Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

Its basically impossible to argue that whats going on in the occupied territories (The west bank) is not apartheid

 

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20130304_new_fence_in_hebron

 

^ the street above now allows Palestinians to walk on both sides, but theres many of these streets its not just one. Its basically any area in the vicinity of an illegal Israeli settlement. 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-09-10/ty-article/.premium/the-death-throes-of-a-palestinian-neighborhood/0000017f-e7da-df2c-a1ff-ffdb18180000

 

Its not part of Israel, its occupied territory, and within it, the israeli military has chopped it up and set up certain streets Palestinians are not allowed to walk, or not allowed to drive. 

 

If you want to see a video of this actually being enforced, here it is. Israel doesn't deny this or try to hide it at all.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155092203769992

 

 

Whats going on inside Israel itself is NOT apartheid, this is the part most people get wrong. 

 

How about we just discuss Israel and it's issues on its own merits? Trying to force an analogue that doesn't really fit doesn't help us identify the unique issues going on, imo.

[HarbularyBattery]

14 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

How about we just discuss Israel and it's issues on its own merits? Trying to force an analogue that doesn't really fit doesn't help us identify the unique issues going on, imo.

couldnt agree more, no need to force an analogy that doesnt apply. apartheid though has a legal definition, and this is it, is this not accurate based on the info above?

 

anyway game is starting, go canucks go

 

Apartheid refers to the implementation and maintenance of a system of legalized racial segregation in which one racial group is deprived of political and civil rights

 

anyway game is starting, go canucks go

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

Apartheid refers to the implementation and maintenance of a system of legalized racial segregation in which one racial group is deprived of political and civil rights

 

Have you looked at the ethnic makeup / diversity of;

 

Jordan?   94% Arab

Syria?     70% Arab, balance Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Circassians, Mandeans and Turkomen. Virtually all Muslim. The largest are the Kurds at 2.5M of 21 Million.

Gaza?    92 percent of West Bankers and 99 percent of Gazans are Sunni Muslim, the rest Christians.

Egypt?   90% Muslim.

Iraq?    98% Muslim, interesting as 20 years ago it had 2 Million Christians & several hundred thousand Jews. 55% Sunni / 40 Sunni among including 10% non Arab Kurd.

Turkey?   80%; Ethnic Turks are a vast majority ethnic group at over 80 %. While heavily persecuted Kurds at 20% makeup almost all of the balance.

Yemen?   Has a rough 65% / 35 % Sunni / Shia mix with less than 1% of residents non Muslim.

S. Arabia?  80% are Arab, Combinations of Syrian & Afro Arab settled thousands of years, all Sunni Muslim makeup 15%? Whites aprox 100,000. Foreign workers 5%.

Israel?  74% Jewish, 18% Muslim, 2 % Christian & 1.6% Druce.

Lebanon?   1/3 Sunni Arab, 1/3 Shii Arab, 1/3rd Christian.  

 

Seeing almost all ME countries, notably Iraq & Turkey, having disposed of virtually all minorities. Millions upon millions in the last thirty years. Many recently, and its similar in Africa & all the Stans. Where places like Syria, Yemen & Iraq having the biggest diversity of Muslim or Arab cultures, next being Lebanon? These specifically are in almost constant civil war fighting for internal controls. It's not surprising those not allowed undisputed domain in Israel call foul? That all these attacked Israel in 1948! 

 

They claim Palestinians are mistreated, which they are. That said? Were minorities treated better in Syria or Jordan! Those on death row, life sentences do not make the best harbingers, polling regarding social justice laws others. Hamas; 'I like to kill and dispose of everybody?' I don't think anyone else should be allowed!

 

Turkey has been doing it slowly, but still radically like Hitler for hundreds of years. 

 

When does Apartheid become ethnic cleansing; after everyone else is gone in your Middle Eastern neighborhood of choice?

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Ruling over Aleppo's Ruins

 

Where is the outrage, calls for humanity in Aleppo? 350,000 civilians died. 500,000 total & 2 million injured. It lays almost as devasted as Gaza, but largely unattended or re-developed since bombarded in April 2016. Hamas & Assad are in the same sphere, have had disputes and allegiance shifts. Yet fought mostly on the same side, with the same suppliers, same agenda, backers, tactics. As did Hezbollah. All having the same goal. Profits by mob control of each new street. Street by street for regions. Millions, billions in some cases in illegal arm sales, grabbing of industries, control of trade routes, black markets, goods.  The farther from legitimacy you can press democracy; plunder as untaxed profit for your militia group.  

