Hamas attacking Israel

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, grover said:

So is israel a terrorist nation, since they use human shields, indiscriminately bomb and attack civilian shelters they themselves told the Palestinians to migrate to? For attacking hospitals, turning off all water, electricity and gas in Gaza? Chasing people from their homes, and then destroying them? For copying the US detention practices at al graib (spelling)? If israel isn't a terrorist state, then by definition, Hamas isn't.

 

Hezbollah is a widely recognized political party in Lebanon. And yes, they have their own militia.

To be honest.  I think this is a fair question.

 

Hezbollah like Hamas deserved to be stamped out but your summation of them and their existence on the political level is not incorrect and while, you may be asking a hard question I feel it is a valid one given the actual comparisons.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, grover said:

So is israel a terrorist nation, since they use human shields, indiscriminately bomb and attack civilian shelters they themselves told the Palestinians to migrate to? For attacking hospitals, turning off all water, electricity and gas in Gaza? Chasing people from their homes, and then destroying them? For copying the US detention practices at al graib (spelling)? If israel isn't a terrorist state, then by definition, Hamas isn't.

 

Hezbollah is a widely recognized political party in Lebanon. And yes, they have their own militia.

 

I have been in this thread advocating for the Palestinian people since the beginning of this conflict.

I have also pointed out that Israel does some of the same things as Hamas', use Palestinians as human shields, and terrorise Palestinians in the West Bank. 

 

What you are doing is not helping the Palestinian cause.

To deny that Hezbollah and Hamas' are terror groups is ridiculous. 

You are like the people who go to pro Palestinian protests and wave a Hezbollah flag.

This only discredits the rest of us who are advocating for a peaceful resolution to this conflict. 

 

Also you claimed in a previous post that Hamas " maybe killed 

300 - 400 " people on October 7. 

Again this is plain bullshit.

It has been well documented that close to 1200 people were killed, and not only that, sexual violence was committed among other brutal acts. 

Hamas' also took 250 people hostage, not " around 100 " as you claim.

 

Please stop posting.

You are not helping the Palestinian cause.

[grover]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

I have been in this thread advocating for the Palestinian people since the beginning of this conflict.

I have also pointed out that Israel does some of the same things as Hamas', use Palestinians as human shields, and terrorise Palestinians in the West Bank. 

 

What you are doing is not helping the Palestinian cause.

To deny that Hezbollah and Hamas' are terror groups is ridiculous. 

You are like the people who go to pro Palestinian protests and wave a Hezbollah flag.

This only discredits the rest of us who are advocating for a peaceful resolution to this conflict. 

 

Also you claimed in a previous post that Hamas " maybe killed 

300 - 400 " people on October 7. 

Again this is plain bullshit.

It has been well documented that close to 1200 people were killed, and not only that, sexual violence was committed among other brutal acts. 

Hamas' also took 250 people hostage, not " around 100 " as you claim.

 

Please stop posting.

You are not helping the Palestinian cause.

Hey, great to have more advocates for the Palestinians here. Keep it up, but don't sell yourself short.

 

It's not only me who is denying Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups, but a majority of the world. Only some 60 countries have labelled Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups, while 135 countries were against. So if more than 2/3 of the worlds nations disagree with your claims...    How does that work??? Because the US says so? Or Canada?

 

So yeah, what Hamas did on Oct. 7 was some really bad sh!+. No question about it. And yes, my number of dead civilians was a little low, so I'll raise it to about 5-600. But bear with me here. The official number of dead from the Oct. 7 attack is 1,139 (so yeah, close to 1200). But if you take away the roughly 400 israeli soldiers, and then all the people shot by the responding israeli attack helicopters, well the numbers change a bit. (you should check out "the Hannibal Directive", something bibi implemented during the Oct. 7 attack. And then you'll understand why israel doesn't care about the remaining hostages.)

