Alflives Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 minute ago, Ilunga said: You can kill people but you can't kill an ideology. And that's essentially what Hamas is, an ideology. " You can't kill your way to defeating an ideology " I have posted enough evidence to illustrate that Israel's actions are only attracting more people to that ideology. https://potomacinstitute.org/reports/39-books/117-new-release-it-s-the-ideology-how-to-defeat-islamist-terrorism-once-and-for-all-2 " Kill that ideology and we kill the terrorism it breeds. But we cannot kill ideas with bombs and bullets - we can only kill them with better ideas. " Didn’t the US kill the archaic Japanese ideology in ‘45? And then, with support, Japan redefined itself and became a great nation. Why can’t the people of Gaza, after the evil that is Hamas is eliminated, become a great nation? Yes, it will take two to three (or more) generations, but why not? Surely there isn’t something wrong with the people of Gaza that prevents them from becoming great? If Japanese people can do this then the people of Gaza can too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 35 minutes ago, Alflives said: Got to disagree. The IDF will eliminate Hamas’s ability to wage attacks. Hamas should surrender though so the people of Gaza, who they are supposed to represent, don’t continue to suffer. Firstly, the IDF did not stop Oct 7 from happening when the IDF should never have allowed it to happen in the first place. The infiltration, the damage done in the Israeli border, and letting Hamas go with the hostages, all while from reports I heard that Hamas was in there for 5 freaking hours?? And able to get out?? Secondly, 4 months in and sooo much destruction later, Hamas is still there are they not? Israel tried collective punishment in the forms of bombs, didn't work because of the tunnels. The ground invasion didn't work because it was too costly to the IDF. Now the IDF is going to starve Gaza to starve Hamas. Also, now you are ignoring the Hezbollah faction on the North border that is escalating. Again, no goals accomplished. I wouldn't even say Israel is any closer to accomplishing their stated goals. Israel is now even openly sayjng there will be now Palestine! But, Israel has done a remarkable demolition job and forced displacement of the Gazans. How are the Israeli beachfront developments in Gaza looking? Probably really good, I bet they're just itching to get all that up and running. Those pesky gazan animals are still in the way tho! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 2 minutes ago, Super19 said: Agreed, and it makes sense. I'm not saying I condone it, I'm just saying I understand. Elon Musk, before he visited Nentanyahu and Israel, said on a Lex Friedman podcast that for every Hamas killed, how many who lost a loved will join Hamas? I don't have the exact quotation but you get the idea! Not sure other people do tho... Israeli aggression premeditated Palestenian response. And for the Palestenians that choose peace, I've posted numerous examples and left out countless examples of the people/State some people expect these peaceful Palestenians to co-exist with. I don't agree that any of this is justified either, it's simply a matter of fact. I have the exact quotation from a study that was commissioned by an American general who had a vast amount of experience in counter insurgency conflicts. 10 terrorists are recruited for every civilian killed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 minute ago, Ilunga said: I don't agree that any of this is justified either, it's simply a matter of fact. I have the exact quotation from a study that was commissioned by an American general who had a vast amount of experience in counter insurgency conflicts. 10 terrorists are recruited for every civilian killed. Careful for posting facts and common sense before you get called a terrorist supporter. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 2 minutes ago, Super19 said: Firstly, the IDF did not stop Oct 7 from happening when the IDF should never have allowed it to happen in the first place. The infiltration, the damage done in the Israeli border, and letting Hamas go with the hostages, all while from reports I heard that Hamas was in there for 5 freaking hours?? And able to get out?? Secondly, 4 months in and sooo much destruction later, Hamas is still there are they not? Israel tried collective punishment in the forms of bombs, didn't work because of the tunnels. The ground invasion didn't work because it was too costly to the IDF. Now the IDF is going to starve Gaza to starve Hamas. Also, now you are ignoring the Hezbollah faction on the North border that is escalating. Again, no goals accomplished. I wouldn't even say Israel is any closer to accomplishing their stated goals. Israel is now even openly sayjng there will be now Palestine! But, Israel has done a remarkable demolition job and forced displacement of the Gazans. How are the Israeli beachfront developments in Gaza looking? Probably really good, I bet they're just itching to get all that up and running. Those pesky gazan animals are still in the way tho! Hamas do behave bad but they aren’t animals. Hamas are vile and evil. Animals aren’t like that at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 minutes ago, Alflives