Hamas attacking Israel

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

It’s been confirmed by people on the ground. Hamas will not survive this. They will be completely destroyed…

 

 

Yep, this is the conclusion I come to last night as well. Palestine will be absolutely liberated from Hamas. What that leads to in the future I don't know, but I think this will drag on for some time.

[The Arrogant Worms]

Not my words but interesting.....

 

UN proposed Jewish state with 25% land going to Israel, 75% going to Palestine. Jews accepted, Arabs rejected.

When Israel was created, Palestine opposed and declared war on Israel (along with other Arab nations) and lost the war.

Palestine again lost the war in 1967 and Israel offered land for peace deal. You don't like the deal?

So what, no other country has won a war and conceded land back to its enemies that are surrounding them. Canada did not do that. What makes you feel that Israel has to play by different rules than any other nation on earth?

Since the beginning Palestine and Hamas have refused to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist and their own charter calls for the death of all Jews

 

. Listen, it's fine to say that Palestine has the right to oppose the existence of Israel but they lost the war and that's that. Every other country in the world drew border lines around outcomes of war.

 

Why on earth is it not ok for Israel to do the same? Why are you ok with the border lines of Canada then and having natives live in crappy reservations?

[Elias Pettersson]

Wow, no words...

 

 

[Mike Vanderhoek]

5 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

Not my words but interesting.....

 

UN proposed Jewish state with 25% land going to Israel, 75% going to Palestine. Jews accepted, Arabs rejected.

When Israel was created, Palestine opposed and declared war on Israel (along with other Arab nations) and lost the war.

Palestine again lost the war in 1967 and Israel offered land for peace deal. You don't like the deal?

So what, no other country has won a war and conceded land back to its enemies that are surrounding them. Canada did not do that. What makes you feel that Israel has to play by different rules than any other nation on earth?

Since the beginning Palestine and Hamas have refused to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist and their own charter calls for the death of all Jews

 

. Listen, it's fine to say that Palestine has the right to oppose the existence of Israel but they lost the war and that's that. Every other country in the world drew border lines around outcomes of war.

 

Why on earth is it not ok for Israel to do the same? Why are you ok with the border lines of Canada then and having natives live in crappy reservations?

Palestinians have been getting squeezed and squeezed the moment Israel was created, no its not right and yes the global community has done nothing but for the most part support Israel while the UN would do nothing as they expanded their territories. So to answer your question it was never ok for Israel to keep expanding disregarding international rules but nobody has done a damn thing about it.

 

You wonder why terror breeds in situations like this. It is not the Palestinian people as a whole but their situation allows for ease of manipulation and false purpose or hope to an otherwise hopeless existence.  

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

Not my words but interesting.....

 

UN proposed Jewish state with 25% land going to Israel, 75% going to Palestine. Jews accepted, Arabs rejected.

When Israel was created, Palestine opposed and declared war on Israel (along with other Arab nations) and lost the war.

Palestine again lost the war in 1967 and Israel offered land for peace deal. You don't like the deal?

So what, no other country has won a war and conceded land back to its enemies that are surrounding them. Canada did not do that. What makes you feel that Israel has to play by different rules than any other nation on earth?

Since the beginning Palestine and Hamas have refused to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist and their own charter calls for the death of all Jews

 

. Listen, it's fine to say that Palestine has the right to oppose the existence of Israel but they lost the war and that's that. Every other country in the world drew border lines around outcomes of war.

 

Why on earth is it not ok for Israel to do the same? Why are you ok with the border lines of Canada then and having natives live in crappy reservations?

 

This is true.  The land they call Israel was owned by the British up until 1948.  The Brits sent holocost survivors among others to go live in that land.  Some are saying it was all those rich Zionists from Europe but that's not true.  The Zionists were helping the British during WW2.

 

In 1948 Britian made an offer to both the Palestinians and the Israelis.  The Israelis accepted but the Palestinians did not.  So, Britain took the deal off the table.  After that, that is when Israel went to war to claim the land.  The land they have is the land they won from the wars.  Just like Britain before them who conquered that land and every other country before them who went to war.  Israel took more and more land as they went along.  That's how war works.

 

Comparing Palestinians to the Indigenous people in North America is false and not accurate.  The Indigenous people were the first to arrive here and lost their land to the settlers.  The Palestinians were not the first to arrive in Israel.  The Jews were there since 3000 years ago.

 

At the end of the day, the Palestinians had the chance to make their deal with the British in 1948 and refused...

[RomanPer]

8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

This is true.  The land they call Israel was owned by the British up until 1948.  The Brits sent holocost survivors among others to go live in that land.  Some are saying it was all those rich Zionists from Europe but that's not true.  The Zionists were helping the British during WW2.

