Hamas attacking Israel

[eeeeeeeeergh]

3 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

It was opened indefinitely for the 1st time in years in 2021. Until then it was on and off or letting in people at limited capacity. Egypt and Israel have a peace treaty and it isn't in Egypt's best interest to open the border to Gaza. Sinai is already the biggest hotbed of insurgency in Egypt and they want to try to keep them as separated from Hamas humanly possible. Both Israel and Egypt seem to be in agreement of that. Israel has an agreement with Egypt that all goods must go through their checkpoint first. 

 

 

This is broadly correct. It was possible for family to come and go through Rafah, and for Palestinians to enter Egypt using a Palestinian passport, but Israel requires all goods to enter through an Israeli checkpoint (for security reasons + Rafah is not equipped for commercial goods).

 

 

[BlockerHigh]

1 hour ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Normally I’d agree but what does Palestine have left to compromise with? Like what specifically do they have that they can give Israel in a compromise/negotiation? 
 

as far as I know it’s nothing. They have nothing Israel wants. Israel already got all the land it wanted, and freely takes more as desired (ongoing settlement building in the West Bank). 
 

 

How about not launching rockets 

 

you stop doing that you get more support globally right?

[Elias Pettersson]

9 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Sort of my point.  The Israelis can bomb Gaza into oblivion, and it won't end this.  Those bombs are just radicalizing the next generation.  History repeating.  And those bombs aren't just killing the guilty.  IT's also destroying infrastructure that the innocents somehow are going to have to replace.  NO one wins, and neither of the actual combatants are innocent.

 

War is war and hell is hell.  Of the 2, war is worse.  No innocent bystanders in hell. 

 

I don't believe that Israel will completely destroy Gaza.  I think they will be more strategic.  The world will not be on their side if they simply carpet bomb the entire 25 miles.  There will be too much propaganda against them.  With social media everything is instantaneous now.  It's not like the Gulf War where CNN and company could write their own scripts and make the US the good guy even after killing over 1 million people. 

 

That won't work anymore.  Nobody watches CNN anymore except Alf.  Same with all the other stations.  Most people get their news now from social media...

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Chicken. said:

I would be pissed off beyond belief as well, pal. I am not well versed on the whole situation here but painting both sides as at fault for what happened this week is ridiculous imo. Sure Israel has done some things that might cross the line but a lot of that was a long time ago and in a different era, from what I read and understand so far. In 2023 massacring/kidnapping/raping civilians is despicable and ISIS level. Its unfortunate Gaza residents elected these Hamas nuts and will be punished for a long time for it. Hopefully the moderate citizens are able to escape and find peace.

Take care.

 

You do realise that Isreal " helped " Hamas get elected by assassinating some it's leaders. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/guardianweekly/story/0,,1699719,00.html

 

And support for Hamas, among the Palestinian people was actually bolstered by their agreeing to a ceasefire. 

 

As for it's 2023, $hit shouldn't be happening now ?

What makes it worse than the $hit that happened 80 years ago ?

Even before that ?

This circle of hatred basically started with the Balfour declaration.

[Elias Pettersson]

Supernova festival: How massacre unfolded from verified video and social media - whichuniversitys.com

 

Supernova festival: How massacre unfolded from verified video and social media

 

By Sean Seddon, Joshua Cheetham & Benedict Garman

BBC News

Warning: This article contains details that some may find distressing

 

The last videos taken before the horror began, show it was a festival like any other – young people, dancing at dawn.

 

According to some accounts, there were up to 4,000 people in attendance. From the footage, they appear to be mostly under 30.

 

They had gathered in a remote area of southern Israel for the Supernova festival – an event that had promised dance, music, art and drinks at a secret location.

 

Ticket holders were told, nearer the time, to head to a site north of the Re’im kibbutz, about 6km (3.7 miles) east of Gaza. The party’s organisers promised a “journey of unity and love”.

 

And indeed, there are many happy faces to be seen in a video uploaded at 07:22 local time, showing festival-goers laughing and dancing in the weak morning light.

But above their heads, small black clouds of smoke signal the start of the terror that is approaching.

 

They appear to be the plumes left behind by the defensive missiles used by Israeli military to intercept rockets fired from Gaza.

 

In the hours that followed, Hamas would fire thousands of rockets into Israel.

 

BBC Verify has pieced together the events of the weekend’s festival bloodbath using video and social media posts that we have verified, and facial recognition technology.

