Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

33 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I bet people in Hamas who train people to strap bombs to themselves can explain it. 

Hamas hasn't done a suicide bombing in decades? It's literally not in their M.O. Hamas =/= ISIS. 

 

Hamas did issue a statement regarding Aaron. Meanwhile, Zionists on Twitter called him an idiot, and another enemy englufed in flames.

 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Super19 said:

Hamas hasn't done a suicide bombing in decades? It's literally not in their M.O. Hamas =/= ISIS. 

 

Hamas did issue a statement regarding Aaron. Meanwhile, Zionists on Twitter called him an idiot, and another enemy englufed in flames.

 

 

I'm sure Hamas was thrilled to be able to tweet that.

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

It's a war not in his country, tho.

 

 

 

 

 

He was a member of the armed forces of the biggest supporter of Israel.

He was protesting not just the war, but his country's support of it.

 

 

[Alflives]

52 minutes ago, AatuD2 said:

 

First one that popped into my mind where someone committed suicide in protest to his country's government.  

 

Calling him mentally ill is very convenient if you're trying to excuse Israel's disputed genocide that is taking place.  

 

 

A person setting themselves on fire would be considered mentally ill. To politicize that tragedy is (imo) disrespectful to the family, who are for sure suffering their loss. 

[Super19]

32 minutes ago, Alflives said:

A person setting themselves on fire would be considered mentally ill. To politicize that tragedy is (imo) disrespectful to the family, who are for sure suffering their loss. 

A sign at Aaron's vigil in DC today:

 

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

A person setting themselves on fire would be considered mentally ill. To politicize that tragedy is (imo) disrespectful to the family, who are for sure suffering their loss. 

 

So you are just ignoring all the evidence I have provided that not all people who self immolate are mentally ill. 

Particularly those that do it for political purposes.

 

Are you trying to deny this was a political act ?

 

Again, are you a qualified mental health professional to make this diagnosis ?

 

Do you have access to Aaron's past mental health history ?

 

All I can find out about him that he was a social activist, he was extremely princpled, and he used to help the homeless in San Antonio, according to his friends. 

 

More information on self immolation as form of political protest.

 

Wiley Library 

 

Journal for the theory of social behaviour. 

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jtsb.12047

 

" Suicide as a form of political protest is a little studied social phenomenon that cannot be simply be dismissed as being as irrational or pathognomonic. We consider protest suicide to be a meaningful social action as purposive political act that is intended to change oppressive policies or practices. This paper synthesises theoretical propositions with suicide in general, and protest suicide in particular, so as  construct a general explanatory model of protest suicide as a social phenomenon. Then it analyzes protest suicide as a meaningful social action. People considering protest suicide have to discern the logic of the situation in which such action is to take place. This involves answering two fundamental questions: is suicide an acceptable course of social action? Is the envisaged protest suicide likely to achieve their hopes, aspirations and goals? How these questions are answered gives rise to a set of protest suicide archetypes. Our analysis generates a more sophisticated understanding of the potential reasons for, and motivations behind, protest suicide as a social phenomenon. "

 

 

It is people like you and at 

@Bob Long

that diminish Aaron's act. 

 

 

 

 

This guy, David Buckel, doesn't  sound mentally ill to me.

He also displays many of the same, little that we know, character traits of Aaron 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/15/david-buckel-lawyer-climate-change-protest

 

Early on the morning of 14 April 2018 Buckel - a 60 year old - gay right's attorney left his cozy garden surrounded Brooklyn house and walked to nearby prospect Park. He made his way to a stretch of grass, where he emailed media outlets a statement decrying humanity's passivity in the face of pollution and global warming.

 

 

A few minutes later he doused himself in gasoline and set himself on fire. 

 

" Most humans on the planet breathe air made unhealthy by fossil fuels, and many die early deaths as a result." His statement said.