 

In 1948 Britian made an offer to both the Palestinians and the Israelis.  The Israelis accepted but the Palestinians did not.  So, Britain took the deal off the table.  After that, that is when Israel went to war to claim the land.  The land they have is the land they won from the wars.  Just like Britain before them who conquered that land and every other country before them who went to war.  Israel took more and more land as they went along.  That's how war works.

 

Comparing Palestinians to the Indigenous people in North America is false and not accurate.  The Indigenous people were the first to arrive here and lost their land to the settlers.  The Palestinians were not the first to arrive in Israel.  The Jews were there since 3000 years ago.

 

At the end of the day, the Palestinians had the chance to make their deal with the British in 1948 and refused...

 

Just one small correction - Israel didn't go to war in 1948. Arab countries attacked and Israel defended itself.

[Junkyard Dog]

37 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Yep, this is the conclusion I come to last night as well. Palestine will be absolutely liberated from Hamas. What that leads to in the future I don't know, but I think this will drag on for some time.

Unfortunately many innocent Palestinians will die in the process. Many already have. 
 

Palestinians will remember Israel’s retribution and may want some themselves and the cycle continues. 
 

Israel isn’t gonna show mercy and given the history it will help solidify bad tension with Palestinians. 

 

It may push more to extremism even if Hamas is eradicated and another group may form. 
 

Not to mention the other Arab countries that are against Israel and don’t want peace with them. 
 

What a shitty situation. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Junkyard Dog

[Ryan Strome]

4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Unfortunately many innocent Palestinians will die in the process.
 

Palestinians will remember Israel’s retribution and may want some themselves and the cycle continues. 
 

Israel isn’t gonna show mercy and given the history it will help solidify bad tension with Palestinians. 

 

It may push more to extremism even if Hamas is eradicated and another group may form. 
 

Not to mention the other Arab countries that are against Israel and don’t want peace with them. 
 

What a shitty situation. 

The potential involvement of other Arab countries could make things very bad as well.

 

You're right. It is a very shitty situation

[24K]

 

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

This is true.  The land they call Israel was owned by the British up until 1948.  The Brits sent holocost survivors among others to go live in that land.  Some are saying it was all those rich Zionists from Europe but that's not true.  The Zionists were helping the British during WW2.

 

In 1948 Britian made an offer to both the Palestinians and the Israelis.  The Israelis accepted but the Palestinians did not.  So, Britain took the deal off the table.  After that, that is when Israel went to war to claim the land.  The land they have is the land they won from the wars.  Just like Britain before them who conquered that land and every other country before them who went to war.  Israel took more and more land as they went along.  That's how war works.

 

Comparing Palestinians to the Indigenous people in North America is false and not accurate.  The Indigenous people were the first to arrive here and lost their land to the settlers.  The Palestinians were not the first to arrive in Israel.  The Jews were there since 3000 years ago.

 

At the end of the day, the Palestinians had the chance to make their deal with the British in 1948 and refused...

True except the original deal was more like 62% Israel than 25% as claimed. From look of the map presented it was like 50/50 at least. Plan defined by the UN that is. 

 

Understandable why Arabs are enraged as that distribution did not match the population distribution at that time though that was obviously not the main reason.  

[24K]

6 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Unfortunately many innocent Palestinians will die in the process.
 

Palestinians will remember Israel’s retribution and may want some themselves and the cycle continues. 
 

Israel isn’t gonna show mercy and given the history it will help solidify bad tension with Palestinians. 

 

It may push more to extremism even if Hamas is eradicated and another group may form. 
 

Not to mention the other Arab countries that are against Israel and don’t want peace with them. 
 

What a shitty situation. 

Not surprised as people have been fighting over that land not even for centuries but millenias. 

 

It ain't getting fixed until both side makes peace that they are stuck with one another and work on either figuring this two state solution out or come to an equitable power sharing agreement as one state. 

[nuckin_futz]

Now that details are emerging it's simply disgusting the barbarism of Hamas. Dead Israeli soldeirs beheaded, women raped. Sounds a lot like the reports out of Bucha and Irpin outside Kyiv when Russia/Wagner attacked.

 

Initially it was assumed Hamas was in and out in 30-45 minutes. That is incorrect they were on the ground wreaking havoc for 4.5 hours according to reports. Those concert attendees were literally hunted for hours hence the number of casualties. Where was the IDF?

Edited October 10, 2023 by nuckin_futz

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, 24K said:

 

True except the original deal was more like 62% Israel than 25% as claimed. From look of the map presented it was like 50/50 at least. Plan defined by the UN that is. 

 

Understandable why Arabs are enraged as that distribution did not match the population distribution at that time though that was obviously not the main reason.  

 

If someone offers you 38% of land that you do not own and you refuse the deal, then that is your problem.  38% of the land is ALOT more than what they have right now.  Sometimes you just need to take the best deal that is on the table and walk away.  That's how negotiations work...