 

Please do not believe Hamas returned these profits to dispossessed Syrians, even Palestinians.

 

6 MILLION people displaced! 

 

People are prioritizing 700,000 displaced 80 years ago. Hamas, the 'victims' here, were not called out just years ago when instigators?  Much of Oct 7 paid for with payola from such activities. Offering even lower standards for minorities, catastrophically higher casualties. 

 

Its not that Israel should be doing what it is doing? Jews are not the region's main antagonist. Hamas either, but rely on it's ''lifestyle'' of activities. Terror, lawlessness.

 

There are bigger problems to tackle in the Middle East.

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Have you looked at the ethnic makeup / diversity of;

 

Jordan?   94% Arab

Syria?     70% Arab, balance Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Circassians, Mandeans and Turkomen. Virtually all Muslim. The largest are the Kurds at 2.5M of 21 Million.

Gaza?    92 percent of West Bankers and 99 percent of Gazans are Sunni Muslim, the rest Christians.

Egypt?   90% Muslim.

Iraq?    98% Muslim, interesting as 20 years ago it had 2 Million Christians & several hundred thousand Jews. 55% Sunni / 40 Sunni among including 10% non Arab Kurd.

Turkey?   80%; Ethnic Turks are a vast majority ethnic group at over 80 %. While heavily persecuted Kurds at 20% makeup almost all of the balance.

Yemen?   Has a rough 65% / 35 % Sunni / Shia mix with less than 1% of residents non Muslim.

S. Arabia?  80% are Arab, Combinations of Syrian & Afro Arab settled thousands of years, all Sunni Muslim makeup 15%? Whites aprox 100,000. Foreign workers 5%.

Israel?  74% Jewish, 18% Muslim, 2 % Christian & 1.6% Druce.

Lebanon?   1/3 Sunni Arab, 1/3 Shii Arab, 1/3rd Christian.  

 

Seeing almost all ME countries, notably Iraq & Turkey, having disposed of virtually all minorities. Millions upon millions in the last thirty years. Many recently, and its similar in Africa & all the Stans. Where places like Syria, Yemen & Iraq having the biggest diversity of Muslim or Arab cultures, next being Lebanon? These specifically are in almost constant civil war fighting for internal controls. It's not surprising those not allowed undisputed domain in Israel call foul? That all these attacked Israel in 1948! 

 

They claim Palestinians are mistreated, which they are. That said? Were minorities treated better in Syria or Jordan! Those on death row, life sentences do not make the best harbingers, polling regarding social justice laws others. Hamas; 'I like to kill and dispose of everybody?' I don't think anyone else should be allowed!

 

Turkey has been doing it slowly, but still radically like Hitler for hundreds of years. 

 

When does Apartheid become ethnic cleansing; after everyone else is gone in your Middle Eastern neighborhood of choice?

 

 

 

 

Excellent post. One comment specifically stood out to me. “Hamas; “‘ I like to kill and dispose of everybody?’ I don’t think anyone else should be allowed.”

And Hamas wants a world caliphate. So why would anyone, who isn’t in 100% agreement with all Hamas does, support their actions in any way? 
Unless I’m misunderstanding Hamas wants to control the world and anyone who isn’t following their beliefs dies. 

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Excellent post. One comment specifically stood out to me. “Hamas; “‘ I like to kill and dispose of everybody?’ I don’t think anyone else should be allowed.”

And Hamas wants a world caliphate. So why would anyone, who isn’t in 100% agreement with all Hamas does, support their actions in any way? 
Unless I’m misunderstanding Hamas wants to control the world and anyone who isn’t following their beliefs dies. 

 

As I have already pointed out to you, you are incorrect in your assessment that Hamas' wants a world caliphate.

You are confusing them with ISIS.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/21/hamas-isis-are-not-the-same-00128107

 

" A State vs a Caliphate "

 

" Hamas is a nationalist organisation that seeks the destruction of Isreal and it's replacement with a Palestinian state. It is also a religious militant group, to be sure, styled in the Islamist mode of the Muslim Brotherhood, from which it originated. But it seeks a state that would be like any other in the international community, with a seat at the United Nations, and in regional organisations like the Arab league. ITS OBJECTIVES ARE LOCAL. 