My early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves. " 

 

With characteristic care he also left a short note at the scene for the emergency personnel

" I am David Buckel and I just killed myself by fire as a protest suicide," he wrote " I apologise to you for the mess " 

 

Again, let's not diminish the actions  of people like Aaron and David, by labelling them as mentally ill.

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

So you are just ignoring all the evidence I have provided that not all people who self immolate are mentally ill. 

Particularly those that do it for political purposes.

 

Are you trying to deny this was a political act ?

 

Again, are you a qualified mental health professional to make this diagnosis ?

 

Do you have access to Aaron's past mental health history ?

 

All I can find out about him that he was a social activist, he was extremely princpled, and he used to help the homeless in San Antonio, according to his friends. 

 

More information on self immolation as form of political protest.

 

Wiley Library 

 

Journal for the theory of social behaviour. 

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jtsb.12047

 

" Suicide as a form of political protest is a little studied social phenomenon that cannot be simply be dismissed as being as irrational or pathognomonic. We consider protest suicide to be a meaningful social action as purposive political act that is intended to change oppressive policies or practices. This paper synthesises theoretical propositions with suicide in general, and protest suicide in particular, so as  construct a general explanatory model of protest suicide as a social phenomenon. Then it analyzes protest suicide as a meaningful social action. People considering protest suicide have to discern the logic of the situation in which such action is to take place. This involves answering two fundamental questions: is suicide an acceptable course of social action? Is the envisaged protest suicide likely to achieve their hopes, aspirations and goals? How these questions are answered gives rise to a set of protest suicide archetypes. Our analysis generates a more sophisticated understanding of the potential reasons for, and motivations behind, protest suicide as a social phenomenon. "

 

 

It is people like you and at 

@Bob Long

that diminish Aaron's act. 

 

 

 

 

This guy, David Buckel, doesn't  sound mentally ill to me.

He also displays many of the same, little that we know, character traits of Aaron 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/15/david-buckel-lawyer-climate-change-protest

 

Early on the morning of 14 April 2018 Buckel - a 60 year old - gay right's attorney left his cozy garden surrounded Brooklyn house and walked to nearby prospect Park. He made his way to a stretch of grass, where he emailed media outlets a statement decrying humanity's passivity in the face of pollution and global warming.

 

 

A few minutes later he doused himself in gasoline and set himself on fire. 

 

" Most humans on the planet breathe air made unhealthy by fossil fuels, and many die early deaths as a result." His statement said.

My early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves. " 

 

With characteristic care he also left a short note at the scene for the emergency personnel

" I am David Buckel and I just killed myself by fire as a protest suicide," he wrote " I apologise to you for the mess " 

 

Again, let's not diminish the actions  of people like Aaron and David, by labelling them as mentally ill.

Good for them. I hope they get the Nobel Peace prize. Realty is that by tomorrow morning they won’t be remembered. 

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Good for them. I hope they get the Nobel Peace prize. Realty is that by tomorrow morning they won’t be remembered. 

 

I don't believe that this is good in anyway for " them ", or their loved ones and friends.

And the people who had to witness this, and the medical staff that had to treat him before he died.

 

As a person who lost a few friends to suicide when I was young, I find your comment callous and cold-hearted.

 

 

I find it very sad that people are driven to take their lives in such an extreme manner, to publicise their beliefs, about which they are obviously very passionate about.  

 

I don't believe Aaron should have taken his life.

I believe he should have used other methods to get his message across.

 

I can tell you this, as a person who has lost friends to suicide, you ask yourself, why didn't they turn to you for help ?

Why didn't they reach out ?

 

Nearly 40 years later I still ask myself, why a friend I knew from grade 2, 7 years old,  we were going to have our joint 21st birthday party together, took his life a couple of weeks before he was 21.

He had seemingly got his shit together, while many of us were still doing stupid shit.

In situations like Aaron's it's a bit easier as both a loved one, friend and someone who doesn't even know him, to know why he took his life.