 

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

If someone offers you 38% of land that you do not own and you refuse the deal, then that is your problem.  38% of the land is ALOT more than what they have right now.  Sometimes you just need to take the best deal that is on the table and walk away.  That's how negotiations work...

 

To be fair though my man, if we went into the Russia, Ukraine thread, I don't think people would be encouraged by this comment.

[24K]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

If someone offers you 38% of land that you do not own and you refuse the deal, then that is your problem.  38% of the land is ALOT more than what they have right now.  Sometimes you just need to take the best deal that is on the table and walk away.  That's how negotiations work...

 

Well technically the Arabs were the last people in power over that land for centuries via the Ottoman Empire before occupation by the British post ww1 so it is not really not their land either. 

[UnkNuk]

42 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The Palestinians were not the first to arrive in Israel.  The Jews were there since 3000 years ago.

 

The problem I have with this historical argument is:  according to the Bible, the Israelites invaded the land we call Israel and drove out the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Girgashites, the Hittites, the Hivites, the Jebusites and the Perizzites.

 

If this historical argument is to be made, maybe the land should be given back to the descendants of the Canaanites, Amorites etc.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Nations_(Bible)#:~:text=God instructed the Israelites to,was discussed in later commentary.

[nuckin_futz]

11 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

If someone offers you 38% of land that you do not own and you refuse the deal, then that is your problem.  38% of the land is ALOT more than what they have right now.  Sometimes you just need to take the best deal that is on the table and walk away.  That's how negotiations work...

 

 

That's how appeasement works and appeasement never works.

Edited October 10, 2023 by nuckin_futz

[Elias Pettersson]

19 minutes ago, 24K said:

Well technically the Arabs were the last people in power over that land for centuries via the Ottoman Empire before occupation by the British post ww1 so it is not really not their land either. 

 

And the Romans owned the land before that.  The land was conquered many times over over the last several thousand years.

 

At the end of the day, in 1948 neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis owned the land.  The "Landlord" at the time, the British, made them a deal.  The Israelis accepted the deal and the Palestinians did not.  So that is their problem.  They then turned around and "fought" for more of the land and lost.  So again, that is their problem.  Countries conquer land through war, that's how it works.  If the UN was in charge of distributing the land in the world based on population, then Canada would probably lose 70% of its land base and would need to give it to the European and Asian countries.  

[Elias Pettersson]

20 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

The problem I have with this historical argument is:  according to the Bible, the Israelites invaded the land we call Israel and drove out the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Girgashites, the Hittites, the Hivites, the Jebusites and the Perizzites.

 

If this historical argument is to be made, maybe the land should be given back to the descendants of the Canaanites, Amorites etc.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Nations_(Bible)#:~:text=God instructed the Israelites to,was discussed in later commentary.

 

No, when you invade a territory and you win the war then it's your land.  That's how it works.  Didn't the British conquer the land from the Ottoman Empire?  The Romans from Alexander the Great?  Is there even a country in the world that was given land for free without fighting for it?

[Elias Pettersson]

23 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said:

 

That's how appeasement works and appeasement never works.

 

The British owned the land.  They were the Landlord at the time.  They had the choice to do whatever they wanted with their land including keeping it.  They offered the Palestinians 38% of the land and they refused.  Now they almost have nothing and will probably end up with less than nothing when this is all over.  So it was a bad business deal on their part.  They "chose" to fight for more than the 38% and they lost...

[Satchmo]

We can all study the Bible.   We can examine the Balfour agreement.   We can look through textbooks for archaeological evidence, go dig up bones ourselves.

 

I'm not sure it will help us with the mess we are in here and now.

 

The solution won't be found in the past.

[24K]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

No, when you invade a territory and you win the war then it's your land.  That's how it works.  Didn't the British conquer the land from the Ottoman Empire?  The Romans from Alexander the Great?  Is there even a country in the world that was given land for free without fighting for it?

Israel.

[Darius]

24 minutes ago, 24K said:

Well technically the Arabs were the last people in power over that land for centuries via the Ottoman Empire before occupation by the British post ww1 so it is not really not their land either. 

If we are going to go back to the Ottoman empire should we examine pre world war Jewish populations across the Arab world that were basically forcibly expelled?  Places like Baghdad where Jews lived for centuries and were estimated to be approx 40 percent of the population?  Large populations forced out(from everywhere from north African Countries all the way to Baghdad), many of which fled to Israel - some estimates state that 50% of the Jewish population of Israel descends from populations that were forced out of Arab lands.   So who rightfully owns what?  

