Hamas attacking Israel

[eeeeeeeeergh]

34 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Because some people have been saying that the Jews never owned the land and the Palestinians did.  The Jews were around long before the Palestinians.  In any event, the Landlord of the property was changed over many times and in 1948 the new Landlord offered the Palestinians a deal and they refused.  They fought to get more land and lost.  Case closed...

 

The big hole in this argument? The settlers/colonialists who cleansed the land of the now palestinian refugees to make way for the state of Israel are Europeans and North Americans. Sharing religious identity with a completely different group of people who lived in the land 2000 years ago does NOT make it okay to kick people out of their homes and steal their land.

 

If you accept the logic behind the argument - I, as a Muslim, am entitled to live in Saudi arabia because we share the same religion, even though I nor my parents or grandparents ever lived there. 

 

 

[the destroyer of worlds]

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-airlift-canadians-israel-1.6991211

Ottawa to begin airlifting Canadians out of Israel in 'coming days,' minister says

 

PM Trudeau and other politicians condemn expressions of support for Hamas

[Coconuts]

Even if Hamas is rooted out, and there's a good chance it happens, will that really put an end to things? What comes next?

 

Israel can shut off the power, shut off the water, control who comes and goes, they can do any of this at any time for any reason. Palestinians are landlocked and blockaded, noncombative Palestinian men, women, and children have all been killed this year by Israeli forces. Land and homes continue to be seized. Tensions aren't just going to dissipate. The attacks on Israeli citizens by Hamas are awful, certainly, but are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives? It's not as if Hamas represents over a million Palestinians. 

 

Israel continues to encroach and colonize, I have a hard time seeing what are already miserable conditions for Palestinians improving any time soon. My speaking to this is not antisemitism, I simply have doubts regarding Israel's interest in the human rights of those who are about to be caught in the crossfire. 

[Sharpshooter]

50 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Land lost through war isn't seized, it is conquered...

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-02-07/ty-article/explained-israels-new-palestinian-land-grab-law-and-why-it-matters/0000017f-e297-d7b2-a77f-e3978a460000

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

The big hole in this argument? The settlers/colonialists who cleansed the land of the now palestinian refugees to make way for the state of Israel are Europeans and North Americans. Sharing religious identity with a completely different group of people who lived in the land 2000 years ago does NOT make it okay to kick people out of their homes and steal their land.

 

If you accept the logic behind the argument - I, as a Muslim, am entitled to live in Saudi arabia because we share the same religion, even though I nor my parents or grandparents ever lived there. 

 

 

 

Not sure "cleaning" is the right word there.  If you take land based on winning a war it's not really ethnic cleaning.  I mean did the Europeans "cleanse" North America?  

 

If anything, it is the Muslims who wanted to "cleanse" the Jews from the Middle East considering the only place the Jews have in the entire Middle East is a tiny spot by the sea.  The Jews are surrounded by Muslims all over the Middle East.

 

Also, alot of the Jews that moved to Israel from Europe were holocaust survivors and also Jews that were kicked out of other Arab nations.  They weren't just "settlers" or "colonialists".  

 

Also, the Jews did not steal the Palestinians land.  They conquered it through war like everybody else.  This is a very important distinction that you are not grasping.  The British offered the Palestinians 38% of the land that they owned, they were the Landlords.  They refused and started a war with the Jews to obtain more than 38%.  They lost that war and ultimately got much less than 38%.  They should have taken the original offer...

[Elias Pettersson]

14 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Even if Hamas is rooted out, and there's a good chance it happens, will that really put an end to things? What comes next?

 

Israel can shut off the power, shut off the water, control who comes and goes, they can do any of this at any time for any reason. Palestinians are landlocked and blockaded, noncombative Palestinian men, women, and children have all been killed this year by Israeli forces. Land and homes continue to be seized. Tensions aren't just going to dissipate. The attacks on Israeli citizens by Hamas are awful, certainly, but are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives? It's not as if Hamas represents over a million Palestinians. 