 

Oh, you've found proof of a rape... This was an unknown for me, which was kind of strange considering how much rape (and gang rape) was reported. I just haven't seen any non-israeli confirmation of this. I am far from denying that sexual violence took place, but I've yet to see any first-hand witness accounts of this. So I would love to see who it was, so I can check out there story and know it to be fact. But that still doesn't excuse all the sexual violence committed by israeli soldiers, which is more documented. And do you still believe the "10 decapitated babies story"? I can give you more numbers to check if you want? Number of babies killed : 1; number of dead babies : 2, though the second one died of an emergency C- section. And the baby that was killed, was reportedly through a door. Although I'm a little vague on that one.

 

I've seen lots of video of the idf usinging human shields, but have yet to see one of Hamas doing so. And I've seen a lot of tik-tok videos of Hamas in action. So again, it's much more documented that it's the idf that is using the human shields. But please, with all the phones in Gaza, there has to be at least one video of Hamas using a human shield. But yeah, isreal has won the propaganda/information war hands down, but are really losing the evidence war.

 

 

 

I hope the links work, I really suck at keeping up with technology, so I apologize if they don't. But let me know if they don't work, and I'll have to find some way to prove my claims. That's if you can't find the info yourself. Another good source is electronic intifada, but that will mostly be another Canadian guy showing filmed evidence.

[grover]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

To be honest.  I think this is a fair question.

 

Hezbollah like Hamas deserved to be stamped out but your summation of them and their existence on the political level is not incorrect and while, you may be asking a hard question I feel it is a valid one given the actual comparisons.

I know it sounds like I advocate for Hamas, but I really don't. I just think it's unfair how the west labels them as terrorists, and israel and israeli crimes are given a free pass. There is one thing I like about Hamas, and how they fight for the Palestinian people, and there right to exist. And they do, to some degree, accept a two state solution, although it doesn't recognize the state of israel. So kinda where we are now.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, grover said:

Hey, great to have more advocates for the Palestinians here. Keep it up, but don't sell yourself short.

 

It's not only me who is denying Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups, but a majority of the world. Only some 60 countries have labelled Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups, while 135 countries were against. So if more than 2/3 of the worlds nations disagree with your claims...    How does that work??? Because the US says so? Or Canada?

 

So yeah, what Hamas did on Oct. 7 was some really bad sh!+. No question about it. And yes, my number of dead civilians was a little low, so I'll raise it to about 5-600. But bear with me here. The official number of dead from the Oct. 7 attack is 1,139 (so yeah, close to 1200). But if you take away the roughly 400 israeli soldiers, and then all the people shot by the responding israeli attack helicopters, well the numbers change a bit. (you should check out "the Hannibal Directive", something bibi implemented during the Oct. 7 attack. And then you'll understand why israel doesn't care about the remaining hostages.)

 

Oh, you've found proof of a rape... This was an unknown for me, which was kind of strange considering how much rape (and gang rape) was reported. I just haven't seen any non-israeli confirmation of this. I am far from denying that sexual violence took place, but I've yet to see any first-hand witness accounts of this. So I would love to see who it was, so I can check out there story and know it to be fact. But that still doesn't excuse all the sexual violence committed by israeli soldiers, which is more documented. And do you still believe the "10 decapitated babies story"? I can give you more numbers to check if you want? Number of babies killed : 1; number of dead babies : 2, though the second one died of an emergency C- section. And the baby that was killed, was reportedly through a door. Although I'm a little vague on that one.

 

I've seen lots of video of the idf usinging human shields, but have yet to see one of Hamas doing so. And I've seen a lot of tik-tok videos of Hamas in action. So again, it's much more documented that it's the idf that is using the human shields. But please, with all the phones in Gaza, there has to be at least one video of Hamas using a human shield. But yeah, isreal has won the propaganda/information war hands down, but are really losing the evidence war.

 

 

 

I hope the links work, I really suck at keeping up with technology, so I apologize if they don't. But let me know if they don't work, and I'll have to find some way to prove my claims. That's if you can't find the info yourself. Another good source is electronic intifada, but that will mostly be another Canadian guy showing filmed evidence.