 

 

The Islamic State on the other hand, has transnational goals, and is a fundamentalist religious organisation. ISIS SEEKS TO BUILD A GLOBAL CALIPHATE, grounded in its literalist interpretation of scripture. Rather than aspiring to be a member of the global community of nations, ISIS sought to conquer state's and subdue their citizens under threats of intimidation and death. Had ISIS succeeded in consolidating its territorial base in Iraq and Syria, it would have sought to undermine and destroy the United Nations, not join it. " 

 

So yes Alf, you are misunderstanding Hamas' goals in regards to a world caliphate. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

34 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

As I have already pointed out to you, you are incorrect in your assessment that Hamas' wants a world caliphate.

You are confusing them with ISIS.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/21/hamas-isis-are-not-the-same-00128107

 

" A State vs a Caliphate "

 

" Hamas is a nationalist organisation that seeks the destruction of Isreal and it's replacement with a Palestinian state. It is also a religious militant group, to be sure, styled in the Islamist mode of the Muslim Brotherhood, from which it originated. But it seeks a state that would be like any other in the international community, with a seat at the United Nations, and in regional organisations like the Arab league. ITS OBJECTIVES ARE LOCAL. 

 

 

The Islamic State on the other hand, has transnational goals, and is a fundamentalist religious organisation. ISIS SEEKS TO BUILD A GLOBAL CALIPHATE, grounded in its literalist interpretation of scripture. Rather than aspiring to be a member of the global community of nations, ISIS sought to conquer state's and subdue their citizens under threats of intimidation and death. Had ISIS succeeded in consolidating its territorial base in Iraq and Syria, it would have sought to undermine and destroy the United Nations, not join it. " 

 

So yes Alf, you are misunderstanding Hamas' goals in regards to a world caliphate. 

 

 

 

does any of this really sound reasonable to you? how could a thinking UN hand over a country to a group like Hamas?

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Have you looked at the ethnic makeup / diversity of;

 

Jordan?   94% Arab

Syria?     70% Arab, balance Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Circassians, Mandeans and Turkomen. Virtually all Muslim. The largest are the Kurds at 2.5M of 21 Million.

Gaza?    92 percent of West Bankers and 99 percent of Gazans are Sunni Muslim, the rest Christians.

Egypt?   90% Muslim.

Iraq?    98% Muslim, interesting as 20 years ago it had 2 Million Christians & several hundred thousand Jews. 55% Sunni / 40 Sunni among including 10% non Arab Kurd.

Turkey?   80%; Ethnic Turks are a vast majority ethnic group at over 80 %. While heavily persecuted Kurds at 20% makeup almost all of the balance.

Yemen?   Has a rough 65% / 35 % Sunni / Shia mix with less than 1% of residents non Muslim.

S. Arabia?  80% are Arab, Combinations of Syrian & Afro Arab settled thousands of years, all Sunni Muslim makeup 15%? Whites aprox 100,000. Foreign workers 5%.

Israel?  74% Jewish, 18% Muslim, 2 % Christian & 1.6% Druce.

Lebanon?   1/3 Sunni Arab, 1/3 Shii Arab, 1/3rd Christian.  

 

Seeing almost all ME countries, notably Iraq & Turkey, having disposed of virtually all minorities. Millions upon millions in the last thirty years. Many recently, and its similar in Africa & all the Stans. Where places like Syria, Yemen & Iraq having the biggest diversity of Muslim or Arab cultures, next being Lebanon? These specifically are in almost constant civil war fighting for internal controls. It's not surprising those not allowed undisputed domain in Israel call foul? That all these attacked Israel in 1948! 

 

They claim Palestinians are mistreated, which they are. That said? Were minorities treated better in Syria or Jordan! Those on death row, life sentences do not make the best harbingers, polling regarding social justice laws others. Hamas; 'I like to kill and dispose of everybody?' I don't think anyone else should be allowed!

 

Turkey has been doing it slowly, but still radically like Hitler for hundreds of years. 

 

When does Apartheid become ethnic cleansing; after everyone else is gone in your Middle Eastern neighborhood of choice?

 

 

 

 

 

Are you stating to get Hamas' claimed 

"  Hamas, I like to kill and dispose of everybody, I don't think anybody else should allowed "  

 

Source for that please.

