Hamas attacking Israel

[eeeeeeeeergh]

39 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

 

you obviously missed what i said about it being wrong to punish israelis for the sins of their fathers - hence a two state solution being the only moral solution

 

but yeah, i do think we owe restitution to indigenous peoples for the criminal way our country was founded. 

[moosehead]

Todays Terrorist acts are just terrible.  So much suffering  and so many victims.     The end result will be retaliation and even  more suffering.  Peace needs to be negotiated.    

 

ISRAEL AND OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES 2022

Israel’s continuing oppressive and discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted a system of apartheid, and Israeli officials committed the crime of apartheid under international law. Israeli forces launched a three-day offensive on the occupied Gaza Strip in August during which they committed apparent war crimes. This compounded the impact of a 15-year ongoing Israeli blockade that amounts to illegal collective punishment and further fragments Palestinian territory. Israel escalated its crackdown on Palestinians’ freedom of association. It also imposed arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement and closures that amounted to collective punishment, mainly in the northern West Bank, ostensibly in response to armed attacks by Palestinians on Israeli soldiers and settlers. The year saw a rise in the number of Palestinians unlawfully killed and seriously injured by Israeli forces during raids in the West Bank. Administrative detentions of Palestinians hit a 14-year high, and torture and other ill-treatment continued. Israeli forces demolished al-Araqib village in the Negev/Naqab for the 211th time. A further 35 Palestinian-Bedouin towns in Israel were still denied formal recognition and residents faced possible forcible transfer. Authorities failed to process asylum claims for thousands of asylum seekers, and imposed restrictions on their right to work.

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Edited October 8, 2023 by moosehead

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Ilunga]

 

" So the Irish hate the Irish 

And it's Arab versus Jew 

You're cactus if you're Kurdish

And by Christ I'm sick of you "

 

Lines from a 25 year old anti - racist song by TISM.

 

At least the Irish have got their sh!t together.

 

I feel for the Kurds the most.

They cop it from all sides.

 

[Sharpshooter]

40 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

 

Your anger and frustration is misplaced. 
 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

Moderator Comment - Please  don't make me hurt you. 
 

You all know what it means to disagree without any name-calling or any inciting. 
 

Trust me. This Thread is totally Moderated and Monitored. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Your anger and frustration is misplaced. 
 

 

 

 

I wonder how many people actually know the history, even just the last few decades behind this.

 

Then when Trump emboldened the Isrealis by putting the US embassy in Jerusalem.

How the illegal settlements have increased to the point both our governments,the G7, the US and European foreign ministers have been forced to criticise Isreal. 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-16/australia-condemns-israel-over-occupied-west-bank-settlements/101986598

 

 

[moosehead]

So much pain and suffering in the world these days......

 

Hoping that soon we can start to make progress and begin  to see peace in all of these terrible conflicts that are happening in the world in our times. 

 

Canada working on Truth and Reconciliatiion...  hopefully other nations can look at their past and make a commitment to acknowledge deeds that were done and find a path to move forward.

Edited October 8, 2023 by moosehead

[Sharpshooter]

8 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I wonder how many people actually know the history, even just the last few decades behind this.

 

Then when Trump emboldened the Isrealis by putting the US embassy in Jerusalem.

How the illegal settlements have increased to the point both our governments,the G7, the US and European foreign ministers have been forced to criticise Isreal. 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-16/australia-condemns-israel-over-occupied-west-bank-settlements/101986598

 

 

I promise you @RomanPer knows. 
 

The issue is, can he keep his anger and frustration in check in order to help us all understand. 
 

Or is @RomanPer just going to be one of those guys that doesn’t help us all understand?

 

I hope we get the latter Roman, that I’ve always respected, and not the one that can’t keep his shit together when dealing with serious matters. 
 

We’ll see. 
 

 

 

[RomanPer]

8 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

I promise you @RomanPer knows. 
 

The issue is, can he keep his anger and frustration in check in order to help us all understand. 
 

Or is @RomanPer just going to be one of those guys that doesn’t help us all understand?

 

I hope we get the latter Roman, that I’ve always respected, and not the one that can’t keep his shit together when dealing with serious matters. 
 

We’ll see. 
 

 

 

See, the problem starts with the very first statement “emboldened the Israelis by putting US embassy in Jerusalem”. Jerusalem was a capital of Jewish state long before any of the modern day countries existed (perhaps with exception of modern day Italy and Greece). Last time I checked, all other countries have foreign embassies in their capital cities.

