Hamas attacking Israel

[Alflives]

Another tidbit from the Hamas charter. Again paraphrased: when Islam rules it will destroy those organizations that don’t follow. 
 

Hamas is an evil entity. They are a terrorist group. 

[HarbularyBattery]

Just now, Alflives said:

Another tidbit from the Hamas charter. Again paraphrased: when Islam rules it will destroy those organizations that don’t follow. 
 

Hamas is an evil entity. They are a terrorist group. 

what on earth point are you trying to make 

 

hamas is obviously a terrorist organization, theyre not the 1st in the region or the world

 

the last time there was a palestinian terrorist organization (the PLO), they were defeated by diplomacy not carpetbombing 30,000 civilians

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

what on earth point are you trying to make 

 

hamas is obviously a terrorist organization, theyre not the 1st in the region or the world

 

the last time there was a palestinian terrorist organization (the PLO), they were defeated by diplomacy not carpetbombing 30,000 civilians

The point is Hamas published their beliefs. And those beliefs are sick. Sure they will accept others providing it’s under their rule. Just another piece from their charter that confirms their intentions. These Hamas people believe the countries of the world have been infiltrated by Jews and is controlled by them. It’s tinfoil hat, batsh*t crazy, Hitleresque dogma. 
Read it for yourself. 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Boudrias said:

A master excuse maker. Suggesting the IDF should conduct military operations with civilian populations as primary tactical concern is BS. It sounds harsh but it is a cold reality that this is a war. Clearly Hamas's propaganda strategy has been to use their own people as a shield to accomplish their own tactical and strategic objectives. If the IDF is considered brutal then I am curious that Hamas is not at the same level. Limiting Israel's military options is indirectly aiding Hamas and preventing their eradication. The politics surrounding the Palestinian condition is pathetic. Most are moral and intellectual cowards.  

 

I " suggest " that all wars should be fought where the civilians are the primary tactical concern. 

Not just this particular conflict. 

This is what International Humanitarian Law " suggests ".

 

If you want to compare IDF brutality to Hamas brutality, then I would say Hamas' actions on October 7 were far more brutal than any single act by the IDF. 

Slaughtering women, children, the elderly and men.

Raping women.

Mutilation of corpses. 

These are not only brutal acts, they are horrific. 

 

So advocating that civilians, especially women and children should be protected in any circumstances, in this case, a conflict, makes one a moral or intellectual coward ? 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Speaking of civilian population casualties - UN recently halved their estimate of killed women and children and significantly increased the number of killed between military-age men. Just when they started not believing Hamas health ministry numbers - https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772

 

" UN has seemingly halved number of Gazan women, children killed "

 

Seemingly ?

 

Me, I believe in science, not propaganda, from either side 

 

" The Science is Clear. Over 30,000 people have died in Gaza.

 

https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

One aspect that saddens me is the dismissal of why Israel exists in the first place.

 

Who is dismissing why Israel exists in the first place ?

 

Isreal exists because Isreali/Jews want a nation/state of their own, in a place they do have a historical connection to.

 

This is their right. 

 

What saddens me is people who deny the Palestinians the same right that I, and they  extend to the Israelis.

 

The right to have a state of their own.

[Elias Pettersson]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

As I have already pointed out to you, you are incorrect in your assessment that Hamas' wants a world caliphate.

You are confusing them with ISIS.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/21/hamas-isis-are-not-the-same-00128107

 

" A State vs a Caliphate "

 

" Hamas is a nationalist organisation that seeks the destruction of Isreal and it's replacement with a Palestinian state. It is also a religious militant group, to be sure, styled in the Islamist mode of the Muslim Brotherhood, from which it originated. But it seeks a state that would be like any other in the international community, with a seat at the United Nations, and in regional organisations like the Arab league. ITS OBJECTIVES ARE LOCAL. 