 

Some of the festival-goers can be seen in the same footage looking up at the dark wisps above their heads. Others are oblivious and keep dancing.

 

In another video posted shortly afterwards, the music has stopped.

 

People are starting to evacuate the festival site – some look panicked, others duck for cover, and a few are nonchalantly heading for the exit.

 

A short drive away at the Gaza barrier, the next phase of the assault is under way.

 

‘They were everywhere’

 

It’s unclear how many minutes passed between the rockets starting and the gunmen arriving, but eyewitness accounts suggest it all happened very quickly.

 

“There were rockets, then they started firing. It was coming from different directions, and getting louder and louder,” Gilad Karplus, 31, and working as a massage therapist at the festival, told the BBC.

 

“I saw people going down. As we saw that, we just jumped into the jeep and drove into the fields.”

 

An Instagram story posted by one woman showed the rockets in the sky and people leaving the site.

 

“We went through a main road but after a minute someone started screaming that terrorists are shooting,” she wrote to her followers.

 

“But after two minutes, to the other direction [we] realised that there are more terrorists there as well.”

 

It’s impossible to know if the militants knew the festival was taking place at that location – but they would surely have heard the music reverberating across the quiet countryside.

 

We also know that, whether they found the site by accident or not, they came prepared to kill.

 

Gili Yoskovich told BBC News at the weekend how the militants “were everywhere with automatic weapons” and how she heard more weapons being unloaded from a van.

 

All the accounts suggest the camp was effectively surrounded and the roads in and out of the site were blocked.

 

Festival-goers were running in all directions, but some were still within range of the gunmen.

 

Gilad, who served in the Israeli army, said: “We pretty much knew they would probably block the road. I’m pretty sure a lot of people got killed on those roads.

 

“We drove into the field and tried to hide from them… afterwards we got a bit deeper into the fields and then they started firing sniper rifles on us from different places and also heavy artillery.”

 

As he made his way towards what he hoped was safety, Gilad says he saw an Israeli military vehicle.

 

“We drove very slowly and once we got to it we saw it had been hit by an anti-tank missile or something like that.”

 

There was no sign of the soldiers who had been in it.

 

Slaughter captured on camera

 

While some were fleeing into the fields and desert, the militants were methodically prowling through the festival killing on sight.

 

Dashcam footage time-stamped at 09:23, taken from a parked car, shows three of the gunmen who took part in the massacre.

 

In the opening frame of the footage a motionless body is seen lying curled up next to a car.

 

A militant armed with an automatic weapon is then seen ordering a bloodied man out of shot to get to the ground, before grabbing him by the back of his T-shirt and leading him away past the camera’s gaze. It’s unknown whether he survived.

 

And then the body by the car moves. The man, who appears to have been playing dead, stirs. He raises his head to see if the coast is clear.

 

It’s a fatal error.

 

Seconds later, another militant jogs into frame and shoots him in the head at point blank range and walks away.

 

In a later section from the same footage, a group of men appear. Only one is armed – they appear to be there to loot. They are seen rifling through the pockets of the dead man by the car, and going through a suitcase in another parked vehicle. But they find more than luggage. Two people, a man and a woman, who were hiding in a car are discovered and led away.

 

The woman who was taken suddenly reappears two minutes later. She jumps and waves her arms in the air. She must think help is at hand – by this time, the Israeli Defence Forces had began their efforts to repel the incursion. But seconds later she slumps to the floor as bullets bounce around her. We don’t know if she survived.

 

The BBC has analysed the footage and ran still images of the gunmen who were visible through a facial recognition tool.

 

It matched one of the faces with images of a man in police uniform which were available on the website of Gaza’s Nuseirat municipality.

 

We compared these through Amazon Rekognition software and got a similarity score of between 94-97% (some campaigners, however, have raised concerns that non-white faces can be falsely identified on facial recognition tools).

 

Counting the cost

 

Across the festival site, these savage scenes were being repeated over and over again.

 

More than 260 bodies have reportedly been recovered from the site, according to rescue agency Zaka.

 

Mobile and drone footage lays bare the scale of the Hamas assault, with the roads leading to the sites strewn with cars which had failed to make it through the frenzy of bullets.

 

The festival had become a warzone – and for some, the nightmare continues.

 

Hamas claim to have taken several hostages from the site, and the Israelis say about 100 people from across the country are being held inside Gaza.

 

One of the most harrowing videos to emerge from the festival is of a woman named on social media as Noa Argamani. In footage posted on social media by Hamas, she is seen being bundled on to the back of a motorcycle by militants crying and screaming, reaching out to a man who is being restrained. He watches on as she is driven away into the distance.

