Hamas attacking Israel

[Ryan Strome]

13 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

 

Just a specious technique to discredit someone. Again, not legitimate. 

Says the king of legitimacy. Gotcha

[nuckin_futz]

Getting the feeling Gaza City may resemble Mariupol when all is said and done.

[Inkidu]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

Says the king of legitimacy. Gotcha

 

I'm just stating the obvious -- to most people

[Ryan Strome]

Just now, Inkidu said:

 

I'm just stating the obvious -- to most people

Which is exactly what I was doing but then you came in about your legitimacy nonsense. Anyways, let's stay on topic. I don't have the time and energy for people like you and you probably don't have the time and energy for people like me.

[Canuck Surfer]

19 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

It would definitely be different. Fatah are just corrupt, they only care about money for themselves. Hamas are ideological fanatics with a single goal in mind.

 

While I don't view Israel as guilt free, at all.  I remain of the opinion the dictator warlords of many ME populations are the key problem.  

 

2 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

There is ethnic cleansing taking place, on an ongoing basis, in India over time eternal.  It has among its most aggressive leaders in in decades. If not longer.

 

Turning a blind eye leaves people dead, forgotten! 

[Jaimito]

A primer 

 

 

 

[Provost]

41 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I have a long term view on the Middle East. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Jewish parents. All of his friends and disciples were Jewish. 
 

The land that is currently called Israel was occupied by the Jews over 2000 years ago. It is the Holy Land. It is sacred. The Kingdom of Israel was around long before the state of Palestine. As we all know, wars happen and land gets taken and occupied. The land known as Israel has had many occupiers over the last two thousand years. 
 

At the end of the day, the Jewish people are surrounded by Arabs. It is their sole existence to keep their Holy Land. Without it the Jews would be wiped out from the earth. 
 

I understand what has happened since  WW2. The Palestinian people certainly need land of their own to call home. And so do the Jewish people. That’s why there needs to be a two state solution. 
 

This cannot happen however if one side wants to eliminate the other side from the earth. That is the problem with Hamas. 
 

As for the “freedom fighters” statement, I will agree with you 100% that brainwashing may not have been the appropriate term for me to use. I come from the western world so I do have preconceived ideas of what Hamas and Hezbollah and Al Qaeda are all about. And I can freely admit that our media have also brainwashed us to a certain degree. The US does not have clean hands either. They are the only country in history to actually use a nuclear weapon during war. They are as dirty as everyone else to be totally honest with you. 
 

I can understand why the Arab people stand with the terrorists. Like you said they run the countries and supply them with food, shelter and everything else. They are the government.  But at the end of the day they still have the mentality of terrorists. A normal government would not tell the other side that they want them eliminated from the earth. 
 

I still stand by my comment that you can’t negotiate with terrorists, or in this case a terrorist organization that wants to wipe the other side from the earth. 
 

This is why there is never peace in the Middle East. It goes back thousands of years and there has been too much bloodshed to have a peaceful resolution. 

I think you are conflating Zionism or Israeli with being Jewish.  It is Zionism that these organizations are fighting against and not for wiping Jews off the planet like you suggested, it is the occupation of their land by a bunch of folks from Europe.  No one in Israel had to confirm any specific genetic or historic connection for their family to the Middle East to be eligible for the Law of Return (heck, they changed the rules on that numerous times for whatever was convenient at the moment)... if you were Jewish you got to go there and take over the home of an Arab.  It didn't matter if you were Polish, American, Irish, German, Russian... or whatever.  You could have been Japanese and converted to Judaism... or even be married to someone Jewish and you got to automatically become an Israeli and take the land and homeof someone who's families had lived there continuously for thousands of years who were expelled.

Only about 20% of Jewish people live in Israel.

The land in question has had many people before and after the different Israeli kingdoms.  You can't pick one (200-300 year long) point in time in the last several thousand years and say they "own" it.  Multiple faiths consider it their holy land.  I don't believe any magic book gives one religious sect some sort of "sacred" right to oppress another people.  When it was the ancient kingdom of Israel, the people in it weren't Jewish.  It was a polytheistic kingdom or various gods and natural dieties.

Israel exists now, and even if you can reasonably argue how unfair or unjust the circumstances that made it come to be.... a reasonable peace plan would include it continuing to exist.  The same goes to Palestinians and other Arabs though.  Illegal settlements and oppression to wipe them out and take more and more of their land is absolutely the same as you are talking about being the sin of Hamas.  Israel does not recognize Palestine as having a right to exist, and most certainly not its recognized borders.  They want to wipe Arabs out of the region.  They just have massive firepower given to them by other countries and more sophisticated tools to accomplish their aims.

[Ilunga]

45 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Your choice of words, not mine.

 

I was referring to their own country, sovereign borders , rights, ability to conduct trade, its own legal responsibilities. Liberties not offered now. Not part of Egypt. I would wish the same for Kurdish people and others. Considering Hamas? As I would Hezbollah, perhaps as part of Lebanon should they be wanted. Independence for West Bank an issue too tricky for me where I would prefer a multicultural solution. Should a peace treaty be agreed; part and parcel agree to a full arms embargo, perhaps a UN peace keeping force for a reasonable period of time; like Germany & Japan after WWII. Kurds, who in a different light probably deserve the right to defend themselves.