 

 

I have posted information as to why some people feel driven to kill themselves this way, and why that particular form of death, is such a powerful way of sending their message. 

 

 

[Super19]

44 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Good for them. I hope they get the Nobel Peace prize. Realty is that by tomorrow morning they won’t be remembered. 

 

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

He was a member of the armed forces of the biggest supporter of Israel.

He was protesting not just the war, but his country's support of it.

 

 

 

Are you seriously contesting that committing or attempting to commit suicide (no matter what the reason is, unless you are terminally ill) is a sign of mental health issues?

[Warhippy]

37 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Are you seriously contesting that committing or attempting to commit suicide (no matter what the reason is, unless you are terminally ill) is a sign of mental health issues?

Are you seriously suggesting that a person needs to be mentally unwell (unless terminally ill) to commit or attempt to commit suicide?

 

I sincerely hope that's not the case.

[Spur1]

I have to go with Trump on this one. Loser. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Are you seriously contesting that committing or attempting to commit suicide (no matter what the reason is, unless you are terminally ill) is a sign of mental health issues?

 

I have given examples of people who committed self immolation as a form of Political protest, with evidence that they planned this with full knowledge of what they were doing. 

 

I will ask you were the 100 odd Tibetan  monks that self immolated in protest against Chinese rule all suffering from mental health issues ?

 

I have posted articles that self immolation has been a form of political and social protest for over 2000 years.

 

Scholarly articles on the subject of self immolation as a form of political/social protest.

 

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-terrible-act-of-reason-when-did-self-immolation-become-the-paramount-form-of-protest

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jtsb.12047

 

 

 

Are you stating that every single person who has self immolated, using it as a form of political or social statement is suffering from mental health issues ?

Without knowing their circumstances, mindset ? 

 

Do you have information about we don't about Aaron's mental health situation before this act ?

 

Are you trained in any mental health field  ? 

 

The woman who self immolated in Atlanta in December, in regards to this conflict wasn't accused of having mental health issues.

She was basically accused of being an anti semite.

 

That was what the Israeli consul general to the south east US basically stated. 

 

Will you believe an Iranians mans, Mohammad Moradi,  own words in regards to his protest suicide 

 

Protest suicide: considerations for psychiatrists and psychologists

 

 

 https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2023.1213420/full

 

On the 26th of December 2022, Mohammad Moradi, a 38 year old Iranian student living in France, died by suicide to bring global attention to Iranian protests against the ruling power. Before he threw himself into the Rhone river, Moradi shared a video and said, " when you see this I will be dead. I don't have any mental disorders or life problem. I have a good life, but I can't be unresponsive to what is happening in Iran. I want to sacrifice myself for my country "

 

Sacrifice yourself for your country and/or beliefs while violently killing others, and you are called a hero.

 

Sacrifice your life for your country and/or beliefs while non violently hurting others except for yourself, and some people will label you mentally ill. 

 

Go figure

 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Not sure this is the greatest source?

 

Edited February 27 by Canuck Surfer

[Bob Long]

6 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Are you seriously suggesting that a person needs to be mentally unwell (unless terminally ill) to commit or attempt to commit suicide?

 

I sincerely hope that's not the case.

 

Needs? No, not necessarily. To me this was clearly a vulnerable kid in this case. 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Needs? No, not necessarily. To me this was clearly a vulnerable kid in this case. 

100%. Clearly mentally ill. 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Alflives said:

100%. Clearly mentally ill. 

 

It really shows how far apart we can be on this topic when people can't even agree that this kid needed help.

 

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

It really shows how far apart we can be on this topic when people can't even agree that this kid needed help.

 

This is incredibly true. That guy was off his rocker to think that lighting himself on fire would move the needle one iota. he needed emergency mental health care, not a platform to brutalize and terrify others with his live death by fire. What a shame. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

This is incredibly true. That guy was off his rocker to think that lighting himself on fire would move the needle one iota. he needed emergency mental health care, not a platform to brutalize and terrify others with his live death by fire. What a shame. 

