been. And because of those years under Benning's 'leadership' - this fanbase has trouble believing that any other GM stepping into their role is going to be competent enough to do their job. When Allvin was brought in, there was a lot of suspicion on whether he's just another version of Benning. 

 

It's taken some time, but there's belief that he's a better GM already than Benning was in his entire tenure. So yes, things may be turning the turner slightly. But I'm still unsure where we're at - we're not contenders in the sense that we're not in the upper echelon of the teams in the league. But we don't seem to be bottom feeders entering into this season with the way the roster has been constructed. We're in the merry middle! Often that's the worse place to be unfortunately. I am excited about the season getting started, because you know, Canucks hockey better than no Canucks hockey at all. Let's see how this season unfolds. I'm cautiously hopeful, but I'm not expecting the postseason this year, maybe next year. I'm even nervous about Petey coming back and signing a long term deal. 

 

 

I don't think Petey is going anywhere tbh. Doesnt even register as a concern to me... especially seeing the positive changes with the club, front staff, coaches, and especially teammates.  If shit went sideways so hard it's like Boudreau 2 electric Boogaloo then yeah, maybe. But I really don't see that happening.

 

The problem with the blame game on Benning is that the staff had specific direction to "stay competitive." Damn near all those contracts, picks traded away, were all connected to that underlying purpose. Almost like the position at that time was under duress. How much control over a "rebuild" do you really have in that case?  If you listen to the interview with former Canucks AGM Chris Gear he gets into details of why they did what they did at that time: (skipped to the relevant section:

 

And yeah throw anyone in that same position and I have serious doubts it would have been any different for this club at that time.

 

As far as Allvin goes, you could argue the actual GM is Jim Rutherford. It's become somewhat the norm that the President of the club are the ones arranging the deals, but the GMs are the ones pulling the trigger and doing the paperwork. Brendan Shanahan in Toronto, Kyle Dubas in Pittsburgh, etc.

 

I like Patrick Allvin though. I don't really think in terms of better or worse in that sense but i do believe the new front office has basically full carte blanche to do what needs to be done with zero interference from the blueberry man. Just a different situation now.

 

As for season projections, I already bet another user here 100.00 they are making the playoffs.  And as Rutherford stated at the season open presser, if everything goes right (ie. baring major injury to the stars for prolonged periods) they are a playoff team.  I agree with that.

 

Especially if Demko is healthy the whole year (knock on wood.)  That's a game changer.

 

But I certainly understand the skepticism, tempered expectations given the trauma of being a Canucks fan... especially over the past decade. I definitely get it.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Canuckle

[Tusk]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

I don't think Petey is going anywhere tbh. Doesnt even register as a concern... especially seeing the positive changes with the club, front staff, coaches, and especially teammates.  If shit went sideways so hard it's like Boudreau 2 electric Boogaloo then yeah, maybe. But I really don't see that happening.

 

The problem with the blame game on Benning is that the staff had specific direction to "stay competitive." Damn near all those contracts, picks traded away, were all connected to that underlying purpose. Almost like the position at that time was under duress. How much control over a "rebuild" do you really have in that case?  If you listen to the interview with former Canucks AGM Chris Gear he gets into details of why they did what they did at that time: (skipped to the relevant section:

 

And yeah throw anyone in that same position and I have serious doubts it would have been any different for this club at that time.

 

As far as Allvin goes, you could argue the actual GM is Jim Rutherford. It's become somewhat the norm that the President of the club are the ones arranging the deals, but the GMs are the ones pulling the trigger and doing the paperwork. Brendan Shanahan in Toronto, Kyle Dubas in Pittsburgh, etc.

 

I like Patrick Allvin though. I don't really think in terms of better or worse in that sense but i do believe the new front office has basically full carte blanche to do what needs to be done with zero interference from the blueberry man. Just a different situation now.

 

As for projections on this season with this team, I already bet another user here 100.00 they are making the playoffs. And as Rutherford stated at the season open presser, if everything goes right (ie. baring major injury to the stars for prolonged periods) they are a playoff team.  I agree with that.

 

Especially if Demko is healthy the whole year (knock on wood.)  That's a game changer.

 

But I certainly understand the skepticism and tempered expectations given the trauma of being a Canucks fan... especially over the past decade. I definitely get it.

yep what he said times 3 or 4

[Tusk]

1 minute ago, Tusk said:

yep what he said times 3 or 4

at this point i just want to beat Edmonton and Toronto every game. If Bettman lets us do that we will get the Cup

[Tusk]

1 minute ago, Tusk said:

at this point i just want to beat Edmonton and Toronto every game. If Bettman lets us do that we will get the Cup

If we beat edmonton and Toronto every game, the whole NHL scam will be exposed if we dont get the cup