Canuck Surfer Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 20 hours ago, Ilunga said: I just don't think it's right that the Palestinians keep losing land. This is totally true. Yet most Palestinians came to terms & settled in the portion of Palestine that became Transjordan? Clashed looking for 100% of the balance. Many of the displaced took positions trying to raise militancy within what became the Kingdom of Jordan. So were expelled there from Jordan in 1972. At a cost, a loss of life exceeding all conflicts with Israel until Oct 2023. Their militancy was considered an existential risk to power within Jordan. So they took their views to Egypt. Were tossed. For violent activities & civil unrest. Tunisia. Were expelled. And Lebanon. Have been expelled from all three. Except Lebanon; where their brand of militancy found alliance which upset a balance of power that had discovered relative peace. Uncoincidentally, what was once a country with a Constitution built on Multiculturalism. Has had a Christian majority at independence, marginalized. It's portion of population shrink exponentially as these allies sowed violence. Slowly, but surely, there is an effort to purify Lebanon. If we are to condemn philosophically the colonialism of George Bush, Bibi! It's important to recognize the similar, failed to date perhaps, effort of Palestinians? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Super19 said: Seems reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 3 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Seems reasonable. Or speculative 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: This is totally true. Yet most Palestinians came to terms & settled in the portion of Palestine that became Transjordan? Clashed looking for 100% of the balance. Many of the displaced took positions trying to raise militancy within what became the Kingdom of Jordan. So were expelled there from Jordan in 1972. At a cost, a loss of life exceeding all conflicts with Israel until Oct 2023. Their militancy was considered an existential risk to power within Jordan. So they took their views to Egypt. Were tossed. For violent activities & civil unrest. Tunisia. Were expelled. And Lebanon. Have been expelled from all three. Except Lebanon; where their brand of militancy found alliance which upset a balance of power that had discovered relative peace. Uncoincidentally, what was once a country with a Constitution built on Multiculturalism. Has had a Christian majority at independence, marginalized. It's portion of population shrink exponentially as these allies sowed violence. Slowly, but surely, there is an effort to purify Lebanon. If we are to condemn philosophically the colonialism of George Bush, Bibi! It's important to recognize the similar, failed to date perhaps, effort of Palestinians? Dunno how many times I have to say this, I condemn all forms of violence. Now let's look closer at what sort of " identity " Palestinians have in both Israel and Jordan. As the title of the article states Beuracracy, Hypocrisy and the Israel-Palestine Quandary https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/12/09/bureaucracy-hypocrisy-and-the-israel-palestine-quandary/ The Hafrada ID Policies " Hafrada translates to unilateral seperation or unilateral disengagement " Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin pushed for the construction of a physical barrier between Israeli's and Palestinians in the early 1990's. This mentality eventually paved the way for the election of Ehud Barak, who campaigned and won under the slogan, Us here, them there. Barak cemented the Hafrada ID Policies into place " Sound a bit familiar, build the wall, build the wall ! " Today Israel assigns three ID's at birth, blue, green and Jerusalem ID. The Blue ID offers the most permissive freedom of mobility. Blue ID holders are eligible for an Israeli passport (not a travel document) along side their ID. It also means, that by law, that Israel prohibits blue ID holders from entering the Palestinian residential "Zone A". The west bank comprises 3 zones, A, B and C, Palestinian people are usually only allowed to live in zone A. Zone B is the roads and Zone C is comprises Israeli settlements. Essentially the Israeli defence forces, IDF, always control zone B and zone C, because Zone A is under the Jurisdiction of the IDF, their authority stems from military law, not municipal systems that would otherwise that would govern a residential area. There have been cases where the IDF has converted civilian homes into military check points without a warrant and allowed settlements to expand. " The Jerusalem ID is an anomaly. Although it's a blue ID as well no passport accompanies it. The Jerusalem ID is a stand alone travel document. The Jerusalem ID represents east Jerusalem. Despite the relative freedom of mobility that comes with it (one can travel anywhere within Israel and Palestine except the Gaza strip) anyone from east Jerusalem is stateless by default. So if one lived in Jerusalem or (is born in Jerusalem) they can legally transcend the barriers to mobility the majority of Palestinians face. None the less, because of this legal positioning (statelessness, lack of a passport) East Jerusalemites will still need a visa for every other country in the world-which is quite difficult without a passport. It's also worth noting that Palestinians (with a Palestinian ID) who live abroad and have acquired foreign citizenship are legally considered foreigners everywhere except in Israel. The catch 22 is that bearing a Palestinian identity creates a legal precedent for different treatment, significant impacting daily life. " " While all Palestinian ID's are green, not blue, the west bank ID and the Gaza ID come with different obligations. Regarding privileges the west bank ID is more advantageous than the Gaza ID. The west bank ID allows one to move freely throughout the west bank. Likewise, if one wants to go to a settlement, to Jerusalem or the rest of Israel one will need to apply for more permits from the Israeli army. The permit system is a constant dimension of life. Usually people only get either working or visiting or medical permits. The rest? , denied says the diplomat. These permits are issued through a system known as "Tasreeh ". Further because any form of movement is invariably means that one must pass through Israeli territory (ie the roads) residents of Gaza wishing to enter the west bank must obtain two separate permits, one to enter and one to leave. Palestinian individuals wishing to go to Israel must apply for yet another permit, but these are rarely granted except for medical reasons. Even then it may not happen. Due to (Hafrada) seperation policies, the Palestinian people experience varying degrees of mobility. Among them only 12 percent are citizens of Israel (blue ID) who have citizenship but not nationality-which is reserved for Jews only. " Can you keep up with all of this ? Do you get where I am coming from by bringing this up ? Palestinians are stateless https://abcnews.go.com/International/palestinians-stateless-united-longing-liberation-historians/story?id=103899678 " They are stateless, their identity not defined by specific borders, but rather tied together by a collective longing for a place to call home. Their existence has long been traded and transferred by different ruling powers throughout their history, leaving their fate in the balance. " Any back to the original article " The Jordanian Citizenships caste Overlaid atop this Israeli stratification there are three castes of Jordanian citizens. First is the person who lives in the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan and has an Jordanian ID and a Jordanian passport. Second is the Jordanian citizen who lives in the west bank and holds a passport. Recall that until 1967, the west bank was part of Jordan or trans Jordan. It's called the trans Jordan because the river Jordan runs through the middle. In other words the trans Jordan (ie the west bank) is the river bank west of Jordan. That's why it's called the west bank. And so this is full Jordanian citizen who is not living in Jordan Territory because they reside in extra Jordanian territory. The third class of Jordanian citizens is essentially not a citizen. This represents Palestinians who do not hold a Jordanian ID but have a Jordanian passport to travel. An increasing problem over the last decade has been that Jordan has been getting fed up with the hassle of the diplomats point out. But if they take away citizenship from say, an old man. It also means that all of his children and all of his childrens children are stripped of citizenship. So if one person loses a travel document, it means that his 100 relatives and descendants lose it. To give another example, this implies with a Jerusalem ID but actively applying for a Israeli citizenship will forfeit their Jordanian passport or travel document. At this point they will be not only banned from obtaining a Jordanian document, they will also be prohibited from entering the country of Jordan every again. Documentation technicalities can be unimaginably difficult to navigate for families with members who live scattered throughout the region. In the part many people from the west bank married Israeli citizens or Jerusalem ID holders their ID's but now it's becoming much harder the diplomat explains. I know of an incident where the woman was Jordanian and her partner was a Palestinian ID holder in the west bank. They managed to get married, but they didn't see each other for six years. They had to fight for six years for the woman to be able enter the west bank. Not to enter Israel, but the west bank. There have been an increasing number of cases where the Israeli authorities say, you can marry but we don't care. Your partner is not getting an ID. This fragile citizenship status also lends itself to a heavier social narrowing in everything from education to job opportunities to dating. " How would you like to " live " like this ? Stateless and treated like second- third class citizens. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Existential for Israel, dangerous & difficult in many ways; simply a larger clash of cultures? THank you, about to tuck into this little video right now, after a couple roast beef sandwiches, hehehe... I am a bit of a fan of Sam Harris, from his Four Horsemen appearances with some of my other intellectual heroes. Hitchens, Dawkins, et cetera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 This hits close to home: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 3 hours ago, Bob Long said: Or speculative Is that speculative like we don't know for sure they did it? Or speculative like we know for sure that land won't be stolen after the bombing stops? Ballpark it for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 36 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Is that speculative like we don't know for sure they did it? The intention that it was punishment of some kind against Belgium 36 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Or speculative like we know for sure that land won't be stolen after the bombing stops? Ballpark it for me I guess it depends how you view the conflict, and what actually ends up happening. How much of Israel is stolen in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Super19 said: This hits close to home: Is this what they call saying the quiet part out loud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 6 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Is this what they call saying the quiet part out loud? What she said? Well if it is the quiet part out loud, we know there is a lot wrong with what she managed to say in just under a minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 35 minutes ago, Super19 said: What she said? Well if it is the quiet part out loud, we know there is a lot wrong with what she managed to say in just under a minute. Oh right, I must have confused her with the langara instructor that praised the Oct 7 murders. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bob Long said: The intention that it was punishment of some kind against Belgium I guess it depends how you view the conflict, and what actually ends up happening. How much of Israel is stolen in your opinion? How much of Israel is stolen ? That's a question I have for the athiests in this thread. How much of the mythical religious text called the bible do you actually believe is true ? These are the thoughts of Shlomo Sand an Israeli historian https://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel " But during the 1980's an earthquake shook these founding myths. The discoveries made by the " new archaeology" discredited a great exodus in the 13th century BC. Moses could not have lead the out of Egypt into the promised land, for the good reason that the latter was Egyptian territory at that time. And there is no trace of a slave revolt against the Pharaonic empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders. Nor is there any trace or memory of the magnificent kingdom of David and Solomon. Recent discoveries point to the existence at the time, of two small kingdoms, Israel the more powerful, and Juda the future Judea. The general population of Judah did not go into 6th century BC exile. Only it's political and intellectual elite were forced to settle in Babylon. This decisive encounter with Persian religion gave birth to Jewish monotheism. " I used to point this out in the God Thread on the old board. It took this event for the Jews to finally accept the " god of Abraham" was their god. Their rationale was this exile was punishment for not believing in him. back to the article " Then there is the question of the exile in 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for the simple reason. The Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam in the 7th century Arab conquest. Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this, Yitzhak Ben Zvi later president of Isreal and David Ben Gurion, it's first prime Minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt, both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea. " So, do we, you athiests in particular want to believe in a book of fables, myths and allegories ? Or do we believe in historical fact ? And for full disclosure Shlomo is another jew/Israeli that is ashamed of the actions of his country. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew Edited February 2 by Ilunga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: The intention that it was punishment of some kind against Belgium I guess it depends how you view the conflict, and what actually ends up happening. How much of Israel is stolen in your opinion? Stolen according to who? Zionists believe it's their God-given right to be in that land, all of it - from the river to the sea. The Greater Israel movement is becoming more visible amongst the extremists. Forget about the Palestenains that were there for a good while tho eh? And if you can read between the lines, the Zionists are kicking em out or killing em, which the US is against but the US isn't doing much to stop this from happening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 " It's funny how some fables became historic When the authors clearly wrote them to be metaphoric But people will believe in anything that is written Especially in stone or ancient scroll " Old mate...the heeb...Mike Burkett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 50 minutes ago, Ilunga said: How much of Israel is stolen ? That's a question I have for the athiests in this thread. How much of the mythical religious text called the bible do you actually believe is true ? These are the thoughts of Shlomo Sand an Israeli historian https://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel " But during the 1980's an earthquake shook these founding myths. The discoveries made by the " new archaeology" discredited a great exodus in the 13th century BC. Moses could not have lead the out of Egypt into the promised land, for the good reason that the latter was Egyptian territory at that time. And there is no trace of a slave revolt against the Pharaonic empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders. Nor is there any trace or memory of the magnificent kingdom of David and Solomon. Recent discoveries point to the existence at the time, of two small kingdoms, Israel the more powerful, and Juda the future Judea. The general population of Judah did not go into 6th century BC exile. Only it's political and intellectual elite were forced to settle in Babylon. This decisive encounter with Persian religion gave birth to Jewish monotheism. " I used to point this out in the God Thread on the old board. It took this event for the Jews to finally accept the " god of Abraham" was their god. Their rationale was this exile was punishment for not believing in him. back to the article " Then there is the question of the exile in 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for the simple reason. The Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam in the 7th century Arab conquest. Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this, Yitzhak Ben Zvi later president of Isreal and David Ben Gurion, it's first prime Minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt, both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea. " So, do we, you athiests in particular want to believe in a book of fables, myths and allegories ? Or do we believe in historical fact ? And for full disclosure Shlomo is another jew/Israeli that is ashamed of the actions of his country. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew I mentioned this before and I will say it again - why is it if someone is a Jew then his/her opinion immediately becomes some sort of beacon? What's funny, it's always the same "meshugene" Finkelstein, Sand, Neturei Karta - fringe voices that no one in Jewish community pays serious attention to. What's funny, if you look at the biography of both Finkelstein and Sand you find a lot in common - pro-communist, anti-Western from their birth. I will never take an opinion of a communist seriously. Especially someone who remained communist their entire lives with all the history of communism in this world. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I mentioned this before and I will say it again - why is it if someone is a Jew then his/her opinion immediately becomes some sort of beacon? What's funny, it's always the same "meshugene" Finkelstein, Sand, Neturei Karta - fringe voices that no one in Jewish community pays serious attention to. What's funny, if you look at the biography of both Finkelstein and Sand you find a lot in common - pro-communist, anti-Western from their birth. I will never take an opinion of a communist seriously. Especially someone who remained communist their entire lives with all the history of communism in this world. For starters he is a historian, that's his job, to study and research history. While you and I are amatuer historians our knowledge is no where near as extensive as his. And what Yitzhak Ben Zvi and David Ben Gurion stated weren't their opinions, they stated the peasants of Palestine were the direct descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea. These are facts, as uncomfortable as they maybe to you. As for your statement about communism, we have had this discussion before. Just because a person believes in the ideals of Karl Marx, who was also a Jew, doesn't mean they believe in form of control men have twisted those beliefs into. There has never been a regime that resembled anything close to what Marx wrote about in the communist manifesto. But you would know that if you have actually read that book and Das Kapital. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 56 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I mentioned this before and I will say it again - why is it if someone is a Jew then his/her opinion immediately becomes some sort of beacon? What's funny, it's always the same "meshugene" Finkelstein, Sand, Neturei Karta - fringe voices that no one in Jewish community pays serious attention to. What's funny, if you look at the biography of both Finkelstein and Sand you find a lot in common - pro-communist, anti-Western from their birth. I will never take an opinion of a communist seriously. Especially someone who remained communist their entire lives with all the history of communism in this world. @RomanPer These are the five beneficial ideas that Marx wrote about in his communist manifesto 1. People are equal 2. Every citizen can keep a job 3. There is an eternally stable economic system 4. Strong social communities are established 5. Efficient distribution of resources Sounds fuckin great doesn't it. Sign me up if that was the end result. You know the two big examples of countries that purported to be communist societies ? China and Russia. Two societies where the people had never been free. And guess what ? Russia is no longer considered a communist society and their people still aren't really free, from Tsars, to communist dictators to Putin. And China while is still " ruled" by a communist party it has become an essentially free market economy. One where 95 percent of the populations health care costs are covered by three public insurance programs. Want to talk about that in relation to the world's richest economy, the US, where they can't even look after the health care of a big percentage of their population ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 25 minutes ago, Ilunga said: @RomanPer These are the five beneficial ideas that Marx wrote about in his communist manifesto 1. People are equal 2. Every citizen can keep a job 3. There is an eternally stable economic system 4. Strong social communities are established 5. Efficient distribution of resources Sounds fuckin great doesn't it. Sign me up if that was the end result. You know the two big examples of countries that purported to be communist societies ? China and Russia. Two societies where the people had never been free. And guess what ? Russia is no longer considered a communist society and their people still aren't really free, from Tsars, to communist dictators to Putin. And China while is still " ruled" by a communist party it has become an essentially free market economy. One where 95 percent of the populations health care costs are covered by three public insurance programs. Want to talk about that in relation to the world's richest economy, the US, where they can't even look after the health care of a big percentage of their population ? 2 things - 1) What does the fact that Marx was Jewish have to do with anything? Do you mention someone's nationality every time you mention someone's name? 2) You know communism by the books. I lived the nightmare. Different perspectives... 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: For starters he is a historian, that's his job, to study and research history. While you and I are amatuer historians our knowledge is no where near as extensive as his. And what Yitzhak Ben Zvi and David Ben Gurion stated weren't their opinions, they stated the peasants of Palestine were the direct descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea. These are facts, as uncomfortable as they maybe to you. As for your statement about communism, we have had this discussion before. Just because a person believes in the ideals of Karl Marx, who was also a Jew, doesn't mean they believe in form of control men have twisted those beliefs into. There has never been a regime that resembled anything close to what Marx wrote about in the communist manifesto. But you would know that if you have actually read that book and Das Kapital. Not when he is the only historian with this theory. I'm sure you can find a lot more historians of different nationalities who have different views on the history of that region than the communist who wrote a book "How I stopped being a Jew". I never listen to people I don't respect. And the 2 communists I mentioned before are at the top of the list of people I don't respect. Moreover - I despise both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 minutes ago, RomanPer said: 2 things - 1) What does the fact that Marx was Jewish have to do with anything? Do you mention someone's nationality every time you mention someone's name? 2) You know communism by the books. I lived the nightmare. Different perspectives... I have researched Shlomo. He sounds like me, an idealist He believes in the ideals Marx wrote about, not the forms of control men twisted those ideals to become. And none of this has anything to do with the historical facts he presented in that article. I did further research myself, and what he claims can be verified. Tell me, have you read The Communist ,Manifesto and Das Kapital ? Did the society you live in resemble the ideals that Marx and Engels were espousing ? I have read them and I can tell you, that the USSR bore very little resemblance to those