Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

12 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

You're lucky logic doesn't have human rights otherwise you'd be tried for torture. 

Oh, he doesn’t get the message that me not answering is not because of what he’s imagining  

[Inkidu]

I'll try not to quote him then but I couldn't resist. Now watch me get drawn in. 

 

[Warhippy]

23 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Not sure. One is a law and one isn’t?  Is this a whataboutism? 

 

Knowing why im asking is kind of crucial.

 

being able to differentiate between the two and why will be interesting

[Warhippy]

23 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Would scale be the first difference? Then historical harm?

No.

 

Reading the charter Hamas laid out, then read that law Israeli lawmakers enacted and then look at the actions of the two groups since and then let me know what if any difference there is

[Canuck Surfer]

23 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I have asked Roman several times to state what his beliefs are in regards to a Palestinian state, he has refused to answer. He has also used a mythical religious text as the basis for his claim that Isreal " owns " Jerusalem. 

 

For all the 1948 debate on who owns Israel Palestine? Specifically population based factors. Fully East of Jerusalem the case is not as recent.

 

Jewish peoples held a majority in population counts in Jerusalem before, well before and after independence. Even as the Turks were leaving & British arriving. Not all sectors of the city; example East Jerusalem. Legally they may not be 'entitled' to area's in the West Bank.  I see a lot of chatter on socials about area's like Judea & Samaria having sacred value & contributing to land claim beliefs. The name Samaria itself deeply involved in how Israel was named; in spite of differences between them & the specific Samaritan culture.  Yet it is in the West Bank. I did post a video of Jews visiting grave sites in 1967, of ancestors not seen since pre Ottoman times.

 

https://www.holylandsite.com/samaria

 

Wiki;

 

It includes most of the region of the ancient Kingdom of Israel, which was north of the Kingdom of Judah. The border between Samaria and Judea is set at the latitude of Ramallah. The name "Samaria" is derived from the ancient city of Samaria, capital of the northern Kingdom of Israel.

 

 

 

 

 

When did Israel become Judea?

 

Founded in 934 BCE, the kingdom ruled the lands from Jerusalem to Beersheba until its conquest in 586 BCE by the Neo-Babylonians. Although the kingdom was destroyed, the name survived with the Jewish people, and when an independent kingdom once again reemerged in 140 BCE, the land was referred to as Judea.16 July 2019

[Bob Long]

22 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

No.

 

Reading the charter Hamas laid out, then read that law Israeli lawmakers enacted and then look at the actions of the two groups since and then let me know what if any difference there is

 

You are ahead of me on this, do you have a link for the law you are talking about? 

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

For all the 1948 debate on who owns Israel Palestine? Specifically population based factors. Fully East of Jerusalem the case is not as recent.

 

Jewish peoples held a majority in population counts in Jerusalem before, well before and after independence. Even as the Turks were leaving & British arriving. Not all sectors of the city; example East Jerusalem. Legally they may not be 'entitled' to area's in the West Bank.  I see a lot of chatter on socials about area's like Judea & Samaria having sacred value & contributing to land claim beliefs. The name Samaria itself deeply involved in how Israel was named; in spite of differences between them & the specific Samaritan culture.  Yet it is in the West Bank. I did post a video of Jews visiting grave sites in 1967, of ancestors not seen since pre Ottoman times.

 

https://www.holylandsite.com/samaria

 

Wiki;

 

It includes most of the region of the ancient Kingdom of Israel, which was north of the Kingdom of Judah. The border between Samaria and Judea is set at the latitude of Ramallah. The name "Samaria" is derived from the ancient city of Samaria, capital of the northern Kingdom of Israel.

 

 

 

 

 

When did Israel become Judea?

 

Founded in 934 BCE, the kingdom ruled the lands from Jerusalem to Beersheba until its conquest in 586 BCE by the Neo-Babylonians. Although the kingdom was destroyed, the name survived with the Jewish people, and when an independent kingdom once again reemerged in 140 BCE, the land was referred to as Judea.16 July 2019

 

I am well aware of the history of Jerusalem.