 

Footage purporting to show her alive in Gaza has circulated online but it’s unclear if it is genuine.

 

Her family, and the families of others abducted from the festival, await news of their loved ones – and it remains unclear how the Israeli government intends to get them back.

[Junkyard Dog]

12 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

How about not launching rockets 

 

you stop doing that you get more support globally right?

 

Hamas needs to be separated both in conversation and literally from Palestine/Gaza.

 

Hamas is not really supported globally that much. They're considered a terrorist organization from Canada, UK, USA, Australia, the EU, Japan, Paraguay(military-wing), Organization of American States and obviously Israel.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

19 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

How about not launching rockets 

 

you stop doing that you get more support globally right?

That has happened several times in the past 15 years. Contrary to what people seem to believe, the past 15 years has not seen daily rocket bombardment. 

 

The rockets stop, Israel is asked to stop annexing more land from Palestinian families, and this is the outcome every. single. time:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/27/403

 

“The one thing I do know: there will not be a freeze on construction and development in settlements, not even for one day,” 

[Ilunga]

26 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

This is broadly correct. It was possible for family to come and go through Rafah, and for Palestinians to enter Egypt using a Palestinian passport, but Israel requires all goods to enter through an Israeli checkpoint (for security reasons + Rafah is not equipped for commercial goods).

 

 

 

I am surprised you haven't brought up the Irgun, the Stern Gang.

To a lesser extent the Haganah.

What is considered by many to be the first modern act of terrorism, the bombing of the king David hotel.

 

 Freedom fighters/ terrorists, I guess it's which " side " you are on. 

 

I am reasonably certain the Palestinians used the template of these organisations after they lost their homes and were displaced.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am surprised you haven't brought up the Irgun, the Stern Gang.

To a lesser extent the Haganah.

What is considered by many to be the first modern act of terrorism, the bombing of the king David hotel.

 

 Freedom fighters/ terrorists, I guess it's which " side " you are on. 

 

I am reasonably certain the Palestinians used the template of these organisations after they lost their homes and were displaced.

Im happy to see that you know your history, youre absolutely right. 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

@Ilunga

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

 

TWO MAJOR UPDATES:

1. The Israeli Army announces: We are now launching a large-scale attack on the Gaza Strip

2. Also, "there are no longer any clashes with Palestinian militants inside Israel"

 

WHY THIS IS IMPORTANT: It shows the war is shifting in Israel's favor. Rockets from Hamas have dropped to a halt, incursions into Israel haven't occurred since yesterday, and there are no longer Hamas members in Israel. This all comes as Israel continues a massive aerial bombardment of Gaza that has not stopped since the conflict started, and continues to this hour. However, it is also very alarming, as we do not know the repercussions of Israel entering Gaza, and based on their statement, it's looking very possible it will happen today. How will Hezbollah and Iran respond once Israel enters Gaza? 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

@Ilunga

 

 

The more these idiots do stuff like this, the more comfortable I become with Israel carpet bombing Gaza.

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Im happy to see that you know your history, youre absolutely right. 

 

Yes the Irgun tried to pass the blame on to a very distant family relative, Sir John Shaw.

He sued the ass of a Jewish London newspaper who did not fight the case and gave a public apology.

 

A few months later he was appointed High Commissioner of Trinidad and Tobago.

The Irgun sent him a letterbomb however it was intercepted. 

 

My family has other ties to this conflict.

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

The more these idiots do stuff like this, the more comfortable I become with Israel carpet bombing Gaza.

 

Nice, so genocide 2 million people because theres some anti semites somewhere else in the world

[Tusk]

10 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

That has happened several times in the past 15 years. Contrary to what people seem to believe, the past 15 years has not seen daily rocket bombardment. 

 

The rockets stop, Israel is asked to stop annexing more land from Palestinian families, and this is the outcome every. single. time:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/27/403

 

“The one thing I do know: there will not be a freeze on construction and development in settlements, not even for one day,” 

Hey you all, you can all come to canada we got lotsa land for you to take.you dont have to shoot anyone, just take our jobs eventually.

[Junkyard Dog]

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

The more these idiots do stuff like this, the more comfortable I become with Israel carpet bombing Gaza.

 

A lot of innocents would die. 

 

We need to cut off the head off the snake and get rid of Hamas but the train they got rolling might already be too late to stop, especially after Israel unleashes wrath. 