 

Israel continues to encroach and colonize, I have a hard time seeing what are already miserable conditions for Palestinians improving any time soon. My speaking to this is not antisemitism, I simply have doubts regarding Israel's interest in the human rights of those who are about to be caught in the crossfire. 

 

If Hamas is destroyed then it is up to the UN and NATO to get involved at that point as you would potentially have a humanitarian crisis.  You can't just have millions of Palestinians homeless and without food and water.

 

Problem is IMO Hezbollah and the Taliban are going to get involved as well as Iran so this will end up becoming a Jihad war.  It could escalate into WW3 as Israel have nukes.  This will make the Ukraine/Russia war look like a puppy show...

[Playoff Beered]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If Hamas is destroyed then it is up to the UN and NATO to get involved at that point as you would potentially have a humanitarian crisis.  You can't just have millions of Palestinians homeless and without food and water.

 

Problem is IMO Hezbollah and the Taliban are going to get involved as well as Iran so this will end up becoming a Jihad war.  It could escalate into WW3 as Israel have nukes.  This will make the Ukraine/Russia war look like a puppy show...

 

Isreal needing to use nukes is a highly unlikely scenario, who is going to step up to the Israeli Air Force and if need be the US Air Force?

[24K]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Not sure "cleaning" is the right word there.  If you take land based on winning a war it's not really ethnic cleaning.  I mean did the Europeans "cleanse" North America?  

 

If anything, it is the Muslims who wanted to "cleanse" the Jews from the Middle East considering the only place the Jews have in the entire Middle East is a tiny spot by the sea.  The Jews are surrounded by Muslims all over the Middle East.

 

Also, alot of the Jews that moved to Israel from Europe were holocaust survivors and also Jews that were kicked out of other Arab nations.  They weren't just "settlers" or "colonialists".  

 

Also, the Jews did not steal the Palestinians land.  They conquered it through war like everybody else.  This is a very important distinction that you are not grasping.  The British offered the Palestinians 38% of the land that they owned, they were the Landlords.  They refused and started a war with the Jews to obtain more than 38%.  They lost that war and ultimately got much less than 38%.  They should have taken the original offer...

I think what you are failing to grasp with your 38% insistence was the Arab Palestinians were promised 100% of the land for their support in fighting against the Ottomans in WW1. The deal was later altered to only offer 38% back with the rest going to migrants from another continent. 

 

If you were in their shoes how would you react? Like you said, they fought for their land but was only given a sliver of what was promised while the other side was just given land without fighting. 

 

Man did the British made a whole mess of this thing. They are the master of creating conflicts between this and the whole Indian Pakistan debacle. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 24K

[Coconuts]

14 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

If Hamas is destroyed then it is up to the UN and NATO to get involved at that point as you would potentially have a humanitarian crisis.  You can't just have millions of Palestinians homeless and without food and water.

 

Problem is IMO Hezbollah and the Taliban are going to get involved as well as Iran so this will end up becoming a Jihad war.  It could escalate into WW3 as Israel have nukes.  This will make the Ukraine/Russia war look like a puppy show...

 

I dunno, hard to say what happens with Iran, particularly after after the death of Mahsa/Jina Amini. The civil unrest in Iran hasn't just disappeared. It's not as if they have many allies. I don't see the Iranian regime being prepared to openly provoke both Israel and the US. 

 

But yeah, I dunno, I just feel for the Palestinian people. While I do recognize that Israel should be able to defend itself I think their being an oppressive force or presence can simultaneously be true. I question the will of the UN or NATO to do much of anything considering the US alone sends Israel billions of dollars every year. 

 

At the end of the day Israel and it's allies likely roll over Hamas and the Palestinian people probably continue to suffer while Israel dictates their quality of life, I don't see why Israel wouldn't just maintain what's been the status quo. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Coconuts

[Mike Vanderhoek]

edited as I was misinformed. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Mike Vanderhoek

[24K]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

I dunno, hard to say what happens with Iran, particularly after after the death of Mahsa/Jina Amini. The civil unrest in Iran hasn't just disappeared. It's not as if they have many allies. I don't see the Iranian regime being prepared to openly provoke both Israel and the US. 

