Hamas attacking Israel

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Read the link I posted to you above.

it's behind a paywall.

 

It's also not even close to the largest campaign of all time and again, these kids aren't that stupid.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Warhippy said:

it's behind a paywall.

 

It's also not even close to the largest campaign of all time and again, these kids aren't that stupid.

 

Oh sorry - I'll try to post it for you tomorrow.

 

I have a gen z kid, I have a pretty good handle on where they get their info. Of course there has been some measure of influence via tik Tok in particular.

[Warhippy]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Oh sorry - I'll try to post it for you tomorrow.

 

I have a gen z kid, I have a pretty good handle on where they get their info. Of course there has been some measure of influence via tik Tok in particular.

I have a paywall thingee i use but for some reason It won't open that story

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Those who are citizens do hold all rights of citizenship. 

 

It does not mean there is not racism.  Systemic, obvious, or cultural. Offering citizenship, is it not a bridge to peaceful coexistence?

 

Honest question!

 

One i would like to ask @Odd. also, if willing to answer...  

 

 

 

My own answer contribution to this discussion;

 

I posted a video below three or five days ago? Let it simmer for a while, it did not get enough response IMO.  Underscoring  the profound impact of culture on this conflict!  

 

https://youtu.be/ggljfAfREjU  Won't imbed. Probably, while not graphicat all, due to it covering perhaps the most divisive issue? Its about 1967, during the infamous 6 day war. the ''Liberation of Hebron'' by Israel is the 1.5 minute video's title. Only a minute, I encourage everyone to watch it! 

 

Quote / Unquote;

 

* In 1967 the Jewish people took back their ancient capital. And reunited Jerusalem!

 

* The Jewish people also needed Hebron, the tomb of the fathers and mothers!      (Called the Cave of Patriarchs to Jews. Sanctuary of Abraham to Muslims.)

 

* Rabbi Goran went right to the Tomb of Machpelah, planted a makeshift flag of Israel! Then entered the ancestral burial grounds of the Jewish people. For the first time in 700 years!

 

This is the absolute beating heart of the entire debate is my suggestion! Hebron, Ramallah, Judae, Bethlehem, the Dead Sea. The area is full of linkage for virtually all cultural groups to have walked these mostly desert paths, for thousands of years.  @Ilunga has argued, correctly, the West Bank is considered an illegal occupation.  

 

@RomanPer has argued, I agree also , a divisive point massive volumes do not agree with for sure, Israel has a right to occupied territories for security.  No doubt, Roman has an attachment to the thought Jewish people have certain rights to their ancestral homes of culture & religion. Many people, certainly @Super19, probably @Odd., perhaps @Warhippy believe that Palestinian & Arabic populations in the West are prisoners, oppressed.  I also agree, in spite of my security beliefs, that Israel is not only heavy handed. But abusive, and has truly Occupied, begun the actual settlement of these captured territories. Considering their attachment, many Jews probably feel entitled?

 

Here is the thing? 'Palestinians' also claim this as their own.  That Jews should leave, full stop. Yet divisive as it is, attached as they are, it is well discussed that Israel has at times offered, or at least negotiated regarding, the two state solution of Gaza / West Bank.  This is profound! Absolutely profound. One extremist, or RW Jewish groups oppose.

 

Imagine being barred from your ancestral burial grounds for 700 years!

 

Yet negotiating its release in a peace deal? 

 

My belief is such a deal needs to suggest that these won't simply be Muslim territories? They must be Multicultural Territories.  Israel is heavy handed, people are abused, which MUST stop, yet Palestinians visit Al Aqsa every day. Jewish people were barred from such a site for 700 years. That is also a poor view.

 

How does Israel relinquish, but all cultures have access is my question & will access be embraced by Palestinians in a peace deal?

 

 

 

 

First off, thanks for acknowledging you read and appreciated my post about the ethics/morals behind this war.

Means a lot brother.

 

As for offering citizenship those people ( the Palestinians who lived in Israel

/Palestine ) citizenship, do you want Isreal to be like the Arab countries, who you rightfully point out were wrong to expel the Jewish populations from their countries ?

 

As for that Israeli Rabbi marching into Hebron and reclaiming it on religious grounds ?

 

What do most of the pro - Israel supporters, many of them anti - religion, think about this ?

I know what I think about this.

If you are basing your claims to land/ country on religious beliefs, then they have no real validity. 

 

I have stated a few times that the " ideal " solution would be a one state solution. 

 

Knowing this is not a reality, I have already offered my views in regards to what should happen.

