Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Molotov cocktails and fireworks can be very dangerous my friend. Also, why are these kids throwing stuff at soldiers?  Do your kids do that?  
 

I’ve seen teenagers killed on the street for doing much less. It’s a pretty despicable place we live in sometimes. 
 

I do not condone the killing of women and children no matter the circumstances. However, these whataboutisms in this thread aren’t really going to solve the current situation. 
 

Maybe we should all focus on today and what is happening right now versus what happened 20, 30, 50 years ago. 

 

If you were persecuted, had your freedom taken away, lived in ghetto like conditions with not much else to do, maybe as a teenager you might do the same, yes ?

 

I believe you are aware of my history, I did some really stupid $hit as a teenager.

The police actually shot above our heads a few times. 

 

Maybe you can ignore the past events, I guarantee you, people on both sides of this conflict aren't. 

That's why this circle of hatred continues.

[Playoff Beered]

@ all in this thread.

I am not saying that Isreal is blameless nor am I insisting only one side is killing innocents. Words mean things.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, Odd. said:

You’re exactly right. I do. Especially when they’ve made 0 preparations.

 

What is your point anyways? Is that your way of desensitizing the apartheid happening in Israel?

What’s my point?  I’ve been in this thread talking about the current situation. You and others keep jumping in and bringing up whataboutisms to try and justify what is currently going on. 
 

You are the one that brought up the Bosnian war and said fuck Israel. So we know you hate Israel. Good for you. You made your point. 

[Alflives]

32 minutes ago, 24K said:

What. I ain't arguing that IDF don't target innocent people. 

 

I am arguing that they don't give a damn about collateral damage if they can get their guy. Being completely oblivious to damage caused in their operations is not excusable either. 

Is that what this thread is about though? Isn’t the thread title HAMAS attacking Israel?  Maybe we need a different thread for your views? 

[Elias Pettersson]

14 minutes ago, 24K said:

Dude there are letters before that with maps that define the area. This ain't the only one.

 

Yes you may be able to do what you want but that doesn't mean the Arabs should just take it like you suggested. 

 

You do this kind of thing in business, you burn bridges and consequences will follow. Well we see the consequences now don't we. 

The consequences for the Palestinians are they are about to be wiped from the earth due to their loyalty to the terrorists. I think that is going to be much worse than what happens to the people of Israel. 

[24K]

Just now, Alflives said:

Is that what this thread is about though? Isn’t the thread title HAMAS attacking Israel?  Maybe we need a different thread for your views? 

Hey I am all for changing the title to Holy Land Conflict.

[Odd.]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is that what this thread is about though? Isn’t the thread title HAMAS attacking Israel?  Maybe we need a different thread for your views? 

Wtf Alf

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is that what this thread is about though? Isn’t the thread title HAMAS attacking Israel?  Maybe we need a different thread for your views? 

Yes this thread is about the current Hamas attack on Israel. Last I checked anyways. Maybe someone else can start a new thread on the Israel/Palestine conflict of the last 75 years. 

[moosehead]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The consequences for the Palestinians are they are about to be wiped from the earth due to their loyalty to the terrorists. I think that is going to be much worse than what happens to the people of Israel. 

 

Does it make you happy to see innocent palestinian civilians killed by Israeli military bombing ?  Do you approve of this ?   Do you think Palenstinian lives are less important than other lives ?  I am confused by your excitment about the pending killing of Palestinian civilians - most that do not even support Hamas terrorists 

 

I personally abhor violence of any kind . To any one.    Especially innocent civilians that only want to live life free and not in conflict. 

 

PS - i do enjoy a good hockey fight though....

Edited October 11, 2023 by moosehead

[Alflives]

Just now, Odd. said:

Wtf Alf

Alf cannot condone what HAMAS did. It’s just not justifiable to target innocent women and children. And now HAMAS is holding women and children hostage. Fight the soldiers. Fight those who are actively fighting. What HAMAS did was not that. 

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Alf cannot condone what HAMAS did. It’s just not justifiable to target innocent women and children. And now HAMAS is holding women and children hostage. Fight the soldiers. Fight those who are actively fighting. What HAMAS did was not that. 

 

No one here is condoning what Hamas has done.  It is uncondonable... if that is a word.....

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Does it make you happy to see innocent palestinian civilians killed by Israeli military bombing ?  Do you approve of this ?   Do you think Palenstinian lives are less important than other lives ?  I am confused by your excitment about the pending killing of Palestinian civilians - most that do not even support Hamas terrorists 

 

I personally abhor violence of any kind . To any one.    Especially innocent civilians that only want to live life free and not in conflict. 