 

 

The Islamic State on the other hand, has transnational goals, and is a fundamentalist religious organisation. ISIS SEEKS TO BUILD A GLOBAL CALIPHATE, grounded in its literalist interpretation of scripture. Rather than aspiring to be a member of the global community of nations, ISIS sought to conquer state's and subdue their citizens under threats of intimidation and death. Had ISIS succeeded in consolidating its territorial base in Iraq and Syria, it would have sought to undermine and destroy the United Nations, not join it. " 

 

So yes Alf, you are misunderstanding Hamas' goals in regards to a world caliphate. 

 

 

I’m not sure who wrote that article Dave, but the son of the founder of Hamas completely disagrees with it.  He says right on national tv that the end goal of Hamas is a “Global Islamic State”…

 

 

He should know more than those people who wrote that Politico article. 

This information is also confirmed by the actual current leaders of Hamas:

Hamas Leaders: Our Goal Is Establishment Of Global Islamic Caliphate, Not Just Liberation Of Palestine

 

www.memri.org

 

Hamas Official Fathi Hammad: "We Shall Liberate Our Al-Aqsa Mosque, And Our Cities And Villages, As A Prelude To The Establishment Of The Future Islamic Caliphate"

 

Senior Hamas Official Mahmoud Al-Zahar: The Army Of Jerusalem Will Not Liberate Only Palestine; The Whole World Will Come Under An Islamic System "With No Zionism, No Treacherous Christianity"

 

Hamas Leader Khaled Mash'al: The Nation of Islam Will Sit at the Throne of the World

 

Hamas MP and Cleric Yunis Al-Astal in a Friday Sermon: We Will Conquer Rome, and from There Continue to Conquer the Two Americas and Eastern Europe

 

Columnist In UAE Daily: Hamas, A Muslim Brotherhood Faction, Seeks To Topple Arab Countries And Revive The Caliphate

 

In an address he gave at the Al-Murabit Mosque in Damascus, which was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 3, 2006, Hamas leader Khaled Mash'al stated that the Islamic nation will regain the leadership of the world, and then the West will be full of remorse when it is too late.

Edited May 12 by Elias Pettersson

[Bob Long]

18 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Who is dismissing why Israel exists in the first place ?

 

"River to sea" chants on campus, eg.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Isreal exists because Isreali/Jews want a nation/state of their own, in a place they do have a historical connection to.

 

This is their right. 

 

What saddens me is people who deny the Palestinians the same right that I, and they  extend to the Israelis.

 

The right to have a state of their own.

 

They absolutely do, but they need to ditch their leaders.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Who is dismissing why Israel exists in the first place ?

 

Isreal exists because Isreali/Jews want a nation/state of their own, in a place they do have a historical connection to.

 

This is their right. 

 

What saddens me is people who deny the Palestinians the same right that I, and they  extend to the Israelis.

 

The right to have a state of their own.

Nobody is denying the right for the Palestinians to have their own state Dave.  As a matter of fact, the Israelis themselves offered the Palestinians their own state on several occasions. 
 

Each time they declined. We all know the history so I won’t bother to repeat it. 
 

You said awhile back that you were disappointed in me. Well I kinda feel the same way about you now as well. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish in this thread. It seems you are on a mission to fight with everyone that is in here for some unknown reason. 
 

I think we all understand where you are coming from and you’ve made your positions clear several times. Nobody wants kids to die. If you feel this isn’t true then you are wrong. We all want peace. Unfortunately, peace cannot happen until Hamas is destroyed. We all know this. I believe even you do. I can’t fathom to think that you would believe this war could end peacefully with Hamas still in power. That makes no sense. If Hamas is allowed to stay in power they will simply go after Israel again and again. It will never stop. 
 

I know you like to bring up the history of the US and all of the wars they have started. I agree with you. The US Military Industrial Complex has been a part of almost every war. They invaded a sovereign country on a lie that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. We all know this. The US does not have clean hands. Most countries don’t. 
 