 

Turkey killing Kurds for hundreds of years.

 

I was the first to bring up the Kurds on the old board years ago.

 

Everyone fucks them over including, the US. 

 

" THE US IS BETRAYING THE KURDS FOR THE EIGHTH TIME 

 

Nothing is certain in this world except for death, taxes and America betraying the Kurds "

 

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kurds-syria-turkey-trump-betrayal/

 

And as for what has happened in Iraq in the last 20 years ?

We all know illegally invaded that country, and destabilized the middle east by doing so.

 

 

You want to talk about people killing millions of people over hundreds of years ?

 

British and European settlers in the Americas. 

 

https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-of-indigenous-peoples-guide/

 

 

And guess who has fueled the conflicts in the middle east for the last hundred years ?

 

The US, and Western interventionism.

From supporting dictators when it suited them, Saddam and the Shah, to overthrowing democratically elected governments, Mohammad Mosaddegh, Iran.

The west has a history of supporting of murderous dictatorships in the middle east and throwing them away when they have no further use for them.

 

And guess where shitloads of the weapons in the middle east came/come from ?

 

Americas Arms Sales Addiction: The 50 Year History of US Dominance of The Middle Eastern Arms Trade "

 

https://www.juancole.com/2019/11/americas-addiction-dominance.html

 

I could go on. 

 

Have middle eastern countries ever fucked with us in the last 100 years ?

 

Yes they have...9/11

 

And the US sells billions of dollars of weapons to, and supports the regime from where 15 of the 19 terrorists came from. 

Saudi Arabia. 

[Ilunga]

36 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

does any of this really sound reasonable to you? how could a thinking UN hand over a country to a group like Hamas?

 

Their stated aim is a Palestinian state, not a world Caliphate.

 

That's a fact Jim.

 

 

Source for that article Politico. 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politico/

 

Factual reporting High

High credibility. 

 

And who said that the UN would hand over anything to Hamas ?

 

Are you trying to claim that Hamas' wants a world caliphate ? 

 

 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

Their stated aim is a Palestinian state, not a world Caliphate.

 

That's a fact Jim.

 

and the destruction of Israel. It concerns me how much you seem to be OK with Hamas. 

 

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

Source for that article Politico. 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politico/

 

Factual reporting High

High credibility. 

 

And who said that the UN would hand over anything to Hamas ?

 

Are you trying to claim that Hamas' wants a world caliphate ? 

 

 

 

given the chance, I'm sure it would.

 

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

and the destruction of Israel. It concerns me how much you seem to be OK with Hamas. 

 

 

given the chance, I'm sure it would.

 

 

I am getting really fuckin tired of insinuations like , I am OK with Hamas.

 

I have condemned all violence of any sort on the old board and this one, long before this thread was started.

 

I have also condemned Hamas'.

 

Alf made a false claim, a very proactive claim that Hamas' wants to kill everyone who doesn't think like them, previous post, and they want a world Caliphate.

 

I have provided evidence/facts, that those claims are false. 

 

I like facts Jim, not Bullshit.

 

Provide some evidence/facts to back up your statement that 

 

" Given the chance, I am sure it would "

 

What concerns me is that some people in this thread refuse to acknowledge facts, when they are presented to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am getting really fuckin tired of insinuations like , I am OK with Hamas.

 

I have condemned all violence of any sort on the old board and this one, long before this thread was started.

 

I have also condemned Hamas'.

 

Alf made a false claim, a very proactive claim that Hamas' wants to kill everyone who doesn't think like them, previous post, and they want a world Caliphate.

 

I have provided evidence/facts, that those claims are false. 

 

I like facts Jim, not Bullshit.

 

Provide some evidence/facts to back up your statement that 

 

" Given the chance, I am sure it would "

 

What concerns me is that some people in this thread refuse to acknowledge facts, when they are presented to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes that's how your posts sound to me, don't know what else to say. 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Sometimes that's how your posts sound to me, don't know what else to say. 

 

Don't understand how you can confuse a person who has consistently condemned all violence.

Is the only person in the thread who posts articles about Palestinians and Isrealis forgiving each other, working with each other for a peaceful solution. 

 

For a person who would support a terrorist organisation.  

A terrorist organisation he has condemned countless times.  

 

 

As I have stated, I love factual information. 

 

I get tired of the same Bullshit.