 

A gen z kid, with everything in front of him is such a loss. It's sad and sickening to me to see people use it for political feels. 

 

But hey Hamas praised him so that's something. 

 

 

[Super19]

How many lies were told? How much propaganda was spread? That NYT piece got dismantled as well:

 

 

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

This is incredibly true. That guy was off his rocker to think that lighting himself on fire would move the needle one iota. he needed emergency mental health care, not a platform to brutalize and terrify others with his live death by fire. What a shame. 

 

This is an interview with this man, Dr Michael Biggs, an associate professor of Sociology who has investigated protest by self immolation across the world, as well as other forms of social/political protest.

 

https://www.stx.ox.ac.uk/people/michael-biggs

 

 

Why self immolation is used as a form of protest

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/27/1234114390/why-self-immolation-is-used-as-a-form-of-protest

 

 

" INSKEEP: I should state the obvious. We are taking about suicide, which also has a stated political purpose. So do you see self immolation as any different from other cases where people commit harm to themselves or others?

 

BIGGS: It is. It is very different because in this case, people are acting on behalf - the individuals are acting on behalf of a political cause. And so in most cases, there is no clear previous psychological instability. And so often it's very normal people, very-people who are committed to a political cause, who take the most dramatic step they can imagine to send a communication about the importance of that cause. 

 

INSKEEP: I think you are telling me that you do not see a mental health crisis here. You see someone that is making a very deliberate political statement. 

 

BIGGS: Yes. I mean of course, it varies depending on the case, but and-of course, the actual interpretation of the action depends on how sympathetic you are. If you are very sympathetic to the person's cause, then you'll say this person is a great martyr for the cause and a hero. If you are unsympathetic, you'll just say he was just or she was just mentally ill. 

 

INSKEEP: You know, when I heard about this incident, I immediately thought about a Buddhist monk who set himself on fire in Vietnam in 1963 to protest the US led government in Vietnam. This was before I was born, but I read about it. And there's something about this particular kind of act that sticks in the mind. Is this often the case?

 

BIGGS: Yes. Of course, and that's why where having this conversation today, is precisely why it's so dramatic, and so-such a terrible action that it takes public attention. And that's the whole point of it. 

 

INSKEEP: Wasn't the Arab Spring set off by an act of self immolation?

 

BIGGS: Yes, Yes,  exactly. In Tunisia, Bouazizi set himself on fire, although it's not clear that he was actually-had a broader political motive. May have just been an act of frustration about his particular treatment by the police. But that led, of course, to the revolt in Tunisia and the Arab Spring.

 

INSKEEP: Oh, you underline a big insight there, I think, which is true of many protests, many public events. It's not merely what the person does, it is how people interpret it afterward and make meaning out of it.

 

BIGGS: Absolutely. Yes. That is crucial. Although of course the individual can-or herself- can change that, by the way that they, the note that they leave or the particular location they choose for the action as well. 

 

INSKEEP: So how would you fit Sundays action with this US Air Force airman stood outside the Israeli embassy and set

himself on fire, was pronounced dead some hours later on Sunday-how would you fit that action into the broader history of self immolation?

 

BIGGS: Well, the clearest parallel would be Norman Morrison in 1965, who was a Quaker, and he set himself on fire outside the Pentagon to protest the war against Vietnam. And that had a comparable impact on-in the news at the time. And obviously he was copying the, self- consciously echoing the actions of the 

Buddhist monks.

 

INSKEEP: Is it common that this becomes a major event, that may effect the debate a long time after the incident? 

 

BIGGS: It has a bigger impact in countries outside the west, in countries like South Korea, Vietnam, Tibet and India. 

 

INSKEEP: Why would that be?

 

BIGGS: In America, it's often seen as-or in western countries, it's often seen as too extreme because of the way we react to the method of dying by burning. And also in a democracy, we just see it as there are other ways of making our voice heard. " 

 

 

So the key takeaways from a this interview with an associate professor who has studied this subject of self immolation extensively. 