@grover

We had a dog named Grover on one of our trollers. He got washed overboard by a huge wave. 

[Warhippy]

13 minutes ago, grover said:

I know it sounds like I advocate for Hamas, but I really don't. I just think it's unfair how the west labels them as terrorists, and israel and israeli crimes are given a free pass. There is one thing I like about Hamas, and how they fight for the Palestinian people, and there right to exist. And they do, to some degree, accept a two state solution, although it doesn't recognize the state of israel. So kinda where we are now.

Nothing to like about hamas.  Or Hezbollah.  Their removal from the world is a good thing.

 

Just pointing out you have technically sound comparison 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, grover said:

I'm pretty sure the bus bombings and other attacks in israel had little to do with the Oslo Accords.

 

Hamas was formed;

 

1) Because the PLO was softening its position on Israel; see Camp David.

2) Because Hamas wanted control for themselves over the PLO.

3) For their own agenda; which is on record. *

 

* Which includes their own personal corruption.  When they control both the streets and policing, they make black market money on almost every form of goods that moves in & out of Gaza. Plus receive payments, military support from Iran.  But also includes their infamous charter suggesting, Jihad is their mode of operation, and all other religions should sede autonomy to Hamas.  

 

Hamas actively tried to sabotage peace agreements by committing terror attacks.  You can avoid recognizing this. It takes only seconds to Google, or search for conflict with PLO. Some 600 assassinations took place to gain power; amongst those known in only 2 years. Also avoid recognizing Hamas started attacking Israel as soon as it had 'official status.' Made it clear in 2006, just like '93, they did not want a two state solution. Heck; Sinwar's only communications that are essentially public now that he is leader; 'Demand control over the Philadelphi Corridor, Israel to retreat, NO OUTSIDE SOURCES OR ALTERNATE PARTIES TO BE INCLUDED IN ANY PALESTINIAN ADMINISTRATION OTHER THAN HAMAS.' ie: we get to keep power, re-arm & screw everybody else, we're not budging. Did not even mention hostages, except reports via negotiators he wanted 100:1 militants in jail for murder, sabotage & other forms of terrorism. 

 

As for Hezbollah; not terrorists?  Google famous NBA player Steve Kerr's dad. Or Rafiq al-Hariri. They were established to Jihad as their existence.  

 

There has never been a legitimate administration or movement on behalf of Palestinians?  That has had civil control, or support of the general population willing to work with any Jews in Palestine? Which is an absolute tragedy for many / most civilians. Militant groups have sequentially seized power. Their agenda's have continuously been absolute control!

 

Similarly, they were historically cheated back to 1948. I personally believe (just) a portion of issues was being sold out when Jordan was formed. Or even earlier. How did the Hashemite tribe from Northern S Arabia, form a Kingdom as a minority with over 80% of its population Palestinian? Then after, in the period past 'the Nakba,' or 'war of independence,' Egypt seized Gaza & Jordan shortly after to 1950 (?) the West Bank. None of these territories were seeded back to Palestinians by Arabic leaders as they request Israel (and I) do now.  Arabic leaders have been just as territorial, more so (?) than Israel.    

 

I absolutely believe Israel has abused this. While militants run amok, killing each other for (black market) power? Israel has seized territories and done illegal settlements. Ruled over with an overtly heavy hand, iron fist. My opinion, further, is there was too much bunker busters bringing down thousands as the reply to Oct 7. Who has become more tactical since; but some people simply want Israel to leave.

 

As in leave Israel, or call out bloodsport, which many do hating death, as in peace will solve all.  The challenge?  

 

If Israel left Gaza, again, who would stop Sinwar from duplicating Oct 7? 

 

If Israel left Southern lebanon alone?  Which by the way was designated in agreements between Israel / Hezbollah, as a weapons free zone, 20KM deep. Who would stop Hezbollah, who ignored this rule and armed it to the teeth. 