As I have already posted, it has been captured and recaptured 53 times, attacked 44 times, besieged 22 times and destroyed twice 

 

What has any of this have to do with both the Palestinians and the international community wanting the Palestinians to have east Jerusalem as their capital of a future Palestinian state ?

 

Unless you believe what Scotty from the Marketing tell you.

 

You know that religious nutjob who was our last PM.

The guy that recognised West Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

The guy that believes the " seven mountains mandate ".

 

" The seven mountains mandate is a global Pentecostal movement intent on taking over the pillars of society, notably including governments and defence forces, to bring on Judgement day, so Christ can return. "

 

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/morrison-courts-pentecostal-world-domination,16582

 

Thankfully the Albanese government has reversed Scotty's decision.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am well aware of the history of Jerusalem.

As I have already posted, it has been captured and recaptured 53 times, attacked 44 times, besieged 22 times and destroyed twice 

 

What has any of this have to do with both the Palestinians and the international community wanting the Palestinians to have east Jerusalem as their capital of a future Palestinian state ?

 

Unless you believe what Scotty from the Marketing tell you.

 

You know that religious nutjob who was our last PM.

The guy that recognised West Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

The guy that believes the " seven mountains mandate ".

 

" The seven mountains mandate is a global Pentecostal movement intent on taking over the pillars of society, notably including governments and defence forces, to bring on Judgement day, so Christ can return. "

 

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/morrison-courts-pentecostal-world-domination,16582

 

Thankfully the Albanese government has reversed Scotty's decision.

 

 

If Palestinians, or surrounding communities / countries truly wanted a state for this tribe?  

 

- In 1948 Gaza was held by Egypt.

- In 1948 West Bank was held by Jordan.  

 

WTF!

 

Why is it no Arab allies supported a state for them? Held the territory themselves and did not usher in this 'ideal' scenario.  As quote / unquote they support now?  Bear in mind that both Egypt and Jordan booted most Palestinians out. Don't want them now. Nor did Jordan support a state for them in the 1967 war, after the PLO was established in '64... Both countries, and the PLO all postured to start another war, just as in 1948 and wipe out Israel.

 

Then Jordan displaced 700,000 'Palestinians' associated with PLO interests and killed 30,000 in 1972.  

 

____________________________________________________________________________

 

We both know in our hearts that if they would not get their asses booted?  These Arab groups would still probably be trying to conquer all this territory, each for themselves.  

 

The other primary reason is the US supplies so much aid to places like Jordan in return for peace with Israel. Cough and the rights to army bases. Which provides an opportunity for the US to influence a balance of power, access oil. The Kingdom itself would probably not survive. Not that this is necessarily a good thing? Palestinian people themselves are a majority, not minority, to this day where the royal family represents a minority race. Jordanian popular opinion would also boot the royal family and go gung ho after all things Jewish. 

 

US influence is also similar in S Arabia. Although they have (had) way more leverage with oil. Again we could argue this is not a good thing?

 

Careful for what you wish for! As America is now Oil independent, and the world of Geo Politics is swiftly moving to Green energy. Oil will be less a factor. Its very possible the US may no longer give a sh!t about various Arab tribes bangong each other for militant control. The main reason they already do not give a sh!t is so Middle Eastern, Russian, or Chinese interests do not cut off trade routes, or admittedly less compelling regional interests . 

 

Otherwise these groups would already be in full scale war. 

 

And the real reasons Jordanians, Egyptians Syrians, Turks and others only want a state for Palestine? Is if its at Israel's expense! 

 

Further who do not want Palestinians / Hamas watering down their own internal support base, tribal, or I call it feudal interest. Within their own borders. Its patently obvious when you view the positions these countries take, including not accepting refugee's along with the demographics I posted the other day.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

If Palestinians, or surrounding communities / countries truly wanted a state for this tribe?  

 

- In 1948 Gaza was held by Egypt.

- In 1948 West Bank was held by Jordan.  

 

WTF!

