Ilunga Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: The Quran is a 'bible' to Muslims and used to form doctrine. A guide for their lifestyle to this day, every day based on its teachings. Doctrine intended or otherwise spun, very much a modern document. Jerusalem BTW is quoted by Roman correctly as holding a Jewish majority for many hundreds of years. Before Zionism. Before and after WWI, WWII, 1947 (see what I did there), not surprisingly since. As well as having historical places of reverence for Jews. Then there is a Christian minority after a significant Muslim population, and other faiths. If freedoms are important, should people have religious freedom? That East Jerusalem 'has been on the table' I suggest is a sign Israel will compromise? How do you take fucked Hamas out of the equation? I see above invite 3rd parties, Scandinavia mentioned above. As many groups as possible IMO, without question including Palestinian and non Palestinian Arab volunteers. Provost way back when, early here, also suggested pre 1967. I don't have an exact answer. A willing discussion is better than no discussion. Willing to take Hamas out, and how to take Hamas out is the central question of the day... I am not excusing Israel either. I point out that what they are doing looks, if we're being honest, like what seems all surrounding, not just immediately surrounding either, Arabic / Islamic countries and territories are doing. Isolating themselves defensively in lines clearly delineated along ethnic and religious designations. Purging or taking over the territories of competing religious and ethnic groups depending on who is in power, to expand. He,Roman, used the Torah as justification for Israel's right to Jerusalem. This Torah is the Pentateuch, which tells the story of creation of the world, (a)gods covenant with Abraham and his descendants, the exodus from Egypt and he revelation at the Mt. These things are myths, that have no historical or archeological evidence outside of mythical texts to back them up. So, as I have already asked, do we base decisions in the 21st century, on mythical texts that were written thousands of years ago ? Religious freedom ? Frankly I will defend anyone's right to do whatever the fuck they want as long as it does not impact others in a negative manner. And there's the catch. As I have stated, those " holy sites" in the "holy land " have caused so much shit over the Millennia, and they still are. Anyway getting back to the Palestinians I have stated how I feel. I believe what I have stated is reasonable. I wish the same for the Israeli people. Their society wasn't that free and just, before this phase of the conflict started. We all saw what was happening and what the Israeli people thought about it. Edited February 11 by Ilunga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 10 hours ago, Ilunga said: It's actually laughable that people actually believe that a stateless people, who don't even have a " formal " armed forces", especially the most important component in modern day warfare, an airforce, can destroy a country that has the worlds 17 ranked military force, including a military air fleet that is ranked at nine among 129 air fleets. Precisely my point. It is insane. It is a deathcult movement. There is almost zero rationality to the behaviour of the majority of Gazans who believe that all of Israel is theirs and they shouldn't accept a two state solution. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: I apologize; looks pre 'having bombed all of Gaza' like surrounding Islamic conflicts... Although Aleppo dwarfs Gaza for civilian deaths. Most other purges have been less obvious, where not less brutal. this. The acute attention paid to Gaza with not even a peep about Syria is because there are no Jews running Al-Assad's government. It is harder to come to the conclusion that the Syrian Armed forces are the bad guys when they are attacking other muslims, but seems easier when it is jews, to this observer of human behaviour. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 6 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: Precisely my point. It is insane. It is a deathcult movement. There is almost zero rationality to the behaviour of the majority of Gazans who believe that all of Israel is theirs and they shouldn't accept a two state solution. It is a just over half of all Palestinians who believe that all of Israel, Gaza and the occupied territories belong to them, in regards to a two - state solution. There are a few different polling figures in the article below, I chose the figures that included what Israelis thoughts are on this, in relation to the Palestinians. According to this article 43 percent of Palestinians and 42 percent of Israelis support a two - state solution. So slightly even more Israelis think all of Israel, Gaza and the occupied territories belong to them. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/what-do-palestinians-want And while I am being a bit pedantic. For clarification. " All of Isreal " Are you stating that Israel, Gaza and the occupied territories constitute all of Israel ? As I totally agree with you about Hamas. Evil is a subjective thing, however they commit horrific acts that can only be condemned. What are your thoughts on the Isreali settlers and their acts of terror ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 10 hours ago, Ilunga said: These things are myths, that have no historical or archeological evidence outside of mythical texts to back them up. So, as I have already asked, do we base decisions in the 21st century, on mythical texts that were written thousands of years ago ? Religious freedom ? Frankly I will defend anyone's right to do whatever the fuck they want as long as it does not impact others in a negative manner. And there's the catch. As I have stated, those " holy sites" in the "holy land " have caused so much shit over the Millennia, and they still are. Perhaps myth to you, an agnostic. A way of life, and belief system to others. Denying this is akin to denying religious freedom. Holy sites themselves are sites; not the behaviours that you speak of impacting others negatively. Causing sh!t. As mentioned, I abhor the latent destruction of Gaza by bombardment. Including the temples and Mosques mentioned in one of your posts, but really in generalized terms. That said, while there have been critical incidents & are restrictions, which I would hope someday would ease, thousands visit Al Aqsa in Jerusalem every day. It has not been closed for those of this faith in 80 years of Israeli occupation. My observation is Israel appears more open to the religious freedoms of others themselves. Unfortunately open indignant to violence some of their own extremists cast on Muslims. There are more than 2,000,000 Israeli citizens of Arab and Muslim decent. More open than masses of Islamic extremist groups who see all ethnic groups & religion as competition, their enemy & use religion to pacify masses, recruit and justify their militants. Competing ethnic groups and religions have to arm themselves to survive in Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Iraq. Have accept marginalization or leave places like Iran, Pakistan as the army, like Israel, is too strong to co-exist as armed freedom fighters. Armed 'freedom fighters' too embedded in Afghanistan for even Soviet or Americans power, Iraqi insurgency by the US to quash. In Iraq, 2,000,00 Christians have left as well as all Jewish groups, no longer welcome as a religion. You could say, and I know you do, the US interjection is the cause? Yet how can this be true as in Morocco, Libya, Yemen, SA, CAR etc., etc., this same purging is or already has occurred. At the head of most of these religious extremist groups, sometimes devout, sometimes not, extremely wealthy autocratic leaderships who seize power then profit from their militant armies. Who are controlled and recruited by ideology, in reality are pawns. They destroy opposition, seize power, controlling payola, human & militia trafficking, black markets, plus legitimate markets of resources, trade routes, key ports. These are the activities that have to be questioned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Perhaps myth to you, an agnostic. A way of life, and belief system to others. Denying this is akin to denying religious freedom. Holy sites themselves are sites; not the behaviours that you speak of impacting others negatively. Causing sh!t. As mentioned, I abhor the latent destruction of Gaza by bombardment. Including the temples and Mosques mentioned in one of your posts, but really in generalized terms. That said, while there have been critical incidents & are restrictions, which I would hope someday would ease, thousands visit Al Aqsa in Jerusalem every day. It has not been closed for those of this faith in 80 years of Israeli occupation. My observation is Israel appears more open to the religious freedoms of others themselves. Unfortunately open indignant to violence some of their own extremists cast on Muslims. There are more than 2,000,000 Israeli citizens of Arab and Muslim decent. More open than masses of Islamic extremist groups who see all ethnic groups & religion as competition, their enemy & use religion to pacify masses, recruit and justify their militants. Competing ethnic groups and religions have to arm themselves to survive in Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Iraq. Have accept marginalization or leave places like Iran, Pakistan as the army, like Israel, is too strong to co-exist as armed freedom fighters. Armed 'freedom fighters' too embedded in Afghanistan for even Soviet or Americans power, Iraqi insurgency by the US to quash. In Iraq, 2,000,00 Christians have left as well as all Jewish groups, no longer welcome as a religion. You could say, and I know you do, the US interjection is the cause? Yet how can this be true as in Morocco, Libya, Yemen, SA, CAR etc., etc., this same purging is or already has occurred. At the head of most of these religious extremist groups, sometimes devout, sometimes not, extremely wealthy autocratic leaderships who seize power then profit from their militant armies. Who are controlled and recruited by ideology, in reality are pawns. They destroy opposition, seize power, controlling payola, human & militia trafficking, black markets, plus legitimate markets of resources, trade routes, key ports. These are the activities that have to be questioned... When that way of life, and those belief systems start impacting others in a negative manner, then those belief systems have to be challenged. And they are not just myths to me, they actually are myths. The writings in the Torah have no archeological or historical evidence to back them up. I will ask you straight