Taxi Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 6 hours ago, Ilunga said: You can't bomb the idea the Palestinians have in regards to having a state of their own, their freedom, and hope for a better future. And better minds than ours have pointed out you can't kill your way to a victory against a counter insurgency. And how do you feel about the post above this ? Mizrahi Jews relating their experiences with Zionism. Still believe that Zionism is simply Jews wanting a state of their own. Or isn't the words of Mizrahi Jews good enough for you. You can bomb the armies that Iran spent billions of dollars building up on Israel's borders though. Hamas is far more than a mere national movement. They are a well armed and trained proxy army funded by Iran, with assists from Russia, Qatar, and Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 6 hours ago, Ilunga said: It all gets down to whether you, or anyone else, believe Isreals response is proportionate. Tens of millions of people with consciences around the world believe that is it disproportionate to kill tens of thousands of people, women and children included, and destroy entire enclave. More and more Isrealis believe this. You do realise that was Mizrahi Jews describing their history and experiences in Israel ? And all you have to say is I am sorry I asked. They are talking about being persecuted. Their children being experimented on. Their kids taken away from them. They are persecuted, marginalised. They feel like they are treated like second class citizens in their own country, by their own supposed people. Unfuckinbelivable. Not "are" but "were". It was a known issue within Israeli society and a lot has happened since the 50s to right the wrongs. If we follow your choice of words, there's still slavery in the US today. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 31 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Not "are" but "were". It was a known issue within Israeli society and a lot has happened since the 50s to right the wrongs. If we follow your choice of words, there's still slavery in the US today. Not to mention that the marriage rate between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Jews in Israel is something insanely high like 25-30%. Having people from diverse backgrounds and blending them into a cohesive society - while overcoming challenges created by differing skin color, culture, language, and economic backgrounds - was far from easy. Israel managed to pull it off, likely in a way that no other country has done before. Stating that the problems in Israel are the result of racism from Ashkenazi Jews is just straight up ignorance too. The Ashkenazi Jews overwhelmingly vote left, and it's actually the Mizrahi Jews who largely support Netanyahu. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 4 hours ago, RomanPer said: Jewish voice for peace is a fringe group that doesn't represent even 1% of Jews in the world. It's being paraded by the anti-Israel crowd as if it's some sort of real representation. We also had Kapos in the concentration camps, so what? So you are denying the contents of that article ? I am not anti - Isreal. I am anti - injustice. Anyone one, or any group, that doesn't agree with you is a fringe group, or its only their opinion. You sound exactly like the people here in Aus who try and downplay our treatment of our indigenous people. They had their children stolen from them as well. Known as the stolen generation. This actually happened to white children as well. I am a member of the " white " stolen generation. " White mothers of stolen children also deserve an apology " https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/white-mothers-of-stolen-children-also-deserve-an-apology-20101207-18o7t.html Instead of owning your (Isreal's) mistakes, you try and discredit the people who were victims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 4 hours ago, RomanPer said: Not "are" but "were". It was a known issue within Israeli society and a lot has happened since the 50s to right the wrongs. If we follow your choice of words, there's still slavery in the US today. Were ? Dated last year roman " Fighting on behalf of Ethiopian Jews " https://www.brandeis.edu/jewish-experience/israel-middle-east/2023/january/ethiopia-israel-mola.html " Mola arrived in Israel in 1984 aged 12, but life in the country hasn't been what she imagined. Ethiopian Jews, in her experience, face mistreatment, discrimination and injustice. Today she is one of the country's leading activists, a board member of the new Israel fund advocating for equality for Israels minorities, and a co founder of mothers on guard, which the Isreali newspaper Haaretz described as the " Black Jewish Wall of mums fighting Israeli police brutality " And yes roman, just like Jews of colour face descrimination in Isreal today, African Americans still face discrimination in the US today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 42 minutes ago, Ilunga said: So you are denying the contents of that article ? I am not anti - Isreal. I am anti - injustice. Anyone one, or any group, that doesn't agree with you is a fringe group, or its only their opinion. You sound exactly like the people here in Aus who try and downplay our treatment of our indigenous people. They had their children stolen from them as well. Known as the stolen generation. This actually happened to white children as well. I am a member of the " white " stolen generation. " White mothers of stolen children also deserve an apology " https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/white-mothers-of-stolen-children-also-deserve-an-apology-20101207-18o7t.html Instead of owning your (Isreal's) mistakes, you try and discredit the people who were victims. Less than 1% of Jews don't represent "Jewish Voice" no matter how hard they want to be called that way. It's easy to wave common phrases without thinking about realities on the ground. It's easy to be idealist and pretend that everyone around you is decent and has the same beliefs that you do. I can guarantee their position will change if they face a Hamas terrorist with a knife or AK-47 ready to kill them regardless of how peaceful they are. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 30 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Were ? Dated last year roman " Fighting on behalf of Ethiopian Jews " https://www.brandeis.edu/jewish-experience/israel-middle-east/2023/january/ethiopia-israel-mola.html " Mola arrived in Israel in 1984 aged 12, but life in the country hasn't been what she imagined. Ethiopian Jews, in her experience, face mistreatment, discrimination and injustice. Today she is one of the country's leading activists, a board member of the new Israel fund advocating for equality for Israels minorities, and a co founder of mothers on guard, which the Isreali newspaper Haaretz described as the " Black Jewish Wall of mums fighting Israeli police brutality " And yes roman, just like Jews of colour face descrimination in Isreal today, African Americans still face discrimination in the US today. Dude, please stop. You are sitting in Australia and using random articles to tell me what's happening in day to day life in my country. Just stop. If you truly want to find out what's happening in Israel - buy a one way ticket, spend 6 months in Israel in different communities to find out what is what. Also, if you want to be correct - Ethiopian Jews are not Mizrahi Jews. Learn the distinction before trying to teach me something from your high horse. I'm not even going to bother trying to prove anything to you. There're prejudices in every society. There's a big step between prejudice and discrimination at the state level. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 9 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Less than 1% of Jews don't represent "Jewish Voice" no matter how hard they want to be called that way. It's easy to wave common phrases without thinking about realities on the ground. It's easy to be idealist and pretend that everyone around you is decent and has the same beliefs that you do. I can guarantee their position will change if they face a Hamas terrorist with a knife or AK-47 ready to kill them regardless of how peaceful they are. Here you go again, rather than owning Isreals mistakes, you try and discredit the victims. That's why people like you continue to make the same mistakes, you never admit you make a mistake. You keep talking about Isrealis feeling threatened. Up until October 7 who had suffered more deaths and casualties in the last 20 odd years. The Palestinians. I have posted the figures in this thread before. Since 2005 -2020, roughly 5-6000 Palestinians killed, with 115,000 casualties. 250 Isrealis killed and roughly 5,000 casualties. So who has more chance of being killed or injured roman ? Palestinians do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 13 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Dude, please stop. You are sitting in Australia and using random articles to tell me what's happening in day to day life in my country. Just stop. If you truly want to find out what's happening in Israel - buy a one way ticket, spend 6 months in Israel in different communities to find out what is what. Also, if you want to be correct - Ethiopian Jews are not Mizrahi Jews. Learn the distinction before trying to teach me something from your high horse. I'm not even going to bother trying to prove anything to you. There're prejudices in every society. There's a big step between prejudice and discrimination at the state level. Dude, I won't. You live in Canada, so Isreal is not your country. Where, in that post did I state Ethiopian Jews are Mizrahi Jews ? I didn't. You brought up black Americans, using them as example. I brought up the example of Ethiopian Jews that are still facing predjudice and discrimination in Israel to this day. Now you are starting to get it, there are predjudices and discrimination in every society, mine included. See, I can admit this. Why can't you admit that Israel has discriminated against parts of its population ? All these different types of Jews, must admit, it does get confusing to an Australian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 5 hours ago, Taxi said: Not to mention that the marriage rate between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Jews in Israel is something insanely high like 25-30%. Having people from diverse backgrounds and blending them into a cohesive society - while overcoming challenges created by differing skin color, culture, language, and economic backgrounds - was far from easy. Israel managed to pull it off, likely in a way that no other country has done before. Stating that the problems in Israel are the result of racism from Ashkenazi Jews is just straight up ignorance too. The Ashkenazi Jews overwhelmingly vote left, and it's actually the Mizrahi Jews who largely support Netanyahu. https://www.timesofisrael.com/inequality-between-mizrahi-ashkenazi-jews-to-be-measured-with-new-statistics/ " Among Mizrahi social justice activists, the burueas decision is being celebrated as an important victory, according to Lihi Yona, a university of Haifa scholar who writes about how the lack of governmental recognition of Mizrahi Jews affects their standing in the legal system. " Knowing more accurately where Mizrahi Jews are still facing barriers and discrimination can help activists in knowing where direct resources, and help push the conversation where it needs to be: how to fight discrimination rather than how to proves it exist " Yona said. She said denial of the existence of anti - Mizrahi discrimination is so pervasive that the courts tend to overlook it. " And you stated that Mizrahi Jews support Netanyahu, that is correct, however " But the electoral strength of Mizrahi voters doesn't translate directly into representation in government. A 2021 analysis by non profit newsroom Hashomrim found that Mizrahi Jews are still under represented. For example Ashkenazi Jews have served atop major government ministries at about twice the rate as Mizrahi Jews over the last 20 years. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarcore Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 7 hours ago, RomanPer said: Not "are" but "were". It was a known issue within Israeli society and a lot has happened since the 50s to right the wrongs. If we follow your choice of words, there's still slavery in the US today. I know your comparison is not the point....but there is. Check the 13th Amendment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film) edit: this made me go read this having only cursory knowledge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions Edited September 5 by Gnarcore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ilunga said: Dude, I won't. You live in Canada, so Isreal is not your country. Where, in that post did I state Ethiopian Jews are Mizrahi Jews ? I didn't. You brought up black Americans, using them as example. I brought up the example of Ethiopian Jews that are still facing predjudice and discrimination in Israel to this day. Now you are starting to get it, there are predjudices and discrimination in every society, mine included. See, I can admit this. Why can't you admit that Israel has discriminated against parts of its population ? All these different types of Jews, must admit, it does get confusing to an Australian. I spend at least one month every year in Israel. I have dual Israeli and Canadian citizenships. My sister and her family live in Israel permanently. Not even counting cousins, aunts, uncles, friends. Who do you have? Please tell me again Israel is not my country. And try to be taken seriously after all this… As for stating that Ethiopian Jews are Mizrahi Jews - the whole argument started with you saying that Mizrahi Jews ARE being discriminated against in Israel. When I called your bs on this, you brought up an article about Ethiopian Jews. You don’t even know how else to weasel your way into something that resembles logic. The problem is - it resembles logic only to you. Edited September 5 by RomanPer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Retired Major General Yitzhak Brik, also known as the " prophet of wrath " for his predictions about the preparedness of the IDF and the MoD since he retired in 2018, stated a couple of weeks ago " Israel Will Collapse Within a Year if the War of Attrition Against Hamas and Hezbollah Continues " https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-08-22/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-will-collapse-within-a-year-if-the-war-against-hamas-and-hezbollah-continues/00000191-795e-d8d0-a7bb-f9ff81000000 And he backed it up a few days ago " It is Not Hamas That Is Collapsing, But Isreal " https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-09-03/ty-article-opinion/.premium/it-is-not-hamas-that-is-collapsing-but-israel/00000191-b3bf-dffe-abf9-bfffd0a50000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 4 hours ago, Ilunga said: https://www.timesofisrael.com/inequality-between-mizrahi-ashkenazi-jews-to-be-measured-with-new-statistics/ " Among Mizrahi social justice activists, the burueas decision is being celebrated as an important victory, according to Lihi Yona, a university of Haifa scholar who writes about how the lack of governmental recognition of Mizrahi Jews affects their standing in the legal system. " Knowing more accurately where Mizrahi Jews are still facing barriers and discrimination can help activists in knowing where direct resources, and help push the conversation where it needs to be: how to fight discrimination rather than how to proves it exist " Yona said. She said denial of the existence of anti - Mizrahi discrimination is so pervasive that the courts tend to overlook it. " And you stated that Mizrahi Jews support Netanyahu, that is correct, however " But the electoral strength of Mizrahi voters doesn't translate directly into representation in government. A 2021 analysis by non profit newsroom Hashomrim found that Mizrahi Jews are still under represented. For example Ashkenazi Jews have served atop major government ministries at about twice the rate as Mizrahi Jews over the last 20 years. " Cool story, just another activist trying to make a name for herself by using certain group of people for her own assumptions and here you are - picking it up and waving it as a flag of discrimination in Israel. And you are arguing with a person who actually walks the streets in Israel about it. Joke… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I spend at least one month every year in Israel. I have dual Israeli and Canadian citizenships. My sister and her family live in Israel permanently. Not even counting cousins, aunts, uncles, friends. Who do you have? Please tell me again Israel is not my country. And try to be taken seriously after all this… Who do I have ? Roughly about 8.2 billion fellow human beings that I share this planet with. Must get confusing for you, one day you are a Ukrainian, the next an Isreali, the day after a Canadian. It's simple for me, I am a human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 minute ago, RomanPer said: Cool story, just another activist trying to make a name for herself by using certain group of people for her own assumptions and here you are - picking it up and waving it as a flag of discrimination in Israel. And you are arguing with a person who actually walks the streets in Israel about it. Joke… Why do think she is an activist roman ? Her own assumptions ? The discrimination and predjudice that Ethiopian Jews experience in Israel is well documented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 @RomanPer Dated roughly this time last year " Anti - Ethiopian Racism Must be Rooted Out - Editorial " https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-754341 " Despite the fact that many Ethiopians of Jewish descent have succeeded in every sphere they are still a marginalised minority facing discrimination in Isreali society " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 hour ago, RomanPer