RomanPer Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 6 minutes ago, RWMc1 said: I've noticed in most of these sorts of videos lately that they are not wearing uniforms but are dressed as civilians. If the IDF bombs them the un will claim that they are civilians and many will buy into the narrative. It's not just recent, it's always been like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 It was not the Milkman. He was too obvious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babych Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/13/middleeast/israel-strike-gaza-twins-intl-latam So this is what.. more fake news created by Hamas? I agree that Hamas needs to be taken out. What I’m arguing is that Israel is NOT doing a good enough job of sparing innocent lives. Not fucking close. To those arguing that death tolls are being exaggerated, etc - you are missing the point. Israel needs to do a better job of NOT killing non-combatants. History will not look kindly on what is happening here, I guarantee you that. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Babych said: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/13/middleeast/israel-strike-gaza-twins-intl-latam So this is what.. more fake news created by Hamas? I agree that Hamas needs to be taken out. What I’m arguing is that Israel is NOT doing a good enough job of sparing innocent lives. Not fucking close. To those arguing that death tolls are being exaggerated, etc - you are missing the point. Israel needs to do a better job of NOT killing non-combatants. History will not look kindly on what is happening here, I guarantee you that. Some in this thread will show you stats that every war has civilian casualties. They call it the cost of war. Kinda like the kids in the states that get shot at schools etc....some call it the cost of freedom. I backed out of this thread, mostly, a while back. I was called idealistic. My criticism is that the on going conflict over there is doing the same thing over, and over, and over. There has to be a better way? but no.... this is how wars are apparently, they cant be any different, and if children die or strave then its Hama's fault. No other discussion respected. Edited August 14 by bishopshodan 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babych Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 22 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Some in this thread will show you stats that every war has civilian casualties. They call it the cost of war. Kinda like the kids in the states that get shot at schools etc....some call it the cost of freedom. I backed out of this thread, mostly, a while back. I was called idealistic. My criticism is that the on going conflict over there is doing the same thing over, and over, and over. There has to be a better way? but no.... this is how wars are apparently, they cant be any different, and if children die or strave then its Hama's fault. No other discussion respected. I think you and I are like-minded, brother. Thank you for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 2 hours ago, Babych said: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/13/middleeast/israel-strike-gaza-twins-intl-latam So this is what.. more fake news created by Hamas? I agree that Hamas needs to be taken out. What I’m arguing is that Israel is NOT doing a good enough job of sparing innocent lives. Not fucking close. To those arguing that death tolls are being exaggerated, etc - you are missing the point. Israel needs to do a better job of NOT killing non-combatants. History will not look kindly on what is happening here, I guarantee you that. Have you ever been to war? Not in a movie but actually fighting? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 1 hour ago, bishopshodan said: Some in this thread will show you stats that every war has civilian casualties. They call it the cost of war. Kinda like the kids in the states that get shot at schools etc....some call it the cost of freedom. I backed out of this thread, mostly, a while back. I was called idealistic. My criticism is that the on going conflict over there is doing the same thing over, and over, and over. There has to be a better way? but no.... this is how wars are apparently, they cant be any different, and if children die or strave then its Hama's fault. No other discussion respected. There is a better way. But it probably won't be seen in our lifetimes. I'm quite confident that if every ME country was a democracy, that would be the end of this kind of warfare we are seeing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegioN Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 46 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Have you ever been to war? Not in a movie but actually fighting? Just curious. How does that align with Russia's actions in Ukraine. Same? Different? Sometimes it seems like you do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify two different positions in two different countries (both conveniently personally connected to you). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 2 hours ago, bishopshodan said: Some in this thread will show you stats that every war has civilian casualties. They call it the cost of war. Kinda like the kids in the states that get shot at schools etc....some call it the cost of freedom. I backed out of this thread, mostly, a while back. I was called idealistic. My criticism is that the on going conflict over there is doing the same thing over, and over, and over. There has to be a better way? but no.... this is how wars are apparently, they cant be any different, and if children die or strave then its Hama's fault. No other discussion respected. Unfortunately when it has come to radicals and terrorism the only effective way in the past has been brute force. They are usually very committed to their cause and will dedicate their life to it. That said is a bad situation, with a heavily populated small area and Hamas using the civilians as human shields. I do think they Israel could be doing a better job to minimalize casualties for sure though and likely have aspiration to increase their power in the region. Hamas made a grave error on Oct 7 and are now suffering the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 1 hour ago, LegioN said: How does that align with Russia's actions in Ukraine. Same? Different? Sometimes it seems like you do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify two different positions in two different countries (both conveniently personally connected to you). Who attacked who in both situations? I’m not a gymnast, I am a volleyball player, hitting it straight. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMc1 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegioN Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 48 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Who attacked who in both situations? I’m not a gymnast, I am a volleyball player, hitting it straight. Fair enough, I'm replying more to your generalized "have you ever been in a war?" statement. Where killing babies in one part of the world is a war crime but killing babies in another part of the world is the cost of doing business. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 3 hours ago, RomanPer said: Have you ever been to war? Not in a movie but actually fighting? Just curious. Is that a prerequisite to having an opinion? I don't often disagree with you (though I think you have certain biases that are as easy to spot as mine are) but I just don't think you are making a valid point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 13 minutes ago, Satchmo said: Is that a prerequisite to having an opinion? I don't often disagree with you (though I think you have certain biases that are as easy to spot as mine are) but I just don't think you are making a valid point. I've never been to war. I have known some children though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 (edited) ... Edited August 14 by bishopshodan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshiyoshi Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 35 minutes ago, LegioN said: Fair enough, I'm replying more to your generalized "have you ever been in a war?" statement. Where killing babies in one part of the world is a war crime but killing babies in another part of the world is the cost of doing business. There is a difference between collateral damage and intentional targeting. Russia is aiming at civilian targets, Israel is being forced to hit them because the enemy is hiding in them and using them to prosecute their war. I could make a long ass post trying to explain the difference but this isnt something thats hard to see so im just going to assume you are choosing to not see the difference to make your point. Ive been seeing a lot of people saying that Israel should be able to do a better job of avoiding civilian casualties but no one seems to be willing to say how that is to be done? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 23 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said: Ive been seeing a lot of people saying that Israel should be able to do a better job of avoiding civilian casualties but no one seems to be willing to say how that is to be done? It won't be easy to do but if attempts were made the world would notice and probably lighten up a bit. I'd like to see more Entebbe level logistics and wizardry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 2 hours ago, LegioN said: Fair enough, I'm replying more to your generalized "have you ever been in a war?" statement. Where killing babies in one part of the world is a war crime but killing babies in another part of the world is the cost of doing business. Never said anything about killing babies. There's a lot more to war than "killing babies". My comment about being to war meant that it's easy to sit in a warm house, near a computer and be a pacifist and criticize things that happen in a war zone. Once you are in an active war - your perspective changes a bit. And I challenge you to show me examples where Israel DELIBERATELY targeted babies. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 2 hours ago, Satchmo said: Is that a prerequisite to having an opinion? I don't often disagree with you (though I think you have certain biases that are as easy to spot as mine are) but I just don't think you are making a valid point. Absolutely not, it wasn't meant as "if you've never been to war, you can't have an opinion". It was more in line with it's very easy to be an idealist and think that all is needed to stop the war is to stop shooting if you've never experienced it first hand. I don't wish on anyone to have that experience though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 2 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said: There is a difference between collateral damage and intentional targeting. Russia is aiming at civilian targets, Israel is being forced to hit them because the enemy is hiding in them and using them to prosecute their war. I could make a long ass post trying to explain the difference but this isnt something thats hard to see so im just going to assume you are choosing to not see the difference to make your point. Ive been seeing a lot of people saying that Israel should be able to do a better job of avoiding civilian casualties but no one seems to be willing to say how that is to be done? This is precisely my point, thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 1 hour ago, Satchmo said: It won't be easy to do but if attempts were made the world would notice and probably lighten up a bit. I'd like to see more Entebbe level logistics and wizardry. The world only notices what it wants to notice. The amount of efforts that Israel goes to, often putting themselves in tactical disadvantage is huge. But it's not sexy for the news around the world. They won't tell that Israel announces way in advance in Arabic about upcoming operation in certain areas, they won't show you leaflets that Israel distributes in advance of the attacks. They won't tell you about the "knock on the roof" that Israel does by dropping a light weight on the house they want to target long in advance. Not really sure what more Israel can do. And guess what - when something goes wrong, Israel admits it more often than not and investigates. And if investigation finds Israeli military personnel criminally responsible - they do go to jail. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 (edited) 20 minutes ago, RomanPer said: The world only notices what it wants to notice. The amount of efforts that Israel goes to, often putting themselves in tactical disadvantage is huge. But it's not sexy for the news around the world. They won't tell that Israel announces way in advance in Arabic about upcoming operation in certain areas, they won't show you leaflets that Israel distributes in advance of the attacks. They won't tell you about the "knock on the roof" that Israel does by dropping a light weight on the house they want to target long in advance. Not really sure what more Israel can do. And guess what - when something goes wrong, Israel admits it more often than not and investigates. And if investigation finds Israeli military personnel criminally responsible - they do go to jail. Interesting. Why is the world not told of this? EDIT: Senior Israeli source: Gaza will not be Hamastan; ‘roof knocking’ policy no longer norm https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/senior-israeli-source-gaza-will-not-be-hamastan-roof-knocking-policy-no-longer-norm/ (The comments section - which are edited for civility - in this article are quite something. Granted they were all made Oct 9th/23. I was pretty pissed that day too. ) Edited August 14 by Satchmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 16 minutes ago, Satchmo said: Interesting. Why is the world not told of this? EDIT: Senior Israeli source: Gaza will not be Hamastan; ‘roof knocking’ policy no longer norm https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/senior-israeli-source-gaza-will-not-be-hamastan-roof-knocking-policy-no-longer-norm/ (The comments section - which are edited for civility - in this article are quite something. Granted they were all made Oct 9th/23. I was pretty pissed that day too. ) It was October 9th and I wouldn't be surprised if "senior Israeli source" was someone like Ben Gvir... As for why the world is not told this - the world is told, the world chooses not to listen. Every attempt by Israel to present its side of the story is immediately being labeled "hasbarah" by the anti Israel crowd and became for some reason a swear word (the word "hasbarah" is translated as "explanation" from Hebrew). At some point Israel decided not to bother too hard since no matter what Israel says, the loud minority swarms every attempt. Some channels are still maintained though, like this one: https://x.com/IDF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 8 hours ago, bishopshodan said: Some in this thread will show you stats that every war has civilian casualties. They call it the cost of war. Kinda like the kids in the states that get shot at schools etc....some call it the cost of freedom. I backed out of this thread, mostly, a while back. I was called idealistic. My criticism is that the on going conflict over there is doing the same thing over, and over, and over. There has to be a better way? but no.... this is how wars are apparently, they cant be any different, and if children die or strave then its Hama's fault. No other discussion respected. Yeah. I have been called idealistic, a pacifist. These are meant as insults. I have had one poster backhandedly state he will ram my face into piss. Same poster told me to fuck off. The reason why Israel has backed down somewhat is because there has been international pressure on them to do so. We must always speak out against injustice, especially when you might be unpopular for doing so. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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