ideals being put into practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I have researched Shlomo. He sounds like me, an idealist He believes in the ideals Marx wrote about, not the forms of control men twisted those ideals to become. And none of this has anything to do with the historical facts he presented in that article. I did further research myself, and what he claims can be verified. Tell me, have you read The Communist ,Manifesto and Das Kapital ? Did the society you live in resemble the ideals that Marx and Engels were espousing ? I have read them and I can tell you, that the USSR bore very little resemblance to those ideals being put into practice. Bro, not only I read them, I had to memorize huge parts of it and write numerous essays on the content of both of them throughout my 10 years of school and 5 years of university. Answer me one question - name one country that chose Marx/Engels utopia and came anywhere close to it without trumping on the people. There are plenty utopian ideas around the world. They are all worthless without proper implementation. While communism might be a great idea, it's one of such utopias and when I say "communist" - I mean it in the worst possible context based on the real life realities. It's incredible that you are trying to tell me something about communism and life in the USSR Edited February 2 by RomanPer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 19 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Not when he is the only historian with this theory. I'm sure you can find a lot more historians of different nationalities who have different views on the history of that region than the communist who wrote a book "How I stopped being a Jew". I never listen to people I don't respect. And the 2 communists I mentioned before are at the top of the list of people I don't respect. Moreover - I despise both of them. He is not the only historian with this theory. Can you provide me with proof of the events put forth in the first testament ? A book that any rational person knows is a collection of myths and allegories. Well present me with some of this history you are talking about. I always have an open mind. Which by the statements you are making in your post, you don't. I guess that's the difference between you and me, I judge a person by the content of their character. From the research I have done of him, he seems like a decent person, who wants equality for all. And is he still a member of a communist party, it seems he declined an offer by the Maki Israeli communist party to be sent to do cinema studies in Poland in 1982. I can't find any evidence that he has been an active communist since. Uhh I just found out he was a member of a " radical " group the Matzpen, who tried to bring together Arabs and Jews. What a fucked up idea that is. And no he wasn't part of a group of people from that organisation that was a spy ring for Syrian intelligence service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Bro, not only I read them, I had to memorize huge parts of it and write numerous essays on the content of both of them throughout my 10 years of school and 5 years of university. Answer me one question - name one country that chose Marx/Engels utopia and came anywhere close to it without trumping on the people. There are plenty utopian ideas around the world. They are all worthless without proper implementation. While communism might be a great idea, it's one of such utopias and when I say "communist" - I mean it in the worst possible context based on the real life realities. It's incredible that you are trying to tell me something about communism and life in the USSR Show where I am trying to tell you anything about life in the USSR apart from the fact that people there have never been free ...ever, before or after communist rule. I certainly haven't told you anything about what life was like in the USSR under communist rule. Why do you claim I am doing this ? All I have stated is the ideals that Marx and Engels espoused in their books, are ideals I believe in. I have actually stated that the USSR did not come close to those ideals. That men twisted those ideals to become a form of control. Just because those ideals have never been put into practice properly does not mean those ideals are not worth aspiring to. 1. People are Equal 2. Every citizen has a job 3. There is an eternally stable economic system 4. Strong social communities are established 5. Efficient distribution of resources These are five key things Marx wrote about as you know. Aren't these admirable ideals we should strive for, no matter what you want to call that social/ political system ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Could have posted this in the Ukraine thread however it is Israel that has given safe haven to this Russian band that is anti-war/putin There is an Aussie connection. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-02/aussie-rocker-among-russian-band-bi-2-deported-to-israel/103417928 @Canuck Surfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: Show where I am trying to tell you anything about life in the USSR apart from the fact that people there have never been free ...ever, before or after communist rule. I certainly haven't told you anything about what life was like in the USSR under communist rule. Why do you claim I am doing this ? All I have stated is the ideals that Marx and Engels espoused in their books, are ideals I believe in. I have actually stated that the USSR did not come close to those ideals. That men twisted those ideals to become a form of control. Just because those ideals have never been put into practice properly does not mean those ideals are not worth aspiring to. 1. People are Equal 2. Every citizen has a job 3. There is an eternally stable economic system 4. Strong social communities are established 5. Efficient distribution of resources These are five key things Marx wrote about as you know. Aren't these admirable ideals we should strive for, no matter what you want to call that social/ political system ? It’s pretty early and I just woke up, but are you trying to defend Marx and communism? Wtf? Hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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