Hamas attacking Israel

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

I would support them facing a war crimes tribunal.

 

well then we are in agreement. if you wanna run for PM and your two foreign policy points on israel/palestine are: wipe out Hamas, and send netanyahu to a war crimes tribunal, ill vote for you. 

[Ilunga]

48 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

@Ilunga

 

 

 

I shouldn't have to say it, it's bloody obvious, however I totally condemn that $hit.

That is effectively hate speech and we have laws against that as well as racial hatred /vilification. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Australia#:~:text=The Act makes it "unlawful,of the other person%2C or

 

 

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/racial-vilification-law-australia

 

Going back nearly 40 years ago when we would scrap with skinheads and the police themselves, they used to beat the $hit out of us, the first police to arrive had cameras.

You would be fighting and flashes would be going off.

Next day they had photographic evidence of the $hit that went down.

 

Why aren't they identifying the people who are breaking the law with today's technology, then tomorrow go to their homes and arrest them ?

 

 

 

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

well then we are in agreement. if you wanna run for PM and your two foreign policy points on israel/palestine are: wipe out Hamas, and send netanyahu to a war crimes tribunal, ill vote for you. 

I don't want to live in a country that will have me as a leader.

[Ghostsof1915]

[RomanPer]

59 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

@Ilunga

 

 

 

No, no, we should negotiate with them. Because western-raised people think so…

[RomanPer]

4 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I don't want to live in a country that will have me as a leader.

 

I wouldn’t mind living in that country as long as i am your most trusted advisor lol

[Ilunga]

45 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

The simple solution is for Palestine to hand over the terrorists instead of electing them as their government.  My point is that, as someone who was previously neutral on the conflict, look at actions like these and the barbaric slaughter of civilians over the last couple of days and take that into account.

 

Guess what, Isreal elected an ex terrorist, leader of Lehi as their 7th prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir.

Another ex terrorist, Menachem Begin, leader of the Irgun, was the 6th prime minister of Isreal.

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

Oh, for all those who think that I am all Palestinians-hating asshole - one of my best friends is Palestinian guy from Edmonton and I used to date a Palestinian girl (who knew that I was Jewish Israeli).

[RomanPer]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Guess what, Isreal elected an ex terrorist, leader of Lehi as their 7th prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir.

Another ex terrorist, Menachem Begin, leader of the Irgun, was the 6th prime minister of Isreal.

 

 

 

 

Well, Menahem Begin was also the first Israeli leader to sign peace agreement with an Arab country…

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Guess what, Isreal elected an ex terrorist, leader of Lehi as their 7th prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir.

Another ex terrorist, Menachem Begin, leader of the Irgun, was the 6th prime minister of Isreal.

 

 

 

And I'd ideally have liked them to answer before The Hague, along with Bush Jr.  Focusing on history for this conflict just tends to amp up animosity on both sides though.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Oh, for all those who think that I am all Palestinians-hating asshole - one of my best friends is Palestinian guy from Edmonton and I used to date a Palestinian girl (who knew that I was Jewish Israeli).

 

All my friends are human beings.

I don't ask them their ethnicity.

I couldn't care less.

 

To paraphrase MLK 

Judge a person by the content of their character not the colour of their skin.

 

 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

20 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

i agree with you - hamas leadership needs to be eradicated

 

do you also feel the same about the israeli leadership thats committed those atrocities on the palestinians? or do they get a pass?

 

IMO Hamas is the key factor. After they are dealt with we can go from there. Whether that be holding Israel officials in account for their actions or helping out Palestinians/Israeli's find peaceful resolutions. 

 

For almost 30 years a part of the Hamas charter called for the death of Jews and eradication of Israel. It also rejected any sort of peace.

 

They stayed true to their original charter last weekend. 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Well, Menahem Begin was also the first Israeli leader to sign peace agreement with an Arab country…

 

I was waiting for you to bring that up.

It's BS that terrorists like Begin and Arafat and Rabin as well as a mass murderer like Kissenger were awarded the Nobel peace prize.

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

IMO Hamas is the key factor. After they are dealt with we can go from there. Whether that be holding Israel officials in account for their actions or helping out Palestinians/Israeli's find peaceful resolutions. 

 

For almost 30 years a part of the Hamas charter called for the death of Jews and eradication of Israel. It also rejected any sort of peace.

 

They stayed true to their original charter last weekend. 

 

This article deals with these questions.

 

 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/israel-may-decimate-hamas-but-can-it-win-this-war

 

As it states in the article, cut the head of the snake, something worse may replace it.

 

The example they give regarding al Qaeda that morphed into ISIS.

[Rubik]

7 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

Not sure this is something to laugh about....