 

Why were you not here decrying just under 9000 missiles launched by Hezbollah from this UN safe zone? Before Israel attacked 2 weeks ago.  Your timing suggests Israel attacked with no impetus. Similarly the over ten thousand missiles launched by Hamas between 2006 & Oct 7. 

 

People play dumb & pretend that Israel is acting unilaterally.

 

If you call yourself a supporter of Palestinians? I challenge you to call for a peaceful Palestinian administration! That will work with others, all regional populations, guarantee them rights, including Israel. Police your own, where necessary ask for help to avoid militants gaining control.

 

Just as Israel should stop their settlement, and other abuses.

 

It will take two sides committed to peace. 

[StrayDog]

1 hour ago, grover said:

 And (hamas) do, to some degree, accept a two state solution, although it doesn't recognize the state of israel. So kinda where we are now.

Did you read this sentence before posting? Hamas accepts a two-state solution but doesn't recognize the state of Israel? Who's the second state, then?

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, grover said:

Hey, great to have more advocates for the Palestinians here. Keep it up, but don't sell yourself short.

 

It's not only me who is denying Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups, but a majority of the world. Only some 60 countries have labelled Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups, while 135 countries were against. So if more than 2/3 of the worlds nations disagree with your claims...    How does that work??? Because the US says so? Or Canada?

 

So yeah, what Hamas did on Oct. 7 was some really bad sh!+. No question about it. And yes, my number of dead civilians was a little low, so I'll raise it to about 5-600. But bear with me here. The official number of dead from the Oct. 7 attack is 1,139 (so yeah, close to 1200). But if you take away the roughly 400 israeli soldiers, and then all the people shot by the responding israeli attack helicopters, well the numbers change a bit. (you should check out "the Hannibal Directive", something bibi implemented during the Oct. 7 attack. And then you'll understand why israel doesn't care about the remaining hostages.)

 

Oh, you've found proof of a rape... This was an unknown for me, which was kind of strange considering how much rape (and gang rape) was reported. I just haven't seen any non-israeli confirmation of this. I am far from denying that sexual violence took place, but I've yet to see any first-hand witness accounts of this. So I would love to see who it was, so I can check out there story and know it to be fact. But that still doesn't excuse all the sexual violence committed by israeli soldiers, which is more documented. And do you still believe the "10 decapitated babies story"? I can give you more numbers to check if you want? Number of babies killed : 1; number of dead babies : 2, though the second one died of an emergency C- section. And the baby that was killed, was reportedly through a door. Although I'm a little vague on that one.

 

I've seen lots of video of the idf usinging human shields, but have yet to see one of Hamas doing so. And I've seen a lot of tik-tok videos of Hamas in action. So again, it's much more documented that it's the idf that is using the human shields. But please, with all the phones in Gaza, there has to be at least one video of Hamas using a human shield. But yeah, isreal has won the propaganda/information war hands down, but are really losing the evidence war.

 

 

 

I hope the links work, I really suck at keeping up with technology, so I apologize if they don't. But let me know if they don't work, and I'll have to find some way to prove my claims. That's if you can't find the info yourself. Another good source is electronic intifada, but that will mostly be another Canadian guy showing filmed evidence.

 

No apologies for Oct 7 please. Or suggestions it was overstated! 

 

Unacceptable.

 

There will be, and are, plenty of ways to protest Israeli actions that are acceptable. Efforts that reign actual Israeli issues. We can discuss those if you like?

 

Below I will re post the same video as yesterday. Amongst disappointing comments by Hamas this week are calling Oct 7 a ''tactical achievement!''

 

Cue 3 minutes & 40 seconds.

 

 

[SilentSam]

 

[Alflives]

Just now, SilentSam said:

 

It’s (almost) funny how these bastards keep getting knocked off. It’s like that game “Whack a Mole” t except the  player with the mallet doesn’t miss. 
Whack them all! 

[Warhippy]

27 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

 

This bothers me.