But talking about whataboutisms and what the US did 20 years ago isn’t really going to solve today’s problem. Nobody in this thread is a fan of Bibi. We all want him gone. He was elected by the people so next election he certainly will be gone. So the Israelis can deal with him. But Hamas also has to go away. Is what is happening now the perfect way to do this?  No. Are innocent women and children dying as a result of today’s actions?  Yes. 
 

The question is what do we do about it now?  How do we fix the problem?
 

In any event, this was my rant for the day. And I didn’t mean to come after you my brother. I just wanted to point out some things that were on my mind. At the end of the day we are all family. All human beings. We all deserve the same respect for each other. 
 

Respectfully, Petey…

Edited May 12 by Elias Pettersson

[Warhippy]

46 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I’m not sure who wrote that article Dave, but the son of the founder of Hamas completely disagrees with it.  He says right on national tv that the end goal of Hamas is a “Global Islamic State”…

 

 

He should know more than those people who wrote that Politico article. 

This information is also confirmed by the actual current leaders of Hamas:

Hamas Leaders: Our Goal Is Establishment Of Global Islamic Caliphate, Not Just Liberation Of Palestine

 

www.memri.org

 

Hamas Official Fathi Hammad: "We Shall Liberate Our Al-Aqsa Mosque, And Our Cities And Villages, As A Prelude To The Establishment Of The Future Islamic Caliphate"

 

Senior Hamas Official Mahmoud Al-Zahar: The Army Of Jerusalem Will Not Liberate Only Palestine; The Whole World Will Come Under An Islamic System "With No Zionism, No Treacherous Christianity"

 

Hamas Leader Khaled Mash'al: The Nation of Islam Will Sit at the Throne of the World

 

Hamas MP and Cleric Yunis Al-Astal in a Friday Sermon: We Will Conquer Rome, and from There Continue to Conquer the Two Americas and Eastern Europe

 

Columnist In UAE Daily: Hamas, A Muslim Brotherhood Faction, Seeks To Topple Arab Countries And Revive The Caliphate

 

In an address he gave at the Al-Murabit Mosque in Damascus, which was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 3, 2006, Hamas leader Khaled Mash'al stated that the Islamic nation will regain the leadership of the world, and then the West will be full of remorse when it is too late.

Explain to me the difference between a desire to build a global Islamic state and the 2018 nation state law of Israel 

[Bob Long]

19 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Explain to me the difference between a desire to build a global Islamic state and the 2018 nation state law of Israel 

 

Would scale be the first difference? Then historical harm?

[Ilunga]

51 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I’m not sure who wrote that article Dave, but the son of the founder of Hamas completely disagrees with it.  He says right on national tv that the end goal of Hamas is a “Global Islamic State”…

 

 

He should know more than those people who wrote that Politico article. 

This information is also confirmed by the actual current leaders of Hamas:

Hamas Leaders: Our Goal Is Establishment Of Global Islamic Caliphate, Not Just Liberation Of Palestine

 

www.memri.org

 

Hamas Official Fathi Hammad: "We Shall Liberate Our Al-Aqsa Mosque, And Our Cities And Villages, As A Prelude To The Establishment Of The Future Islamic Caliphate"

 

Senior Hamas Official Mahmoud Al-Zahar: The Army Of Jerusalem Will Not Liberate Only Palestine; The Whole World Will Come Under An Islamic System "With No Zionism, No Treacherous Christianity"

 

Hamas Leader Khaled Mash'al: The Nation of Islam Will Sit at the Throne of the World

 

Hamas MP and Cleric Yunis Al-Astal in a Friday Sermon: We Will Conquer Rome, and from There Continue to Conquer the Two Americas and Eastern Europe

 

Columnist In UAE Daily: Hamas, A Muslim Brotherhood Faction, Seeks To Topple Arab Countries And Revive The Caliphate

 

In an address he gave at the Al-Murabit Mosque in Damascus, which was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 3, 2006, Hamas leader Khaled Mash'al stated that the Islamic nation will regain the leadership of the world, and then the West will be full of remorse when it is too late.