 

I personally also don’t support expansion of settlements. But I can also see the other side. As I mentioned before - Israel removed all its settlements from Gaza back in 2005. Did it help the peace? No, it was  looked upon by Hamas as Israeli weakness and yet another step on the way to their ultimate goal, which is full destruction of Israel. There can be no negotiations between two sides in which one side clearly states that no matter what, they want to exterminate the other side.

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

I promise you @RomanPer knows. 
 

The issue is, can he keep his anger and frustration in check in order to help us all understand. 
 

Or is @RomanPer just going to be one of those guys that doesn’t help us all understand?

 

I hope we get the latter Roman, that I’ve always respected, and not the one that can’t keep his shit together when dealing with serious matters. 
 

We’ll see. 
 

 

 

 

As you know I am well versed in the history behind this, dating back to what has been described as the first modern act of terrorism, the bombing of the King David hotel.

 

There is no condoning violence of any sort unless it is in the last defence of those you love. 

 

I wonder how we would feel if we had our homes/ freedom taken from us, forced to live in sub human conditions. 

This does not condone what the Palestinians have done.

I was disgusted to just see the leader of Iran's comments. 

The celebrations in Iran, Iraq, Yemen. 

The circle of hatred keeps continuing. 

 

This is where I get your disgust for religion, it is at the heart of this conflict. 

 

I know how Roman would feel and I really do empathise with him.

People are being killed. 

I empathise with all human beings who are suffering.

As I have stated, I am not an Australian, I am a human being that shares this planet with nearly 8 billion other human beings.

 

Maybe if everyone all thought this way there would be less wars/ killings.

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

10 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

See, the problem starts with the very first statement “emboldened the Israelis by putting US embassy in Jerusalem”. Jerusalem was a capital of Jewish state long before any of the modern day countries existed (perhaps with exception of modern day Italy and Greece). Last time I checked, all other countries have foreign embassies in their capital cities.

 

I personally also don’t support expansion of settlements. But I can also see the other side. As I mentioned before - Israel removed all its settlements from Gaza back in 2005. Did it help the peace? No, it was  looked upon by Hamas as Israeli weakness and yet another step on the way to their ultimate goal, which is full destruction of Israel. There can be no negotiations between two sides in which one side clearly states that no matter what, they want to exterminate the other side.

If you see the other side even for a moment, then that’s something. 
 

It’s a path forward. 
 

Unfortunately, this opinion isn’t shared in the politics or real life stuff when it comes to what’s happening at this moment. 
 

I hope for the best for your family. I’m sure you know I’m genuine when I say that. 

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

See, the problem starts with the very first statement “emboldened the Israelis by putting US embassy in Jerusalem”. Jerusalem was a capital of Jewish state long before any of the modern day countries existed (perhaps with exception of modern day Italy and Greece). Last time I checked, all other countries have foreign embassies in their capital cities.

 

I personally also don’t support expansion of settlements. But I can also see the other side. As I mentioned before - Israel removed all its settlements from Gaza back in 2005. Did it help the peace? No, it was  looked upon by Hamas as Israeli weakness and yet another step on the way to their ultimate goal, which is full destruction of Israel. There can be no negotiations between two sides in which one side clearly states that no matter what, they want to exterminate the other side.

 

You know why most nations have their embassies in Tel Aviv,it's one of the reasons behind a two state solution. 

Also the Knesset  passed the Jerusalem law in 1980.

So no in the history of the modern state of Israel Jerusalem has not always been the capital of Isreal.

 

If it was a road to peace I would fully advocate for all countries to place their embassies in Jerusalem. 

 

Do you believe that Isreal should share Jerusalem with the Palestinians ?

 

 

 

[Mike Vanderhoek]

10 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Have you personally been to Israel or you just parrot pro-Palestinian propaganda?

 

 

 

Me physically being to Israel or not ( no I have not by the way ) has what to do with my comments ?

 

I am not pro either side of this conflict. Simple time required to read literature on this as well as view reports from various sides can educate one on what is going on.

 

The " have you been there " argument to validate discussion among interested and inquiring minds is lame.

 

Factually unfortunately Israel has been violating rules and rulings by the international community to expand their footprint by occupying and oppressing. That has consequences.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jaimito]

 

 

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

Doubtful. This would take way too many people to pull off, and it would take only one person to blow the whistle. 
 

Again, it was a failure, likely not a nefarious plot. 

 

As this article illustrates there has been infighting in Isreals Army and security services.

 

My guess is the  controversial policies of Netanyahu, the middle easts version of trump.