 

[Ilunga]

36 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

That sounds great.... So how do we go from the current hamas leaders to that? 

 

 

 

Well as I have pointed out, and provided evidence for my claims, what is happening know is not only morally/ethically wrong, it isn't and very probably will not work. 

 

Hamas cannot be destroyed by using violence.

Isrealis themselves are coming to realise this. 

 

You know what my experience in life is, if you treat people with kindness and compassion they are more likely to be receptive to your beliefs. 

 

Try giving aid and shelter to the Palestinian people.

 

Take away their need for resistance.

There need to support an organisation like Hamas.

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

27 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Tbh this is just not a fair characterization of people's views on this. You can't shove everyone into a neat little box like this, it's far too complex.

 

Eg, is it your position that every single act by Israel in response to Oct 7 is wrong? Unless your answer is a hard yes, you're in the grey fog with the rest of us.

 

Did you read that Vox pop article.

The part in regards to the Israeli reporter, reporting that Isreal right from the start of this " war " has targeted civilians in a way they never have before.

This report was based on interviews with senior Isreali intelligence and military officials. 

 

Targeting civilians in war is wrong, full stop.

No grey area whatsoever.

 

 

[Ilunga]

34 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

ok dude hide this mess behind some spoilers.  That's an insane amount of spam even if it is used to justify your argument, that's insane

 

As I have explained, I have zero computer skills, I only have my phone, wouldn't know how to use spoilers. 

 

And please unless you have contempt for me, please

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Warhippy]

6 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

As I have explained, I have zero computer skills, I only have my phone, wouldn't know how to use spoilers. 

 

And please unless you have contempt for me, please

 

 

 

 

 

 

No contempt at all my dude.  That was just an insanely long post is all.  I also don't know how to put anything behind a spoiler wall.  

[Ilunga]

41 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

 

I will admit my memory is really fucked due to many serious concussions, however I can't remember you ever criticising Isreals actions.

 

Would love you to prove me wrong.

 

And I apologise in advance if I am wrong.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

No contempt at all my dude.  That was just an insanely long post is all.  I also don't know how to put anything behind a spoiler wall.  

 

I thought I was just posting the link.

After about a minute, all those fuckin tweets came up.

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I thought I was just posting the link.

After about a minute, all those fuckin tweets came up.

I ordered a pizza, and started scrolling and by the time I was done My wife was like....did you really eat all that pizza?

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I ordered a pizza, and started scrolling and by the time I was done My wife was like....did you really eat all that pizza?

 

It does kinda empathize my point about the " credibility " of news/information that is sourced from twitter. 

 

Yesterday when I researched that Citizens Free Press account, I saw a Steve Bannon clip, an association to Newsmax. 

 

For those that don't know Newsmax.

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/newsmax-bias-credibilty-reliability/

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It's been a while brother. 

 

I did some research on those " twitter sources " that @Sabrefan1 posted in regards to the protests at US universities.

 

Citizens Press 

Here are some other   "tweets" from them 

 

They seem to be big Trump supporters

 

 

 

And a whole lot of, well you decide. 

 

Then there are the tweets from Greg Abbott.

We all know who and what he is.

 

Then there are the Megatron " tweets "

 

 

These seem to be a mishmash of views that do criticise everyone from Israel to Zelensky 

Posting views of the Pope amongst others. 

 

On the basis of claims of violence perpetrated in US universities in that post, with these sources as " evidence " of which I saw no evidence of protestors being violent in the video contained in those " tweets "

 

All of a sudden there is outrage about the supposed violence committed by protestors. 

 

This is a country who has a history of shooting and killing their students who protest at their universities.

 

Texas 

 

Texas Prosecutor declines to charge student protestors at UT Austin.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4622482-texas-student-protesters-arrests-ut-austin-israel/

 

Reading the article, the charges were in relation to trespass not violence. 

 

Fuckin hysterical reaction to a bunch of bullshit.

 

@Sharpshooter are there any rules about spamming? This is pretty ridiculous 

[Ilunga]

32 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

@Sharpshooter are there any rules about spamming? This is pretty ridiculous 

 

Read my later posts Roman. 

 

I have zero computer skills, when I first posted those twitter sources, it was a link. 

 

And again it emphasizes my point about the credibility of information sourced from twitter. 

 

Instead of continually to appealing to the mods, why don't you address the actual information itself.

 

You did provide links to the foreign funding of US universities.

 

Can you provide evidence that these funds are used to fund the protests ?