 

They know EXACTLY where these people are and this is exactly what i said before.  They spent months flattening Gaza and Palestinian homes.  Are now annexing that and and the ENTIRE time they most likely knew exactly where those leaders and organizers were hiding the entire time.

 

They can all of a sudden find these people in a hole in the ground under a building without issue but couldn't 7 months ago?

 

Israel has one of the best lead intelligence services in the world and the entire bombing campaign seemed insanely heavy for knowing they are capable of surgical strikes at any time

[flat land fish]

22 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

This bothers me.

 

They know EXACTLY where these people are and this is exactly what i said before.  They spent months flattening Gaza and Palestinian homes.  Are now annexing that and and the ENTIRE time they most likely knew exactly where those leaders and organizers were hiding the entire time.

 

They can all of a sudden find these people in a hole in the ground under a building without issue but couldn't 7 months ago?

 

Israel has one of the best lead intelligence services in the world and the entire bombing campaign seemed insanely heavy for knowing they are capable of surgical strikes at any time

That's the thing with all of the current conflicts people choose sides over who's the most righteous but the reality is its as simple as ...... just not killing each other...... until people all over the world stop looking at others as disposable the current nonsense continues 

[Bell]

These conflicts eventually end in negotiations, so why not cut out the violence part and get negotiating

[DeNiro]

7 minutes ago, Bell said:

These conflicts eventually end in negotiations, so why not cut out the violence part and get negotiating

One side usually has to lose all their leverage to be forced to the table.

 

Something tells me this won’t end in negotiations. Israel seems determined to take out every last one of them.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, grover said:

Hey, great to have more advocates for the Palestinians here. Keep it up, but don't sell yourself short.

 

It's not only me who is denying Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups, but a majority of the world. Only some 60 countries have labelled Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups, while 135 countries were against. So if more than 2/3 of the worlds nations disagree with your claims...    How does that work??? Because the US says so? Or Canada?

 

So yeah, what Hamas did on Oct. 7 was some really bad sh!+. No question about it. And yes, my number of dead civilians was a little low, so I'll raise it to about 5-600. But bear with me here. The official number of dead from the Oct. 7 attack is 1,139 (so yeah, close to 1200). But if you take away the roughly 400 israeli soldiers, and then all the people shot by the responding israeli attack helicopters, well the numbers change a bit. (you should check out "the Hannibal Directive", something bibi implemented during the Oct. 7 attack. And then you'll understand why israel doesn't care about the remaining hostages.)

 

Oh, you've found proof of a rape... This was an unknown for me, which was kind of strange considering how much rape (and gang rape) was reported. I just haven't seen any non-israeli confirmation of this. I am far from denying that sexual violence took place, but I've yet to see any first-hand witness accounts of this. So I would love to see who it was, so I can check out there story and know it to be fact. But that still doesn't excuse all the sexual violence committed by israeli soldiers, which is more documented. And do you still believe the "10 decapitated babies story"? I can give you more numbers to check if you want? Number of babies killed : 1; number of dead babies : 2, though the second one died of an emergency C- section. And the baby that was killed, was reportedly through a door. Although I'm a little vague on that one.

 

I've seen lots of video of the idf usinging human shields, but have yet to see one of Hamas doing so. And I've seen a lot of tik-tok videos of Hamas in action. So again, it's much more documented that it's the idf that is using the human shields. But please, with all the phones in Gaza, there has to be at least one video of Hamas using a human shield. But yeah, isreal has won the propaganda/information war hands down, but are really losing the evidence war.

 

 

 

I hope the links work, I really suck at keeping up with technology, so I apologize if they don't. But let me know if they don't work, and I'll have to find some way to prove my claims. That's if you can't find the info yourself. Another good source is electronic intifada, but that will mostly be another Canadian guy showing filmed evidence.

 

Look mate, I don't really care who declares that Hamas' and Hezbollah are Terrorist organisations.

I think critically.

It's their actions that make them terror organisations, not nation states declaring them as such. 

 

I am well known for not using " social media " as my source of news/information.