 

Why is it no Arab allies supported a state for them? Held the territory themselves and did not usher in this 'ideal' scenario.  As quote / unquote they support now?  Bear in mind that both Egypt and Jordan booted most Palestinians out. Don't want them now. Nor did Jordan support a state for them in the 1967 war, after the PLO was established in '64... Both countries, and the PLO all postured to start another war, just as in 1948 and wipe out Israel.

 

Then Jordan displaced 700,000 'Palestinians' associated with PLO interests and killed 30,000 in 1972.  

 

____________________________________________________________________________

 

We both know in our hearts that if they would not get their asses booted?  These Arab groups would still probably be trying to conquer all this territory, each for themselves.  

 

The other primary reason is the US supplies so much aid to places like Jordan in return for peace with Israel. Cough and the rights to army bases. Which provides an opportunity for the US to influence a balance of power, access oil. The Kingdom itself would probably not survive. Not that this is necessarily a good thing? Palestinian people themselves are a majority, not minority, to this day where the royal family represents a minority race. Jordanian popular opinion would also boot the royal family and go gung ho after all things Jewish. 

 

US influence is also similar in S Arabia. Although they have (had) way more leverage with oil. Again we could argue this is not a good thing?

 

Careful for what you wish for! As America is now Oil independent, and the world of Geo Politics is swiftly moving to Green energy. Oil will be less a factor. Its very possible the US may no longer give a sh!t about various Arab tribes bangong each other for militant control. The main reason they already do not give a sh!t is so Middle Eastern, Russian, or Chinese interests do not cut off trade routes, or admittedly less compelling regional interests . 

 

Otherwise these groups would already be in full scale war. 

 

And the real reasons Jordanians, Egyptians Syrians, Turks and others only want a state for Palestine? Is if its at Israel's expense! 

 

Further who do not want Palestinians / Hamas watering down their own internal support base, tribal, or I call it feudal interest. Within their own borders. Its patently obvious when you view the positions these countries take, including not accepting refugee's along with the demographics I posted the other day.

 

 

Again, what does any of this have to do with the Palestinians, with support from the majority of the international community, wanting east Jerusalem as a  capital for a future Palestinian state ?

 

This is considered the best option for a peaceful solution to this never ending conflict. 

 

You either agree with this, or you don't. 

 

From memory you stated something along the lines of an open city. 

 

All these so called " sacred" sites.

 

What's more sacred, human life ?

 

Or building/s ?

 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Again, what does any of this have to do with the Palestinians, with support from the majority of the international community, wanting east Jerusalem as a  capital for a future Palestinian state ?

 

This is considered the best option for a peaceful solution to this never ending conflict. 

 

You either agree with this, or you don't. 

 

From memory you stated something along the lines of an open city. 

 

All these so called " sacred" sites.

 

What's more sacred, human life ?

 

Or building/s ?

 

 

I believe in a state for Palestinian people.  It's also only a short term solution if only done because it is enforced.

 

We cannot forget sacred sites; I personally believe access is a sign. A major indicator & form of concession that says Palestinian people want peace.  Palestinians, of course want control of Al Aqsa. Its under heavy controls, often abuse but Palestinians have had more access given, even under Jewish control than offered in return. Than Jews who went nearly 500 years, yes under mostly Ottoman, nonetheless access to many of their sacred sites. Without sign that Palestinian, Syrian, Egyptian, Bedouin or other Arab groups including Palestinian would accede such access to Israel. Regardless of affiliation to religion I am a huge believer in culture.

 

People want to have something to believe in!    

 

Its not buildings. Its what they mean; how groups look back to see what they have evolved from. Created in the past? Like you pay reverence to your parents farm, how they grew tree's. Created business, life. Would visit their gravesite, their beliefs & principles re flood your memory. Regardless of whether religion is mixed these thoughts are priceless. This is all culture! Jews are also a founding father culture in human history.  Can offer meaning, lessons to everyone, as do many such cultures, faiths.  