 

Israeli/Jewish source in relation to funds that were not reported to the were not reported to the US department of education as required.

 

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-774728

 

" Institutions receiving such undocumented money, campuses receiving undocumented funds, exhibited twice as many campaigns to silence academics as those that did not.... From 2015 - 2020 institutions that accepted money from middle eastern donors had on average 300% 

more anti Semitic incidents than those institutions that did not. "

 

You are correct Qatar leads the list however look at who is on that list 

 

" Leading the list of countries that providing the highest levels of undocumented funding is Qatar, contributing an astonishing 2.7 billion.

This is followed by England Saudi Arabia, Bermuda, Canada, Hong Kong, Japan, Switzerland, India, Germany and the United Arab Emirates."

 

I have only posted the facts from this article, not opinions.

 

I condemn the any anti semitism anywhere.

There seems to be a rise in anti semitism in Universities with undocumented funds from the middle east, stop that funding.

 

Again Roman, I post facts with out fear or favour.

 

Unlike you.

 

 

 

Edited April 26 by Ilunga

[Rook]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It's been a while brother. 

 

I did some research on those " twitter sources " that @Sabrefan1 posted in regards to the protests at US universities.

 

Citizens Press 

Here are some other   "tweets" from them 

 

They seem to be big Trump supporters

 

 

 

And a whole lot of, well you decide. 

 

Then there are the tweets from Greg Abbott.

We all know who and what he is.

 

Then there are the Megatron " tweets "

 

 

These seem to be a mishmash of views that do criticise everyone from Israel to Zelensky 

Posting views of the Pope amongst others. 

 

On the basis of claims of violence perpetrated in US universities in that post, with these sources as " evidence " of which I saw no evidence of protestors being violent in the video contained in those " tweets "

 

All of a sudden there is outrage about the supposed violence committed by protestors. 

 

This is a country who has a history of shooting and killing their students who protest at their universities.

 

Texas 

 

Texas Prosecutor declines to charge student protestors at UT Austin.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4622482-texas-student-protesters-arrests-ut-austin-israel/

 

Reading the article, the charges were in relation to trespass not violence. 

 

Fuckin hysterical reaction to a bunch of bullshit.

the only BS is this childish post you just did!  Never seen anything like it.. literally burned 4 percent of my phone battery just scrolling through your 100 links to get to the next poster. Grow up dude, you are way too old to be doing stuff like this.  

[Ilunga]

13 minutes ago, Rook said:

the only BS is this childish post you just did!  Never seen anything like it.. literally burned 4 percent of my phone battery just scrolling through your 100 links to get to the next poster. Grow up dude, you are way too old to be doing stuff like this.  

 

You should read my posts after this mate.

 

I explained I have no computer skills.

When I first posted those twitter sources, they were simply links.  

 

And again, they prove my point about the credibility of information sourced off twitter.

 

And anyway who is asking to to read them.

You could just scroll down through them, or ignore them all together. 

It took me a few seconds to scroll down to the next post.

 

 

 

How about you actually contribute something to this discussion. 

 

I am interested in everybody's views opinions on this unjust conflict.

[RomanPer]

32 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

Again Roman, I post facts with out fear or favour.

 

Unlike you.

 

 

 

 

You post opinions that you present as facts. And please enlighten me, who do I fear?

 

Instead of sitting here all day long, writing modern version of “Peace and War” (in size, not in substance), I run a business so I can make money to support both my homelands. I do, you talk.

[Ghostsof1915]

I've heard reports of a peace proposal. Yet I can't find anything in the news.

Maybe it's just a trial balloon. But if it means people get the help they need I'm all for it.

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

You post opinions that you present as facts. And please enlighten me, who do I fear?

 

Instead of sitting here all day long, writing modern version of “Peace and War” (in size, not in substance), I run a business so I can make money to support both my homelands. I do, you talk.

 

These are not opinions Roman.

These are facts.

Words like Apartheid, collective Punishment, racism, fascism and unjust/unethical wars have meanings for a reason.

 

I post evidence that back up my assertions that the meanings of these words apply to this war, and Israels past and present treatment of the Palestinians.

A lot of my sources are Isreali/Jewish.

 

I print out the information so it is there for all to see.

You are under no obligation to read my posts.

 

So you can't provide evidence for your claims that foreign funding is behind these University protests.

I thought as much.

I couldn't either. 

 

So now you are extolling your virtues as a businessman.

 

I totally admit that I inherited a business that my parents built up.

They didn't just build a business, they bought and cleared the farm.

They were one of the first to grow proteas for cut flower production in this country.