said: Didn’t the US kill the archaic Japanese ideology in ‘45? And then, with support, Japan redefined itself and became a great nation. Why can’t the people of Gaza, after the evil that is Hamas is eliminated, become a great nation? Yes, it will take two to three (or more) generations, but why not? Surely there isn’t something wrong with the people of Gaza that prevents them from becoming great? If Japanese people can do this then the people of Gaza can too. You know what it took for the Yanks to defeat the Japanese Bushido ethic of return home victorious or die in battle ? Drop two atomic bombs on them. Are you suggesting that we should take that fruitcakes Amichai Eliyahu's advice that Isreal should nuke Gaza ? And you are talking about 2 completely different scenarios. One people, the Japanese tried to conquer other people and take their land. The other people, the Palestinians are fighting for a land of their own. I can't remember if you have stated that Palestinians have the right to self determination and a nation/ state of their own. Do you believe in these things ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 minutes ago, Ilunga said: You know what it took for the Yanks to defeat the Japanese Bushido ethic of return home victorious or die in battle ? Drop two atomic bombs on them. Are you suggesting that we should take that fruitcakes Amichai Eliyahu's advice that Isreal should nuke Gaza ? And you are talking about 2 completely different scenarios. One people, the Japanese tried to conquer other people and take their land. The other people, the Palestinians are fighting for a land of their own. I can't remember if you have stated that Palestinians have the right to self determination and a nation/ state of their own. Do you believe in these things ? Are you saying the people of Gaza are not able to make their state great? Are you suggesting they are lesser than the Japanese people? Alf doesn’t understand. Please explain why you think this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 11 minutes ago, Super19 said: Careful for posting facts and common sense before you get called a terrorist supporter. Nah, people just ignore facts that posted that don't fit their narrative. As I have already stated and no one bothered to refute, because they can't. Displace 700,000 people and kill tens of thousands more and you are called nation builders. Kill thousands of people and you are called terrorists. Go figure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Alflives said: Are you saying the people of Gaza are not able to make their state great? Are you suggesting they are lesser than the Japanese people? Alf doesn’t understand. Please explain why you think this. Are you seriously suggesting that an area that my home city of Melbourne is 28 times bigger than, can be called a state ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-24/how-big-is-the-gaza-strip/103001830 That you can build a functioning nation/state in an area that size ? Seriously ? Edit You didn't answer my question In regards to the Palestinians right to self determination ? Edited February 10 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 4 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Are you seriously suggesting that an area that my home city of Melbourne is 28 times bigger than, can be called a state ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-24/how-big-is-the-gaza-strip/103001830 That you can build a functioning nation/state in an area that size ? Seriously ? Edit You didn't answer my question In regards to the Palestinians right to self determination ? So you believe the people of Gaza aren’t capable, like the people of Japan, of rebuilding their territory into something better? Why is that? What is the difference between those Gaza people and the Japanese people? imhao people are people, regardless of their location. If you think differently, that’s okay. I just disagree. I think after the IDF eliminates Hamas then the people of Gaza, with the help of the western world (like with Japan) will rebuild into a strong region. IMHAO the people of Gaza can do this. I don’t see them as lesser than any other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 I don't how things are going to get resolved if Israel keeps insisting on no two state solution. Maybe breaking the endless chain of retaliation and counter-retaliation. I feel sorry for the children on both sides. They didn't ask for this. And they are going to be messed up for life. I guess if peace sells, who's buying? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Alflives said: So you believe the people of Gaza aren’t capable, like the people of Japan, of rebuilding their territory into something better? Why is that? What is the difference between those Gaza people and the Japanese people? imhao people are people, regardless of their location. If you think differently, that’s okay. I just disagree. I think after the IDF eliminates Hamas then the people of Gaza, with the help of the western world (like with Japan) will rebuild into a strong region. IMHAO the people of Gaza can do this. I don’t see them as lesser than any other people. You seem to be ignoring all the evidence that Israel is not beating Hamas. That it's actions have, and will only draw more support for them. I have this great idea to end the conflict. That Isreal listens to the international community in regards to the ilegal settlements in the west bank and east Jerusalem, get the fuck out of those Occupied territories. Let the Palestinians form a nation/state of their own and allow them the right of self determination. You know, the things Isrealis have themselves and what the Palestinians have been both fighting and LOBBYING for, for decades. Sounds pretty reasonable and fair to me. Then they can build that better society. Edited February 10 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 13 minutes ago, Ilunga said: You seem to be ignoring all the evidence that Israel is not beating Hamas. That it's actions have, and will only draw more support for them. I have this great idea to end the conflict. That Isreal listens to the international community in regards to the ilegal settlements in the west bank and east Jerusalem, get the fuck out of those Occupied territories. Let the Palestinians form a nation/state of their own and allow them the right of self determination. You know, the things Isrealis have themselves and what the Palestinians have been both fighting and LOBBYING for, for decades. Sounds pretty reasonable and fair to me. Then they can build that better society. Imagine if they. GASP! Worked together! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 minute ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Imagine if they. GASP! Worked together! Earlier in the thread I posted a bunch of articles and videos of Isrealis and Palestinians working together for peace. The standing together movement which is the supposedly largest group Combatants for peace https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/06/former-fighters-israeli-palestinian-peace-contd-orig-vf.cnn Women wage peace (Isreali) Women of the sun (Palestinian) If you are interested, I can post more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Alflives said: Hamas do behave bad but they aren’t animals. Hamas are vile and evil. Animals aren’t like that at all. What are your thoughts on the IDF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 hours ago, Super19 said: Again, Israel is not accomplishing any of its goals. Hamas is still there. Now Hezbollah is firing rockets into Israel. The hostages haven't been returned. The only time they did is when Israel dealt with Hamas. And plus, the IDF have even killed some hostages and saved zero. So not only have any goals not been accomplished, Israel finds themselves in the hot seat at The Hague, finds themselves with Hezbollah now firing rockets at them, and cannot even stop the Houthis from imposing their blockade which is affecting their economy: "While fighting in Gaza may diminish in intensity or pause, there is currently no agreement to end the hostilities durably and no agreement on a longer-term plan that would fully restore and eventually strengthen security for Israel," Moody's said in a statement on Friday." https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/moodys-downgrades-israel-a2-2024-02-09/ Don't confuse the lopsided destruction of targets vs non targets and destruction of Gaza to what is actually being accomplished towards peace and security. So tell me how Hamas is doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Boudrias Posted February 10 Popular Post Share Posted February 10 11 hours ago, Alflives said: Got to disagree. The IDF will eliminate Hamas’s ability to wage attacks. Hamas should surrender though so the people of Gaza, who they are supposed to represent, don’t continue to suffer. Iran is running a disinformation campaign thru their affiliates and western allies trying influence Israel's campaign in Gaza. It won't stop the IDF nor can it. Israel has to ensure it's survival first and foremost. It likely comes down to Israel's survival or a regime change in Tehran. I vote for Israel. As long as Palestinians shield and protect Hamas their future will be grim. 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 11 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said: I don't how things are going to get resolved if Israel keeps insisting on no two state solution. Maybe breaking the endless chain of retaliation and counter-retaliation. I feel sorry for the children on both sides. They didn't ask for this. And they are going to be messed up for life. I guess if peace sells, who's buying? The larger objection to a two state solution is the Palestinian people themselves. They have been taught for 80 years this is 100% their land. It has been offered at least 5 times including 2006 & upon Israels inception. Not by Bibi's Likud party, nonetheless... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 54 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: The larger objection to a two state solution is the Palestinian people themselves. They have been taught for 80 years this is 100% their land. It has been offered at least 5 times including 2006 & upon Israels inception. Not by Bibi's Likud party, nonetheless... If both sides hate it then it's a compromise then. Price of peace? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Maker Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 People pushing the Palestinian rejectivism narrative either believe it is fair for the Palestinians to accept a deal from the settler colonialists that turned into occupiers, or think it would be smart for the Palestinians to accept the deal before more land will be taken away from them. They believe the settlers are doing the Palestinians a favour. Nothing would have been a "fair solution" to the original inhabitants as soon as the other one party starts taking the land over, keeping it and kicking everyone else out. It may have been "legal"doing so at the beginning (at the time of the British Mandate), but that doesn't make it humane. In retrospect, every proposal of a statehood solution had been a compromise in the eye of a Palestinian. The Zionists were never genuine in striking a deal to share the land with the Palestinians anyway, all the peace talks/ceasefires were just a smoke screen to buy time for more settlement in occupied lands. The continuing settlement is the biggest red flag that the Zionists have never had a vision where the occupied land would be returned to the Palestinians. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Maker Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 20 hours ago, Bure_Pavel said: Important lesson here is don't pick fights you have no chance of winning. What did Hamas really expect was going to happen after Oct 7. This echoes the mentality of a fellow Canadian who commented on a post about a pro-Palestinian protest at a Chapters/Indigo that I came across on the interwebs. He defended the Israeli occupation by comparing it to Colonial Canada, and I'm paraphrasing his remark: "The land (Canada) is ours now, (won over the first nations) fair and square." The statement got a number of likes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 hours ago, Boudrias said: Iran is running a disinformation campaign thru their affiliates and western allies trying influence Israel's campaign in Gaza. It won't stop the IDF nor can it. Israel has to ensure it's survival first and foremost. It likely comes down to Israel's survival or a regime change in Tehran. I vote for Israel. As long as Palestinians shield and protect Hamas their future will be grim. Jeeze, what is this "disinformation campagn" you speak of? The extremist Israeli-Zionist propaganda machine is the one spinning in overtime to somehow make you think what's happening in Gaza right now is OK and justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 2 minutes ago, Super19 said: Jeeze, what is this "disinformation campagn" you speak of? The extremist Israeli-Zionist propaganda machine is the one spinning in overtime to somehow make you think what's happening in Gaza right now is OK and justified. Don't do that, you know Palestine has its own PR engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 UNRWA Commissioner-General appears to be distancing the agency from what is about to be discovered at their main headquarters in GAZA? Isn't this like telling the cops who are about to search your house that you have no idea how the drugs n guns got in the bedroom, if any are found there soon? 2 hours ago - 31°30′N 34°27′E UNRWA Commissioner-General: The agency's employees have left the main headquarters in Gaza City since October 12, and we do not know what is underneath 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 cnn reporting: Israel claims it uncovered a Hamas tunnel beneath UN agency's Gaza headquarters From CNN’s Pierre Meilhan and Lauren Izso Israel claimed Saturday it uncovered a major Hamas tunnel hiding weapons underneath a United Nations aid agency headquarters in northern Gaza. The alleged finding took place as part of an Israeli military operation in the areas of Shati and Tel al-Hawa in northern Gaza, according to the Israel Defense Forces. The IDF claimed in a statement its troops reached a tunnel shaft located near a school operated by the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA). It did not say, however, when the discovery was made. CNN has not independently verified Israel’s claims. UNRWA head issued a quick response: The organization's commissioner-general, Philippe Lazzarini, said the agency did not know what is under its headquarters in Gaza and that “Israeli authorities have not informed UNRWA officially about the alleged tunnel,” so they are unable to address the claim further. The UN agency carries out inspections inside its premises every quarter, and the last one that took place in its Gaza premises was completed in September, according to Lazzarini. Israel's Foreign Minister Israel Katz called for Lazzarini to resign after the latest claims of a tunnel beneath UNRWA headquarters Saturday. Lazzarini did not immediately respond. Some background: Israel has longstanding issues with UNRWA, and the agency fired several employees after Israel alleged that some of its staff were involved in Hamas’ October 7 attacks of last year. The United States and at least 13 of its allies have pulled funding for the agency while investigators probe the claims. UN officials have raised alarm that defunding the organization imperils its ability to provide lifesaving aid in the enclave. Gaza is home to a sprawling underground network of tunnels used by Hamas. The group has claimed there are more than 300 miles worth of the subterranean passages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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