 

But yeah, I dunno, I just feel for the Palestinian people. While I do recognize that Israel should be able to defend itself I think their being an oppressive force or presence can simultaneously be true. I question the will of the UN or NATO to do much of anything considering the US alone sends Israel billions of dollars every year. 

Yep this ain't gonna be fixed until US wants to get it fixed. 

 

That ain't happening thanks to military industrial complex that make fat stacks out of this conflict. (More than likely arming both sides) 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, 24K said:

Yep this ain't gonna be fixed until US wants to get it fixed. 

 

That ain't happening thanks to military industrial complex that make fat stacks out of this conflict. (More than likely arming both sides) 

So zero chance of escalation because the elite wealthy class (world wide) live too good of lives to allow for that? 

[24K]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So zero chance of descalation because the elite wealthy class (world wide) live too good of lives to allow for that? 

FTFY

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Except that Hamas has targeted children specifically, the IDF has never specifically targeted children. Saying they are both violating the rights of children and causing injury and death is true but surely you see there's a difference there?

Really? Lots of reports of the opposite out there over the years. Israel's policy towards Palestine is disgusting while Hamas/Hezbollah and others actions towards Israel is disgusting. Have said for years that neither side here is 'good'. I also thought that the next nuclear bomb launched would be Israel on Iran but that's just me. 

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, 24K said:

Yep this ain't gonna be fixed until US wants to get it fixed. 

 

That ain't happening thanks to military industrial complex that make fat stacks out of this conflict. (More than likely arming both sides) 

 

Not sure they are funding Hamas directly. Perhaps humanitarian aid they send to Gaza might be getting taken advantage of by Hamas but that would require investigation to determine.

 

EU almost paused aid to Gaza in order to review whether or not their funds may have been getting taken advantage of but after Israel began their response, with buildings getting toppled and thousands of people displaced, they axed that and said aid would continue.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, 24K said:

FTFY

So no escalation to WWIII, starting with Iran v Israel and perhaps nukes? 

[24K]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So no escalation to WWIII, starting with Iran v Israel and perhaps nukes? 

OK no descalation of Isreali Palestianian conflict. That is what I meant. 

[24K]

8 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

Not sure they are funding Hamas directly. Perhaps humanitarian aid they send to Gaza might be getting taken advantage of by Hamas but that would require investigation to determine.

 

EU almost paused aid to Gaza in order to review whether or not their funds may have been getting taken advantage of but after Israel began their response, with buildings getting toppled and thousands of people displaced, they axed that and said aid would continue.

Aid is not what I am referring to. 

 

I am thinking more along the lines of backroom deals via shady intermediaries that funnel US made weapons to Hamas. Probably via the Saudis and one of the other terrorist organizations. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

35 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Not sure "cleaning" is the right word there.  If you take land based on winning a war it's not really ethnic cleaning.  I mean did the Europeans "cleanse" North America?  

 

If anything, it is the Muslims who wanted to "cleanse" the Jews from the Middle East considering the only place the Jews have in the entire Middle East is a tiny spot by the sea.  The Jews are surrounded by Muslims all over the Middle East.

 

Also, alot of the Jews that moved to Israel from Europe were holocaust survivors and also Jews that were kicked out of other Arab nations.  They weren't just "settlers" or "colonialists".  

 

Also, the Jews did not steal the Palestinians land.  They conquered it through war like everybody else.  This is a very important distinction that you are not grasping.  The British offered the Palestinians 38% of the land that they owned, they were the Landlords.  They refused and started a war with the Jews to obtain more than 38%.  They lost that war and ultimately got much less than 38%.  They should have taken the original offer...

so cleansing is the perfect word to describe the following:

 

- mass migrating to a land you have no citizenship or residence in 

- then once you’re there, massacring civilians to force them to flee their homes 

 

sorry I don’t consider that “war”. 
 