 

Trials for war criminals amongst & again UN monitoring to set up administration, ideally democracy, so said criminals don't just become dictators & warlords all over. 

 

Actual solutions.

You used the word solution in regards to a group of people, all I stated is that it always reminds me of the final solution.

Which it did.

[RomanPer]

10 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

A primer 

 

 

 

 

While I disagree with some of the parts of this video in that it oversimplifies some of the things, I think for someone without any background, it's not a bad quick history.

[RupertKBD]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

At the end of the day, the Jewish people are surrounded by Arabs. It is their sole existence to keep their Holy Land. Without it the Jews would be wiped out from the earth.

 

I'm not going to debate your entire post, but the bolded line struck me....

 

I understand why the Jews would want to protect Israel, but don't you think the "wiped out from the earth" line is a tad melodramatic? AFAIK, there are lots of Jews in New York, Miami, Montreal, etc....

 

It would be major blow to lose their "holy land", but I think Judaism would survive....

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Provost said:

I think you are conflating Zionism or Israeli with being Jewish.  It is Zionism that these organizations are fighting against and not for wiping Jews off the planet like you suggested, it is the occupation of their land by a bunch of folks from Europe.  No one in Israel had to confirm any specific genetic or historic connection for their family to the Middle East to be eligible for the Law of Return (heck, they changed the rules on that numerous times for whatever was convenient at the moment)... if you were Jewish you got to go there and take over the home of an Arab.  It didn't matter if you were Polish, American, Irish, German, Russian... or whatever.  You could have been Japanese and converted to Judaism... or even be married to someone Jewish and you got to automatically become an Israeli and take the land and homeof someone who's families had lived there continuously for thousands of years who were expelled.

Only about 20% of Jewish people live in Israel.

The land in question has had many people before and after the different Israeli kingdoms.  You can't pick one (200-300 year long) point in time in the last several thousand years and say they "own" it.  Multiple faiths consider it their holy land.  I don't believe any magic book gives one religious sect some sort of "sacred" right to oppress another people.  When it was the ancient kingdom of Israel, the people in it weren't Jewish.  It was a polytheistic kingdom or various gods and natural dieties.

Israel exists now, and even if you can reasonably argue how unfair or unjust the circumstances that made it come to be.... a reasonable peace plan would include it continuing to exist.  The same goes to Palestinians and other Arabs though.  Illegal settlements and oppression to wipe them out and take more and more of their land is absolutely the same as you are talking about being the sin of Hamas.  Israel does not recognize Palestine as having a right to exist, and most certainly not its recognized borders.  They want to wipe Arabs out of the region.  They just have massive firepower given to them by other countries and more sophisticated tools to accomplish their aims.

 

Talking about the existence of Isreal and Zionists groups.

A non Zionist group, The Freedom League For Jewish Territorial Colonization was offered 16,500 Square Kilometres in the north west of Australia.

It was called the Kimberly plan 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Plan

 

Our government eventually canned the idea. 

 

Imagine if this had gone through.

The amount of lives saved.

8 less wars, a couple of Intifadas.

[RupertKBD]

49 minutes ago, Rubik said:

let's see if this war will last more than 6 days this time lol

 

Not sure this is something to laugh about....

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I'm not going to debate your entire post, but the bolded line struck me....

 

I understand why the Jews would want to protect Israel, but don't you think the "wiped out from the earth" line is a tad melodramatic? AFAIK, there are lots of Jews in New York, Miami, Montreal, etc....

 

It would be major blow to lose their "holy land", but I think Judaism would survive....

 

More Jewish people live outside of Israel than within it. 

Just over 7 million Isrealis live in Isreal.

Over 8 million live outside of Isreal, the bulk of them, 6 million, live in the US. 

 

 

 

 

[CBH1926]

5 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here CBH...but I guess it's that the Americans should have continued the hold on those funds and that the attack would not have happened had they done so?

 

In any event, I wish this hadn't happened, but I'm not going to speculate on possible alternate scenarios. I'm sure plenty of others will be only too happy to do so.

 

All I will say is that tensions with Iran seem to have been getting worse ever since the Nuclear deal was scrapped.

My point was that many in the GOP are blaming Biden administration for releasing the funds to Iran which they claim was used to finance the Hamas attack. This is obviously false since this large type of attack has been in the works way way before this money handover exchange took place.

[RomanPer]

16 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I'm not going to debate your entire post, but the bolded line struck me....

 

I understand why the Jews would want to protect Israel, but don't you think the "wiped out from the earth" line is a tad melodramatic? AFAIK, there are lots of Jews in New York, Miami, Montreal, etc....

 

It would be major blow to lose their "holy land", but I think Judaism would survive....

 

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. Are you saying that it's ok to kill the 7 million that live in Israel because there are Jews in New York and Miami? Is that what you are calling "major blow"?

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I have a long term view on the Middle East. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Jewish parents. All of his friends and disciples were Jewish. 
 