So what HAMAS did is okay? So murdering innocent women and children is justified? 
Why doesn’t HAMAS fight man up against soldiers in uniform?  Why attack women and children? Seems cowardly to me. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

No one here is condoning what Hamas has done.  It is uncondonable... if that is a word.....

100% agree. 

[24K]

15 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The consequences for the Palestinians are they are about to be wiped from the earth due to their loyalty to the terrorists. I think that is going to be much worse than what happens to the people of Israel. 

I was referring to Britain's original sin that lead to all of this powder cake as the consequence. 

 

Hamas is despicable for doing this as they condemned their own people to be obliterated not to mention the reported atrocities. 

 

No, Palestinians won't be wiped off the face of the earth as that would also involve going armageddon on the West Bank. Doing that would ensure the global condemnation and pariah state status of Israel. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 24K

[24K]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So what HAMAS did is okay? So murdering innocent women and children is justified? 
Why doesn’t HAMAS fight man up against soldiers in uniform?  Why attack women and children? Seems cowardly to me. 

Alf put the glass down. You had one too many whisky. No one here is cheerleading Hamas. Anyone that do need to look themselves in the mirror and have an honest conversation with themselves. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 24K

[moosehead]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So what HAMAS did is okay? So murdering innocent women and children is justified? 
Why doesn’t HAMAS fight man up against soldiers in uniform?  Why attack women and children? Seems cowardly to me. 

 

What Hamas did is not OK.   It is not justifiable. It is horrific.

Hamas doesn't directly fight Israeli forces because they do not have the  weapons / resources to be able to do this.  I guess if USA was sponsoring Hamas instead of Israel the situation might be different.    Yes i agree it is cowardly. 

 

Israel's bombing of Palenstinians homes is also cowardly.  Israels seizing palastinian homes and giving these homes to american jewish settlers moving to Israel is also cowardly.

 

The whole situation is a mess.   The world needs to act now and help  negotiate peace in this region.  Or do Palestinian lives not matter ?

[King Heffy]

15 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yes this thread is about the current Hamas attack on Israel. Last I checked anyways. Maybe someone else can start a new thread on the Israel/Palestine conflict of the last 75 years. 

And the history of the region helps provide context, much like it does in the Ukraine thread.

[moosehead]

4 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

And the history of the region helps provide context, much like it does in the Ukraine thread.

 

Some people don't want context. They see only black and white.   Simpler for them to see the world like that. 

[Sharpshooter]

[Elias Pettersson]

26 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Does it make you happy to see innocent palestinian civilians killed by Israeli military bombing ?  Do you approve of this ?   Do you think Palenstinian lives are less important than other lives ?  I am confused by your excitment about the pending killing of Palestinian civilians - most that do not even support Hamas terrorists 

 

I personally abhor violence of any kind . To any one.    Especially innocent civilians that only want to live life free and not in conflict. 

 

PS - i do enjoy a good hockey fight though....

My excitement about the pending killing of Palestinian civilians?  
 

Are you trying to be a dick on purpose or by accident?  

[moosehead]

40 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The consequences for the Palestinians are they are about to be wiped from the earth due to their loyalty to the terrorists. I think that is going to be much worse than what happens to the people of Israel. 

 

You use language like this that is over the top....     14 million Palestinians will never be wiped from the earth.  Wiped from the earth also seems like a very clean process......    Murder is never clean. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by moosehead

[Alflives]

21 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

What Hamas did is not OK.   It is not justifiable. It is horrific.

Hamas doesn't directly fight Israeli forces because they do not have the  weapons / resources to be able to do this.  I guess if USA was sponsoring Hamas instead of Israel the situation might be different.    Yes i agree it is cowardly. 

 

Israel's bombing of Palenstinians homes is also cowardly.  Israels seizing palastinian homes and giving these homes to american jewish settlers moving to Israel is also cowardly.

 

The whole situation is a mess.   The world needs to act now and help  negotiate peace in this region.  Or do Palestinian lives not matter ?

I don’t understand. Either HAMAS targeted and murdered innocent women and children or they didn’t. Are you suggesting it’s this innocent peoples’ fault? Are you suggesting HAMAS is justified in what they did?

Sorry, but Alf cannot agree.HAMAS could certainly fight against soldiers. They targeted innocent women and children. Don’t see how anyone can condone that. 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Odd. said:

 You don’t really care about others, as long as they’re Zionist. 

 

This beyond stupid, whatever.

[Elias Pettersson]

25 minutes ago, 24K said:

I was referring to Britain's original sin that lead to all of this powder cake as the consequence. 