 

The Authors are Colin P. Clarke, who is a director of research at the Soufan Group, an intelligence and consulting firm in New York City, and author of, After The Caliphate: The Islamic State And The Future Terrorist Diaspora. 

 

Michael Kenney, who is the director of the Michael B. Ridgeway center and professor of international affairs at the University of Pittsburgh. He conducts research on terrorism, political violence and high risk activism. 

 

Media Bias assessment for my source, Politico 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politico/

 

Factual reporting High 

 

Overall we rate Politico Left-Centre biased based on story selections and editorial positions that slightly favour the left. We also rate them high for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. 

 

MBFC Credibility Rating

High Credibility 

 

Now your source MEMRI ( Middle East Media Research Institute )

 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/

 

Factual reporting

Mixed 

 

Questionable Source 

 

A Questionable source exhibits one or more of the following, extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and or is fake news. 

 

Overall we rate MEMRI as a questionable source based on the promotion of Isreali propaganda, poor sourcing and few failed fact checks. 

 

MBFC Credibility Rating

Low Credibility 

 

Now even if we want to believe that BS rhetoric by a couple of nut jobs clerics who also talked about when " Islam ruled the world "

 

If we are going to believe that those few clerics speak for all Hamas', do we believe that nutjobs like Smotrich and Ben Gvir speak for all the Knesset ? 

 

As I have stated many many times, there are nutjobs on both sides.

They are religious nutjobs. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

The Authors are Colin P. Clarke, who is a director of research at the Soufan Group, an intelligence and consulting firm in New York City, and author of, After The Caliphate: The Islamic State And The Future Terrorist Diaspora. 

 

Michael Kenney, who is the director of the Michael B. Ridgeway center and professor of international affairs at the University of Pittsburgh. He conducts research on terrorism, political violence and high risk activism. 

 

Media Bias assessment for my source, Politico 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politico/

 

Factual reporting High 

 

Overall we rate Politico Left-Centre biased based on story selections and editorial positions that slightly favour the left. We also rate them high for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. 

 

MBFC Credibility Rating

High Credibility 

 

Now your source MEMRI ( Middle East Media Research Institute )

 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/

 

Factual reporting

Mixed 

 

Questionable Source 

 

A Questionable source exhibits one or more of the following, extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and or is fake news. 

 

Overall we rate MEMRI as a questionable source based on the promotion of Isreali propaganda, poor sourcing and few failed fact checks. 

 

MBFC Credibility Rating

Low Credibility 

 

Now even if we want to believe that BS rhetoric by a couple of nut jobs clerics who also talked about when " Islam ruled the world "

 

If we are going to believe that those few clerics speak for all Hamas', do we believe that nutjobs like Smotrich and Ben Gvir speak for all the Knesset ? 

 

As I have stated many many times, there are nutjobs on both sides.

They are religious nutjobs. 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. What about the son of the founder of Hamas?  Is he a credible source?  He lived through it all, did he not? 

[Elias Pettersson]

40 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Explain to me the difference between a desire to build a global Islamic state and the 2018 nation state law of Israel 

Not sure. One is a law and one isn’t?  Is this a whataboutism? 

[Ilunga]

34 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Nobody is denying the right for the Palestinians to have their own state Dave.  As a matter of fact, the Israelis themselves offered the Palestinians their own state on several occasions. 
 

Each time they declined. We all know the history so I won’t bother to repeat it. 
 

You said awhile back that you were disappointed in me. Well I kinda feel the same way about you now as well. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish in this thread. It seems you are on a mission to fight with everyone that is in here for some unknown reason. 
 

I think we all understand where you are coming from and you’ve made your positions clear several times. Nobody wants kids to die. If you feel this isn’t true then you are wrong. We all want peace. Unfortunately, peace cannot happen until Hamas is destroyed. We all know this. I believe even you do. I can’t fathom to think that you would believe this war could end peacefully with Hamas still in power. That makes no sense. If Hamas is allowed to stay in power they will simply go after Israel again and again. It will never stop. 
 