up. Do you believe we should base decisions we make in the 21st century on mythical texts that were written thousands of years ago. Some more words from my " heeb " brother " Would you read a 2000 Year old medical journal Techniques for blood-letting Advice on Trichinosis Would you navigate the globe With a map of flat earth Without DNA testing Would you believe in virgin birth " As for the rest, I am with you brother, however that isn't really relevant in regards to the right of Palestinians to have a state of their own. Edited February 12 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 39 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Perhaps myth to you, an agnostic. A way of life, and belief system to others. Denying this is akin to denying religious freedom. Holy sites themselves are sites; not the behaviours that you speak of impacting others negatively. Causing sh!t. As mentioned, I abhor the latent destruction of Gaza by bombardment. Including the temples and Mosques mentioned in one of your posts, but really in generalized terms. That said, while there have been critical incidents & are restrictions, which I would hope someday would ease, thousands visit Al Aqsa in Jerusalem every day. It has not been closed for those of this faith in 80 years of Israeli occupation. My observation is Israel appears more open to the religious freedoms of others themselves. Unfortunately open indignant to violence some of their own extremists cast on Muslims. There are more than 2,000,000 Israeli citizens of Arab and Muslim decent. More open than masses of Islamic extremist groups who see all ethnic groups & religion as competition, their enemy & use religion to pacify masses, recruit and justify their militants. Competing ethnic groups and religions have to arm themselves to survive in Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Iraq. Have accept marginalization or leave places like Iran, Pakistan as the army, like Israel, is too strong to co-exist as armed freedom fighters. Armed 'freedom fighters' too embedded in Afghanistan for even Soviet or Americans power, Iraqi insurgency by the US to quash. In Iraq, 2,000,00 Christians have left as well as all Jewish groups, no longer welcome as a religion. You could say, and I know you do, the US interjection is the cause? Yet how can this be true as in Morocco, Libya, Yemen, SA, CAR etc., etc., this same purging is or already has occurred. At the head of most of these religious extremist groups, sometimes devout, sometimes not, extremely wealthy autocratic leaderships who seize power then profit from their militant armies. Who are controlled and recruited by ideology, in reality are pawns. They destroy opposition, seize power, controlling payola, human & militia trafficking, black markets, plus legitimate markets of resources, trade routes, key ports. These are the activities that have to be questioned... isn't someone willing to kill you over a holy site missing the point of the holy site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: What are your thoughts on the Isreali settlers and their acts of terror ? It is a deeper discussion than I care to dive into here. Where real settler violence and illegal settlements occur they are abhorrent and must stop. However we will just continue to disagree on how rampant that actually is. Others have taken time to point out the west bank was offered in a deal that was repeatedly refused in a two state solution, and the original concept had several zones an A, B, and C. Et cetera.. blah blah blah ad infinitum and not all Israeli settlents there are illegal, and not all violence there is Israeli settlers doing wrong. Where settler violence happens without provocation, and it does happen, I condemn it, just as I condemn tossing molotov cocktails and slinging rocks at Israeli's. The thing is, you feel or put forward that all violence in the west Bank is settler violence and I disagree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Optimist Prime Posted February 12 Popular Post Share Posted February 12 46 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Do you believe we should base decisions we make in the 21st century on mythical texts that were written thousands of years ago? Hard no from me, dog. But you knew that, hehe. IMO the hardliner religious folks of the world are the main problem in the world. Yeehadi Americans, jihad Muslims, siks blowing up jets for a homeland, the world would be much better off without all these myth based religions interfering in humanity. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 18 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Hard no from me, dog. But you knew that, hehe. IMO the hardliner religious folks of the world are the main problem in the world. Yeehadi Americans, jihad Muslims, siks blowing up jets for a homeland, the world would be much better off without all these myth based religions interfering in humanity. Zionists killing Palestinians and displacing all of them could very well be on your list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 7 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: It is a deeper discussion than I care to dive into here. Where real settler violence and illegal settlements occur they are abhorrent and must stop. However we will just continue to disagree on how rampant that actually is. Others have taken time to point out