It doesn’t make the slightest bit of moral difference that this series of events was sanctioned by the British. 
 

the children of those people are the ones living in refugee camps in gaza, and who are losing what remaining homes they have left to Israeli settlement building in the West Bank 

 

 

if someone chases you out of your village with guns and bombs 

 

then offers you 38% of it 5 years later

 

i don’t expect you to be okay with that offer

[Elias Pettersson]

29 minutes ago, 24K said:

I think what you are failing to grasp with your 38% insistence was the Arab Palestinians were promised 100% of the land for their support in fighting agunst the Ottomans in WW1 and was altered only offered 38% back woth the rest going to migrants from another continent. 

 

If you were in their shoes how would you react. Like you said, they fought for thier land but was only given a sliver of what was promised while the other side was just given land without fighting. 

 

Man did the British made a whole mess of this thing. They are the master of creating conflicts between this and the whole Indian Pakistan debacle. 

 

I guess they should have gotten it in writing then.  Verbal promises don't really hold up in court...

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, 24K said:

Aid is not what I am referring to. 

 

I am thinking more along the lines of backroom deals via shady intermediaries that funnel US made weapons to Hamas. Probably via the Saudis and one of the other terrorist organizations. 

 

IDK that would probably be one of the most heinous things US would have ever done in it's foreign history if discovered. And that would be saying something. Playing two sides of a conflict for decades though that has resulted in death/hate. They would have blood on their hands and it would probably end up pushing Israel into Putin's arms.

 

They would gain more to lose. 

[Elias Pettersson]

35 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Isreal needing to use nukes is a highly unlikely scenario, who is going to step up to the Israeli Air Force and if need be the US Air Force?

 

Doesn't Iran have a nuke or two?  If so, it could get ugly...

[Sharpshooter]

21 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

Really? Lots of reports of the opposite out there over the years. Israel's policy towards Palestine is disgusting while Hamas/Hezbollah and others actions towards Israel is disgusting. Have said for years that neither side here is 'good'. I also thought that the next nuclear bomb launched would be Israel on Iran but that's just me. 

There are no ‘clean hands’. 
 

That’s the part that ‘we’ sometimes have a hard time wrapping ‘our’ heads around. 

Reminds me of an old Star Trek episode. ‘Let That Be Your Last Battlefield’. 
 

 

I believe it’s prescient, especially today. 

[Playoff Beered]

15 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

Really? Lots of reports of the opposite out there over the years. Israel's policy towards Palestine is disgusting while Hamas/Hezbollah and others actions towards Israel is disgusting. Have said for years that neither side here is 'good'. I also thought that the next nuclear bomb launched would be Israel on Iran but that's just me. 

 

You actually think that the IDF is specifically targeting kids? 

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

so cleansing is the perfect word to describe the following:

 

- mass migrating to a land you have no citizenship or residence in 

- then once you’re there, massacring civilians to force them to flee their homes 

 

sorry I don’t consider that “war”. 
 

It doesn’t make the slightest bit of moral difference that this series of events was sanctioned by the British. 
 

the children of those people are the ones living in refugee camps in gaza, and who are losing what remaining homes they have left to Israeli settlement building in the West Bank 

 

 

if someone chases you out of your village with guns and bombs 

 

then offers you 38% of it 5 years later

 

i don’t expect you to be okay with that offer

 

It's not that I would be okay with the offer, it's that 38% is better than zero which is where this is headed unfortunately.  People always try to negotiate more than they are offered, but if they end up getting less than the original offer they can't really complain.  

 

At the end of the day, there needs to be a two-state solution.  I am by no means advocating that the Palestinians should be put on the street homeless.  Serious negotiations need to take place.  However, that can only happen when the terrorists are eliminated.  That make take awhile.  Hamas isn't going to go down without a fight.  This is their Jihad.  They will take as many people as possible with them before they are eliminated from this earth...