 

All of these Arab groups, at times, but overwhelmingly do not believe in Jewish right to language, culture, belief, religion (including you on this last one, presume for yourself your view is correct & even if it may be? Its unlikely to negotiate favor or create peace) and yes sacred sites. Exactly what Israel says it is 'managing?' Managing is my description. Allowing access but controlling is called Apartheid, even Genocide handled by Jews 'in world opinion, by you.' Yet zero tolerance for Jewish access, even existence has been an Arab / Palestinian policy since day dot!

 

This has to change, just like Jewish settlement abuse. Bombing of Gaza. Genocide and Apartheid, ethnic cleansing are rampant, pervasive in 'control groups,' another one of my descriptions, throughout Islamic militantism. World opinion... Perhaps its not anti-semitism? Maybe its simply disgust that Israel does this, perhaps because they have bigger & more bombs. Yet Hamas have an even stronger Apartheid policies, teaching ins reverse. It still won't change if corrupt militants won't find jobs for women, create education systems studying efficiency, productivity, industry, wealth to their people. Instead charge payola  for goods smuggled through tunnels, to provide 'security?'

 

Suggest to Jewish people if you can improve respect for us at Al Aqsa? We can find respect, acceptance for your culture & religion! What do you think that message would do to help offer peace? 

 

It is not just Jewish people that have to make concessions. If this 'problem' is to be turned towards a shared world! 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I believe in a state for Palestinian people.  It's also only a short term solution if only done because it is enforced.

 

We cannot forget sacred sites; I personally believe access is a sign. A major indicator & form of concession that says Palestinian people want peace.  Palestinians, of course want control of Al Aqsa. Its under heavy controls, often abuse but Palestinians have had more access given, even under Jewish control than offered in return. Than Jews who went nearly 500 years, yes under mostly Ottoman, nonetheless access to many of their sacred sites. Without sign that Palestinian, Syrian, Egyptian, Bedouin or other Arab groups including Palestinian would accede such access to Israel. Regardless of affiliation to religion I am a huge believer in culture.

 

People want to have something to believe in!    

 

Its not buildings. Its what they mean; how groups look back to see what they have evolved from. Created in the past? Like you pay reverence to your parents farm, how they grew tree's. Created business, life. Would visit their gravesite, their beliefs & principles re flood your memory. Regardless of whether religion is mixed these thoughts are priceless. This is all culture! Jews are also a founding father culture in human history.  Can offer meaning, lessons to everyone, as do many such cultures, faiths.  

 

All of these Arab groups, at times, but overwhelmingly do not believe in Jewish right to language, culture, belief, religion (including you on this last one, presume for yourself your view is correct & even if it may be? Its unlikely to negotiate favor or create peace) and yes sacred sites. Exactly what Israel says it is 'managing?' Managing is my description. Allowing access but controlling is called Apartheid, even Genocide handled by Jews 'in world opinion, by you.' Yet zero tolerance for Jewish access, even existence has been an Arab / Palestinian policy since day dot!

 

This has to change, just like Jewish settlement abuse. Bombing of Gaza. Genocide and Apartheid, ethnic cleansing are rampant, pervasive in 'control groups,' another one of my descriptions, throughout Islamic militantism. World opinion... Perhaps its not anti-semitism? Maybe its simply disgust that Israel does this, perhaps because they have bigger & more bombs. Yet Hamas have an even stronger Apartheid policies, teaching ins reverse. It still won't change if corrupt militants won't find jobs for women, create education systems studying efficiency, productivity, industry, wealth to their people. Instead charge payola  for goods smuggled through tunnels, to provide 'security?'

 

Suggest to Jewish people if you can improve respect for us at Al Aqsa? We can find respect, acceptance for your culture & religion! What do you think that message would do to help offer peace? 

 

It is not just Jewish people that have to make concessions. If this 'problem' is to be turned towards a shared world! 

 

Again, what's more important, human life,  buildings, or a wall  ?

 

And I am a believer that we should maintain to the best of our ability historical sites, buildings/artifacts.

 

However when those sites, buildings and artifacts cause so much Bullshit.