 

no, ofc not, I didn't mean it that way. This - or for that matter any war - is awful.

[Ilunga]

13 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

And I'd ideally have liked them to answer before The Hague, along with Bush Jr.  Focusing on history for this conflict just tends to amp up animosity on both sides though.

 

The history of this conflict is what is on people's minds on both sides of this conflict.

Someone's parent, child, other close relative was killed the better part of 100 years ago and the circle of hatred has continued since.

 

It's the Hatfields and the McCoys on a national scale.

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

You used the word solution in regards to a group of people, all I stated is that it always reminds me of the final solution.

Which it did.

 

No, I used the term solution as its intended use; find a solution to a problem. Nothing prejudicial 'about a group of people' inferred. Even though that is how you read it? A solution 'for a group of people' was stated. Context matters. 

 

So I qualified it. I will again. At some point Palestinians need their own state! Its not likely? Not right now anyway, because of the path Hamas leaders have chosen?  

 

Hopefully one day they will have peace.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

3 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

IMO Hamas is the key factor. After they are dealt with we can go from there. Whether that be holding Israel officials in account for their actions or helping out Palestinians/Israeli's find peaceful resolutions. 

 

For almost 30 years a part of the Hamas charter called for the death of Jews and eradication of Israel. It also rejected any sort of peace.

 

They stayed true to their original charter last weekend. 

 

Respectfully - do you understand the context of the creation of Israel?

 

Do you know that the 2 million Palestinians who are without a country used to live in that land, and were "depopulated" to make way for the birthright of European and North Americans to take over their homes?

 

Like - can you see how that, combined with 4 decades of air strikes on houses, and tens of thousands of palestinian civilian deaths, MIGHT make them want their land back?

 

Hamas did not exist until 2006.

 

The Palestinians forced their previous freedom fighters (the PLO) to renounce violence and enter peace talks with Israel. The bombings on their homes continued, as did the apartheid conditions in the West Bank (it is literal apartheid - im talking separate roads for palestinians and israeli settlers). Then Hamas comes along and promises to continue the fight. Violence is wrong - but can you understand that MAYBE the reason the violence keeps coming back is the Palestinians are a subjugated population thats been beaten, murdered, beaten, murdered, again and again without pause? And maybe they're tired of it?

 

So where this needs to start is: Israel needs to stop subjugating Palestinians. End apartheid conditions, let enough food and medical supplies into Gaza, stop bombing peoples homes, and stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank.

 

If Israel stops doing that, the Palestinians have no reason to support Hamas anymore. Just like they forced the PLO to renounce violence.

 

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

No, I used the term solution as its intended use; find a solution to a problem. Nothing prejudicial 'about a group of people' inferred. Even though that is how you read it? A solution 'for a group of people' was stated. Context matters. 

 

So I qualified it. I will again. At some point Palestinians need their own state! Its not likely? Not right now anyway, because of the path Hamas leaders have chosen?  

 

Hopefully one day they will have peace.

 

Brother I think you have taken this too seriously.

As I stated about the " pacific solution " 

When I hear the word solution associated with people I kinda freak out.

That's on me, not you.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

Genuinely think that most peoples confusion here stems from the fact that they cant possibly believe that a "Western democracy" is in fact an apartheid state.

 

“We established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories” - op-ed for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in 2002 from former Israeli Attorney General Michael Ben-Yair.

 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Respectfully - do you understand the context of the creation of Israel?

 

Do you know that the 2 million Palestinians who are without a country used to live in that land, and were "depopulated" to make way for the birthright of European and North Americans to take over their homes?

 

Like - can you see how that, combined with 4 decades of air strikes on houses, and tens of thousands of palestinian civilian deaths, MIGHT make them want their land back?

 

Hamas did not exist until 2006.

 

The Palestinians forced their previous freedom fighters (the PLO) to renounce violence and enter peace talks with Israel. The bombings on their homes continued, as did the apartheid conditions in the West Bank (it is literal apartheid - im talking separate roads for palestinians and israeli settlers). Then Hamas comes along and promises to continue the fight. Violence is wrong - but can you understand that MAYBE the reason the violence keeps coming back is the Palestinians are a subjugated population thats been beaten, murdered, beaten, murdered, again and again without pause? And maybe they're tired of it?

 

So where this needs to start is: Israel needs to stop subjugating Palestinians. End apartheid conditions, let enough food and medical supplies into Gaza, stop bombing peoples homes, and stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank.

 

If Israel stops doing that, the Palestinians have no reason to support Hamas anymore. Just like they forced the PLO to renounce violence.

 

 

Respectfully and I agree with much of what you state, it's not as simple as that.