the west bank was offered in a deal that was repeatedly refused in a two state solution, and the original concept had several zones an A, B, and C. Et cetera.. blah blah blah ad infinitum and not all Israelibsettlents there are illegal, and not all violence there is Israeli settlers do8ng wrong. Where settler violence happens without provocation, and it does happen, I condemn it, just as I condemn tossing molotov cocktails and slinging rocks at Israeli's. The thing is, you feel or put forward that all violence in the west Bank is settler violence and I disagree. That's the thing, all of the west bank was never offered in any deal. And as I have pointed out the most fertile land and the land that holds the most resources, Area C, was meant to be ceded back to the Palestinians. That hasn't happened. And some settlements will remain. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-offered-intact-settlements-as-part-of-peace-deal/ And they, Israel, never want to bring Jerusalem into any peace discussion, which has been pointed out, is one of the biggest impediments to a peaceful resolution to this conflict. You say blah blah blah, this is peoples lives we are taking about. All of the settlements are ilegal under international law. Your government, the government you work for states this. I have stated that is a circle of hatred that is fueled by violence on both sides. If the Israelis got the fuck out of the west bank like the international community calls on them to do, there would be no violence in the west bank. And the " results" of the violence in regards to all Palestinians and Israelis is so one sided. As I have posted from 2008 - 2020 the period that I can find that matches Hamas " rule " 115,000 Palestinians killed and injured compared to roughly 6000 Isrealis killed and injured. And again, no I actually know all the violence in the west bank isn't committed by the Israelis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 25 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Hard no from me, dog. But you knew that, hehe. IMO the hardliner religious folks of the world are the main problem in the world. Yeehadi Americans, jihad Muslims, siks blowing up jets for a homeland, the world would be much better off without all these myth based religions interfering in humanity. Yes I cracked up when they used to compare PO1135809 supporters in their trucks with their flags to the ISIS fuckwits in their trucks with their flags. It's either laugh or cry, right ? I believe religion has a place for people like my parents, who actually practiced what those allegories taught. Kindness and compassion to others. Just seperate the church and state. Or church and skate ? Me " heeb " mate again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Fuck the IDF for what they did in Rafah tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 minute ago, Super19 said: Fuck the IDF for what they did in Rafah tonight. What did they do other than eliminate more evil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 The Israeli army says it captured approximately 20 militants hiding in the al-Amal hospital in Western Khan Younis. The detained militants were transferred to Israel for interrogation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 13 minutes ago, Alflives said: What did they do other than eliminate more evil? Brother, the IDF did really evil things in Rafah tonight. I can't post the videos today but they are all over Twitter right now. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Just now, Super19 said: Brother, the IDF did really evil things in Rafah tonight. I can't post the videos today but they are all over Twitter right now. Hopefully Hamas surrenders and this mess is over soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 26 minutes ago, Alflives said: Hopefully Hamas surrenders and this mess is over soon. Yup, innocent people, already displaced do not need to also be a hiding spot for baddies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 16 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Yup, innocent people, already displaced do not need to also be a hiding spot for baddies. Yes using people as human shields is not just wrong, it is a war crime. I not just condemn Hamas for doing this, it has cost the lives of so many women and children which really upsets me to say the least. Some one should tell this to the Israeli soldiers on the West Bank, that used this guy as a human shield. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-says-israeli-soldiers-used-him-human-shield-west-bank-2024-01-16/ And while this was nearly 20 years ago " Israeli high court bans military of Palestinians as human shields" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel " The Isreali high court yesterday ruled that the Army's long standing practice of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in combat is ilegal under international law " There have been other documented cases since then, including the article above, where the IDF still uses this tactic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Two hostages freed via special operation! Huzzah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 other hostages and an unknown number of terrorist jihadi's among the 80 kill3d by that bombing. Absolutely sick and insane tactics by hamas to hide among Gazan civilians and to hide their hostages among them too. what did the innocent dead know that could have saved their lives had they reached out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 10 hours ago, Ilunga said: Do you believe we should base decisions we make in the 21st century on mythical texts that were written thousands of years ago. More probe leading questions rather than an answer from yourself. 