They actually " created " some of the protea varieties on my farm.

It was their dream that my brother or myself took over their legacy, and more importantly kept the their reputation for the quality of our product intact.

I have done this.

 

Many times before they died they told me they were extremely proud/happy of what I have done, and the person I am.

If I was driven by the urge to make money, I wouldn't be farming.

 

This, to me, is worth more than all the money in the world.

 

I currently have a fractured toe, MTB crash.

And the first half of the year is a lot quieter on the farm than the second half. 

So yes I have more time.

It is also a distraction for me, in relation to events in my personal life, as well as being a subject I have always had strong feelings about.

 

As usual you try making it about me, rather than the information I present.

 

Where did I say you fear anyone.

 

Again words, sayings, have meanings.

 

You should look up the meaning of the saying  "without fear or favour "

 

 

[RomanPer]

42 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

These are not opinions Roman.

These are facts.

Words like Apartheid, collective Punishment, racism, fascism and unjust/unethical wars have meanings for a reason.

 

I post evidence that back up my assertions that the meanings of these words apply to this war, and Israels past and present treatment of the Palestinians.

A lot of my sources are Isreali/Jewish.

 

I print out the information so it is there for all to see.

You are under no obligation to read my posts.

 

So you can't provide evidence for your claims that foreign funding is behind these University protests.

I thought as much.

I couldn't either. 

 

So now you are extolling your virtues as a businessman.

 

I totally admit that I inherited a business that my parents built up.

They didn't just build a business, they bought and cleared the farm.

They were one of the first to grow proteas for cut flower production in this country.

They actually " created " some of the protea varieties on my farm.

It was their dream that my brother or myself took over their legacy, and more importantly kept the their reputation for the quality of our product intact.

I have done this.

 

Many times before they died they told me they were extremely proud/happy of what I have done, and the person I am.

If I was driven by the urge to make money, I wouldn't be farming.

 

This, to me, is worth more than all the money in the world.

 

I currently have a fractured toe, MTB crash.

And the first half of the year is a lot quieter on the farm than the second half. 

So yes I have more time.

It is also a distraction for me, in relation to events in my personal life, as well as being a subject I have always had strong feelings about.

 

As usual you try making it about me, rather than the information I present.

 

Where did I say you fear anyone.

 

Again words, sayings, have meanings.

 

You should look up the meaning of the saying  "without fear or favour "

 

 

 

You said “unlike you”. Actually, I’m done engaging with you. After you mention a myriad of terms that are clearly opinions about Israel, not facts, yet you present them as facts. There’s zero reason for me to continue talking to you.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

You said “unlike you”. Actually, I’m done engaging with you. After you mention a myriad of terms that are clearly opinions about Israel, not facts, yet you present them as facts. There’s zero reason for me to continue talking to you.

 

You keep saying this, yet you keep coming back. 

 

And, unlike you, was a reference, to with out fear or favour. 

 

It means in an equal and fair way.

Justice and Fairness. 

 

 

 

For example I criticise both Hamas and the IDF, for their actions.

 

You don't.

You favour one side, which is fair enough, however you don't acknowledge the injustices they commit.

That is not acting without fear or favour, ergo the unlike you.

 

As for facts Roman 

 

For an example the World's greatest living ethicist in regards to how war is conducted Michael Walzer, he is Jewish.

He has been a huge supporter of Israel for decades.

He started off a a big supporter of this war, yet now he is stating that this is an unethical war, that it is essentially unwinnable.

Isrealis within Isreal are beginning to agree with this. 

 

And what about the Isreali reporter whose report details how Isreal is Targeting civilians like it never has before.

He cited Isreali military and intelligence sources.

 

These are facts Roman.

I don't need to be told that killing women and children, and causing the conditions for the starvation of hundreds of thousands more is unjust. 

These are facts that any rational human being accepts.

 

Now let's get your claims about Palestinian/Isreali citisens are treated equally, they don't face discrimination.

 

Israeli source Roman

 

" Isreals government is a clear and present danger for its Arab Palestinian citizens "

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-03-09/ty-article/.premium/israels-government-is-a-clear-and-present-danger-for-its-arab-palestinian-citizens/00000186-c72c-d069-a3df-c73c17e90000

 

Even taking into account Isreal's history of discrimination against its Arab citizens, the measures that Netanyahu's government is advancing still stand out for their horrifyingly specific persecution of the country's Arab minority. " 

 

Why would Isreali/Jewish voices claim this if it wasn't true.