I posted the comments of Ex Isreali PM's, ex head of Mossad, Isreali human rights organisation B'tselem amongst other prominent Isrealis that all state Isreal is practicing arpartheid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

This is ignoring the UN and amnesty international amongst others stating the same thing.

 

The state of Israel has a right to exist. 

I am fully aware of the history of this conflict from the moment of the Balfour declaration to the current day.

There are extremists on both sides that are exacerbating this conflict.

There is no way anyone can condone what has happened in the last couple of days.

Hopefully we won't have to say this in a few days time when the Isrealis fully retaliate however I fear for the worst. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Respectfully and I agree with much of what you state, it's not as simple as that.

I posted the comments of Ex Isreali PM's, ex head of Mossad, Isreali human rights organisation B'tselem amongst other prominent Isrealis that all state Isreal is practicing arpartheid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

This is ignoring the UN and amnesty international amongst others stating the same thing.

 

The state of Israel has a right to exist. 

I am fully aware of the history of this conflict from the moment of the Balfour declaration to the current day.

There are extremists on both sides that are exacerbating this conflict.

There is no way anyone can condone what has happened in the last couple of days.

Hopefully we won't have to say this in a few days time when the Isrealis fully retaliate however I fear for the worst. 

 

I agree that the state of Israel has a right to exist, I don't dispute that.

 

I don't condone the massacre of civilians, no matter the context, ever. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that most people woke up a few days ago, bewildered, never having had any reason or desire to follow the conflict. As a result, they have no clue why the Palestinian people are so angry. They've been sold the notion that this terrorist attack was a random outburst of violence.

 

I've seen tons of comments like Heffys all over social media (carpet bombing all of Gaza and killing as many civilians as necessary to eradicate Hamas), so I'm trying to show them just how deep and violent the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people have been. My hope is that people will research this and realize that the root cause of this terrorism, as usually is the case of ALL terrorism (see the IRA, Al Shabab, Al Qaeda, etc.) is massive state violence either against its own population or another population. So hopefully they stand up and call for the end of those atrocities, and the resolution of the Palestinians grievances.

 

 

[MatchesMalone]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Respectfully and I agree with much of what you state, it's not as simple as that.

I posted the comments of Ex Isreali PM's, ex head of Mossad, Isreali human rights organisation B'tselem amongst other prominent Isrealis that all state Isreal is practicing arpartheid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

This is ignoring the UN and amnesty international amongst others stating the same thing.

 

The state of Israel has a right to exist. 

I am fully aware of the history of this conflict from the moment of the Balfour declaration to the current day.

There are extremists on both sides that are exacerbating this conflict.

There is no way anyone can condone what has happened in the last couple of days.

Hopefully we won't have to say this in a few days time when the Isrealis fully retaliate however I fear for the worst. 

 

Hey man, I've always been curious about this conflict and read things here and there but mostly I'm pretty ignorant.  Right now I'm curious about one particular point but have been reading up and can't seem to find a good answer - what do you think is Hamas' end game with this particular offensive? They had to know reprisal would be furious. Also, do you know of any good sources that track and/or speculate on Hamas' funding? Who's backing them financially would help give an idea of what their end goals are (I read somewhere that Iran has the most to gain from this situation).

[King Heffy]

48 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

The history of this conflict is what is on people's minds on both sides of this conflict.

Someone's parent, child, other close relative was killed the better part of 100 years ago and the circle of hatred has continued since.

 

It's the Hatfields and the McCoys on a national scale.

I agree.  I truly don't think it will be solved without a third party getting in between.  I think of the scene in Lawrence of Arabia where he executes the man to end a blood feud.  UN peacekeepers in between are the only viable solution I can think of.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, MatchesMalone said:

 

Hey man, I've always been curious about this conflict and read things here and there but mostly I'm pretty ignorant.  Right now I'm curious about one particular point but have been reading up and can't seem to find a good answer - what do you think is Hamas' end game with this particular offensive? They had to know reprisal would be furious. Also, do you know of any good sources that track and/or speculate on Hamas' funding? Who's backing them financially would help give an idea of what their end goals are (I read somewhere that Iran has the most to gain from this situation).

 

Iran is a major backer of Hamas.

Isreal claims Iran funds them, giving them a $100 million year, not sure if that includes military equipment, they do train Hamas fighters.

Gulf countries, Palestinians in other countries.

This article gives you a head start.

 

https://coopwb.in/info/how-is-hamas-financed/

 

I don't know about Iran having the most to gain, they simply hate the Isrealis the most. 

I believe, as others do, that this was timed to disrupt the upcoming agreement between Isreal and the Saudis.