Do you realise how many people have been killed fighting over these " sacred " sites over the last 2500 hundred years ? 

 

You can shove those " sacred " sites where the sun don't shine.

 

They have been the cause of so much pain and suffering. 

 

If those " sacred " sites didn't exist, maybe this shit wouldn't be happening in regards to Jerusalem.

 

I have this great idea in regards to people having something to believe in.

Believe that we are all brothers and sisters under the sun.

That all the species we share this planet with have a purpose in the scheme of things. 

 

As Black Elk, the Oglala Sioux spiritual leader stated 

 

" The holy land is everywhere "

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Again, what's more important, human life,  buildings, or a wall  ?

 

And I am a believer that we should maintain to the best of our ability historical sites, buildings/artifacts.

 

However when those sites, buildings and artifacts cause so much Bullshit.

Do you realise how many people have been killed fighting over these " sacred " sites over the last 2500 hundred years ? 

 

You can shove those " sacred " sites where the sun don't shine.

 

They have been the cause of so much pain and suffering. 

 

If those " sacred " sites didn't exist, maybe this shit wouldn't be happening in regards to Jerusalem.

 

I have this great idea in regards to people having something to believe in.

Believe that we are all brothers and sisters under the sun.

That all the species we share this planet with have a purpose in the scheme of things. 

 

As Black Elk, the Oglala Sioux spiritual leader stated 

 

" The holy land is everywhere "

 

Sorry; you cannot accomplish understanding of those you have conflict telling them what they should believe. That their culture is unimportant.

 

It is very selfish suggesting all people have to do is 'listen to Black Elk.' The worlds' problems will go away? This actually sounds like why wars occur over religion. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Taxi]

In not so surprising news, it turns out the Hamas casualty estimates were wrong. The UN approximately halves its estimates for women and children killed:

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza

 

Quote

While more than 9,500 women and 14,500 children were reported among the fatalities by the UN’s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) on May 6, two days later that number was revised significantly downward. Today, under 5,000 women and 8,000 children are now officially listed by the UN as casualties.

 

No major announcement to accompany the change though. Just about 12,000 women and children coming back to life.

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

In not so surprising news, it turns out the Hamas casualty estimates were wrong. The UN approximately halves its estimates for women and children killed:

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza

 

 

No major announcement to accompany the change though. Just about 12,000 women and children coming back to life.

we were talking about this Friday and Saturday too. It is also worth noting that a teenage boy who is with Hamas will be listed as a child by Hamas in the reports to the Palestinian Authority, who then report to the UN, despite that child also being a combatant.  I think we are looking at a third of the casualties being purely civilian over all of this, and thankfully the %'s of civilian deaths are dropping by the day. While this is deadly serious, it is also worth noting that at least a significant portion of those civilians, while non combatants, provide aid and succor to Hamas. Talking about wives and kids of combatants in this sense. Early in the conflict I saw more than one video of Hamas fighters surrounded by women, my guess is wives, and while surrounded by these unarmed people, the Hamas fighters would shoot over their heads at IDF forces. Any action to take out the hostile threat would then likely take out the civilians surrounding him. It is an icky subject for sure, as is the whole thread here about what is happening.

 

War sucks, don't start one. 

[Sharpshooter]

15 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am well aware of the history of Jerusalem.

As I have already posted, it has been captured and recaptured 53 times, attacked 44 times, besieged 22 times and destroyed twice 

 

What has any of this have to do with both the Palestinians and the international community wanting the Palestinians to have east Jerusalem as their capital of a future Palestinian state ?

 

Unless you believe what Scotty from the Marketing tell you.

 

You know that religious nutjob who was our last PM.

The guy that recognised West Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

The guy that believes the " seven mountains mandate ".

 

" The seven mountains mandate is a global Pentecostal movement intent on taking over the pillars of society, notably including governments and defence forces, to bring on Judgement day, so Christ can return. "

 

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/morrison-courts-pentecostal-world-domination,16582

 

Thankfully the Albanese government has reversed Scotty's decision.