I use trusted media organisations that are vetted by Media Bias 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/

 

I have continually advocated for using peaceful means to end not just this particular phase of the conflict, this never ending conflict full stop.

That is fueled by continued acts of violence by both sides.  

 

Hamas' is hiding in and amongst the civilian population.

This constitutes using " ordinary " Palestinians as human shields.

 

I have already posted evidence of Isreali soldiers using Palestinians as human shields, from Isreali sources. 

 

Denying what we know has happened in regards to what Hamas has done, and what they are, is not helping the Palestinian cause. 

 

If you really want peace, do what I have done over the past year.

Post videos and articles about Palestinians and Isrealis working together for peace.

Helping each other. 

 

Defending terrorists is not supporting the Palestinian people. 

 

And don't get me wrong, Isreal has a lot to answer for. 

At the very least history will damn some of their actions, the death of so many women and children.

The largest cohort of child amputees in history.

The amount of destruction, and the suffering millions of people of Gaza have endured for the last year.

Just as it will damn Hamas' and anyone who uses violence against others to promote their beliefs/agenda.

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Warhippy said:

This bothers me.

 

Hezbollah could have chimed in and encouraged release of hostages Oct 8? Condemned terrorism & militant action. Not joined it.

 

Instead of launching wave after wave of missiles into Israel. 

 

However, I get your point. Sorta... I don't believe Israel had intell about a large majority of buildings that were levelled Oct through, aprox., January? The amount of collateral damage was, and is overwhelming. Its my observation the sheer number of buildings being levelled slowed significantly as protests around the world built up steam. The calls that war crimes ocurred, I believe is very real. The IDF had to be more tactical about its targets. Also disgusting is aid workers and press who were not just killed. It seems they were targeted? There have further been historical crimes like settler abuse, rampages. 

 

I'll spare debate about schools and hospitals for a different day.

 

That said, Gaza was closed, the only way in a tunnel, versus an open border like Lebanon. At least since Oct 7? Hamas also owning absolute, by violence where necessary, street control not possible in Lebanon. Hamas having ethnically cleansed, or forced conversion / expulsion if you wish a more liberal term?  All but 2 to 3 % of their population! A 98% majority. You have to be deeply imbedded to be an operative. Sunni Muslim make up just less than 32% in Lebanon by comparison. Plus 300,000 to 800,000 depending who you talk to, illegal aliens which include Syrians but primarily Palestinians & other Arabic wanderers. Who are often called 'refugee's' by many; regardless are not accepted as citizens, cannot own property, have rights to religion, civil welfare. Which is left to the UN. A large percentage of which are, regardless how real their refugee claim, are militants; who have fought not only against Israel. More in Iraq, Syria, historically in Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait. The sheer volume of militants, not calling them terrorists FTM, even if they just visit, or spread? Hezbollah dealings in black markets & conflicts includes all the tracts of Isis, ISIL, Al Qaeda, Kurds, Turks, has open relations with most ME nations. Infiltration is undoubtedly easier.

 

I heavily suspect the widely complained about, by Israel, UN support systems like UNRWA (also in Lebanon) is also the biggest Mossad entry point? Just an educated guess, not fact. All these groups are in Lebanon, and have their hand out! See opportunity to export their story, reach political and media markets. Inclusion of 'locals' being employed by the UN is both policy, designed to be positive, and also widespread. It will have been almost as heavily infiltrated by Israel as Jihadists.

 

Following free money is the first place to track corruption. Every refugee had a story, spies will have been just as, if not more willing to listen... 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

Much better than you might expect, I might anyway, report by Fox?

 

 

[grover]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

No apologies for Oct 7 please. Or suggestions it was overstated! 

 

Unacceptable.

 

There will be, and are, plenty of ways to protest Israeli actions that are acceptable. Efforts that reign actual Israeli issues. We can discuss those if you like?

 

Below I will re post the same video as yesterday. Amongst disappointing comments by Hamas this week are calling Oct 7 a ''tactical achievement!''