 

https://fortune.com/2023/10/07/attacks-on-israel-suggest-shocking-failure-of-intelligence-agencies/

 

 

[RomanPer]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You know why most nations have their embassies in Tel Aviv,it's one of the reasons behind a two state solution. 

Also the Knesset  passed the Jerusalem law in 1980.

So no in the history of the modern state of Israel Jerusalem has not always been the capital of Isreal.

 

If it was a road to peace I would fully advocate for all countries to place their embassies in Jerusalem. 

 

Do you believe that Isreal should share Jerusalem with the Palestinians ?

 

 

 

 

It entirely depends on Palestinians. If they prove with their acts that they don’t have hidden agenda to eventually kill all the Jews, if they truly want peace and coexistence - i have zero problem with sharing. The problem at the moment is there’s no trust and history of militant Islam is not leaving a lot of space for trust. Look at what ISIS does with Christian religious artifacts. What gives you confidence that it’ll be different in Jerusalem under Palestinian rule? At the same time, Christian Palestinians in Nazaret or Haifa have total freedom to practice their religion under Israeli rule.

 

There are practically no Israelis who don’t want peace (not counting a few crazies). The main divide in Israel between left and right wings is whether they trust the other side or not. The main problem with Palestinian leadership at the moment is that they are either fanatics (e.g. Hamas) or corrupt to no end (Abbas). I worked in Kibbutz Kfar Etzion between 1994 and 1997. It’s in a settlement between Bethlehem and Hebron. We had a lot of Palestinian customers from both of these Palestinian cities and these were the early years of Palestinian autonomy. I clearly remember how almost all of them complained how much worse it became under the autonomy - everything became corrupt, every question required “greasing” someone. They all were saying that they really would prefer to have Israeli rule to come back.

 

Did Israel make mistakes in its relationships with Palestinians? Absolutely. Do i believe that there’s a deliberate policy to physically hurt Palestinian civilian population? Absolutely not.

 

Do you know that Israeli officers and soldiers go to jail every year after being prosecuted for discrimination or crimes against civilian Palestinians? Can you tell me there’s at least one such case on the other side?

[RomanPer]

11 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

As this article illustrates there has been infighting in Isreals Army and security services.

 

My guess is the  controversial policies of Netanyahu, the middle easts version of trump.

 

https://fortune.com/2023/10/07/attacks-on-israel-suggest-shocking-failure-of-intelligence-agencies/

 

 

 

I agree with you on this. I believe the major intelligence fuck up like this this is entirely on Netanyahu.

[RomanPer]

37 minutes ago, Mike Vanderhoek said:

 

Me physically being to Israel or not ( no I have not by the way ) has what to do with my comments ?

 

I am not pro either side of this conflict. Simple time required to read literature on this as well as view reports from various sides can educate one on what is going on.

 

The " have you been there " argument to validate discussion among interested and inquiring minds is lame.

 

Factually unfortunately Israel has been violating rules and rulings by the international community to expand their footprint by occupying and oppressing. That has consequences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My suggestion meant that if you go to Israel, you will see something completely different from what you see from here. Obviously, it’s your choice. But it’s the only country in the list of “bad” countries that you can freely visit and leave without fear of prosecution.

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

It entirely depends on Palestinians. If they prove with their acts that they don’t have hidden agenda to eventually kill all the Jews, if they truly want peace and coexistence - i have zero problem with sharing. The problem at the moment is there’s no trust and history of militant Islam is not leaving a lot of space for trust. Look at what ISIS does with Christian religious artifacts. What gives you confidence that it’ll be different in Jerusalem under Palestinian rule? At the same time, Christian Palestinians in Nazaret or Haifa have total freedom to practice their religion under Israeli rule.

 

There are practically no Israelis who don’t want peace (not counting a few crazies). The main divide in Israel between left and right wings is whether they trust the other side or not. The main problem with Palestinian leadership at the moment is that they are either fanatics (e.g. Hamas) or corrupt to no end (Abbas). I worked in Kibbutz Kfar Etzion between 1994 and 1997. It’s in a settlement between Bethlehem and Hebron. We had a lot of Palestinian customers from both of these Palestinian cities and these were the early years of Palestinian autonomy. I clearly remember how almost all of them complained how much worse it became under the autonomy - everything became corrupt, every question required “greasing” someone. They all were saying that they really would prefer to have Israeli rule to come back.

 

Did Israel make mistakes in its relationships with Palestinians? Absolutely. Do i believe that there’s a deliberate policy to physically hurt Palestinian civilian population? Absolutely not.

 

Do you know that Israeli officers and soldiers go to jail every year after being prosecuted for discrimination or crimes against civilian Palestinians? Can you tell me there’s at least one such case on the other side?