 

[Sharpshooter]

10 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Again, what's more important, human life,  buildings, or a wall  ?

 

And I am a believer that we should maintain to the best of our ability historical sites, buildings/artifacts.

 

However when those sites, buildings and artifacts cause so much Bullshit.

Do you realise how many people have been killed fighting over these " sacred " sites over the last 2500 hundred years ? 

 

You can shove those " sacred " sites where the sun don't shine.

 

They have been the cause of so much pain and suffering. 

 

If those " sacred " sites didn't exist, maybe this shit wouldn't be happening in regards to Jerusalem.

 

I have this great idea in regards to people having something to believe in.

Believe that we are all brothers and sisters under the sun.

That all the species we share this planet with have a purpose in the scheme of things. 

 

As Black Elk, the Oglala Sioux spiritual leader stated 

 

" The holy land is everywhere "

“What is Jerusalem? Your holy palaces lie over the Jewish temple that the Romans pulled down. The Muslim places of worship lie over yours. Which is more holy?”

 

“The wall? The Mosque? The Sepulchre? Who has claim? No-one has claim.”

 

“All have claim!”

[Gurn]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

“What is Jerusalem? Your holy palaces lie over the Jewish temple that the Romans pulled down. The Muslim places of worship lie over yours. Which is more holy?”

 

“The wall? The Mosque? The Sepulchre? Who has claim? No-one has claim.”

 

“All have claim!”

Sad stuff, all this fighting over so called holy land.

apparently god doesn't really give a shit; -or doesn't exist, which is much more likely.

never has, never will.

 

Time for people to give up on this 'going to better place' bullshit, and just be better to each other while we are here.

[Gurn]

Also see some Republican down in the U.S. is talking about nuking Gaza:

how's that for irrational thought process?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/lindsey-graham-suggests-israel-should-nuke-gaza-and-claims-hiroshima-bomb-was-the-right-thing/ar-BB1mjvQA?ocid=BingNewsSerp

 

 

[Gnarcore]

25 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Also see some Republican down in the U.S. is talking about nuking Gaza:

how's that for irrational thought process?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/lindsey-graham-suggests-israel-should-nuke-gaza-and-claims-hiroshima-bomb-was-the-right-thing/ar-BB1mjvQA?ocid=BingNewsSerp

 

 

Graham's mom should of nuked him in the womb. What an asinine statement...hey nuke em and enjoy the fallout! What a fucking piece of shit. 

Plus they already leveled the place...what need is there to nuke it?  

[Sharpshooter]

29 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Sad stuff, all this fighting over so called holy land.

apparently god doesn't really give a shit; -or doesn't exist, which is much more likely.

never has, never will.

 

Time for people to give up on this 'going to better place' bullshit, and just be better to each other while we are here.

“ God will understand, my lord. And if he doesn't...then he is not God. And we need not worry.”

 

”I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. And goodness - what God desires - is here [points to Balian's head] and here [points to Balian's heart] and by what you decide to do every day you will be a good man...or not.”

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, Gurn said:

Sad stuff, all this fighting over so called holy land.

apparently god doesn't really give a shit; -or doesn't exist, which is much more likely.

never has, never will.

 

Time for people to give up on this 'going to better place' bullshit, and just be better to each other while we are here.

 

Me and like 5 billion other people think you are full of dog poo.  Also, we will do what we want with our beliefs, just like you can do whatever the fuck you want with yours.  What gives you the right, or anyone else, to tell another human being what to believe?  My mind, my choice...

 

Also, please prove that God doesn't exist...  Oh wait, that is another thread, nevermind...

[Gurn]

23 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Me and like 5 billion other people think you are full of dog poo.  Also, we will do what we want with our beliefs, just like you can do whatever the fuck you want with yours.  What gives you the right, or anyone else, to tell another human being what to believe?  My mind, my choice...

 

Also, please prove that God doesn't exist...  Oh wait, that is another thread, nevermind...

Thank you for your calm, measured response; it's very christian of you.