 

I present factual information and people deny it. 

 

Taxi, claiming Isreal didn't help form and fund Hamas'.

 

Roman and his BS Greenhouse myth.

 

Alf and his Hamas wants a world caliphate and wants to kill everyone. 

 

Hamas throwing gay people of buildings. 

 

I have debunked these claims several times.

 

Hamas is fucked however the truth matters. 

[Bob Long]

24 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Don't understand how you can confuse a person who has consistently condemned all violence.

Is the only person in the thread who posts articles about Palestinians and Isrealis forgiving each other, working with each other for a peaceful solution. 

 

For a person who would support a terrorist organisation.  

A terrorist organisation he has condemned countless times.  

 

 

As I have stated, I love factual information. 

 

I get tired of the same Bullshit.

 

I present factual information and people deny it. 

 

Taxi, claiming Isreal didn't help form and fund Hamas'.

 

Roman and his BS Greenhouse myth.

 

Alf and his Hamas wants a world caliphate and wants to kill everyone. 

 

Hamas throwing gay people of buildings. 

 

I have debunked these claims several times.

 

Hamas is fucked however the truth matters. 

 

Dunno, it could certainly be me mistaking your posts.

[Boudrias]

18 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Dunno, it could certainly be me mistaking your posts.

A master excuse maker. Suggesting the IDF should conduct military operations with civilian populations as primary tactical concern is BS. It sounds harsh but it is a cold reality that this is a war. Clearly Hamas's propaganda strategy has been to use their own people as a shield to accomplish their own tactical and strategic objectives. If the IDF is considered brutal then I am curious that Hamas is not at the same level. Limiting Israel's military options is indirectly aiding Hamas and preventing their eradication. The politics surrounding the Palestinian condition is pathetic. Most are moral and intellectual cowards.  

[Alflives]

32 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

A master excuse maker. Suggesting the IDF should conduct military operations with civilian populations as primary tactical concern is BS. It sounds harsh but it is a cold reality that this is a war. Clearly Hamas's propaganda strategy has been to use their own people as a shield to accomplish their own tactical and strategic objectives. If the IDF is considered brutal then I am curious that Hamas is not at the same level. Limiting Israel's military options is indirectly aiding Hamas and preventing their eradication. The politics surrounding the Palestinian condition is pathetic. Most are moral and intellectual cowards.  

Yup.
https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attachments/jps-articles/2538093.pdf

Evil. 

[RomanPer]

34 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

A master excuse maker. Suggesting the IDF should conduct military operations with civilian populations as primary tactical concern is BS. It sounds harsh but it is a cold reality that this is a war. Clearly Hamas's propaganda strategy has been to use their own people as a shield to accomplish their own tactical and strategic objectives. If the IDF is considered brutal then I am curious that Hamas is not at the same level. Limiting Israel's military options is indirectly aiding Hamas and preventing their eradication. The politics surrounding the Palestinian condition is pathetic. Most are moral and intellectual cowards.  

 

Speaking of civilian population casualties - UN recently halved their estimate of killed women and children and significantly increased the number of killed between military-age men. Just when they started not believing Hamas health ministry numbers - https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

Are you stating to get Hamas' claimed 

"  Hamas, I like to kill and dispose of everybody, I don't think anybody else should allowed "  

 

Source for that please.

 

I did not 'quote,' so no source is necessary. I used italics to point out I was paraphrasing. Just drawing conclusions on certain realities public seem ignorant to?

 

6 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Jordan?   94% Arab

Syria?     70% Arab, balance Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Circassians, Mandeans and Turkomen. Virtually all Muslim. The largest are the Kurds at 2.5M of 21 Million.

Gaza?    92 percent of West Bankers and 99 percent of Gazans are Sunni Muslim, the rest Christians.

Egypt?   90% Muslim.

Iraq?    98% Muslim, interesting as 20 years ago it had 2 Million Christians & several hundred thousand Jews. 55% Sunni / 40 Sunni among including 10% non Arab Kurd.

Turkey?   80%; Ethnic Turks are a vast majority ethnic group at over 80 %. While heavily persecuted Kurds at 20% makeup almost all of the balance.

Yemen?   Has a rough 65% / 35 % Sunni / Shia mix with less than 1% of residents non Muslim.