70% of the world is religious. Their way of life, is important to them. Therefore myself because I believe people have a right to religious freedom. Except when someone thinks they can kill you in the name of their God. Or similar. Jew Muslim or otherwise. To ask a similar question of yourself; Do you believe that people who disagree with logic as you see it? Have no right of personal belief... 10 hours ago, Bob Long said: isn't someone willing to kill you over a holy site missing the point of the holy site? 100% Correct, a paradox, but exactly the point! Even worse? It's often a spiritual leader convincing you to 'martyr' yourself to protect secure such a site. Meanwhile said leader gets payola & profit from your blood? All too common there is a key port, or similar, being made available in the conquest of surrounding territory. Happy to sacrifice you in the name of God. Or you know what I mean? To me, everywhere I hear of Crusades? Such paradoxes, corruption are rife. Those, however, are behaviours not theology itself. So by all means, anybody, prey wherever you like! If we cannot offer the dignity of peaceful beliefs? Someone else will surface to exploit it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 PA President (not Hamas, but?) Abbas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: More probe leading questions rather than an answer from yourself. 70% of the world is religious. Their way of life, is important to them. Therefore myself because I believe people have a right to religious freedom. Except when someone thinks they can kill you in the name of their God. Or similar. Jew Muslim or otherwise. To ask a similar question of yourself; Do you believe that people who disagree with logic as you see it? Have no right of personal belief... 100% Correct, a paradox, but exactly the point! Even worse? It's often a spiritual leader convincing you to 'martyr' yourself to protect secure such a site. Meanwhile said leader gets payola & profit from your blood? All too common there is a key port, or similar, being made available in the conquest of surrounding territory. Happy to sacrifice you in the name of God. Or you know what I mean? To me, everywhere I hear of Crusades? Such paradoxes, corruption are rife. Those, however, are behaviours not theology itself. So by all means, anybody, prey wherever you like! If we cannot offer the dignity of peaceful beliefs? Someone else will surface to exploit it. I don't know what to say. One asks a question, to get an answer. Hopefully a definitive answer. If you feel I haven't answered a question you have asked me, ask me directly again. One asks so many questions in this thread about people respecting their governments and the worlds views on the ilegal settlements, and one doesn't get an answer. I just asked a regular contributor to this thread if he considered Isreal, Gaza and the occupied territories as Israel, when he referred to ' all of Isreal ", and I didn't get an answer. So many more unanswered questions. Brother I will fight for people's right to believe pink pigs fly if that makes them happy. I gave you an answer about my views on people's right to hold religious beliefs. I stated, as I have many times on both boards that I will defend people's right to do(believe in) whatever they fuck they want so long as they don't impact(fuck with others)in a negative manner. And there's the catch, many religious people believe that their beliefs, give them the right to infringe on the rights of others. I also stated I that those " holy sites " in the "holy land " have caused so much pain and suffering through the millenia. Again as I have already stated, I believe that religion at a congregational level can be a good thing. My parents congregation was a great example of this. People that actually lived up to the messages that are contained in those allegories. What I am 100 percent certain of, is that there should be seperation of church and state. And geopolitical decisions aren't made in accordance with religious beliefs and mythical texts that were written thousands of years ago. This song sums up my feelings on religion, those that believe the allegorical characters. Governments and " our religion" The " religion " mentioned in the last four lines. " Religion the opiate of the masses But when they talk about god they make him sound like a fascist Jesus Christ was a pacifist Half the shit they do in his name would probably make him pissed Yet they still hold out with the same old line of bullshit Placate the masses tap into their wallets How the hell can you tell me about the afterlife You haven't been there and check neither have I Cause morality don't need no government And the system that they run I got no love for it So I dedicate my life to music And when it hits you know I don't refuse it Me I found my salvation here on earth I roll the tape on my 24 track church " Jaya the Cat Edited February 12 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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