 

Cue 3 minutes & 40 seconds.

 

 

Hmmm, where to go from here...

 

I see that you have acknowledged how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians, and how they continue to do so. But my interpretation of this acknowledgement, is that Israel has the full right to do this (cart blanche, if you will?) due to the incessant attacks on Israel by the Palestinians? Is my interpretation correct?

Almost feel like I should stop here, so that you might answer my question, but...

 

I don't know why you think I like this war, and how you haven't seen my feeble cry for peace in the region. My only guess is that you saw that I said I was fine with being labelled a supporter of terrorism, which you have taken to heart? Well, just because you label me a supporter of terrorism doesn't make it so. You don't know me, my beliefs, religious background, or the colour of my skin for that matter! Of course, like I just said, this is a vague guess on my part (me supporting this war). And if there is any truth to bibi's words, this war will not end until Israel has destroyed both Hamas and Hezbollah. Then the question in my head is, are Hamas and Hezbollah groups? Or ideologies? And if ideologies, how do you destroy an ideology? Brings to mind the US' wars on terror and drugs. Still ongoing after how many years?

 

No, I am a staunch pacifist and want nothing more than all wars to end. Unfortunately, the only way I can see lasting peace in West Asia is with a two state solution, and that won't happen in my lifetime. I am convinced, that if the state of Palestine already was, then October 7th would never have happened. If Palestine was a sovereign nation, there wouldn't have been a need to attack Israel. And then Hezbollah wouldn't have begun to launch rockets into Israel...

 

As I said earlier, in Hamas' 2017 revised charter, they claim to accept the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but without recognizing the statehood of Israel. Israel was alive and kicking in 1967, so it would still be there if the two state solution was adopted, just not recognized by Hamas. Of course, if there was a two state solution, there would be much less (if any) demand for Hamas, so maybe the PA or another party comes to power, and they recognize the Israeli state for the same reason Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005? But Allah knows, war is BIG money! Heck, Russia is reviving its economy with military spending as we speak.

 

Did I meet your challenge to call for a peaceful Palestinian administration?

[grover]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Look mate, I don't really care who declares that Hamas' and Hezbollah are Terrorist organisations.

I think critically.

It's their actions that make them terror organisations, not nation states declaring them as such. 

 

I am well known for not using " social media " as my source of news/information.

I use trusted media organisations that are vetted by Media Bias 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/

 

I have continually advocated for using peaceful means to end not just this particular phase of the conflict, this never ending conflict full stop.

That is fueled by continued acts of violence by both sides.  

 

Hamas' is hiding in and amongst the civilian population.

This constitutes using " ordinary " Palestinians as human shields.

 

I have already posted evidence of Isreali soldiers using Palestinians as human shields, from Isreali sources. 

 

Denying what we know has happened in regards to what Hamas has done, and what they are, is not helping the Palestinian cause. 

 

If you really want peace, do what I have done over the past year.

Post videos and articles about Palestinians and Isrealis working together for peace.

Helping each other. 

 

Defending terrorists is not supporting the Palestinian people. 

 

And don't get me wrong, Isreal has a lot to answer for. 

At the very least history will damn some of their actions, the death of so many women and children.

The largest cohort of child amputees in history.

The amount of destruction, and the suffering millions of people of Gaza have endured for the last year.

Just as it will damn Hamas' and anyone who uses violence against others to promote their beliefs/agenda.

 

 

 

Ok, I have a really poor memory, and limited time. So please show where I have defended terrorists or terrorism. You say that you think critically, but when I say that more than 2/3 of the worlds countries have not labelled Hamas or Hezbollah as terrorist organizations, that does not invoke your critical thinking...??? Ahh, you mean selective critical thinking. Now I'm on board.

 

Do Israeli actions make them terrorists by definition?

 

And yeah, the closest thing to a social media account I have is messenger, which I don't use! So cheers to that.