 

" And so it's clear, that there is no clear previous psychological instability. And so often it's very normal people, who are committed to a political cause, who take the most dramatic step they can imagine to send a communication about the importance of that cause. "

 

" I think you are telling me that you don't necessarily see a mental health crisis here. You see someone that is making a very deliberate political statement 

 

Yes, of course, it varies depending on the case, but, - and, of course, the actual interpretation of the action depends on how sympathetic you are. If you are very sympathetic to the person's cause, then you'll say this person is a great martyr for the cause and a hero "

 

I personally have not called Aaron a Martyr or hero.

I have stated I wished he would have used other means to convey his message.

 

" If you're unsympathetic, you will say he was just or she was just mentally ill "

 

That's the majority view of this board, who by the way are unsympathetic to his cause.

 

 

And it's actually ludicrous that people don't believe this was a political act.

 

And for making our voices heard in democracies, do you think Aaron felt that the protests that had been going in since the start of this conflict, in the US were being heeded ?

 

Fuck no they weren't.

You even have thousands of Isrealis/Jews protesting this conflict, and nothing has changed in regards to the humanitarian situation in Gaza.

That is only getting progressively worse. 

 

This is now three articles I have posted from sources that have studied this subject.

And they refute the claims made in this thread about people like

Aaron's mental health.

They also explain why some here in the "west" will label people who commit self immolation as mentally ill.

 

You do Aaron a great disservice by stating he is " off his rocker "

 

You might not agree with his actions, or the cause he was trying to bring people's attention to, however there is no need to abuse him.

 

As the Professor Biggs stated, that only highlights your bias.

[Optimist Prime]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

This is an interview with this man, Dr Michael Biggs, an associate professor of Sociology who has investigated protest by self immolation across the world, as well as other forms of social/political protest.

 

https://www.stx.ox.ac.uk/people/michael-biggs

 

 

Why self immolation is used as a form of protest

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/27/1234114390/why-self-immolation-is-used-as-a-form-of-protest

 

 

" INSKEEP: I should state the obvious. We are taking about suicide, which also has a stated political purpose. So do you see self immolation as any different from other cases where people commit harm to themselves or others?

 

BIGGS: It is. It is very different because in this case, people are acting on behalf - the individuals are acting on behalf of a political cause. And so in most cases, there is no clear previous psychological instability. And so often it's very normal people, very-people who are committed to a political cause, who take the most dramatic step they can imagine to send a communication about the importance of that cause. 

 

INSKEEP: I think you are telling me that you do not see a mental health crisis here. You see someone that is making a very deliberate political statement. 

 

BIGGS: Yes. I mean of course, it varies depending on the case, but and-of course, the actual interpretation of the action depends on how sympathetic you are. If you are very sympathetic to the person's cause, then you'll say this person is a great martyr for the cause and a hero. If you are unsympathetic, you'll just say he was just or she was just mentally ill. 

 

INSKEEP: You know, when I heard about this incident, I immediately thought about a Buddhist monk who set himself on fire in Vietnam in 1963 to protest the US led government in Vietnam. This was before I was born, but I read about it. And there's something about this particular kind of act that sticks in the mind. Is this often the case?

 

BIGGS: Yes. Of course, and that's why where having this conversation today, is precisely why it's so dramatic, and so-such a terrible action that it takes public attention. And that's the whole point of it. 

 

INSKEEP: Wasn't the Arab Spring set off by an act of self immolation?

 

BIGGS: Yes, Yes,  exactly. In Tunisia, Bouazizi set himself on fire, although it's not clear that he was actually-had a broader political motive. May have just been an act of frustration about his particular treatment by the police. But that led, of course, to the revolt in Tunisia and the Arab Spring.