I know you like to bring up the history of the US and all of the wars they have started. I agree with you. The US Military Industrial Complex has been a part of almost every war. They invaded a sovereign country on a lie that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. We all know this. The US does not have clean hands. Most countries don’t. 
 

But talking about whataboutisms and what the US did 20 years ago isn’t really going to solve today’s problem. Nobody in this thread is a fan of Bibi. We all want him gone. He was elected by the people so next election he certainly will be gone. So the Israelis can deal with him. But Hamas also has to go away. Is what is happening now the perfect way to do this?  No. Are innocent women and children dying as a result of today’s actions?  Yes. 
 

The question is what do we do about it now?  How do we fix the problem. 
 

In any event, this was my rant for the day. And I didn’t mean to come after you my brother. I just wanted to point out some things that were on my mind. At the end of the day we are all family. All human beings. We all desecrate the same respect for each other. 
 

Respectfully, Petey…

 

I have asked Roman several times to state what his beliefs are in regards to a Palestinian state, he has refused to answer. He has also used a mythical religious text as the basis for his claim that Isreal " owns " Jerusalem. 

 

So on the basis of this, one can only presume that Roman does deny the right of the Palestinians to have a state of their own. 

 

So yes there is someone in this thread that denies the Palestinians a state of their own. 

 

As I stated I returned to this thread after weeks away due to the human suffering that is happening in Gaza. 

And guess what, the majority of the world agrees with me.

More and more countries are coming out and criticising Isreal for the actions in Gaza, including their best friend the US, who took the unprecedented step of freezing arms shipments to Israel.

 

If I seem to be fighting with everyone in this thread as you state, what I am actually doing is advocating for the rights of innocent civilians, especially the women and children.

These people are starving. 

Their schools have been destroyed. 

 

This is why the majority of the world has had enough.

And this was reflected in the UN vote a few days ago in regards to to Palestinian membership of the UN.

143 nations voted in favour of this.

I am glad the society I live in actually had the courage to vote. 

 

Me " fighting " with everyone seems to evidence of the fact that people don't believe what I do.

That human life is sacred. 

That women and children should be protected at all costs.

There is never an excuse for killing them.

And for causing for over a million more to face starvation. 

 

I post articles about forgiveness and peace.

 

If Jesus was a real person and he was alive now, what do you think he would " say " in regards to this.

 

We'rent we taught he preached forgiveness and peace brother ?

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Fair enough. What about the son of the founder of Hamas?  Is he a credible source?  He lived through it all, did he not? 

 

In this article about his book he states 

 

https://www.npr.org/2010/03/31/125211864/from-son-of-hamas-to-agent-of-shin-bet

 

" I was tortured by the Isrealis in one of the most scary interrogation facilities you can imagine, and I was held there for three months. "

 

" It opened big questions in my mind, questioning if Isreal is really our enemies. I believe at the time and I still believe that occupation is a problem. Every nation has the right to establish and decide their destiny. But we had enemies more and dangerous than Israel and those enemies lived within us. "

 

Now I totally agree with him that Hamas is an enemy of the Palestinian people.

I also have no doubt that they have murdered/killed innocent Palestinians. 

They have no regard at all for the Palestinian people and they truly are a terrorist organisation. 

 

 

I believe sources/ information I can trust.

The online Encyclopaedia Britianica is one of the most trustworthy sources there is. 

 

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hamas

 

"Hamas, militant nationalist and islamist movement in the west bank and Gaza strip that is dedicated to the establishment of independent Islamic State in historical " Palestine. 

 

Now I a certain you are aware the difference between a nationalism movement, and a global/international movement.  

 

And why I bring up US and Western interventionism in the middle east is to illustrate that it is us that have gone over there and fucked with them.

As opposed to Arab countries, no matter what a few nutjob state, them fucking with us.