S. Arabia?  80% are Arab, Combinations of Syrian & Afro Arab settled thousands of years, all Sunni Muslim makeup 15%? Whites aprox 100,000. Foreign workers 5%.

Israel?  74% Jewish, 18% Muslim, 2 % Christian & 1.6% Druce.

Lebanon?   1/3 Sunni Arab, 1/3 Shii Arab, 1/3rd Christian.

 

Draw your own conclusions about these countries having no minorities.  

 

Dissidents can be given a death penalty in most Arab countries for challenging regimes. Even overseas. Ask, great movie btw, Jamal Khashoggi;

 

https://youtu.be/2I6hjwblA_g

 

Of course opposition leaders get dropped out of apartment buildings in Gaza. At least in Russia they fall out themselves according to the press. Its much harder in Middle Eastern streets and slums. Not hidden at all. Such intimidation is public on purpose to enforce control! People are flogged. Even stoned to death for not following religious laws. Or local leaders? Sinwar is jailed, funny enough by a 'foreign' country, for choking to death by his own hands anyone accused of 'colluding' with Jews.

 

Among other things of course.

 

Does answering as you do, imply these must be liberal countries? The court lawyer raises his hand; ''objection your honour!''

 

Canuck Surfer; ''question withdrawn.'' 

[Bob Long]

50 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

A master excuse maker. Suggesting the IDF should conduct military operations with civilian populations as primary tactical concern is BS. It sounds harsh but it is a cold reality that this is a war. Clearly Hamas's propaganda strategy has been to use their own people as a shield to accomplish their own tactical and strategic objectives. If the IDF is considered brutal then I am curious that Hamas is not at the same level. Limiting Israel's military options is indirectly aiding Hamas and preventing their eradication. The politics surrounding the Palestinian condition is pathetic. Most are moral and intellectual cowards.  

 

One aspect that saddens me is the dismissal of why Israel exists in the first place.

[RomanPer]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

One aspect that saddens me is the dismissal of why Israel exists in the first place.

 

One of the main reasons he is now on my ignore list.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[HarbularyBattery]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Have you looked at the ethnic makeup / diversity of;

 

Jordan?   94% Arab

Syria?     70% Arab, balance Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Circassians, Mandeans and Turkomen. Virtually all Muslim. The largest are the Kurds at 2.5M of 21 Million.

Gaza?    92 percent of West Bankers and 99 percent of Gazans are Sunni Muslim, the rest Christians.

Egypt?   90% Muslim.

Iraq?    98% Muslim, interesting as 20 years ago it had 2 Million Christians & several hundred thousand Jews. 55% Sunni / 40 Sunni among including 10% non Arab Kurd.

Turkey?   80%; Ethnic Turks are a vast majority ethnic group at over 80 %. While heavily persecuted Kurds at 20% makeup almost all of the balance.

Yemen?   Has a rough 65% / 35 % Sunni / Shia mix with less than 1% of residents non Muslim.

S. Arabia?  80% are Arab, Combinations of Syrian & Afro Arab settled thousands of years, all Sunni Muslim makeup 15%? Whites aprox 100,000. Foreign workers 5%.

Israel?  74% Jewish, 18% Muslim, 2 % Christian & 1.6% Druce.

Lebanon?   1/3 Sunni Arab, 1/3 Shii Arab, 1/3rd Christian.  

 

Seeing almost all ME countries, notably Iraq & Turkey, having disposed of virtually all minorities. Millions upon millions in the last thirty years. Many recently, and its similar in Africa & all the Stans. Where places like Syria, Yemen & Iraq having the biggest diversity of Muslim or Arab cultures, next being Lebanon? These specifically are in almost constant civil war fighting for internal controls. It's not surprising those not allowed undisputed domain in Israel call foul? That all these attacked Israel in 1948! 

 

They claim Palestinians are mistreated, which they are. That said? Were minorities treated better in Syria or Jordan! Those on death row, life sentences do not make the best harbingers, polling regarding social justice laws others. Hamas; 'I like to kill and dispose of everybody?' I don't think anyone else should be allowed!

 

Turkey has been doing it slowly, but still radically like Hitler for hundreds of years. 