said: I spend at least one month every year in Israel. I have dual Israeli and Canadian citizenships. My sister and her family live in Israel permanently. Not even counting cousins, aunts, uncles, friends. Who do you have? Please tell me again Israel is not my country. And try to be taken seriously after all this… As for stating that Ethiopian Jews are Mizrahi Jews - the whole argument started with you saying that Mizrahi Jews ARE being discriminated against in Israel. When I called your bs on this, you brought up an article about Ethiopian Jews. You don’t even know how else to weasel your way into something that resembles logic. The problem is - it resembles logic only to you. Dated last year roman " Does Israel still discriminate against Mizrahi Jews " https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-730393 " Discrimination is still happening today ", she said unequivocally. " I have heard so many stories from Mizrahi Jews that were discriminated against in every aspect of life and there is empirical research to show this is in fact the case. " 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 16 hours ago, Ilunga said: Were ? Dated last year roman " Fighting on behalf of Ethiopian Jews " https://www.brandeis.edu/jewish-experience/israel-middle-east/2023/january/ethiopia-israel-mola.html " Mola arrived in Israel in 1984 aged 12, but life in the country hasn't been what she imagined. Ethiopian Jews, in her experience, face mistreatment, discrimination and injustice. Today she is one of the country's leading activists, a board member of the new Israel fund advocating for equality for Israels minorities, and a co founder of mothers on guard, which the Isreali newspaper Haaretz described as the " Black Jewish Wall of mums fighting Israeli police brutality " And yes roman, just like Jews of colour face descrimination in Isreal today, African Americans still face discrimination in the US today. And what nation has 100% perfect race relations? You attempting to single out and cast all of Israeli society as racist is complete garbage. It's the only nation in the world where people of all skin colours are united by culture under one national flag. How does what the experience of Ethiopian Jews in Israel compare to that of Indigenous people in Canada, for example? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ilunga said: Who do I have ? Roughly about 8.2 billion fellow human beings that I share this planet with. Must get confusing for you, one day you are a Ukrainian, the next an Isreali, the day after a Canadian. It's simple for me, I am a human being. Here we are, on our high horse, passing judgement on the others. There's nothing confusing for me, I know who I am. You are the one confused that you speak for 8.2 billion fellow human beings. Edited September 5 by RomanPer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 11 hours ago, Ilunga said: @RomanPer Dated roughly this time last year " Anti - Ethiopian Racism Must be Rooted Out - Editorial " https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-754341 " Despite the fact that many Ethiopians of Jewish descent have succeeded in every sphere they are still a marginalised minority facing discrimination in Isreali society " So, how are Mizrahi Jews discriminated against in Israel these days? And what does any of this have to do with Hamas wanting to kill all the Jews? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 41 minutes ago, Taxi said: And what nation has 100% perfect race relations? You attempting to single out and cast all of Israeli society as racist is complete garbage. It's the only nation in the world where people of all skin colours are united by culture under one national flag. How does what the experience of Ethiopian Jews in Israel compare to that of Indigenous people in Canada, for example? You are trying to use logic with someone who is jumping from topic to topic just to keep talking, pretending to be above everyone else. I guess his shit doesn't stink. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 5 hours ago, Taxi said: And what nation has 100% perfect race relations? You attempting to single out and cast all of Israeli society as racist is complete garbage. It's the only nation in the world where people of all skin colours are united by culture under one national flag. How does what the experience of Ethiopian Jews in Israel compare to that of Indigenous people in Canada, for example? @Canuck Surfer Brought up " race " in regards to Palestinians. Then he asked what's the difference between Hamas and Zionism. I posted the thoughts of some Mizrahi Jew that believe Zionism is/ has been a way for Ashkenazi Jews to persecuted them and other Ethiopian Jews. Their words not mine. How does the experience of the Ethiopian Jews compare to first nations people in Canada ? Well for starters first nations people in Canada where there for thousands of years before the Jews got to what is now called Israel/Palestine. And as many note, their experience is the same in the sense that Zionism is a colonial settler movement. On top of that the Rabbinical councils want to genetically test Jews, to prove their Jewishness. https://en.idi.org.il/articles/26956 It doesn't come much more racist than this. Imagine if it was suggested that the Canadian or Australian government genetically test Canadians or Australians ? There would be an uproar. Israel is the only place where a people of all skin are united by one skin colour under one flag ? Maybe because it's the only country that allows one " ethnicity ", " race ", certain group of people to migrate there. Unlike here in Australia, where we have 270 ethnic groups that make up our population. Every race, creed and religion. Was watching the first round of the finals last night. Just like at any event, the opening ceremony is a first nations person performing a, welcome to country. This is an acknowledgement that this country is theirs. We have evolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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