[Optimist Prime]

11 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Speaking of civilian population casualties - UN recently halved their estimate of killed women and children and significantly increased the number of killed between military-age men. Just when they started not believing Hamas health ministry numbers - https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772

Right on. The numbers from Hamas since early October have been skewed towards inciting outrage against jews globally. Case in point, this whole thread.

 

And before any apologists try and correct me by saying Israel, no. Jews. My nephew Cohen was beat up at school on Vancouver Island in Canada, he is not an Israeli.

[Canuck Surfer]

13 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

i dont think theres a single person ive seen here who thinks that hamas is part of the solution

 

that said, sometimes when theres belief that you have a partner operating in good faith on the other side, its possible to surprise people and pivot from violence to peace just like the PLO and the IRA did. that requires everyone to cool the fk down and for people on both sides to believe that the other actually wants peace.

 

no israeli is going to believe hamas wants to make peace, and no palestinian is going to believe that netanyahu wants peace. both parties have made it explicitely clear that they will not tolerate the existence of the other. hamas wont tolerate an israeli state, and netanyahu (and the entire likud party) wont tolerate a palestinian state anywhere from the red sea to the jordan river (in the likud charter). 

 

so lets walk through this logically, what concessions are both attainable and reasonable that the palestinians can make, and what can israel do.

 

we can take inventory of what chips both sides even have left

 

the militant Palestinians can renounce violence (doable, theyve done it before when the PLO laid down its weapons)

Israel can withdraw from the west bank and end this attack on the palestinians right to have their own state. with the caveat that the state lines should actually be a feasible state. two tiny non-contiguous landmasses isnt going to work

 

thats where we were at in the 1990s. how do we do better than that?

 

Before your arrival; @Ilunga can verify.  I called for Israel to be the leader not aggressor. Still should be!  Renounce settlements and prosecute, not support settlement abuse. Israel also moved out of Gaza, set no conditions to do so.  They also can be proactive. It is true they were bombed just after they did so as a reward.  A smaller war ensued, and Hamas then, 1/2 way inbetween & now lost.  While I understand anger?  I do not understand this approach. It is physically stupid for a human to attack a lion, or a grizzly bear.  Constantly poke the bear as Hamas has/. 

 

The PLO laid down their weapons. Yet Hamas immediately rushed in to take over all the illegal trade routes and associations that could control the streets. No peace was offered Israel. This is why there are security zones, albeit Jewish extremists, repeating myself, should not be using this as an excuse to steal further land. An international / Arab / IDF security zone would also protect residents from the IDF and extremists.  Isreal has to agree to this.  After 80 years its in their interests.

 

Yet if Hamas laid down their weapons now. Is there another ISIS, Hezbollah, Assad who will rush in?  There has been over the last 80 years. Many times. Its why Hamas also has to fully lay down their weapons and relinquish control.  A joint peacekeeping international force to hold peace with IDF, also having an Arab component is absolutely mandatory.

 

I UNDERSTAND people in Palestine, other Arab's will hate an IDF or external involvement. They have no choice either. Arab countries like Qatar, the Kingdoms, Egypt should volunteer soldiers to stand with UN & IDF to patrol Gaza & West Bank withdrawals. They also do not want the 'refugee's.' So agreeing to help police a weapon free Gaza also ensures dissidents don't spread to their countries, a long term concern. Qatar should exile Haniyeh, not offer him quarter and support. The bear is bigger than Hamas, has also destroyed much bigger forces.  Forget philosophy, the bear will only hibernate if dogs are not buzzing his cave.

[Ilunga]

33 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Before your arrival; @Ilunga can verify.  I called for Israel to be the leader not aggressor. Still should be!  Renounce settlements and prosecute, not support settlement abuse. Israel also moved out of Gaza, set no conditions to do so.  They also can be proactive. It is true they were bombed just after they did so as a reward.  A smaller war ensued, and Hamas then, 1/2 way inbetween & now lost.  While I understand anger?  I do not understand this approach. It is physically stupid for a human to attack a lion, or a grizzly bear.  Constantly poke the bear as Hamas has/. 