 

https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1881&context=ilj

 

Rather than getting mired in who owned what during the past 2 thousand years I think the important  to examine who funds the terrorist group Hamas. Lets follow the money from places like Turkey and Iran to see who is profiting and who is pulling the strings.   Dont get me wrong, Israel has had a large hand in creating this mess but having  ISIS equivalent leadership - manipulated by other state sponsors-  who use civilians as pawns in larger geopolitical games is a major issue in this conflict.  The outside influences are strong and it is not in their interest to have peace in the region so they keep the population poor, siphon the money, and will poke the bear (Israel)  to perpetuate the hate and to keep the region destabilized.   In the end its the civilians that suffer and will continue to suffer.

 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, Darius said:

If we are going to go back to the Ottoman empire should we examine pre world war Jewish populations across the Arab world that were basically forcibly expelled?  Places like Baghdad where Jews lived for centuries and were estimated to be approx 40 percent of the population?  Large populations forced out(from everywhere from north African Countries all the way to Baghdad), many of which fled to Israel - some estimates state that 50% of the Jewish population of Israel descends from populations that were forced out of Arab lands.   So who rightfully owns what?  

 

https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1881&context=ilj

 

Rather than getting mired in who owned what during the past 2 thousand years I think the important  to examine who funds the terrorist group Hamas. Lets follow the money from places like Turkey and Iran to see who is profiting and who is pulling the strings.   Dont get me wrong, Israel has had a large hand in creating this mess but having  ISIS equivalent leadership - manipulated by other state sponsors-  who use civilians as pawns in larger geopolitical games is a major issue in this conflict.  The outside influences are strong and it is not in their interest to have peace in the region so they keep the population poor, siphon the money, and will poke the bear (Israel)  to perpetuate the hate and to keep the region destabilized.   In the end its the civilians that suffer and will continue to suffer.

 

 

Excellent points.  The main point that some people are not understanding is that Hamas does not want peace.  They want the destruction of the state of Israel and to set up a world caliphate over the rule of all other civilizations.  This was confirmed by the sone of one of the founders of Hamas.  How do you negotiate with someone like that?  The answer is you don't.  Hamas must be destroyed before we can even entertain any negotiations. 

 

I know some feel that the Palestinians consider Hamas their freedom fighters, but honestly if the Palestinians are okay with the beheading of babies all for their Jihad then they deserve whatever is coming to them...

[24K]

4 minutes ago, Darius said:

If we are going to go back to the Ottoman empire should we examine pre world war Jewish populations across the Arab world that were basically forcibly expelled?  Places like Baghdad where Jews lived for centuries and were estimated to be approx 40 percent of the population?  Large populations forced out(from everywhere from north African Countries all the way to Baghdad), many of which fled to Israel - some estimates state that 50% of the Jewish population of Israel descends from populations that were forced out of Arab lands.   So who rightfully owns what?  

 

https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1881&context=ilj

 

Rather than getting mired in who owned what during the past 2 thousand years I think the important  to examine who funds the terrorist group Hamas. Lets follow the money from places like Turkey and Iran to see who is profiting and who is pulling the strings.   Dont get me wrong, Israel has had a large hand in creating this mess but having  ISIS equivalent leadership - manipulated by other state sponsors-  who use civilians as pawns in larger geopolitical games is a major issue in this conflict.  The outside influences are strong and it is not in their interest to have peace in the region so they keep the population poor, siphon the money, and will poke the bear (Israel)  to perpetuate the hate and to keep the region destabilized.   In the end its the civilians that suffer and will continue to suffer.

 

Arguments was over why Palestine didn't just take the original deal. My argument was that that land was lived by Arabs for centuries leading up to the deal thus why they won't just roll over and hand over more than half of it to foreign settlers in their eyes. 

 

Also the British kind of renaged on their initial deal to the Arabs there of granting them full autonomy and independence if they rebelled against the Ottomans. There is a sense of betrayl there as well.

 

But to the present, yes follow the money. There is vested interest to keep this going as it is a major cash cow to the military hardware industry and geopolitical ambitions. 

 

Though this attack feels like an unilateral last gasp by Hamas before funding and relevance goes out as the global economy slows and neighboring countries starting to seek peace and cooperation with Isreal.  

[Darius]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Excellent points.  The main point that some people are not understanding is that Hamas does not want peace.  They want the destruction of the state of Israel and to set up a world caliphate over the rule of all other civilizations.  This was confirmed by the sone of one of the founders of Hamas.  How do you negotiate with someone like that?  The answer is you don't.  Hamas must be destroyed before we can even entertain any negotiations. 

 

I know some feel that the Palestinians consider Hamas their freedom fighters, but honestly if the Palestinians are okay with the beheading of babies all for their Jihad then they deserve whatever is coming to them...

 

Yes, its basically in their "constitution"

 

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

 

 

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

 

How do you negotiate with this type of entity?