The land that is currently called Israel was occupied by the Jews over 2000 years ago. It is the Holy Land. It is sacred. The Kingdom of Israel was around long before the state of Palestine. As we all know, wars happen and land gets taken and occupied. The land known as Israel has had many occupiers over the last two thousand years. 
 

At the end of the day, the Jewish people are surrounded by Arabs. It is their sole existence to keep their Holy Land. Without it the Jews would be wiped out from the earth. 
 

I understand what has happened since  WW2. The Palestinian people certainly need land of their own to call home. And so do the Jewish people. That’s why there needs to be a two state solution. 
 

This cannot happen however if one side wants to eliminate the other side from the earth. That is the problem with Hamas. 
 

As for the “freedom fighters” statement, I will agree with you 100% that brainwashing may not have been the appropriate term for me to use. I come from the western world so I do have preconceived ideas of what Hamas and Hezbollah and Al Qaeda are all about. And I can freely admit that our media have also brainwashed us to a certain degree. The US does not have clean hands either. They are the only country in history to actually use a nuclear weapon during war. They are as dirty as everyone else to be totally honest with you. 
 

I can understand why the Arab people stand with the terrorists. Like you said they run the countries and supply them with food, shelter and everything else. They are the government.  But at the end of the day they still have the mentality of terrorists. A normal government would not tell the other side that they want them eliminated from the earth. 
 

I still stand by my comment that you can’t negotiate with terrorists, or in this case a terrorist organization that wants to wipe the other side from the earth. 
 

This is why there is never peace in the Middle East. It goes back thousands of years and there has been too much bloodshed to have a peaceful resolution. 

 

See this is the problem right here.

BS sacred ground.

How many people have been killed over the centuries because they consider " the holy land " sacred ground "

 

Like I respect you Elias but this sort of BS is the root cause of human beings killing other human beings for stupid ###### reasons.

[RupertKBD]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. Are you saying that it's ok to kill the 7 million that live in Israel because there are Jews in New York and Miami? Is that what you are calling "major blow"?

 

Nope. Just saying the Judaism will survive this....

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Chicken. said:

I would wager he’s just in a very emotional state of mind and its being reflected in his posts. This would hit close to home having recent massacre in one’s own country. Dont blame him.

 

Thank you for understanding. Especially when someone is clearly goading you with sass about "where I learned the history" of my own people. Thank G-d for the Ignore option.

[RomanPer]

1 minute ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Nope. Just saying the Judaism will survive this....

 

Jews are a lot more than Judaism. There are more secular Jews in the world than religious ones.

[RupertKBD]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Jews are a lot more than Judaism. There are more secular Jews in the world than religious ones.

 

K. Then I'm saying "Jews" will survive....

Edited October 10, 2023 by RupertKBD

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Jews are a lot more than Judaism. There are more secular Jews in the world than religious ones.

 

Just out of interest, are you secular ?

If you don't mind me asking.

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Thank you for understanding. Especially when someone is clearly goading you with sass about "where I learned the history" of my own people. Thank G-d for the Ignore option.

 

I know I keep banging on about this and I will continue to.

We are all our people.

We are all human beings.

What's so special about being a Australian ?

What's so special about being a Jew/ Isreali ?

What's so special about being a Canadian ?

We all be traced back to the same place in Africa.

We all want the same things, food on the table, a safe environment for our loved ones.

 

Again F#ck Nationalism.

 

[Chicken.]

7 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Thank you for understanding. Especially when someone is clearly goading you with sass about "where I learned the history" of my own people. Thank G-d for the Ignore option.

I would be pissed off beyond belief as well, pal. I am not well versed on the whole situation here but painting both sides as at fault for what happened this week is ridiculous imo. Sure Israel has done some things that might cross the line but a lot of that was a long time ago and in a different era, from what I read and understand so far. In 2023 massacring/kidnapping/raping civilians is despicable and ISIS level. Its unfortunate Gaza residents elected these Hamas nuts and will be punished for a long time for it. Hopefully the moderate citizens are able to escape and find peace.

Take care.

[moosehead]

8 minutes ago, Chicken. said:

I would be pissed off beyond belief as well, pal. I am not well versed on the whole situation here but painting both sides as at fault for what happened this week is ridiculous imo. Sure Israel has done some things that might cross the line but a lot of that was a long time ago and in a different era, from what I read and understand so far. In 2023 massacring/kidnapping/raping civilians is despicable and ISIS level. Its unfortunate Gaza residents elected these Hamas nuts and will be punished for a long time for it. Hopefully the moderate citizens are able to escape and find peace.

Take care.

 

Is this post serious ?

 

Sure Israel has done some things that might cross the line but a lot of that was a long time ago and in a different era,

 

Really ??

 

 

Israel has launched four protracted military assaults on Gaza: in 2008, 2012, 2014 and 2021. Thousands of Palestinians have been killed, including many children, and tens of thousands of homes, schools and office buildings have been destroyed.

Edited October 10, 2023 by moosehead

[Blue]

1 hour ago, nuckin_futz said:

Getting the feeling Gaza City may resemble Mariupol when all is said and done.

Mariupol had almost no apartment structures completely flattened. There are already completely flattened apartments in Gaza. Even high rises