 

The PLO laid down their weapons. Yet Hamas immediately rushed in to take over all the illegal trade routes and associations that could control the streets. No peace was offered Israel. This is why there are security zones, albeit Jewish extremists, repeating myself, should not be using this as an excuse to steal further land. An international / Arab / IDF security zone would also protect residents from the IDF and extremists.  Isreal has to agree to this.  After 80 years its in their interests.

 

Yet if Hamas laid down their weapons now. Is there another ISIS, Hezbollah, Assad who will rush in?  There has been over the last 80 years. Many times. Its why Hamas also has to fully lay down their weapons and relinquish control.  A joint peacekeeping international force to hold peace with IDF, also having an Arab component is absolutely mandatory.

 

I UNDERSTAND people in Palestine, other Arab's will hate an IDF or external involvement. They have no choice either. Arab countries like Qatar, the Kingdoms, Egypt should volunteer soldiers to stand with UN & IDF to patrol Gaza & West Bank withdrawals. They also do not want the 'refugee's.' So agreeing to help police a weapon free Gaza also ensures dissidents don't spread to their countries, a long term concern. Qatar should exile Haniyeh, not offer him quarter and support. The bear is bigger than Hamas, has also destroyed much bigger forces.  Forget philosophy, the bear will only hibernate if dogs are not buzzing his cave.

 

As I have stated before brother.

You are one of, if not the most " balanced " poster in this thread.

[Canuck Surfer]

There is also no sense in a peace agreement for Israel If Hamas is not relinquishing power.  Not my opinion; my read of what it would take to get Israel to hold back militarily. 

 

There is no sense in a peace agreement for Israel if Hamas keeps 2/3rds of hostages as ongoing collateral. 

 

There is sense in a peace deal, even relinquishing power for Hamas?  Who have an opportunity to not die. Perhaps even set a term where they can exile. If I were Israel, I would agree to this if all hostages are coming home. In enclosed facilities, but not jails in a foreign country. To do the right thing by Palestinian people, not let more of them die.  It is mostly Palestinians die; no matter how we look at it.  

 

Items Palestinians could offer;

 

* open visiting, remember via an international security force, not IDF, to places like Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem.

* memorials & prayer rights by the West Wall. 

* arms free zone.

* shared investment in rebuilding.

* open books on councils, votes, public spending

* minority rights and human rights monitoring

* external universities to provide teaching, technical support

 

** In my own mind employment & education for women and minorities alone? Then the benefit extrapolated by bringing actual tax in to public, not militant controls & corrupt leaders to back programs. Could immediately add a component of efficiency not seen before. But enjoyed by much of the 1st world.  Allow tech investment, medicine, pharmacy, use of water and farming to see results as Israel did when it harnessed the power of a whole workforce. Backed by education and a public purse.  

 

 

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Right on. The numbers from Hamas since early October have been skewed towards inciting outrage against jews globally. Case in point, this whole thread.

 

And before any apologists try and correct me by saying Israel, no. Jews. My nephew Cohen was beat up at school on Vancouver Island in Canada, he is not an Israeli.

 

First off, I am really sorry to hear about your nevvy.

That's really fucked up.

I hope the kids who assaulted him have been held to account for their actions. 

 

Secondly, I have no outrage against the Israeli/Jewish people.

I have no rage at all for the human suffering both Israeli's and Palestinians have endured for decades. 

 

What's the point of rage ?

 

Who has " raged " against the Isrealis/Jews in this thread ?

 

I have empathy for both groups of people.

I am saddened by event's before October 7, horrified by the events on October 7, and since then. 

 

Look at the place where the people who have rage/anger, have brought the Isreali/Palestinian people.

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

There is also no sense in a peace agreement for Israel If Hamas is not relinquishing power.  Not my opinion; my read of what it would take to get Israel to hold back militarily. 