 

Hamas is despicable for doing this as they condemned their own people to be obliterated not to mention the reported atrocities. 

 

No, Palestinians won't be wiped off the face of the earth as that would also involve going armageddon on the West Bank. Doing that would ensure the global condemnation and pariah state status of Israel. 

The British not holding their end of the bargain is not Israel’s fault. They owned the land and ultimately made the decision to offer the Palestinians only 38%. So they are somewhat responsible for everything that has happened as a result of that decision. 
 

I don’t think Israel is going to be the sole decision maker in all of this. The way I see it playing out is that Hezbollah, the Taliban and Iran will all get involved in the conflict and will all attack Israel. The US will back Israel and all hell will break loose. 
 

What happens after that is anyone’s guess but the threat of a nuclear war is very real. This conflict will make the Ukraine/Russis war look like a puppy show. It’s going to get real ugly. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

13 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Where does it say in those writings that the Palestinians should receive more than 38% of the land?  

Great question - 

 

Letter on July 14, Hussein to Mcmahon:

 

"England to acknowledge the independence of the Arab countries, bounded on the North by Mersina and Adana up to 37 degrees of latitude, on which degree fall Birijik, Urfa, Mardin, Midiat, Jerizat (Ibn `Umar), Amadia, up to the border of Persia; on the east by the borders of Persia up to the Gulf of Basra; on the South by the Indian Ocean, with the exception of the position of Aden to remain as it is; on the west by the Red Sea, the Mediterranean Sea up to Mersina."

 

Oct 24, Mcmahon to Hussein:

 

" As for those regions lying within those frontiers wherein Great Britain is free to act without detriment to the interests of her ally, France... Great Britain is prepared to recognise and support the independence of the Arabs in all the regions within the limits demanded by the Sherif of Mecca."

 

 

I would also like the opportunity to explain the chronology here, because I think this is the root of the misunderstanding, and why people think "settler colonialism" is just rhetoric rather than a factual basis for what occured.

 

First of all - its important to acknowledge that in 1915, there was no state of "Israel" nor or was there a country known as "Palestine".

 

What there was was multiple towns and cities that made up the geographic region that we now know as Israel and Palestine with the following demographic makeup:

 

Jewish: 90,000

Non-Jewish (mix of Muslim and Christian): 600,000

 

Jewish people in the territories known as Israel/Palestine today amounted to around 12-13%. 

 

1917: Balfour declaration, and the British supports the mass migration of Jewish people in Europe and North America to "Palestine" (at this point this is what the entire territory was called). 

 

Between 1915 and 1947, over 500,000 Jewish people migrate from Europe and North America to "Palestine". To make room for those Jewish people, the native population was evicted from their homes and chased out of the towns they lived in. Its important to note that in 1936, in the middle of all of this, the native population TRIED to fight back and protest this displacement - they revolted against the British (the migration was sanctioned by Britain and Britain had declared Palestine its mandate), and got crushed. 

 

In this time period, Jewish terrorist organizations, including Irgun, use violence including bombing arab villages and towns to encourage the still majority Arab population to flee key areas including Jerusalem. See Deir Yassin Massacre as an example. Jewish terrorist organizations also target the British, who at this point are growing concerned about just how many european and north american jewish people are colonizing Palestine, and try to limit the migration numbers. The most notable event here is the bombing of the King David Hotel by Irgun. 

 

Now after ALL of this - the UN in 1947 recommends a partition plan, an Arab state and a separate Jewish state, meaning that people who were forced to leave their homes would never be able to return. In 1948, the still minority Jewish population declares an Independent jewish state.

 

Over the span of 30 years, the native Palestinian population was effectively removed from their homes, and conquered by military force. 

 

Fast forward to today: the 2 million people in Gaza are the children and grandchildren of the people cleansed from their towns to make way for European and North American Jewish migrants. Israel removed its illegal settlements from Gaza, but did put up walls and assumed complete control over the import of goods into Gaza, including food, water, medical supplies, building materials, etc. These people are effectively prisoners, with no ability to leave. 

 

What these people want - is to go home to the towns they came from. Israel cannot let that happen, because if they do, that means welcoming back so many Arabs that Israel is no longer majority Jewish. 

 

There is literally no debate - this WAS settler colonialism. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant. The territory now known as Israel was conquered by European and North American born people between the 1920s and 1930s, exercising their "birthright" to land that was promised to them by God. They needed to remove the local native population which they did.

 

What we are dealing with today in Gaza and the West Bank IS that native population that was removed.

 

THAT is where we need to start, if you're truly going to understand why terrorism exists in Palestine.