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Nice, so genocide 2 million people because theres some anti semites somewhere else in the world

The simple solution is for Palestine to hand over the terrorists instead of electing them as their government.  My point is that, as someone who was previously neutral on the conflict, look at actions like these and the barbaric slaughter of civilians over the last couple of days and take that into account.

[BlockerHigh]

10 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Nice, so genocide 2 million people because theres some anti semites somewhere else in the world

This king Heffy dude is not someone to engage with on an intellectual and difficult discussion. 

[BlockerHigh]

26 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

That has happened several times in the past 15 years. Contrary to what people seem to believe, the past 15 years has not seen daily rocket bombardment. 

 

The rockets stop, Israel is asked to stop annexing more land from Palestinian families, and this is the outcome every. single. time:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/27/403

 

“The one thing I do know: there will not be a freeze on construction and development in settlements, not even for one day,” 

I’m aware 

 

but basically your suggestion just leads to the endless vicious circle of violence 

 

basically you’ve got terrorists on one side, innocent people caught in the middle 

 

then a regime on the other side that probably likes the terrorists because it help’s legitimize their behavior and further annexation 

 

this is my point, there’s no solution where Israel just gets up and out

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by BlockerHigh

[eeeeeeeeergh]

Just now, King Heffy said:

The simple solution is for Palestine to hand over the terrorists instead of electing them as their government.  My point is that, as someone who was previously neutral on the conflict, look at actions like these and the barbaric slaughter of civilians over the last couple of days and take that into account.

 

Heffy, I'll ask you for your assessment on the relative rightness/wrongness of these things:

 

1. Mass slaughter of Palestinians to drive them from their homes in order to make room for european/north american migrants 

2. Forcing the de-homed population into two tiny slivers of land, one of which you continually evict more of them from to make room for your own illegal (under international law) settlements, and push more of them into refugee camps

3. The use of drone strikes on entire apartment buildings to take out a single military target who "might" be home, that results in the death of thousands of civilians including women and children

 

My anger right now comes from the fact that people who just discovered this conflict yesterday have never once cared enough to be outraged for the evil done on Palestinian thats orders of magnitude larger, and consistnetly for the past 7 decades. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

2 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I’m aware 

 

but basically your suggestion just leads to the endless vicious circle of violence 

 

basically you’ve got terrorists on one side, innocent people caught in the middle 

 

then a regime on the other side that probably likes the terrorists because it help’s legitimize their behavior and further annexation 

 

this is my point, there’s no solution where Israel just gets up and out

 

 

And thats the thing - if theres no solution where Israel stops building west bank settlements and eases the conditions in Gaza, more people in Palestine will keep losing everything and turn to violence against Israel. So Hamas wont stop firing rockets- because doing so wont stop Israel from completing its ultimate objective of removing these people from their homeland. 

 

 

[King Heffy]

Just now, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Heffy, I'll ask you for your assessment on the relative rightness/wrongness of these things:

 

1. Mass slaughter of Palestinians to drive them from their homes in order to make room for european/north american migrants 

2. Forcing the de-homed population into two tiny slivers of land, one of which you continually evict more of them from to make room for your own illegal (under international law) settlements, and push more of them into refugee camps

3. The use of drone strikes on entire apartment buildings to take out a single military target who "might" be home, that results in the death of thousands of civilians including women and children

 

My anger right now comes from the fact that people who just discovered this conflict yesterday have never once cared enough to be outraged for the evil done on Palestinian thats orders of magnitude larger, and consistnetly for the past 7 decades. 

I don't think that these are right, hence my statement that I was previously neutral.  That still doesn't make this barbaric terrorist attack acceptable.  The bottom line is that the Hamas leadership needs to be completely eradicated from the planet as a consequence of their actions.  Sadly, I don't see another way to accomplish this necessity.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I don't think that these are right, hence my statement that I was previously neutral.  That still doesn't make this barbaric terrorist attack acceptable.  The bottom line is that the Hamas leadership needs to be completely eradicated from the planet as a consequence of their actions.  Sadly, I don't see another way to accomplish this necessity.

i agree with you - hamas leadership needs to be eradicated

 

do you also feel the same about the israeli leadership thats committed those atrocities on the palestinians? or do they get a pass?

[King Heffy]

12 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

i agree with you - hamas leadership needs to be eradicated

 

do you also feel the same about the israeli leadership thats committed those atrocities on the palestinians? or do they get a pass?

I would support them facing a war crimes tribunal.