 

There is no sense in a peace agreement for Israel if Hamas keeps 2/3rds of hostages as ongoing collateral. 

 

There is sense in a peace deal, even relinquishing power for Hamas?  Who have an opportunity to not die. Perhaps even set a term where they can exile. If I were Israel, I would agree to this if all hostages are coming home. In enclosed facilities, but not jails in a foreign country. To do the right thing by Palestinian people, not let more of them die.  It is mostly Palestinians die; no matter how we look at it.  

 

Items Palestinians could offer;

 

* open visiting, remember via an international security force, not IDF, to places like Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem.

* memorials & prayer rights by the West Wall. 

* arms free zone.

* shared investment in rebuilding.

* open books on councils, votes, public spending

* minority rights and human rights monitoring

* external universities to provide teaching, technical support

 

** In my own mind employment & education for women and minorities alone? Then the benefit extrapolated by bringing actual tax in to public, not militant controls & corrupt leaders to back programs. Could immediately add a component of efficiency not seen before. But enjoyed by much of the 1st world.  Allow tech investment, medicine, pharmacy, use of water and farming to see results as Israel did when it harnessed the power of a whole workforce. Backed by education and a public purse.  

 

 

 

You are providing solutions.

Practical solutions.

 

I want to believe others are receptive to your idea's. 

 

Again, what are people's priorities ?

 

Revenge or peace ?

 

[Canuck Surfer]

19 hours ago, Ilunga said:

As I have stated many many times, there are nutjobs on both sides.

They are religious nutjobs. 

 

 

Lets just be honest.

 

They are just nutjobs.  They may dawn a cloak of sanctity or privilege. More often use religion as a tool of control.   

 

Not just nutjobs?  Usually controlling, self serving narcissistic nutjobs. Yes including Bibi. Controls extending to violence and militant control of their societies. Not just mind control via religion in many regimes.

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Lets just be honest.

 

They are just nutjobs.  They may dawn a cloak of sanctity or privilege. More often use religion as a tool of control.   

 

Not just nutjobs?  Usually controlling, self serving narcissistic nutjobs. Yes including Bibi. Controls extending to violence and militant control of their societies. Not just mind control via religion in many regimes.

 

plenty to go around. One of the reasons I support Israel is that one day, hopefully soon, Bibi is replaced by a reasonable person. 

 

When can I say that about Gaza?

 

[Inkidu]

21 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I have asked Roman several times to state what his beliefs are in regards to a Palestinian state, he has refused to answer. He has also used a mythical religious text as the basis for his claim that Isreal " owns " Jerusalem. 

 

So on the basis of this, one can only presume that Roman does deny the right of the Palestinians to have a state of their own. 

 

So yes there is someone in this thread that denies the Palestinians a state of their own. 

 

As I stated I returned to this thread after weeks away due to the human suffering that is happening in Gaza. 

And guess what, the majority of the world agrees with me.

More and more countries are coming out and criticising Isreal for the actions in Gaza, including their best friend the US, who took the unprecedented step of freezing arms shipments to Israel.

 

If I seem to be fighting with everyone in this thread as you state, what I am actually doing is advocating for the rights of innocent civilians, especially the women and children.

These people are starving. 

Their schools have been destroyed. 

 

This is why the majority of the world has had enough.

And this was reflected in the UN vote a few days ago in regards to to Palestinian membership of the UN.

143 nations voted in favour of this.

I am glad the society I live in actually had the courage to vote. 

 

Me " fighting " with everyone seems to evidence of the fact that people don't believe what I do.

That human life is sacred. 

That women and children should be protected at all costs.

There is never an excuse for killing them.

And for causing for over a million more to face starvation. 

 

I post articles about forgiveness and peace.

 

If Jesus was a real person and he was alive now, what do you think he would " say " in regards to this.

 

We'rent we taught he preached forgiveness and peace brother ?

You're lucky logic doesn't have human rights otherwise you'd be tried for torture.