 

Well after what you have stated, and I trust what you state, it almost sound likes like there should be a one state solution.

 

Palestinians become fully equal in all regards to Isrealis,they slowly gain the trust to help govern at certain levels. 

Then have a voice in parliament.

Trust is earnt.

 

Share the home they both have inhabited for time immemorial. 

 

I saw your post about no more Mfers and I agree, no race of people has been persecuted for so long culminating in one of the most horrifying acts in human history.

 

However things have changed.

Most governments have come out in support of Isreal.

 

I do believe, as you state, that Hamas is not only attacking Isreal but are also are sh!tty leaders of their people.

The same could be said about Netanyahu.

 

And no I don't know of Palestinians prosecuting Palestinians for crimes against Isrealis.

[RomanPer]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Well after what you have stated, and I trust what you state, it almost sound likes like there should be a one state solution.

 

Palestinians become fully equal in all regards to Isrealis,they slowly gain the trust to help govern at certain levels. 

Then have a voice in parliament.

Trust is earnt.

 

Share the home they both have inhabited for time immemorial. 

 

I saw your post about no more Mfers and I agree, no race of people has been persecuted for so long culminating in one of the most horrifying acts in human history.

 

However things have changed.

Most governments have come out in support of Isreal.

 

I do believe, as you state, that Hamas is not only attacking Isreal but are also are sh!tty leaders of their people.

The same could be said about Netanyahu.

 

And no I don't know of Palestinians prosecuting Palestinians for crimes against Isrealis.

 

Well, Israeli Arabs already have voice in parliament. Israel had Arab ministers. Arab doctors work in Israeli hospitals and treat both Jews and Arabs. The issue is not with Palestinians in general. The issue is with Palestinian leadership and their goals and ties with Iran.

 

Speaking of Iran - before the ayatollahs, Iran and Israel were close allies, not sure if you knew that.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Well, Israeli Arabs already have voice in parliament. Israel had Arab ministers. Arab doctors work in Israeli hospitals and treat both Jews and Arabs. The issue is not with Palestinians in general. The issue is with Palestinian leadership and their goals and ties with Iran.

 

Speaking of Iran - before the ayatollahs, Iran and Israel were close allies, not sure if you knew that.

 

Yes I did.

However the Shah was so corrupt he virtually opened the door for the fanatic clerics to walk in and take control.

 

I have a great deal of respect, historically speaking, for Mohammad Mosaddegh, a democratically elected leader of Iran, who, unfornately was overthrown in a CIA backed coup.

[Canuck Surfer]

18 hours ago, Scottish Canuck 2.0 said:

Look at what Israel has done and continues to do. It isn’t a stretch to call it an apartheid regime and the illegal, expansionist settler policy should have been more widely criticised by the international community a long time ago.

 

That in now way justifies what Hamas did this morning, but there is no right side of history in this situation.

 

There were Jews, Christians & Palestinians in Jerusalem 2000 years ago. Territorial claims which makes it different than whites ruling black South Africans in Apartheid? That said, here is a UN article last week acknowledging crimes by Israel. Displacing and killing people for your own place in the world is not a good look.

 

This does not assuage guilt of those opposed to Israeli existence as a people in this region. Many of those backing this weekends attacks, further are not Palestinian, nor Lebanese. Would greedily grab control of all. Israel builds a bigger iron curtain to survive? 

[Jester13]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:49 AM, Scottish Canuck 2.0 said:

It’s terrible. Civilians should never be targeted and this is going to cause absolute carnage throughout that region.

 

Nobody can condone violence on this scale, but Israel has to accept an element of responsibility for this. They’ve trampled on the necks of the Palestinians for decades, illegally seized their land, herded them into smaller and smaller areas and brutally oppressed anyone who dare oppose them there.

 

The result is that Palestinians are born to hate anything Israeli. It was sadly inevitable.

I don't buy this stance. Indigenous peoples in Canada have experienced the same: colonialists stole their lands, their children, their autonomy. But they never turned into terrorists and created carnage like Hamas. They instead chose the peace and politics path and incrementally have regained their cultures and power in society - granted, there is still so much further to go, but Hannah Arendt once said, "You can't fight violence with violence." 

 

Israelis have been the most persecuted people in human history, yet antisemitism still remains and they get blamed again when something like this happens. Are Israelis teaching Palestinian children to hate them? Are Israelis the ones giving arms to Hamas?

 

I'm centre-left politically, and blaming Israel for these attacks and all the violence is leftist bullshit.