 

INSKEEP: Oh, you underline a big insight there, I think, which is true of many protests, many public events. It's not merely what the person does, it is how people interpret it afterward and make meaning out of it.

 

BIGGS: Absolutely. Yes. That is crucial. Although of course the individual can-or herself- can change that, by the way that they, the note that they leave or the particular location they choose for the action as well. 

 

INSKEEP: So how would you fit Sundays action with this US Air Force airman stood outside the Israeli embassy and set

himself on fire, was pronounced dead some hours later on Sunday-how would you fit that action into the broader history of self immolation?

 

BIGGS: Well, the clearest parallel would be Norman Morrison in 1965, who was a Quaker, and he set himself on fire outside the Pentagon to protest the war against Vietnam. And that had a comparable impact on-in the news at the time. And obviously he was copying the, self- consciously echoing the actions of the 

Buddhist monks.

 

INSKEEP: Is it common that this becomes a major event, that may effect the debate a long time after the incident? 

 

BIGGS: It has a bigger impact in countries outside the west, in countries like South Korea, Vietnam, Tibet and India. 

 

INSKEEP: Why would that be?

 

BIGGS: In America, it's often seen as-or in western countries, it's often seen as too extreme because of the way we react to the method of dying by burning. And also in a democracy, we just see it as there are other ways of making our voice heard. " 

 

 

So the key takeaways from a this interview with an associate professor who has studied this subject of self immolation extensively. 

 

" And so it's clear, that there is no clear previous psychological instability. And so often it's very normal people, who are committed to a political cause, who take the most dramatic step they can imagine to send a communication about the importance of that cause. "

 

" I think you are telling me that you don't necessarily see a mental health crisis here. You see someone that is making a very deliberate political statement 

 

Yes, of course, it varies depending on the case, but, - and, of course, the actual interpretation of the action depends on how sympathetic you are. If you are very sympathetic to the person's cause, then you'll say this person is a great martyr for the cause and a hero "

 

I personally have not called Aaron a Martyr or hero.

I have stated I wished he would have used other means to convey his message.

 

" If you're unsympathetic, you will say he was just or she was just mentally ill "

 

That's the majority view of this board, who by the way are unsympathetic to his cause.

 

 

And it's actually ludicrous that people don't believe this was a political act.

 

And for making our voices heard in democracies, do you think Aaron felt that the protests that had been going in since the start of this conflict, in the US were being heeded ?

 

Fuck no they weren't.

You even have thousands of Isrealis/Jews protesting this conflict, and nothing has changed in regards to the humanitarian situation in Gaza.

That is only getting progressively worse. 

 

This is now three articles I have posted from sources that have studied this subject.

And they refute the claims made in this thread about people like

Aaron's mental health.

They also explain why some here in the "west" will label people who commit self immolation as mentally ill.

 

You do Aaron a great disservice by stating he is " off his rocker "

 

You might not agree with his actions, or the cause he was trying to bring people's attention to, however there is no need to abuse him.

 

As the Professor Biggs stated, that only highlights your bias.

Yeah one highlight of my repeat nightmares involves naked Somalian dudes dousing themselves and racing down an earthern berm to attack our wooden redoubt. I will skip the horrible details, but all that guy accomplished was triggering me.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

Yeah one highlight of my repeat nightmares involves naked Somalian dudes dousing themselves and racing down an earthern berm to attack our wooden redoubt. I will skip the horrible details, but all that guy accomplished was triggering me.

 

I am very sorry to hear about this.

I don't want to even try to imagine something like that.

 

I will not continue this discussion with you any further, except to say how our personal experiences, impact how we view events from those moments on. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am very sorry to hear about this.

I don't want to even try to imagine something like that.

 

I will not continue this discussion with you any further, except to say how our personal experiences, impact how we view events from those moments on. 

 

 

Thanks, that never happened but I have dreamt it in various ways over 1000 times. I will disqualify myself from an opinion on this guys regrettable suicide. Moving on.

[Super19]