 

Unfortunately, You will not be able to convince me that an American scholar gives unbiased evaluations. I'm not saying they are biased, just that nothing suggests they are completely unbiased. Red Flag for me is their advertising of their being unbiased. But just ask my wife, I'm known to be wrong A LOT!

 

As for Hamas hiding among the civilians of Gaza, Gaza is almost twice the size of Salt Spring Island, but with almost 2.2 million people living there. And you're suggesting Hamas chooses to hide among the civilian population... OK, I'll agree with you there.

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, grover said:

But my interpretation of this acknowledgement, is that Israel has the full right to do this (cart blanche, if you will?) due to the incessant attacks on Israel by the Palestinians? Is my interpretation correct?

 

No.

 

Not a very intuitive reply either as a whole. Or value to the discussion.   

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, grover said:

Ok, I have a really poor memory, and limited time. So please show where I have defended terrorists or terrorism. You say that you think critically, but when I say that more than 2/3 of the worlds countries have not labelled Hamas or Hezbollah as terrorist organizations, that does not invoke your critical thinking...??? Ahh, you mean selective critical thinking. Now I'm on board.

 

Do Israeli actions make them terrorists by definition?

 

And yeah, the closest thing to a social media account I have is messenger, which I don't use! So cheers to that.

 

Unfortunately, You will not be able to convince me that an American scholar gives unbiased evaluations. I'm not saying they are biased, just that nothing suggests they are completely unbiased. Red Flag for me is their advertising of their being unbiased. But just ask my wife, I'm known to be wrong A LOT!

 

As for Hamas hiding among the civilians of Gaza, Gaza is almost twice the size of Salt Spring Island, but with almost 2.2 million people living there. And you're suggesting Hamas chooses to hide among the civilian population... OK, I'll agree with you there.

 

11 hours ago, grover said:

I know it sounds like I advocate for Hamas, but I really don't. I just think it's unfair how the west labels them as terrorists, and israel and israeli crimes are given a free pass. There is one thing I like about Hamas, and how they fight for the Palestinian people, and there right to exist. And they do, to some degree, accept a two state solution, although it doesn't recognize the state of israel. So kinda where we are now.

 

" There is one thing I like about Hamas, and how they fight for the Palestinian people, and there(their) right to exist. "

 

You have stated that you like Hamas'.

 

Let alone what they did on October 7, you are aware of their suicide attacks in the past, amongst other acts of terror.

Or don't you believe a suicide attack is an act of terror ? 

 

You asked me to check out Tik Tok as a source of information, that is a form of social media.

 

And yes I believe, and have posted articles, from Israeli sources, where the current head of the Shin Bet, Isreali security service, states there is Jewish Terrorist problem in the West Bank. 

I also don't like how Isreal is given a free pass for things other nations would not be.

As others have pointed out, the " west " has holocaust guilt, and the guilt of hundreds of years of persecuting the Jews. 

The Palestinians are paying the price for this guilt.

 

You talk about trusting an American scholar, would you trust an American Jewish Scholar like Noam Chomsky who is a vocal critic of the state of Isreal ? 

 

 

Anyway facts are facts mate.

As I stated, I get my news/information from reputable sources that have been fact checked and have a high credibility rating.

I usually provide a couple of sources to back up my assertions.

 

Stop supporting the terror groups Hamas' and Hezbollah and promote peaceful means, not violence as a way of bringing and end to this circle of hatred.

[Bell]

9 hours ago, DeNiro said:

One side usually has to lose all their leverage to be forced to the table.

 

Something tells me this won’t end in negotiations. Israel seems determined to take out every last one of them.

Unfortunately I think you are correct Deniro.  They seem intent on utter destruction

[SilentSam]

10 hours ago, DeNiro said:

One side usually has to lose all their leverage to be forced to the table.

 

Something tells me this won’t end in negotiations. Israel seems determined to take out every last one of them.

 

1 hour ago, Bell said:

Unfortunately I think you are correct Deniro.  They seem intent on utter destruction

 

There is no trust left for negotiations   .. and  it can not be expected.

 

 

[SilentSam]