One only has to research this to see there is evidence to back up this claim. 

 

I have already posted articles that detail how many prominent Isrealis and Isreali human rights organisations consider Isreal an arpartheid state.

Here is another senior Isreali figure to add to that list

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-idf-general-likens-military-control-of-west-bank-to-nazi-germany/

 

" A former IDF general ( Amiram Levin ) argued that Israels control of the west bank has similarities to descrimnitary policies in Nazi Germany."

 

" The interviewer asked if he agreed with a may 2016 speech by former Maretz MK Yair Golan, who was IDF deputy chief of staff at the time, in which he said that the processes in Isreal is were similar to some in Europe in the years leading up to the Holocaust.

" We find it difficult to say but it's the truth " Levin responded, " look around Hebron, look at the streets, streets that Arabs can't use only Jews, that's exactly what happened in countries like that.

Pressed on whether he saw similarities between Nazi Germany Levin said, " of course, it hurts, it's not nice but that's the reality. It's better to deal with it, even if it is hard than to ignore it. "

 

Tell me Roman, why do all these Isreali voices I have posted in the past and Amiram and Golan state these things ?

They obviously have proved their loyalty to Isreal in the past to rise to such powerful positions.

Why do they feel the need to speak out ?

 

 

This is totally ignoring what the international community has to say on these subjects.

[Canuck Surfer]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Open annexation or "term adjacent genocide" while the US and UN stand by and applaud or at least sit complicit

 

Is out to lunch.

 

How do you feel about the Hashemite Kingdom?  Ruling over Jordan while 70% of its population is Palestinian. This portion of 'Palestine' is also where 80% of of its people landed between 1918 & 1948. 

 

Bashar al-Asaad, ruling over Syria as a totalitarian police state.   Alawite being an aprox. 20% minority.  The Taliban take over of Afghanistan. I am not sure what is happening in Iraq. The slaughter in Syria is ten times what has occurred in Gaza. 

 

In Gaza, Hamas at least 'represents' a majority. The same might be said of the Saudi Kingdom, Iran, Turkey.  Where minorities are almost non existent. Or oppressed and face similar systemic removal. Armenian Christians are suddenly, again, squeezed by Azeri's & Turkey.  Lets not talk about how well these countries offer dignity & courtesy to Yazidi & Kurdish people.  

 

Are these not examples of Genocide? Apartheid? 

 

Its convenient to hold the UN, US as complicit; yet Israeli neighbours, ruled by terrorists or autocrats, immunity from blame in this conflict. This is not one side only guilt!

 

 

Israel's 'enemies' have to embrace a place for Israel and other cultures in the Middle East.  All too many simply posture for their own piece of what shakes out. 

[Ilunga]

I must admit that I have been distracted from the reason I re-entered this thread after a month away,by the posters who quote my post in regards to other topics.

 

This is why I came back, the suffering of the women and specifically the children. 

 

While this is only a month old, this article details how Palestinians are 

 

" Boiling Weeds and eating Animal Feed to stave off hunger " 

 

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/29/1241148952/gaza-hunger-famine-aid-israel-hamas-war

 

" There's no milk, no protein, no bread, no clean water, no fruits or vegetables " Tafesh says.

 

Her kids constantly cry from hunger, begging for bread. She sees them wasting away, bones protruding and feels helpless.

 

Her youngest boy is 4 - before the war he was active and playful. Now he spends most of the day sleeping.

 

" Every night I go to sleep in fear of waking up one of to find one of  my children dead " says Tafesh. "

 

Like FFS how can anyone with any sort of compassion/empathy not be moved by this.

 

 

Edited April 26 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I did some research on those " twitter sources " that @Sabrefan1 posted in regards to the protests at US universities.

 

Citizens Press 

Here are some other   "tweets" from them 

 

Why did you post all these?

 

Its too big a blast to make sense of.  Do you believe their media source is Trump BOT farms?  

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Why did you post all these?

 

Its too big a blast to make sense of.  Do you believe their media source is Trump BOT farms?  

 

For the dozenth time

 

When I posted them, it was a link to their twitter sites, when I submitted the post it turned to that about a minute after submitting that post.

 

When I still go back to check it out, they first come up as links, then turn into a selection of their tweets.

 

 

What I know, and what that proves, is that those sources are not credible sources of information. 

 

Can't you tell from the tweets that are posted. 

 

Free Citizens is alt rightwing site.

 

Megatron while criticising Isreal, had a fake news tweet about Zelensky.

Amongst others.

Edited April 26 by Ilunga