 

When does Apartheid become ethnic cleansing; after everyone else is gone in your Middle Eastern neighborhood of choice?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im not out here saying that these governments are good. Assad is evil, Saddam was evil, the Ayatollahs in Iran are evil, and you know what so is the entire saudi royal family. And youve listed out a ton of historical injustices that actually perfectly explain and in some cases justify the sometimes violent responses of the persecuted. The people here agreeing with you and liking this post dont have any clue that the injustices you mention has created rebellions, terrorist organizations, and massive civilian casualties, also perpetrated by the victims. The PKK just as one example. 

 

Whats frustrating is your response to me is just pure whataboutism. Im here trying to explain why organizations like Hamas even exist in the first place, and why Palestinians FEEL angry. There are posters in here who try to explain it away as "they hate the jews" when its not that at all. I provided a clear cut and indisputable case of Apartheid (in the west bank) and yours and other posters response is to deflect it and say "what about all these OTHER bad people in the middle east who are so much worse than israel" because for some reason youre incapable of acknowledging that Palestinians have been persecuted to the point of feeling righteous anger at oppression. Either that, or you think im just criticizing israel for the sake of criticizing israel. Me criticizing Israel's treatment of Palestinians in NO way takes away from the same righteous anger of other persecuted groups across the middle east and the world. The Ukrainians have EVERY right to fight back against Russia. The Kurds have EVERY right to fight for their national identity and for their own state. And the Israelis? Have EVERY right to fight against Hamas. And the Palestinians have EVERY right to fight for their right to return home AND against a system of apartheid in the west bank, among other things. Me talking about one of these things in a post doesn't take away from all of the others.

 

The entire point I'm trying to make that none of you seem to get is that the anger Palestinians feel is not random or "jew hatred", it comes from actions that Israel has taken that are actually not hard to fix- LIKE a system of apartheid in the west bank. But if your response is to ignore that and just say "well other people are worse", im done posting in this thread because clearly nobody has any interst in listening to anything outside of their bias. 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, HarbularyBattery said:

The entire point I'm trying to make that none of you seem to get is that the anger Palestinians feel is not random or "jew hatred", it comes from actions that Israel has taken that are actually not hard to fix- LIKE a system of apartheid in the west bank. But if your response is to ignore that and just say "well other people are worse", im done posting in this thread because clearly nobody has any interst in listening to anything outside of their bias. 

 

Certainly Palestinians have a right to be angry.

 

What I am suggesting is that the route to peace is not served by empowering Hamas in their communities. The route to peace has to include foreign intervention, ideally / obviously not Israel. Foreign intervention because the nature of many regime's in the ME is they rule by militant violent control. The primary purpose of pointing to such widespread abuse is to note that ignoring it re-occurring with Hamas will not solve problems either.     

[HarbularyBattery]

9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Certainly Palestinians have a right to be angry.

 

What I am suggesting is that the route to peace is not served by empowering Hamas in their communities. The route to peace has to include foreign intervention, ideally / obviously not Israel. Foreign intervention because the nature of many regime's in the ME is they rule by militant violent control. The primary purpose of pointing to such widespread abuse is to note that ignoring it re-occurring with Hamas will not solve problems either.     

i dont think theres a single person ive seen here who thinks that hamas is part of the solution

 

that said, sometimes when theres belief that you have a partner operating in good faith on the other side, its possible to surprise people and pivot from violence to peace just like the PLO and the IRA did. that requires everyone to cool the fk down and for people on both sides to believe that the other actually wants peace.

 

no israeli is going to believe hamas wants to make peace, and no palestinian is going to believe that netanyahu wants peace. both parties have made it explicitely clear that they will not tolerate the existence of the other. hamas wont tolerate an israeli state, and netanyahu (and the entire likud party) wont tolerate a palestinian state anywhere from the red sea to the jordan river (in the likud charter). 

 

so lets walk through this logically, what concessions are both attainable and reasonable that the palestinians can make, and what can israel do.

 

we can take inventory of what chips both sides even have left

 

the militant Palestinians can renounce violence (doable, theyve done it before when the PLO laid down its weapons)

Israel can withdraw from the west bank and end this attack on the palestinians right to have their own state. with the caveat that the state lines should actually be a feasible state. two tiny non-contiguous landmasses isnt going to work

 

thats where we were at in the 1990s. how do we do better than that?

Edited May 11 by HarbularyBattery

[Alflives]

Article 17: to paraphrase: Women are the factory of men. Women are to stay home and care for the children. The movie industry and media try to influence women to move away from the teachings of Allah.